Lords Sitting of 25 November 1931

Preamble
The House met at; a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
VISCOUNT SNOWDEN.
The Rt. Hon. Philip Snowden, having been created Viscount Snowden, of Ickornshaw in the West Riding of the County of York—Was (in the usual manner) introduced
LORD TRENT.
John Campbell, Baron Trent, of Nottingham in the County of Nottingham—Was (in the usual manner) introduced by virtue of a Patent dated the 18th day of March, 1929, his father, Sir Jessie Boot, Baronet, who was created a Baron under tie said Patent, never having taken his seat.
STATUTE OF WESTMINSTER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; aid to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONBY or SHULBREDE: My Lords, perhaps the Leader of the louse will tell us if there is any alteration in the business for this week, and what he expects will be the business next week.
THE SECRETARY of STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, tie first Bill which I want to get through—I do not think it will take more than a few moments—is the Expiring Laws Bill. If the Statute of Westminster becomes law it is important that the Expiring Laws Bill should receive the Royal Assent before the Statute of Westminster, otherwise one of the laws in the Expiring Laws Bill might be affected by tie Statute. I therefore propose to ask your Lordships to pass the Expiring Laws Bill through all its stages to-morrow. I shall put down a Motion for that purpose. We shall then take the Second Reading of the Statute of Westminster Bill, and in that event I would suggest that, if
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convenient to the House, we should take the Committee, stage on the following Tuesday, which I think would give time for all necessary business. Beyond that I am afraid I cannot say what will be the business on Wednesday or Thursday of that week, because I do not quite know what is coming up from another place. There is, I think, still some legislation to come before your Lordships, but I do not anticipate very much of importance during the rest of these sittings. I am told that there may be three or four small Bills, but I do not think anything substantial. On Wednesday, of course, Motions take precedence. There are several down and I do not propose to interfere with them.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I understand that the Statute of Westminster Bill has to be through all its stages before December 1. May I ask whether it is necessary, under the programme laid before us, to have three Royal Commissions before these sittings terminate?
VISSCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am afraid that the answer to that last question is "Yes": one on Monday to dispose of the Expiring Laws Bill; one as soon as the Statute of Westminster Bill has passed your Lordships' House, assuming that it does pass; and one at the end of the sittings to give the Royal Assent to any Bills which are outstanding. As to the other question, the date which the Statute of Westminster Bill incorporates as being its effective date is December 2, and it was desired to get it through by that date, but if unfortunately we cannot get it through before December 3 I do not think that very much matters except from the technical point of view, and I would rather be a day later than rush an important Bill, which I know many noble Lords wish to discuss.

IMPERIAL ECONOMIC CONFERENCE.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK VISCOUNT ELIBANK had given Notice that he would move, That this House welcomes the announcement made by the Prime Minister that His Majesty's Government has accepted the invitation of the Prime Minister of Canada to take part in an Imperial Economic Conference to be held in Ottawa next year,

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but is of the opinion that the stress of economic conditions throughout the Empire demands that such Conference takes place at the earliest possible date; further, this House expresses its satisfaction that under the mandate recently given at the General Election His Majesty's Government will at that Conference have a free I and to consider and to employ any methods or plans best calculated to promote the cause and early fruition of the economic unity of the Empire.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, it is with a deep sense of responsibility that I move the Motion that stands in ms. name. Nobody realises more than I realise the importance at this time of not uttering any word or taking any action which might embarrass the Government in the great and onerous task which was entrusted to them by the nation at the recent General Election, and I will try to approach my subject in that spirit and not transgress the maxim which I have laid down for myself. At the same time, it is the case that the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House, in a recent speech in this House, indicated that he would have no objection to hearing views from the members of your Lordships' House, and that he would endeavour, so far as possible, to apply those views to the problems with which the Government have to deal. Without the expression of views from their supporters in this House and outside it the Government are unable to know what is passing in their minds, and, after all, it is the essence of democratic government that views should be expressed.
One of the most important matters which His Majesty's Government will have to deal with during their term of office is the promotion of closer trade relationships between the Dominions and Colonies and this country. In the past Imperial Conferences have sat, but have reached no solution because they have been tied by a fiscal system which prevented them from considering all these matters from a purely business point of view; but all that has changed, and recently a Government has been returned to power with a full mandate and a free hand to take any action which Ministers may think best for the purpose of achieving fruitful results, and to deal with those matters from any angle which may
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end in success. It is a gratifying thing that the Conference is to be held under such favourable auspices, and to one who, like myself, has during many years fought for this cause of Empire economic unity, it gives the greatest satisfaction.
The principal objects with which I am moving my Motion to-day are, first of all, to congratulate Mr. Bennett, the Prime Minister of Canada, on the invitation which he has extended to the Empire to hold an Imperial Conference at Ottawa next year; and, secondly, to congratulate, if I may be permitted to do so, our own Prime Minister on having accepted that invitation without any delay at all. I further wish to go on to deal with the procedure which will have to be followed at the Conference when it takes place, and I want to press upon His Majesty's Government the great importance of making public as soon as possible the principles which will govern that Conference and the preliminaries of it. I will also outline, with your Lordships' permission, certain ideas as to how that procedure should be carried out.
I wish, as I said, to thank Mr. Bennett—and I am sure your Lordships will agree with this—for having extended this invitation to hold the Conference in Ottawa next year. In my opinion Canada is peculiarly fitted to be the centre for such a Conference, owing to her size, her importance, and her situation in the Empire. Moreover, it is not the first time that a Conference of this kind has been held in Ottawa. The first Colonial Conference was held in 1884 in London, but the second Colonial Conference was held in Ottawa in 1894; and it may interest your Lordships to know that at that Conference there were representatives of the United Kingdom, of Canada, of all the six Australian States, and of Cape Colony as representing that part of South Africa which was self-governing in those days. That Conference was very successful, because I find that at it very important resolutions were passed. One resolution was passed urging the removal of legislative or Treaty obstacles to preferential tariff treatment. Another resolution was passed for the establishment of a mail service between Great Britain and Australasia, via Canada; and a third resolution was passed to lay a cable connecting Canada and Australasia. The

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last two resolutions have since been brought into effect. As regards the first one, that has been brought very largely into effect in the Dominions, and into very minor effect in this country.
Canada is particularly fitted to be the centre of this Conference, because a Conference held in that centre will be less hampered by the old ideas and traditions and customs which we find in London. It will take place in an atmosphere which is bracing and vigorous, the atmosphere of those who want to get on with the job. And I believe that this Conference, dealing, as it will, with many matters, not only of trade, but of currency and exchange, and even questions of War Debt settlement, might be approached and treated in a more practical manner if these questions were considered in the atmosphere which you will find in a place like Canada. So I venture to hope that His Majesty's Government will declare very shortly where this Conference is to be held. Naturally, they will have to consult the other Dominions, but I hope that a declaration will be made very shortly where the Conference is to be held and that this declaration will decide that Ottawa shall be the centre.
Now I wish to pass to the question of procedure. In order to do so I must traverse to some extent the occurrencies of the past years and also the results. For thirty years the Dominions have been granting us Preferences voluntarily on their manufactured goods until, in spite of their comparatively small population, the trade per head with the Dominions is very much larger relatively than the trade per head with any European nation. I find on looking at the statistics that the trade per head of population with New Zealand is £14 11 s. per annum, whilst with Germany it is only 11 s. 6d. per annum. I find, again, with Canada that the trade per head is £3 12 s. per annum, whilst with France it is only 15.s. 5d. per annum. I ought to say that the Dominions have sold more to us than we have sent to them, but they have sold to us relatively very much less than foreign countries who have given us no Preferences at all. The actual figures for 1930 show that from the Empire we have imports of £304,000,000, whilst the exports are £248,000,000, or a difference of only £54,000,000 against us, whereas in the case of foreign countries
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the imports are £741,000,000 and the exports £322,000,000, showing a deficit balance of over £400,000,000 per annum. In simple words it can be expressed in this way: For every 20 s. worth of goods we buy from the Empire we sell them 16 s. 6d. worth of goods, whilst in the case of foreign countries, for every 20 s. worth we buy from them we sell in return only 9s. worth. The results I have just indicated are due to Preferences which have been voluntarily, freely and generously given by the Dominions to ourselves without any appreciable reciprocal return on our part.
With that example before us, I venture to submit that the best way to commence negotiations with the Dominions for trade agreements is to put ourselves on the same level as the Dominions and to grant them, as a first step, voluntarily and of our own free will and without any negotiations, a comprehensive measure of Preference at the earliest possible date. If we do that we can start negotiating subsequently with the Dominions from the same plane as that from which they themselves will be negotiating with us. We can then subsequently at the Imperial Economic Conference consider with them how those Preferences may be increased on all sides to the advantage of all sides, and the Conference can also decide whether the agreements shall be trade agreements of a bilateral nature, whether they shall be written agreements, or whether they shall be only verbal agreements incorporated in the tariff legislation of the different Dominions and of this country. I advocate that, as a first step, the Government will adopt that procedure. If that procedure is adopted I believe that the psychological effect of it on the Dominions will be immense, and I venture to predict that the atmosphere created by such action on the part of the Mother Country will be such as to produce the most emphatic and generous response on the part of the Dominions. I am sure also that we should have no reason to regret the gesture made by us.
Your Lordships will ask me how this procedure is to be carried out. You will say that at the moment there is no tariff upon which to graft it. In the Abnormal Importations (Customs Duties) Act, which passed another place and passed through your Lordships' House only last

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week, we have the beginning of such a policy, because in that Act there was embodied freely and voluntarily without any demand or quid pro quo for the action, a lull measure of Empire Preference in so far as that under that Act all Empire goods can be admitted free of duty. Following upon that Act I feel certain that in order to balance the Budget for next year in any case, but certainly in order to restore the balance of trade, it will be absolutely necessary, as soon as it possibly can be arranged, to pass a comprehensive and scientific tariff for manufactured goods and agricultural produce in this country. In that tariff can be embodied this measure of voluntary Preference to the Dominions and to the Colonies which will give us that start in our negotiations and enable us to move a long way along the lines of Empire economic unity.
It is perfectly obvious to-day that a tariff with agricultural produce included in it is an absolute certainty. We cannot do without it. Day after day we have heard in this House noble Lords on this side expressing their views and telling us of the parlous condition of agriculture, and how necessary it is to go forward immediately and to take some protective action in connection with it. When we come to the Dominions, those of us who have studied the subject, and even those who have not had the same sympathy with it in the past as perhaps they have in the present, know that it is necessary, if we are to give proper and remunerative Preferences so far as the Dominions are concerned, to give them those Preferences through their primary agricultural products. So I venture to submit to His Majesty's Government, and to emphasise my submission, that the procedure to be followed by His Majesty's Government should be the early passage of a scientific tariff with a full voluntary measure of Imperial Preferences. This should be followed by the Imperial Economic Conference at which trade agreements, bilateral or otherwise, written and verbal, should be negotiated with the object of adjusting the Preferences on all sides. Lastly, I again wish to ask the noble Lord who will reply on behalf of the Government to-day, to declare as soon as possible the principles upon which that Conference is to be held and the measures which the Government
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propose to take preparatory to that Conference in order that that Conference shall have the success which we all desire it to have.
That brings me to another point referred to in my Motion—namely, that the Conference should be held at the earliest possible date. Under the procedure which I have outlined it is perfectly obvious that it would not be possible to hold that Conference in February or in March, because, until the scientific tariff is passed and a voluntary measure of Preference is included in it, it will not be expedient or useful for the Dominions or for the Empire to come together in a Conference in order to continue the further negotiations following upon that procedure. I do not suggest that, because it may in the end be found necessary not to hold that Conference until May or June, there should be no preparation for the Conference itself. With all the subjects which have to be dealt with, such as our trade relationships, exchange, currency, War Debts, and so on, an enormous amount of intensive preparation will be required in order to get ready for that Conference. I urge upon the Government to take those steps as early as possible. Mr. Bennett, the Prime Minister of Canada, is at this moment in this country and it is therefore possible to consult with him and to take such measures as we can with him to make those early preparations.
I urge upon the Government the absolute necessity to act as quickly and effectively as possible and to do all they can to press forward this matter. There are several Dominions, like Australia and South Africa, even Canada itself, which are in a most difficult position to-day. They have large exports over and above their home trade. There are foreign countries in different parts of the world all eager to obtain greater trade with those Dominions. The Governments of those Dominions have responsibilities to their people just as His Majesty's Government are responsible to the people of this country to secure their trade. I hope, therefore, we shall not overlook those factors, which make it so urgent to call together this Conference as soon as possible and to get the preparations in action as quickly as possible too.
We are standing on the threshold of a new era. That new era can be made or marred by the success or failure of this Imperial Conference. No British Government has before this entered an Imperial Conference so unhampered or in such a position to produce fruitful results, and the country will expect the Government to use the instrument it has placed in its hands and to deliver the goods. This is the most fateful Conference that will ever take place. This is the greatest chance the Empire has over had. For the first time in history in this country the people have by an overwhelming majority declared themselves in favour of the economic unity of the Empire and have given the Government an absolutely free hand to effect it. This is a glorious moment. No Prime Minister has ever had such an opportunity as this Prime Minister. The people are looking to him to take it and are eagerly awaiting the materialisation of their hopes. If we fail this time, we shall fail, I fear, for ever and we shall fink back into disillusionments, disagreements, disappointments, and possibly even disintegration. If we succeed, it is not only economic unity that we shall achieve. All the matters that have ever divided us will all the more easily be dealt with, not only mutual trade, but mutual defence and mutual co-operation for the peace of the world. All will fit into the great scheme for a truly united Empire and then Great Britain and her Dominions will stand for ever, four square to all the winds that blow.
Moved, That this House welcomes the announcement made by the Prime Minister that His Majesty's Government has accepted the invitation of the Prime Minister of Canada to take part in an Imperial Economic Conference to held in Ottawa next year, but is of the opinion that the stress of economic conditions throughout the Empire demands that such Conference takes place at the earliest possible date; further, this House expresses its satisfaction that under the mandate recently given at the General Election His Majesty's Government will at that Conference have a free hand to consider and to employ any methods or plans best calculated to promote the cause and early fruition of the economic unity of the. Empire.—(Viscount Elibank.)
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I have listened with great interest to the speech of the noble Viscount who has put this Motion on the Paper. He speaks as one who seems to be in measurable distance of the promised land and he repeats to your Lordships once more arguments which seem to echo in this House from time to time. I do not want to follow him into the very rosy picture that he paints of the prospects as he sees them. He tells us that there is going to be a scientific tariff passed through in February, that subsequently the Dominions are all going to comply with the views he holds, and that all is going to run smoothly. I was rather surprised that he emphasised the need of the Imperial Economic Conference meeting in Ottawa, as he deems it to be one of considerable importance, and I certainly should have thought that London would have been a more suitable place. Perhaps the noble Lord who will reply for the Government will be able to tell us whether Ottawa is still to be the place for the Conference and whether other Dominions, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, and the Irish Free State have not expressed a preference for London as a better place for such an important meeting.
I want to raise, however, the further question of the tour of the Secretary of State; for the Dominions and to ask whether that tour is still contemplated, and what exactly the object of that tour is to be. Everybody knows that Mr. Thomas is an exceedingly popular figure, and his entertainment in the Dominions is assured, but in these days of stringency I do not think the Government ought to go to the expense of an entertainer doing a world tour. He has really nothing to gain by it. He can ascertain the views of the Dominions from London by close study and by the careful preparation which the noble Viscount has most properly laid stress upon, but that we should be put to the expense of a Secretary of State touring round the Dominions for no particular purpose seems to me to be objectionable in the present circumstances. One of the matters that has arisen in connection with Dominion affairs has been the question of immigration, and it is on that point that I should like to make just a few remarks.

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Mr. Thomas, in the House of Commons, on November 17, said in reply to a question:
"In view of existing economic conditions, migration to the Dominions is not being encouraged at the present time, and the assisted passage schemes for migrants from this country are in abeyance apart from exceptional cases involving the reunion of families. Migrants from this country who pay their own way are admitted to all the Dominions if they can comply with the Immigration Regulations; that is, provided that they are of good health and character and are not likely to become a public charge."
In further supplementary answers he showed that so far as immigration to the Dominions was concerned there really was nothing doing. Rather more than a year ago, when I was Under-Secretary of State for the Dominions, my noble friend Lord Mersey raised the question of immigration in your Lordships' House, and even then I gave very much the same reply that Mr. Thomas gave last week. For economic reasons there is no possibility of a flow of emigrants from this country into the Dominions at the present time.
What I want to ask the noble Lord who is in charge of this question is this. I studied very carefully the economies that were being made with regard to the Civil Service. I for one very much regretted the cuts in civil servants' salaries. We have a Civil Service of unparalleled efficiency, and we really underpay them at the best of times, to my mind, considering the enormous prizes that are offered in the commercial world outside, and, because we have our hand on them, we make them suffer first when economies are suggested. But however that may be, no one wants to defend activities in Government Departments which are fruitless. I do not know if your Lordships are fully aware that the Oversea Settlement Department is a separate Department altogether from the Dominion Office. It has a separate establishment in Tothill Street, where there is an expensive rent to be paid. It has a very large staff, and, worst of all, it has highly experienced and very able officials locked up there in work which is absolutely fruitless, and acknowledged to be so for a year past.
Surely, if economy was to be practised in the Civil Service, here was an opportunity for cutting down a branch of a
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Department. It could quite easily have been done. There are three sections of it. There is the financial section, which is really dominated by the Treasury and the work of which could be done by the Treasury exclusively. There is the Dominion negotiation section, which is really part of the original work of the Dominions office; and, thirdly, there is the Ministry of Labour section. I do not know what the latter may do now, but what it did in my time did not amount to very much. At that time, however, there were training centres up and down the country and shops being opened to encourage migrants, and these came under the Ministry of Labour. It would be perfectly easy for those three Departments to take over what was necessary of the very attenuated work that now exists, and for these premises to be given up, and for there to be a saving of some thousands of pounds a year—I think it would amount to that—if this were done.
I am very doubtful whether at the very best of times State control and State support of emigration is really of very much use. There are thirty voluntary societies and institutions which are engaged in promoting and encouraging emigration, and they receive grants from the Government. There is no reason why that should not be continued, for they do very good work. In addition to that, the best work of all is done by the shipping agencies. But I do not believe, apart from the necessary negotiations which have to take place with the Dominions with regard to certain things, that in the long run emigration is encouraged by a State Department looking after it. At any rate, perhaps the noble Lord who is answering for the Government would tell me when he is dealing with the Secretary of State's tour whether this question of emigration can be dealt with—and I think he can only repeat on that point what the Secretary of State himself has said in another place—and whether if the whole question of emigration is at a standstill it would not be advisable to make this very necessary economy, which might also help in the efficiency of the Departments concerned.
The noble Viscount who put down this Resolution on the Paper has given us a sketch of what he wishes and how every-

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taing is going to be satisfactorily arranged. The noble Lord who replies will toll us how far his picture corresponds with the facts. Of one thing I am certain, and it is that the noble viscount in pressing for very careful preparation being made before this Conference is called together was speaking of something which is obviously most necessary. That preparation can best be done by the Secretary of State for the Dominions, can best be done by the Secretary of State for the Dominions in Downing Street, and that is an additional reason why he should not go for a, tour round the Empire. On those few points, in addition to those which have been raised by the noble Viscount, perhaps the noble Lord who answers for t he Government will give your Lordships some information.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will feel grateful to the noble Viscount for having raised this issue this afternoon, and indeed His Majesty's Government, will be glad to have his expression of views on this most important subject. Your Lordships will realise, I am sure, that at a date so early after the formation of this National Government it is not possible for me to give a very detailed answer to the questions raised—not, anyhow, so detailed an answer as may, I trust, be possible at a later stage. I will, however, endeavour to reply as definitely as I ran to the points enunciated by the noble Viscount. Of course I need hardly assure your Lordships' House that His Majesty's Government are fully alive to the interest taken not only in this country but throughout the whole Empire in this question and are taking every possible step to ensure the ultimate success of the Conference when it takes place.
The noble Viscount impressed us with the fact that it was necessary that the Conference should meet at the earliest possible date, and I think I am correct in saying that he asked us more or less when and where it would take place. The answer to that is a fairly simple one. First of all, your Lordships will agree that it would be unwise to hold an Imperial Economic Conference unless all parts of the Empire invited were able to be represented. The date, therefore, is
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not dependent only on the wishes of His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom but also upon those of the Dominions and India. It will be in the recollection of your Lordships that at the last Imperial Conference it was arranged that the Imperial Economic Conference should be held at Ottawa and the invitations for the present, or rather the projected Conference, have been issued by His Majesty's Government in Ottawa and not by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. To that invitation His Majesty's Government sent their immediate reply accepting and welcoming the Conference. The replies of all the other Governments concerned are naturally addressed to His Majesty's Government in Canada, but as far as can be seen at present it is unlikely that any date earlier than July will be found suitable for all the Governments concerned. I may remind your Lordships that one of the reasons for this is the fact that in New Zealand a General Election is going to take place in the immediate future; also that Press telegrams from Australia to-day indicate that the position there is uncertain and that in all probability a General Election may take place there in the near future, and will almost certainly take place, anyhow, before next May. I am also given to understand that the Government of South Africa have stated in their acceptance that July is the earliest possible date at which they can conveniently contemplate attendance.
The noble Viscount asked me in my reply to give some indication of the preparations which the Government are making for this Imperial Economic Conference. So far as His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom are concerned, they have already commenced a thorough investigation of the problems involved, and they trust that this investigation together with the personal discussions which the Secretary of State for the Dominions hopes to have with the Dominion Prime Ministers in the Dominions themselves will greatly facilitate the task of the Conference when it meets. It is hardly necessary to point out that the complicated issues involved cannot be thoroughly examined without a certain interval of time. No question therefore of a few months delay—delay, let us remember, which is being spent in careful and essential preparation—can

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be regarded as unwise or unnecessary, keeping in mind the all-important factor, which is to ensure the ultimate success of the Conference. The Government are confident that the Conference will be expected on all hands to mark a definite advance in the history of inter-Imperial economic relations, and indeed any other result would be nothing short of a disaster.
The noble Viscount asked me about procedure. Your Lordships will not, I trust, expect me at this stage to indicate the exact line of policy to be adopted by His Majesty's Government in its procedure before and at the Conference. To do so now, even were it possible, might be to hamper the objects which we all have in view. All that I can say now is that His Majesty's Government gladly recognise that they have been given a free hand to consider and employ any methods or plans best calculated to promote economic co-operation between the several parts of the British Commonwealth, but for reasons which I have already stated it would be clearly out of the question for the Government to make any statement at the moment as to the policy which they may eventually propose at the Conference itself. The Government, I should like to remind your Lordships, is not making this inquiry only at home but, as I have already stated, the Secretary of State for the Dominions hopes to have personal discussions with the Dominion Prime Ministers in the Dominions. The noble Lord,, Lord Ponsonby, seemed to think there was an element of danger, or, anyhow, that there was no necessity for this consultation, but it is the considered view of those who are responsible for this decision that great advantage will accrue from personal contact between the Secretary of State and the Dominion Prime Ministers.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: May I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment on this point? If the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for the Dominions is going on this tour is it not necessary that certain principles should be laid down by His Majesty's Government before he goes, so as to govern his attitude and his talks with the Governments of the various Dominions?
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: I can assure the noble Viscount
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that before the Secretary of State leaves there is no doubt he will be guided by his colleagues in that respect, but I cannot this afternoon make any statement as to what those principles are or what is entailed. I should perhaps explain that the object which the Secretary of State will have in view in making this tour will be to prepare the ground, so that when the Conference assembles it will be possible for all to see what can be thrown, so to speak, into the common pot. The effort must be universal. I need hardly remind your Lordships that all the concessions and all the advances must not be on one side.
The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, referred to the question of migration and he seemed to think that an immediate and necessary economy would be to close down the Overseas Settlement Department. As far as that Department is concerned I can assure him that steps have already been taken to reduce the staff of the Overseas Settlement Department as far as possible. With regard to migration the Government recognise that the encouragement of migration to the Dominions is in present circumstances impracticable, and indeed for the first time for a great many years it is a fact that more migrants are coming in from the Dominions than we are able to send out to them. But I think most of us will agree that it would be a profound mistake to close the door and it is no part of the Government's policy to do so, at present anyhow. I should perhaps have added that in preparation for this Conference His Majesty's Government are not unmindful of the possibilities of development in other parts of the Empire which will not be directly represented at Ottawa but whose interests are our interests, and whose problems are our problems. That important side of the question is being fully considered by the Government and will, I imagine, form part of their general economic policy. I trust that the information that I have been able to give will satisfy your Lordships and more especially the noble Viscount who raised this question to-day.
I may say this of his speech, if he will not object to a sincere compliment coming from one so much younger and less experienced a member of this House

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than he himself is, that I thought he enunciated his case not only with obvious Moderation and restraint, but also with the enthusiasm and clear-sightedness which always grace and enliven his utterances; but he will recognise that at so early a stage in the Government's career it would be impossible for me for me to lay down more than I have already done on the questions of principle and procedure. I think I may say, however, that we all realise the immense importance of the part which confronts us, the tremendous issues involved, and the tremendous necessity of securing at this Conference lasting advantages which will benefit and bind together still more firmly every link in the Commonwealth of Nations which constitutes the British Empire to-day.
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, after the reply of the Government I do not propose to press my Motion to a Division. I wish to thank the noble Lord for his courteous reply, and for the way in which he has attempted to deal with the various points which I have placed before your Lordships' House. I did not expect a very definite reply from the noble Lord this afternoon, but I do feel from the tone of that reply that the Government are fully impressed with the necessity of very early action, both with regard to preparation for the Conference and the Conference itself, and also with the necessity of ultimately seeing that that Conference is a successful one and not a failure. With those few words I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (SAFETY AND LOAD LINE CONVENTIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, in moving that the House do resolve itself into Committee, on this Bill, with your Lordships' permission I would like to make a very short statement. As a result of the debate yesterday I have approached the Board of Trade to find out what methods they propose to adopt
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in bringing the change of helm orders into effect, and I am authorised to state that if and when the Bill becomes an Act, before the method of giving helm orders is actually changed ample notice will be given. In no circumstances will the length of notice to the shipping industry be less than three months, but in all probability the actual length of notice will be six months. The Department does not propose to prescribe the method by which helm orders shall be given, but they do propose, as they always do, to call in the officers' associations and those concerned in the shipping industry, so that there should be full and definite consultation as to the best and safest method of bringing the change into effect. I hope that that assurance may to some extent satisfy Lord Merrivale that when the change is brought into effect it will be done in such a way that the seamen of this country will be able to adopt the change without any danger either to themselves or their great industry. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Stanhope.)
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I should like to express my strong sense of obligation to the noble Earl for the manner in which he has promptly dealt with the difficulties which are inherent in this task which has devolved upon him. The noble Earl recognised, quite readily, that there is over a large area of those engaged in the shipping industry very profound anxiety as to the possible effect of a sudden change with regard to the helm orders which are instinctively in use among trained seamen. One of the objections which I ventured to raise yesterday was the possibility, as it seemed, of an almost immediate change in this respect. The noble Earl met that by saying that it is not proposed that the Order in Council shall take effect in less than a certain period, which I trust will be six months, because having waited for a good many years those concerned may, I think, possess their souls in patience, if they get their Statute and see it on the point of coming into operation. It will be an indication of their desire, if the time is made reasonably long.
With regard to the other matter, I do no think anybody would desire that the

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Board of Trade should prescribe the new orders. There are difficulties. Everybody concerned knows that there are very considerable difficulties in finding something which is concise and which is unmistakable. The Board of Trade, as I understand, will discuss that matter with the officers' associations and put the subject in a position in which it can be said to be on a sound footing. There is one other thing which I hope the Board of Trade will take into consideration, and that is whether, with their compulsory powers of control of the mercantile marine, they should not impose upon shipowners generally the obligation to take charge at the earliest practicable time of the duty of seeing that the helmsmen who are hereafter to use the new orders shall have some reasonable opportunity, under fair conditions, of learning the effect of them. I must say that, for myself, I cannot doubt, although I have been very anxious about the whole matter from the information I have had, that if seamen under normal circumstances are practised in a reasonable set of orders they will fall into the new way. That is my belief.
When I say that it is obvious that I could not myself resist the noble Earl's Motion, if it is necessary that it should be made; and if this change is to take effect—and successive Governments have declared their intention that the Statute shall, if they can prevail upon Parliament, take effect—then the matter must be faced. I do not profess to have any authority to speak for any very general body of persons. I have simply received their complaints and learned their apprehensions; but, after all, the officers of the mercantile marine and the seamen are reasonable Englishmen, and I think they are quite competent to do as well upon the sea as any other body of seamen in the world. And, as other seamen have learnt new helm orders, the noble Earl anticipates that our seamen will. If care is taken that time is given, and that there is a free discussion which shall clarify the situation, and that proper obligations are put upon the shipowners as to the course to be taken with regard to the training of helmsmen, for my own part my anxieties on the matter would be, if not entirely removed, very substantially allayed. I thank the noble Earl.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment.

EXPIRING LAWS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Heading read.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, this Bill, which comes up each year, is a comprehensive one, and covers many different subjects. Therefore it is impossible, in moving it, to enter into any explanation of any of the Bills; but if your Lordships have any questions to ask about them at this stage I shall be glad to answer them, if I possibly can. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (The Earl of Lucan.)
LORD ASKWITH: My Lords, I was going to put down an Amendment to this Bill for the purpose of getting an explanation. The Bill is in a very different form from that to which we have been accustomed in former years. One generally connects the words "expiring laws continuance" with continuing an Act for one year. But, if this Bill is looked at, it will be seen that Part I of the Second Schedule deals with the continuance for one year of a great many Acts, and Part III continues for three years certain other Acts; while the First Schedule makes certain Acts, or parts of Acts, permanent. It says they shall "to the extent specified in column three'' of the Schedule become permanent Acts. When one looks at that Schedule one sees that the first Act is the Seal Fisheries (North Pacific) Act, 1895—" the whole Act." That seems to be quite clear. The second one is the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, "so far as it relates to orders made by any court before the thirty-first day of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-two." That is to say that a great deal of War legislation, without any explanation or White Paper to show what that War legislation is, is now to become the permanent Statute law of the land. The third Act is the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1916—also War legislation—and a portion of it is made permanent in the vaguest language that I have ever seen in a Bill brought before Parliament. Defining the part of it which is made permanent it says:

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"Section six, so far as it confers rights on officers or servants of a local authority in respect of their service or employment in or about certain premises. "
I should be very glad if my noble friend would give an explanation of the reason of this, and of what these two last Acts mean.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: I heard this afternoon that my noble friend was going to ask a question on this subject, and I have tried to get some information from the appropriate Department. These Acts which are made permanent are so made in consequence of the Report of the Select Committee on Expiring Laws, which met in July of this year. It is held every three years, I understand. They go through the list and weed out certain measures which perhaps they think may be no longer useful. It seems rather an odd way to weed them out by making them permanent, but I will explain that to the noble Lord later. As regards the first Act, the Seal Fisheries (North Pacific) Act, that has been an annual Bill for thirty years and more; and under it His Majesty can make Orders in Council protecting Heals in the North Pacific. It chiefly concerns Canada, and Canada has asked that it should be made permanent. It is important that it should be made permanent before the Statute of Westminster becomes law, because otherwise making it permanent would entail two Acts, one in this country and one in Canada, in order to accomplish that object. It is an enabling Act, and not an operative one; it merely empowers the King to make Orders in Council.
As regards the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, 1914, made permanent "so far as it relates to orders made by any court before the thirty-first clay of August, nineteen hundred and twenty-two," the explanation of that given in the "Report of the Select Committee is this. The Lord Chancellor's Department desires that it should be made permanent:
"The Act has been continued only so far as it validates orders made by a court be-fore 31st August, 1922. There are no means
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of ascertaining whether or not there are still on foot some such orders which depend for their validity on the powers conferred by this Act, and in these circumstances the Lord Chancellor's Department consider that it would be best to make the Act permanent, leaving it to be repealed, with the usual savings, by the next Statute Law lie-vision Act. Scottish office and Ministry of Finance of Northern Ireland concur."
The object, I understand, of repealing it instead of allowing it to lapse is that any orders which have been made under it remain in force in the case of a repeal, but in the case of a lapse they would lapse too. Therefore it is to be made permanent in order to be repealed.
In regard to the Local Government (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1916, Section 6, so far as it confers rights on officers or servants of a local authority, as the noble Lord said, was passed as a War measure to enable local authorities to lend their buildings for public purposes, chiefly, apparently, as mental hospitals. It is believed that there is only one institution now left under this arrangement. But the object of making the section permanent in order to repeal it is to ensure that any employees of the local authority who worked at this particular work during the War shall return to their local authority to serve for their pensions. As some of them are young and may have to serve a certain length of time before they receive a pension, it is important that this provision should be kept in force in order that their rights to pension shall be secured. That, I think, deals with the three Acts that the noble Lord asked me about, and I hope that he is satisfied with the information I have been able to afford him.
LORD ASKWITH: I am much obliged to the noble Earl; but may I ask whether the White Paper has been circulated to Parliament?
THE EARL OF LUCAN: I think it is a public Paper.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at half past five o'clock.