HL Deb 14 May 1931 vol 80 cc1234-62

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My Lords, in moving that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill I ask to be allowed to make one or two observations. Your Lordships will have noticed from the Paper that the Bill required a, considerable amount of redrafting. I should like to explain how that comes about. The Bill took twelve days in Committee in the House of Commons arid the promoters, in their anxiety to meet their critics, made a very large num- ber of concessions. The result, I must admit, is a certain measure of confusion. The Marshalled List of Amendments shows that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, will move the omission of a considerable number of clauses, and substituted clauses will be proposed. These substituted clauses are in every case clearer and more explicit and less liable to misapprehension or misinterpretation than the clauses in the Bill as it reached us. In order to reduce the amount of attention and trouble inflicted upon your Lordships, the Home Office have adopted the plan of excluding whole clauses and putting down wholly new clauses in their place. I think, if I may say so with respect, that this is an extremely sensible manner of approaching the question, and I am obliged to the Home Office for the care and attention they have devoted to the subject. I must apologise to the House for being responsible for a Bill which does require so much amendment, but I submit it to your favourable consideration.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

My Lords, I may perhaps be allowed to say that I think the noble Earl has put the case very clearly. Although a number of Amendments are on the Paper, some of them are to a large extent redrafting of some of the clauses and rearranging the order of some of the others, and an attempt to clarify and in no way to alter the principle and purpose of the Bill. I am much obliged to the noble Earl for taking so much trouble to meet us on these points.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2 [Interpretation]:

The EARL OF CRAWFORD

The two Amendments to this clause in my name are purely formal and drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 1, line 16, after ("made") insert ("by the Council")

Page 1, line 18. leave out ("of Registered Architects").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3:

Council to set up and maintain a Register of Architects.

(3) It shall be the duty of the Council within six months from the passing of this Act to set up and thereafter maintain a register to be called "the Register of Registered Architects" and to cause to be entered therein the name and address of every person entitled to be registered under this Act, and to cause to he removed there-from—

  1. (a) the names of all registered persons who have given notice in manner prescribed by the Council to remove their names from the Register; and
  2. (b) the names of all registered persons who shall have died or have been found to be of unsound mind, and any names which the Council in accordance with the provisions of this Act are required to have removed from the Register and any names or particulars inaccurately entered there-in, and from time to time to cause to be made any necessary alterations therein.

For the purposes of this subsection a person shall be deemed to have been found to be of unsound mind if, and only if,—

  1. (i) a reception order is made with respect to him under the Lunacy and Mental Treatment Acts, 1890 to 1930; or
  2. (ii) he is found by inquisition to be of unsound mind; or
  3. (iii) he is detained as a criminal lunatic.

(4) The Council shall not later than twenty-seven months from the passing of this Act and annually thereafter publish and offer for sale copies of the Register, setting forth the names of the registered persons in alphabetical order according to their surnames, with their respective regular business addresses, and a copy of the Register certified by order of the Council or by any officer of the Council duly authorised in that behalf, to be a correct copy, shall be prime facie evidence that any person named therein is registered in accordance with the provisions of this Act: Provided always that in the case of a person whose name does not appear on such copy, a certificate under the hand of any officer of the Council, duly authorised in that behalf, of the entry of the name of such person in the Register, shall be evidence that such person is registered in accordance with the provisions of this Act, such certificate shall remain the property of the Council and be surrendered by the holder to the Council upon publication of the name in or upon removal of the name from the Register.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

These are verbal Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Page 2, line 4, leave out the first ("by") and insert ("in") Page 2, line 16, leave out ("given notice in manner prescribed by") and insert ("made application to the Council in the prescribed manner, requesting").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, in subsection (3) (b), to leave out "or have been found to be of unsound mind, and any names which the Council in accordance with the provisions of this Act are required to have removed from the Register" The noble Lord said: This subsection requires the Council to remove from the Register any person found to be of unsound mind, that is to say, any person detained in an institution. A person in detention cannot continue to practice as an architect, but on the other hand, if he recovers he would be entitled probably to have his name restored to the Register. As drafted, the clause only refers to detention under the English Acts and does not cover a person detained outside England and Wales.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 20, leave out from ("died") to the end of line 23.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment, agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

Of my next two Amendments, the first is drafting and the second is consequential on the lines already omitted.

Amendments moved—

Page 2, line 25, leave out ("therein") and insert ("in the Register")

page 2, line 27, leave nut lines 27 to 35.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE EARL OF ORAWFORD moved, in subsection (4), after "sale," to insert "at the prescribed price." The noble Earl said: This is merely to ensure that the Register shall be issued at a prescribed price.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 38, after ("sale") insert ("at the prescribed price").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, in the proviso in subsection (4), before "evidence," to insert "prima facie." The noble Lord said: This subsection provides that the Council may issue temporary certificates in the case of a person whose name for any reason does not appear in the published list, and may also require that the certificate shall be surrendered by the holder to the Council upon publication of the name in, or upon the removal of the name from, the Register. The noble Viscount, Lord Bertie of Thame proposes, in an Amendment which we come to next, to make it a criminal offence not to surrender the certificate on demand, but it is really rather doubtful whether it is necessary to create a new offence, as a person who holds himself out to be a registered architect when not entitled to do so is already liable to a penalty of £50. On the other hand, we think that a person improperly in possession of such a certificate would have a good defence if proceedings under Clause 12 were taken against him, that no evidence to the contrary could be adduced. This is an Amendment which would give the Court power to hear rebutting evidence, if necessary.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 6, after ("be") insert ("prima facie").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My only fear was that the architect might make some improper use of the certificate by passing it on to somebody else. I think there should be some fine, though I am not particular about the amount of the fine.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, to add to the clause: If the holder refuses or fails so to surrender such certificate to the council on demand he shall on summary conviction be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds." The noble Viscount said: I have already spoken on this point, and I would like the noble Lord to consider it between now and Report, because I think there might become occasion when the man might make some ill use of the certificate.

Amendment Moved— Page 3, line 11, at end, insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I was not quite sure how the noble Earl in charge of the Bill regarded this Amendment. I have no great objection to it, except that a person who accidentally lost or destroyed his certificate would become liable to the penalty. If the noble Viscount would omit the words "or fails" it could be accepted.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

That seems to be quite reasonable, and I will move it in that form.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment moved—

Page 3, line 11, at end insert ("If the holder refuses so to surrender such certificate to the council on demand he shall on summary conviction be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, after Clause 4, to insert the following new clause:

Board of Architectural Education and Admission Committee.

".—(1) For the purposes of this Act there shall be appointed annually by the Council—

  1. (a) a board of architectural education (in this Act referred to as 'the Board') constituted in accordance with the Second Schedule to this Act; and
  2. (b) a committee (in this Act referred to as the Admission Committee') constituted in accordance with the Third Schedule to this Act.

(2) It shall be the duty of the Board to recommend to the Council—

  1. (a) the recognition of any examinations in architecture the passing of which ought, in the opinion of the Board, to qualify persons for registration under this Act; and
  2. (b) the holding of any examinations in architecture which ought, in the opinion of the Board, to be passed by applicants for registration under this Act;
and to hold examinations in architecture in accordance with this Act.

(3) It shall be the duty of the Admission Committee to consider every application for registration under this Act and to report thereon to the Council as to whether or not the applicant is, in the opinion of the Committee, qualified for registration."

The noble Lord said: This clause is merely declaratory of the appointment, constitution, and functions of the Architectural Board of Education and the Admission Committee. It really carries out quite faithfully the intentions of Clause 7 in the Bill as it stands. There was in the Bill as it stands some uncertainty with regard to the position of the Admission Committee, because in the first instance, to quote a paragraph from the Bill, "The Admission Committee shall continue in existence for such period as may be necessary to deal with the questions arising under this section" That would seem to imply that the Admission Committee after the commencement would cease to exist. But later on Clause 6 would seem to indicate that the Committee will be a permanent body and will have to decide whether new entrants possess the qualifications prescribed by the Council. So on the whole it seemed necessary to presume from the reading of Clauses 5 and 6 that the Admission Committee was to be a permanent body, and this intention is carried out by the addition which I now move.

Amendment moved— After Clause 4 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

The noble Lord says the new clause conforms to the intentions of the promoters of the Bill. We shall be very happy to agree to these proposals.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5 [Persons entitled to be registered without examination]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out Clause 5 and insert a new clause. The noble Lord said: I want to make a small verbal Amendment in this clause as it appears on the Paper. In subsection 1 (b), instead of "in practice" I want to substitute the word "practising" That amendment has been made to meet a point which has been raised as to whether an architect retained by some large firm or bank as a private architect would be considered to be an architect "in practice". Of course the Bill is intended to cover such an architect. Therefore "practising" would seem to cover that case and be the better way of expressing it. This new clause supersedes Clauses 5, 6 and 7 of the Bill as it stands, because there is a good deal of overlapping and inconsistency in the way in which the clauses have been drafted. Clause 5 (1) (b), for instance, entitled to registration any person obtaining a degree or diploma recognised by the Council, but Clause 7 imposes on the Council the duty to recognise examinations recognised by the Architectural Board of Education. Again Clause 6 makes the decisions of the Admission Committee subject to confirmation or revision by the Council, so that the function of this Committee would in practice be limited to making recommendations to the Council. It is clear that these three clauses require revision and they have been recast in the form of a single clause, which will preserve the functions of the Admission Committee and will make the Council ultimately responsible for deciding whether the application for registration shall be accepted or rejected.

I do not think I need trouble the House with the various amendments which have been made. I know the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, has studied this clause very carefully, and I understand that it agrees with the view he takes. I might say that there is rather an important point at the end. The proviso to Clause 7 as the Bill stands has been omitted. The proviso in the Bill says that recognition of examinations once accorded by the Council shall not be withdrawn without the approval of the Privy Council. It is not quite understood what was the real object of this proviso. But if a school of architecture were aggrieved by the Council's striking its examination off the list of prescribed qualifications it would in practice, under subsection (3) of the revised draft, be able to lay its ease before the Architectural Board, and if the Board approved its examination the Council would be obliged to restore it to the approved list. In practice the Council would probably not strike an examination off this list without previously consulting the Board, and if the Board did not consider the examination to be up to the necessary standard it would be extremely difficult for the Privy Council to overrule the Board's decision on a matter solely concerned with technical education. In any case it is not a duty which the Privy Council desires to exercise, and it has been thought best to omit this proviso from the clause. I beg to move the clause in the form I mentioned.

Amendment moved—

Leave out Clause 5 and insert the following new clause:

Qualifications for registration.

".—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, a person shall, on application made to the Council in the proscribed manner and on payment of the prescribed fee, be entitled to be registered under this Act, if the Council are satisfied on a report of the Admission Committee—

  1. (a) that he is an architect member of the Royal Academy or of the Royal Scottish Academy; or
  2. (b) that his application for registration was made within two years from the commencement of this Act and that at the commencement of this Act he was, or had. been, practising as an architect in the United Kingdom; or
  3. (c) that he has passed any examination in architecture which is for the time being recognised by the Council; or
  4. (d) that he possesses the prescribed qualifications.

(2) The Council shall cause a written notice of their decision on any application for registration to be served on the applicant within the prescribed period after the date of decision.

(3) Where the Board recommend to the Council the recognition of any examination in architecture, the Council than recognise that examination for the purpose of paragraph (c) of subsection (1) of this section.

(4) For the purpose of paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of this section, the prescribed qualifications may include the passing of any examinations in architecture, the holding of which may have been recommended to the Council by the Board, and in that event the Council shall direct the Board to hold those examinations, and those examinations shall be held by the Board accordingly at least once in each year and at such times and places as the Board may determine. Save as aforesaid, the Council shall not prescribe as a qualification for registration the passing of any examination held by or under the authority of the Council or the Board."—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

I entirely agree. I think this is a masterpiece of compression on the part of the Home Office, and I hope the clause will be accepted.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6 [Confirmation of decisions of Admission Committee]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out Clause 6. The noble Lord said: This Amendment is consequential on the previous Amendment, as is also the next Amendment, to leave out Clause 7.

Amendment moved—

Leave out Clause 6.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7 [Council to prescribe future regulations for registration]:

Amendment moved—

Leave out Clause 7.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8 [Removal of name from register]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREEDE moved to leave out Clause 8 and insert the following new clause:

Removal of name front Register for criminal offence or professional misconduct.

".—(1) If any registered person is convicted of a criminal offence, or if the committee appointed for the purposes of this section, after an inquiry held thereunder in respect of any registered person, report to the Council that that person has been guilty of conduct disgraceful to him in his capacity as an architect, the Council may, subject to the provisions of this section, cause the name of that person to be removed from the Register, and where the name of any person is duly removed from the Register under this subsection, he shall, during such period thereafter as the Council may determine on the occasion of the removal, be disqualified for registration under this Act:

Provided that the Council may, if and when they think fit, restore the name to the Register on payment of the fee payable for registration under this Act.

(2) For the purposes of this section there shall, subject as hereinafter provided, be appointed annually by the Council a committee (in this Act referred to as the Discipline Committee') consisting of eight persons, of whom four shall be registered persons nominated by the Council (including one person who is practising as an architect in Scotland), one shall be nominated by the Commissioners of Works, one shall be nominated by the Minister of Health and two shall be nominated by the President of the Law Society, and it shall be the duty of the said Committee, if so directed by the Council, to inquire into, and report to the Council on, any case in which it is alleged that a registered person has been guilty of conduct disgraceful to him in his capacity as an architect:

Provided that, in the case of any inquiry under this section in respect of a registered person who is a member of any of the bodies referred to in the First Schedule to this Act, the council or other governing body of each such body of which the registered person is a member shall (except where the Discipline Committee already includes a member of that body) be entitled to nominate one person for membership of that Committee, and upon the name of any person duly nominated as aforesaid being submitted to them in the prescribed manner, the Council shall appoint that person to be an additional member of the Discipline Committee for the purposes of the inquiry and of the report of the Committee in connection therewith.

(3) It shall be the duty of the Council to direct the Discipline Committee to hold an inquiry under this section in any case in which it appears to the Council that such an inquiry is necessary.

(4) Where the Council direct the Discipline Committee to hold any inquiry under this section in respect of a registered person, the Council shall forthwith cause to be served on that person a written notice of the proposed inquiry, specifying the time and place at which it is to be held and the subject matter thereof, and that person shall, on application made in the prescribed manner and within the prescribed period from the date of the service of the said notice, be entitled to he heard by the Discipline Committee at the inquiry, either in person or by counsel or a solicitor.

(5) Where the Council intend to remove the name of any person from the Register in pursuance of this section, then, before so doing, the Council shall cause a written notice of their intention to be served on that person and shall, on application made by that person in the prescribed manner within three months from the date of the service of the said notice, consider any representations with regard to the matter which may be made by him to the Council, either in person or by counsel or a solicitor."

The noble Lord said: This clause requires a little explanation, as it replaces Clauses 8, 9 and 10, which have been found defective in many respects. There is no provision in them for the proper service of notices in connection with the removal of a name from the register, nor do they state, as clearly intended, that where a person's name has been removed from the register the person shall be disqualified from getting back on to the register, as he might otherwise do. The following modifications have been made. The term "criminal offence" has been substituted for "felony or misdemeanour," because "misdemeanour" is a term of some uncertainty and its use ought to be avoided in a clause of this character. There is a discrepancy in subsections (1) and (2) of the existing Clause 8, because subsection (1) refers to a person "guilty of any conduct disgraceful to him in any respect," whereas subsection (2) refers to a person "guilty of any conduct disgraceful to him in a professional respect." As a person might be a member of two professions it is proposed to use the expression "guilty of conduct disgraceful to him in his capacity as an architect."

Subsection (4) of Clause 8 is being omitted. It is felt that it would be quite unworkable and might give rise to considerable difficulties. The subsection provides that where the subject of any inquiry held by the Discipline Committee affects the conduct of a person in relation with any member of the organisations enumerated in subparagraph (11) of paragraph 1 of the First Schedule such organisation shall be entitled to nominate one member of the Discipline Committee. In the first place the Discipline Committee can only investigate the case of a registered person referred to it. A person who is a member of one of the bodies referred to in that sub-paragraph of the Schedule may not even be a registered person, and the question of his being implicated with the registered person who is the subject of art inquiry may not be raised until late in the proceedings, when it would be impracticable to add a member to the Discipline Committee. The provision is also open to the objection that it suggests that the Discipline Committee can investigate the conduct of persons other than registered architects. An uncertain provision of this character might seriously embarrass the Discipline Committee. I do not think there is any other point about which I need offer an explanation.

Amendment moved—

Leave out Clause 8 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Tonsonby of Skulbrede.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, in the proviso to subsection (1), after "fit," to insert "either of their own motion or on the application of the person concerned." The noble Viscount said: I think your Lordships will agree that when analogous Bills come before Parliament the provisions of both should coincide as far as possible. The Amendments standing in my name from now to the end are founded on the provisions of the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill. The words "either of their own motion or on the application of the person concerned" occur in Clause 10, page 7, lines 9 and 10, of that Bill as it left your Lordships' House. If they are in that Bill I think they ought to be in this also. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Amendment moved— In the proviso to subsection (1) after ("fit") insert ("either of their own motion or on the application of the person concerned").—(Viscount Bertie of name.)

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I do not think there is any objection to inserting these words, unless the noble Earl sees any.

TEE EARL OF CRAWFORD

No.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

If the noble Viscount will be good enough to make a small Amendment in his second Amendment, "such fee" require to be qualified by the words "as the Council may determine." If he. would allow me, I would suggest that his Amendment should run in the following way "Provided that the Council may at any time either of their own motion or on the application of the person concerned cause his name to be restored either without payment of a fee or on payment of such fee not exceeding the fee payable for registration under this Act as the Council may determine." If that satisfies the noble Viscount I will hand it to the Lord Chairman.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I readily fall in with that suggestion if it is suitable to my noble friend below me.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

Yes.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

I think that covers the three Amendments.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

Yes.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

Then the noble Viscount will move his Amendment in the form in which it was read out by Lord Ponsonby.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

Yes.

Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment to the Amendment moved—

In subsection (1) leave out the proviso and insert the following proviso:—

("Provided that the Council may at any time either of their own motion or on the application of the person concerned cause his name to be restored either without payment of a fee or on payment of such fee not exceeding the fee payable for registration under this Act ass the Council may determine").—(Viscount Bertie of Theme.)

On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THANE

There is a consequential Amendment to leave out "on payment of the fee payable for registration."

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I think that is covered by the way in which the Lord Chairman put the Amendment to the House.

On Question, Amendment to leave out Clause 8 and insert the new clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9 [Notice of removal from Register]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out Clause 9 and insert the following new clause:

Notice of removal of name from Register.

".Where the Council cause the name of any person to he removed from the Register, they shall forthwith cause written notice of the removal to be served on that person, and where, in connection with the removal, the Council have determined that the person in question shall, during any period, be disqualified for registration, the determination of the Council shall be specified in the said notice."

The noble Lord said: This clause is merely a matter of machinery which I do not think requires any explanation.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 9 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, after the second "person,' to insert "by registered letter addressed to him at his address in the Register." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment appears in Clause 9 subsection (2) of the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill. Its object is to make certain that he does receive the communication. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Amendment moved— In line 4 after ("person") insert ("by registered letter addressed to him at his address in the Register").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I think the noble Viscount will find that this point of his is covered in view of the provisions of Clause 17. He will find there the actual words which he uses in his Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

As that is so I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On Question, Amendment to leave out Clause 9 and insert a new clause agreed to.

Clause 10 [Restoration of name removed from Register]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out Clause 10. The noble Lord said: The omission of Clause 10 is consequential on the insertion of the new Clause 8. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 10.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11 [Appeal against refusal to register or removal of name from Register]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out Clause 11 and insert the following new clause:

Right of appeal against removal of name from Register.

".Any person aggrieved by the removal of his name from the Register, or by a determination of the Council that he be disqualified for registration during any period, may, within three months from the date on which notice of the removal or determination was served on him, appeal to the High Court or Court of Session against the removal or determination, and on any such appeal the Court may give such directions in the matter as they think proper, and the order of the Court shall he final."

The noble Lord said: This clause has been revised to make it fit with the new clause preceding and to ensure that a person removed from the register is given a right of appeal to the High Court or, in Scotland, the Court of Session. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 11 and insert the said new clause.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, after "proper," to insert "including directions as to the costs of the appeal" The noble Viscount said: The words "including directions as to the costs of the appeal" appear in Clause 14 (3) of the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill. If they are not included in this Bill it may be possible that costs cannot be included in the finding of the Judge. I beg to move, therefore, that these words be inserted.

Amendment to the Amendment moved— Line 9 after ("proper") insert ("including directions as to the cost of the appeal").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

As far as I am concerned, I do not object to that, thought I wish your Lordships to remember that architects are much more innocent persons than chemists.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

The noble Viscount's eagle eye has found a precedent for the introduction of these words into this Bill. So far as it goes, I do not think there is any objection to it, but it is unnecessary. I would point out to him that the words also have a rather limiting effect. Although what he says about the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill is perfectly true, as a matter of fact Section 50 of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act, 1925, provides that the costs incidental to all proceedings in the Supreme Court shall be in the discretion of the Court or Judge, and the Court or Judge shall have full power to determine by whom and to what extent the costs are to be paid. If the proposed words are inserted they might be read as limiting the powers which a Court might have under the clause as drafted to order the payment of costs incurred in the hearing of the case before the Discipline Committee or the Council. I think the noble Viscount will see that their insertion might have a slightly limiting effect, Which I do not think he wishes. If he insists, I agree with the noble Earl that I have no objection.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I only withdraw the Amendment on condition that the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill is altered in another place by striking out those words; otherwise they will lead to confusion. I press the Amendment if the noble Lord will not agree to that.

LORD DANESFORT

May I ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill, if these words were not inserted would the Court have power to direct payment of costs prior to the hearing in the High Court? It is possible the person aggrieved might have incurred costs before going to the High Court in connection with his removal from the Register. Would the High Court have power to reimburse him or order payment of such costs by virtue of the clause in the Act to which the noble Lord referred?

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

That is precisely the point. The noble Lord, Lord Danesfort, has explained the matter exactly. I am advised it would cover those costs, whereas the limiting words might not.

On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.

On Question, Amendment to leave out Clause 11 and insert the new clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 12:

Use of title.

12. Any registered person shall be entitled to take and use the name or title of "Registered Architect," but a person shall not practise under any name, title or style containing the words "Registered Architect," unless ho is a registered person, and any unregistered person who so practises or wilfully pretends to be a registered person, or takes or uses the name or title of a Registered Architect or any name, title, style or description implying that he is a registered person, shall on summary conviction be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds for the first offence and one hundred pounds for every subsequent offence: Provided that—

  1. (a) where a contravention of this section by any person is occasioned by the fact that his name had been removed from the Register it shall he a good defence to any proceedings in respect of the contravention to prove that at the time when it is alleged to have been committed—
  2. (i) notice of the removal had not been served in accordance with this Act; or
  3. (ii) the time for making application to the Council for the restoration of the name to the Register had not expired; or
  4. (iii) such an application had been duly made and had not been determined; or
  5. (iv) the time for appealing to the High Court against the removal had not expired; or
  6. (v) an appeal to the High Court against the removal had been duly brought and had not been determined; and
  7. (b) nothing in this section shall affect the validity as between contracting parties of any act of any person under any customary form or conditions of a building contract.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

The Amendment which I have down upon this clause is drafting. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 6, line 29, leave out ("penalty") and insert ("fine").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to substitute "twenty pounds" for "fifty pounds." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment and the following one in my name (with regard to a continuing offence and a penalty not exceeding £5 per day) go together. The object is to bring the penalty into line with the penalty for infringement of Clause 14 of the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill. Surely it is a much more serious offence for a chemist to procure or attempt to procure registration by a false means than an architect. The penalty proposed is £50. The proposal I make would reduce it to £20, and, as in the case of the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill, for a continuing offence a fine of £5 for each day after conviction. I understand my noble friend below me (the Earl of Crawford) thinks that the penalty I propose is more severe. I am not very particular as to whether the Amendment is put in or not, but I should like to hear the views of the noble Lord opposite.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 29, leave out ("fifty") and insert ("twenty").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I would ask the noble Viscount not to press this Amendment. It is not so much the amount he puts in, but it is the method that he proposes. I quite admit that in the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill the penalty is arranged in this way. It is a very easy thing to see whether a chemist's shop is kept open from day to day, and to fine a person for each day, but it is a very difficult thing to know whether a person is writing letters on paper in which he describes himself as a registered architect, and to find out by investigating his correspondence whether he is doing it every day. Quite apart from the severity of the penalty, I think the method is impracticable because it would become necessary to prove strictly each day whether the person had used the title of a registered architect. I hope the noble Viscount will not press the Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

The next Amendments in my name are drafting. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 6, line 40, leave out from the beginning of the line to the end of line 2 on page 7.

Page 7, line 4, after ("Court") insert ("or Court of Sessions")

line 6, after ("Court") insert ("or Court of Sessions").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13 [Change of address, etc.]:

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My first Amendment is a clarification of the words. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 7, line 14, leave out from ("writing") to ("inquire") in line 16, and insert ("served on any registered person").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

The next Amendment is consequential upon the one just passed. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 7, line 19, after ("send") insert ("to the said person").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14 [Penalty for obtaining registration by false representation]:

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

The Amendment in my name is consequential on the Amendment which was made in Clause 12. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 7, line 29, leave out ("penalty") and insert ("fine").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

The next Amendment in my name is drafting.

Amendment moved—

Page 7, line 30, leave out from ("pounds") to the end of the clause.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15:

Power to make regulations.

15.—(1) The Council shall from time to time make regulations—

  1. (a) Prescribing the fees to be charged in respect of the entry of any name or other particulars on the Register and in respect of the retention in any year of the name of any person on the Register, the fees to be paid by candidates for any examinations held under the provisions of this Act, and the charges to be made for copies of the Register and of any regulations made under the provisions of this Act and of any forms prescribed by such regulations: Provided that out of the total amount received in such fees annually by the Council a sum of not less than fifty per cent. must be devoted in each year by the Council for the purpose of providing scholarships and maintenance grants for the assistance of students of inadequate means.
  2. (b) Prescribing the manlier in which application is to be made for registration under this Act, including the form on which such application is to be made and the information to be supplied thereon;
  3. (c) Generally for carrying out or facilitating the purposes of this Act:

Provided that no regulations relating to the powers and duties of the Education Board or the Admission Committee shall be made by the Council without consultation with the Education Board or the Admission Committee as the case may be.

(2) No regulations made under this Act shall be of any force or validity unless and until they have been approved by the Privy Council. and the Privy Council shall before giving their approval cause the regulations to be published and give persons or organisations to whom regulations are applicable an opportunity of being heard thereon.

(3) The powers conferred on the Privy Council by this section may be exercised by any two or more of the Lords and others for the time being of His Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council.

(4) Any Act of the Privy Council under this section shall be sufficiently signified by an instrument signed by the clerk of the Privy Council, and every order and act signified by an instrument purporting to be so signed shall be deemed to have been duly made and done by the Privy Council, and every instrument purporting to be so signed shall be received in evidence in all courts and proceedings without proof of the authority or signature of the clerk of the Privy Council or other proof.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out from the beginning of the clause down to and including paragraph (5) of subsection (1), and to insert: Subject to the provisions of this Act, regulations made by the Council shall or may, as the case may be, prescribe anything which is by this Act required or authorised to be prescribed, and may further make provision—

  1. (a) prescribing the fee (hereafter in this section referred to as 'a retention fee') to be paid in respect of the retention of any name in the Register during any calendar year subsequent to that in which the name was entered in the Register, and the fees to be paid by candidates for any examination held under this Act;
  2. (b) prescribing the information to be furnished to the Admission Committee or the Council in connection with any application for registration under this Act;
  3. (c) providing (subject to such restrictions or conditions as may be prescribed) for the delegation to committees of any of the functions of the Council other than functions under Section five, Section eight or Section nine of this Act;
  4. (d) regulating the meetings and procedure (including quorum) of the Council, the Board and any committee appointed under this Act:
  5. (e) for the filling of casual vacancies in the Council, the Board and any such committee as aforesaid."

The noble Lord said: This new Clause 15 has Amendments in it that are mainly consequential on other Amendments made in earlier clauses, and an opportunity has been taken to incorporate the substance of paragraphs 3, 4 and 6 of the First Schedule which deal with matters of procedure of the Council which should obviously have been included in the general power of making regulations. They are more appropriate in the body of the Bill than in the Schedule. The proviso to paragraph (a) of subsection (1), which requires the Council to devote half the amount of the fees received annually for the provision of scholarships, is being omitted here, and put into a separate clause. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 32, leave out from the beginning of the line to the end of line 12 on page 8, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

The following Amendments to this clause in my name are drafting. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 8, line 15, leave out from ("regulations") to ("Board") in line 16 and insert ("affecting the")

line 18, leave out ("Education")

line 24, leave out ("or organisations")

line 25, after ("whom") insert ("the").

leave out from ("of") to ("thereon") in line 26, and insert ("making representations to the Privy Council").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to add the following subsection: (5) If any registered person, within the prescribed period after the date on which the Council have caused to be sent to him a written demand for payment of any retention fee payable by him, fails to pay that fee to the Council, the Council may cause his name to be removed from the Register, but if, within the year in respect of which the fee is payable or within such longer period as the Council may allow, the said person pays to the Council the retention fee, together with such additional sum (if any) by way of penalty as may be prescribed, his name shall be restored to the Register, and, if the Council so direct, the restoration shall have effect as from the date on which his name was removed from the Register.

The noble Lord said: This is a new provision which it has been considered wise to insert in order to make it clear that a registered person who fails after due notice to pay his annual retention fee shall not be entitled to remain on the Register. There has been difficulty in this matter experienced in connection with the Dental Register, and it should be put beyond dispute. The present clause follows closely the wording of a similar provision affecting chemists which was included in the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill this Session. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 39, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

I should like to ask the noble Lord whether there is any precedent for this.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I think so.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

Yes.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

It appears to be rather a strong order to enact that a name shall be struck off if a payment is not made and the name restored if payment is made. I am only asking for information.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I think I can answer the noble Marquess by saying that this is not a new provision. I thought I made it clear that in the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill of this Session a very similar clause was inserted.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to insert the following new clause after Clause 15:

Provision of scholarship and maintenance grants.

". At least half the total amount of the fees received in each calendar year by the Council under this Act shall be devoted, in such manner and on such conditions as the Council may determine, to the provision of scholarships and maintenance grants for the assistance of students in architecture whose means appear to the Council to be insufficient to enable them to pursue their studies."

The noble Lord said: This reproduces with just a few drafting Amendments the proviso to paragraph (a) of subsection (1). I beg to move.

Amendment moved— After Clause 15 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16 agreed to.

Clause 17:

Service of notices by post.

(2) Any notice relating to the refusal to register any person, or to the removal from the Register of the name of any registered person, or to the refusal by the Council to permit tile name of any person after removal from the Register to be again entered therein shall be sent by post as a registered letter.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "or to the refusal by the Council to permit the name of any person after removal from the register to be again entered therein." The noble Earl said: This is already provided for and the words are tautological. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 8, leave out from ("person") to ("shall") in line 10.—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 [Saving for other bodies]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out Clause 19. The noble Lord said: I move the omission of this clause because it is quite unnecessary. The only effect of the Bill is to protect the title of registered architects and therefore this clause is not wanted.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 19.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 20 [Application of Act to Scotland]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out Clause 20. The noble Lord said: The omission of this clause is necessary because the reference to the High Court in paragraph (a) is not required in view of Amendments to the clause dealing with right of appeal, and paragraph (b) is open to objection as it is contrary to Scottish procedure.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 20.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

LORD JESSEL

Is it intended by this to omit Scotland altogether?

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

No, Scotland is not omitted, but as it is Contrary to Scottish procedure it is not, advisable to put it in.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 21 [Application of Act to Northern Ireland]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved at the beginning to insert: () Save as otherwise provided in tins Act, this Act shall come into operation on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-two.

The noble Lord said: This is with regard to the date on which the measure shall come into operation. This postponement will be necessary in order that full time shall be given for the work that has to be done before the Act can come into operation, and also so that the Government of Northern Ireland shall be given time to apply the Act to Northern Ireland if they desire to do so before the Act begins to operate. I understand the noble Earl is agreeable to this. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 32, at the beginning insert the said words.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.

First Schedule [Constitution of the Council]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE had Amendments on the Paper to leave out the whole of the First Schedule, except paragraph 5, "The powers of the Council may be exercised notwithstanding any vacancy in their number," arid to insert a new Schedule. The first Amendment was to leave out the first four paragraphs and to insert: 1. Subject to the provisions of this Schedule, the Council shall be composed of the following persons, that is to say:—

  1. (i) one member appointed by the Council of the Royal Institute of British Architects in respect of every five hundred architect members of that Institute, being fellows, associates or licentiates thereof;
  2. (ii) one member appointed by the Council of the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors in respect of every five hundred architect members of that Association, being fellows, associates licentiates thereof;
  3. (iii) one member appointed by the Council of the Faculty of Architects and Surveyors in respect of every five hundred architect members of that Faculty;
  4. (iv) one member appointed by the Council of the Architectural Association (London) in respect of every five hundred architect members of that Association, not being student members;
  5. (v) one member appointed by the Council of the Association of Architects, Surveyors and Technical Assistants in respect of every five hundred architect members of that Association;
  6. (vi) one member appointed jointly by the councils or other governing bodies of the -provincial associations of the bodies mentioned in the foregoing sub-paragraphs, in respect of every five hundred persons who are architect members of one or more of those associations but are not architect members of any of the bodies so mentioned;
  7. (vii) one member (being a registered person) elected in the prescribed manner in respect of every five hundred registered persons, not being architect members of any A the bodies referred to in the foregoing provisions of this Schedule;
  8. (viii) one member appointed by the Council of the Ulster Society of Architects (Incorporated);
    9. 1259
  9. (ix) five members appointed as follows:—

Provided that—

  1. (a) for the purpose of the first constitution of the Council, the provisions of sub-paragraph (vii) of this paragraph shall not apply, and in lieu of the members to be elected under that sub-paragraph the Secretary of State shall, after consultation with the councils of the several bodies referred to in sub-paragraphs (i) to (v) of this paragraph, appoint five members, being persons who appear to the Secretary of State to be in practice as architects but are not architect members of any of the bodies referred to in sub-paragraphs (i) to (vi) of this paragraph; and
  2. (b) a member shall not be appointed by the Governor of Northern Ireland until this Act has come into operation in Northern Ireland.

2. The council of each of the following bodies shall be entitled to appoint as a member of the Council one person, not being a registered person:—

3. For the purpose of computing the number of persons in respect of whom members of the Council are to be appointed or elected under sub-paragraphs (i), (ii), (iii), (iv), (v), (vi) or (vii) of paragraph 1 of this Schedule—

  1. (a) any fraction of five hundred shall be reckoned as five hundred; and
  2. (b) regard shall be had only to persons ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom; and
  3. (c) in relation to any of the bodies referred to in sub-paragraphs (i) to (vi) of the said paragraph, any person being an honorary, corresponding or retired member of that body shall be deemed not to be a member thereof.

4.—(1) For the purpose of the first constitution of the Council, the Secretary of State shall appoint a committee consisting of nine members of whom six shall be persons who appear to the Secretary of State to represent the bodies referred to in sub- paragraphs (i) to (vi) of paragraph 1 of this Schedule, and three shall be persons who have been appointed as members of the Council by the Secretary of State under proviso (a) to that paragraph, and it shall be the duty of that committee to determine for the said purpose, in accordance with this Schedule, the number of persons in respect of whom members of the Council are to be appointed under each of the said sub-paragraphs, and to summon the first meeting of the Council.

(2) The council or other governing body of each of the bodies referred to in the said sub-paragraphs shall furnish to the said committee such information as the committee may reasonably require for the purpose of performing their duties.

(3) Any determination of the said committee under the foregoing provisions at this paragraph shall be final and conclusive and not subject to review in any court.

(4) The quorum of the said committee shall be such number as may be determined by the committee.

(5) Without prejudice to the provisions of Section thirty-seven of the Interpretation Act, 1889, the functions of the said committee shall be exerciseable as from the passing of this Act.

5. Where, by virtue of the provisions of paragraph 1 of this Schedule, any of the bodies referred to in sub-paragraphs (i) to (vi) of that paragraph is on any occasion required to appoint two or more persons as members of the Council, those persons shall be appointed by that body simultaneously.

6. Every member of the Council shall hold office until the expiration of one year from the date of his appointment or election, as the ease may be, so however that a member may at any time resign his office, and a member ceasing to hold office shall be eligible for subsequent appointment or election."

The noble Lord said: Although the entire Schedule has been set out afresh it is not by any means altered in its general provisions. Several necessary alterations have been made. The representation of the President of the Board of Trade on the Council has been struck out as he does not wish to make an appointment and his Department is not concerned with the architectural profession. The machinery in sub-paragraphs (vii) and (ix) of paragraph 1, which deal with temporary appointments made by the Home Secretary to the Council and the constitution of the Preliminary Committee, has been adjusted and made more lucid. Further, the provisos to subparagraph (ix) are out of place. The first proviso is really meaningless as it is drafted. It belongs properly to subparagraph 1 (vi) and its object is apparently to secure that in calculating the membership of the provincial associations regard shall not be had to persons who are already members of the bodies set out in sub-paragraphs (i) to (v). It has, therefore, been redrafted. Paragraph 5 is merely declaratory that appointments of two or more persons by the same body shall be made simultaneously, as is clearly intended. The existing paragraphs 4 and 6, and so much of paragraph 3 as relates to the filling of casual vacancies, have been incorporated in the regulation-making provisions of Clause 15 Where they properly belong. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 4, leave out from the beginning of the line to the end of page 13 and insert the new paragraphs 1 to 6.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

THE EARL OF CBAWFORD

This meets the intentions of the House of Commons but puts it in a much clearer manner. I hope your Lordships will accept the noble Lord's proposal.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out paragraph 6. The noble Lord said: This is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 3, leave out from the beginning of the line to the end of the Schedule.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Second Schedule [Constitution of the Education Board]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

The Amendment standing in my name is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 24, leave out ("education") and at end insert ("of Architectural Education")—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

The Amendments standing in my name are drafting and consequential Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Page 14, line 25, at the beginning insert ("The Board shall be composed of the following persons, that is to say:—")

Page 14, line 25, leave out ("representative of") and insert ("person nominated by")

Page 14, line 27, leave out ("others to be") and insert ("persons")

Page 14, line 30, leave out ("representatives of teaching bodies") and insert ("persons")

Page 14, line 31, at end insert ("being persons who appear to that society to represent teaching bodies")

Page 14, line 32, leave out ("representative of") and insert ("person nominated by")

Page 14, line 36, leave out ("representatives of") and insert ("persons nominated jointly by")

Page 15, line 3, leave out lines 3 to 8 and insert:

("Four persons nominated by the Association of Technical Institutions, being persons who appear to that Association to represent technical institutions teaching architecture and of whom two are members of London institutions and two are members of provincial institutions.

One, person nominated by the National Society of Art Masters, being a person who appears to that Society to represent the art schools teaching architecture.")

Page 15, line 9, leave out ("representative of") and insert ("person nominated by")

Page 15, line 11, leave out ("representative of") and insert ("person nominated by")

Page 15, line 13, leave out ("representatives of and to be") and insert ("persons'')

Page 15, line 37, leave out lines 37 and 38 and insert:

("Twenty-four registered persons nominated by the Council:

Provided that so much of this Schedule as requires the nominees of the Council to be registered persons shall not apply in relation to the first appointment of the Board").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Third Schedule: