§ Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE)My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be read a third time.
§ Moved, That this Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
214§ Resolution without the assistance of noble Lords on this side. I think we should have this further examination, which would enable us to express an opinion upon the Bill with the advantage of all that has been done before us. If there is opposition to any interference with the general principle of law already in existence nothing prevents any noble Lord from taking that point when the matter comes up again. I hope we shall accept the view that has been put forward by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack.
§ On Question, Whether the Motion shall be agreed to?
§ Their Lordships divided: Contents, 33, Not-Contents, 12.
213| CONTENTS. | ||
| Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.) | Mersey, V. | Noel-Buxton, L. |
| Passfield, L. | ||
| Reading, M. | Addington, L. | Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.] |
| Amulree, L. | ||
| Beauchamp, E. | Armstrong, L. | Sempill, L. |
| Effingham, E. | Arnold, L. | Sinclair, L. |
| Iveagh, E. | Askwith, L. | Somerleyton, L. |
| Scarbrough, E. | Camrose, L. | Stanley of Alderley, L. (L. Sheffield.) |
| Strafford, E. | Clwyd, L. | |
| Dickinson, L. | Stanmore, L. | |
| Astor, V. | Ker, L. (M. Lothian.) | Stewart of Garlies, L. (E. Galloway.) |
| Devonport, V. | Lawrence, L. | |
| Esher, V. | Marley, L. [Teller.] | Stonehaven, L. |
| Trenchard, L. |
| NOT-CONTENTS. | ||
| Marlborough, D. | Bridgeman, V. | Danesfort, L. [Teller.] |
| FitzAlan of Derwent, V. | Hayter, L. | |
| Midleton, E. | Howard of Glossop, L. | |
| Vane, E. (M. Londonderry.) | Berwick, L. | Monson, L. |
| Buckmaster, L. [Teller.] | Sandhurst, L. |
§ LORD DANESFORTMy Lords, might I be allowed, before the Question is put, to ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill one or two questions of which I have given him private notice? It appears that the Chinese Government have for some time past been in default on their obligations to the British shareholders in Chinese railways on loans which are guaranteed by China. Now China has made default and has commandeered the rolling stock of those railways. The loan which is proposed to be made to China under this Bill will substantially benefit China and these railways which are in default at the present moment. I am told that China—the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—has recently opened negotiations with England about 215 these defaults. In fact, that was announced in another place only the other day. Perhaps the noble Lord will kindly tell us what is the nature of these negotiations and what China is going to do about its obligations under the guarantees I have mentioned. Are they going to make good these defaults out of money which will be coming to them under this Bill? I venture to suggest to the noble Lord that that would be only reasonable and right. Here we are conferring benefits on China by this Bill. They are in default to our shareholders under their guarantee. Perhaps the noble Lord will be able to reassure us by telling us that before the Chinese get all the benefits which are coming to them under this Bill they will be asked to make good their default. He will also, perhaps, be able to tell us how the negotiations are going on.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for having given me notice of this question which he desires to raise on the Third Reading of this Bill. It is the policy of His Majesty's Government, as it was the policy of their predecessors, to be very careful that this indemnity should not be used as a bargaining counter in getting satisfaction for other claims. As a matter of fact under the Bill a certain amount of money will go into Chinese railways, and therefore their better development will be of benefit to the bondholders. With regard to the negotiations, a Conference was held in November last at Nanking. It was an International Conference and certain documents were submitted by the Chinese Government. It was decided that these documents must be carefully examined by the various Governments who attended the Conference. The Conference was therefore adjourned and a full list of bondholders and claims is being drawn up. No doubt the Conference will meet again at a later date.
§ LORD DANESFORTMay I ask whether any progress has been made in getting this default made good? Has there been any progress in the negotiations?
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDENot since November.
§ On Question, Bill read 3a, and passed.