HL Deb 10 June 1931 vol 81 cc91-8

Order of the Day for receiving the Report of Amendments read.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Strachie, who is unfortunately prevented by illness from being in his place to-day, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Moved, That the Report be new received.—(The Earl of Malmesbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.

Clause 1:

Offices of clerk of county council and clerk of peace to be separate offices.

1, Subject to the provisions of this Act, the office of clerk of the county council and the office of clerk of the peace of the county shall in every county be distinct and separate offices, and so much of Section eighty-three of the Local Government Act, 1888, as requires the clerk of the peace of a county to be also the clerk of the county council shall cease to have effect, but any person holding office as clerk of the peace and county council of any county immediately before the commencement of this Act shall continue to hold both those offices notwithstanding the separation thereof.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY moved to leave out "commencement" and insert "passing." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I must apologise for the very long list of Amendments which stands in my name. I think perhaps it would be convenient to your Lordships if I simplified procedure by explaining the object of the Amendments now while moving the first Amendment. When this Bill passed its Second Reading, and also during the Committee stage, it came before us as an agreed Bill, and I do not want in any way to disturb the general agreement which was arrived at then. This Bill is still an agreed Bill, and when I tell your Lordships that 90 per cent. of the many Amendments in my name are consequential Amendments you will realise that I do not raise any new subject matter. Had my noble friend Lord Strachie been able to be in his place to-day, he would have moved these Amendments himself. It is his own Bill, for which he is responsible. I have had the advantage of some consultation with the noble Lord who will reply on behalf of the Government, and we have come to an entirely satisfactory agreement as to the method by which we shall deal with the Bill at this stage.

Perhaps I had better remind the House that this Bill has been introduced to remedy certain anomalies which have existed in local government administration for over forty years. An attempt was made thirty-two years ago to remedy some of those anomalies, but nothing came of it. If your Lordships will allow me, it will save your time if I now briefly explain the character of the Amendment's. They really are divided into groups. As I have said already, practically all the Amendments are drafting or consequential. The object of the Amendments is to make this Bill more complete, and to carry into effect the result of very satisfactory and happy negotiations with all the parties concerned. These are adumbrated in half a dozen Amendments. There is an Amendment introduced to make this Bill operative anon its passing. That is the first Amendment which stands in my name—Clause 1, page 1, line 17, leave out "commencement" and insert "passing." Through the list of Amendments, your Lordships will doubtless have observed, if you have taken the trouble to look at them, that the word "passing" is used instead of "commencement." The reason for that is this. In the Bill the date at which it is to come into operation is given as January 1, 1932. What we feel is that between the time of the passing of the Bill and the date of its coming into operation there may be certain resignation's and there may be new appointments, and, if so, this Bill would not apply to those new appointments. We therefore desire that it should become operative from the time it receives the Royal Assent.

Then there are a large number of Amendments which are drafting. An Amendment has been introduced to make it quite clear that in cases where the clerk of the peace and the clerk of the county council are one and the same individual he shall cease to hold both offices when he gives up one. The reason is that this Amendment would be more in conformity with subsections (2), (3) and (4) of Clause 4. Confusion would be caused by haphazard appointment and it is only reasonable to assume that if a man became incapable either mentally or physically of carrying out the duties of one office he would certainly be incapable of carrying out the duties of the other. Another drafting Amendment relates to the position of the clerk of the county council. The Bill says that he shall be the clerk of various committees. That is found to be unnecessary and so it may come out.

Then there is a new clause introduced to preserve the right of the county council to receive fees in connection with the deposit of plans. There is also a very important Amendment dealing with the superannuation allowance for the clerk or deputy clerk of the county council who is also clerk or deputy clerk of the peace. It was discovered that somehow or another in the Bill as drafted, if the clerk of the county council was also clerk of the peace, he would only receive superannuation based on his salary as clerk of the county council, omitting his salary as clerk of the peace. By this Amendment the clause will provide that the two salaries be taken together in computing the superannuation allowance.

Finally, there is an Amendment having special reference to the Middlesex County Council. The Middlesex County Council have a special Superannuation Act of their own and it has been found necessary to introduce a clause in this Bill which will safeguard the rights of the Middlesex County Council. I trust that I have in general outline adumbrated the intention of all the Amendments in this somewhat formidable list and that I have shown your Lordships that we are in no way disturbing the position as it was when the Bill went through Second Reading and Committee stages. It is now June 10 and the Committee sat on January 28, so that all parties in any way affected have had ample time and opportunity to negotiate. The Amendments which I now propose have the approval of the Ministry of Health and of all parties concerned.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY)

My Lords, having regard to the speech which the noble Earl has made I think it is advisable that I should put the question generally that these Amendments be agreed to.

Amendments moved—

Clause 1, page 1, line 17, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 3, page 3, line 1, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 3, page 3, line 2, leave out ("the salaries") and insert ("a single salary shall be")

Clause 3, page 3, line 3, leave out ("thereof") and insert ("of both offices and that salary")

Clause 3, page 3, line 6, leave out ("commencement") and insert. ("passing")

Clause 3, page 3, line 9, after ("shall") insert ("as from the date of the passing of this Act")

Clause 3, page 3, line 10, after ("may") insert ("within six months after that date")

Clause 3, Page 4, line 9, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 3, Page 4, line 15, at end insert: ("(4) For the purposes of the last two foregoing subsections, the salary payable to any person who was holding office as clerk of the peace and county council immediately before the commencement of this Act in respect of both these offices shall be deemed to be payable to him in respect of each office.")

Clause 4, page 4,1ine 19, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 4, Page 4, line 21, leave out from the beginning to the end of line 24.

Clause 4, Page 4, line 29, leave out ("the duties of his office with efficiency") and insert ("with efficiency the duties of his office or, if he is the holder of both offices of either office")

Clause 4, Page 4, line 34, at end insert: ("(a) in the case of clerk of the peace who is not also the holder of the office of clerk of the county council")

Clause 4, Page 4, line 36, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 4, Page 4, line 38, leave out ("the")

Clause 4, Page 4, line 39, leave out from ("committee") to ("but") in line 2 of page 5, and insert: ("(c) in the ease of a clerk appointed after the passing of this Act who is the holder of both offices, if and so long as the period of each of these offices is with his consent, extended by resolutions passed for the purpose by the authorities having power under this Act to fill vacancies in those offices.")

Clause 4 Page 5, line 4 at end insert: ("(3) Where the office of clerk of the county council or the office of clerk of the peace of the county has been vacated by any person by reason of the foregoing provisions of this section, that person shall not be eligible for reappointment to either of those offices.")

Clause 4 Page 5, line 26, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 4 Page 5, line 35, leave out ("commencement ("passing")

Clause 4 Page 5, line 43, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 4 Page 5, line 44, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 5, page 6, line 23, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 5, page 6, line 34, leave out from ("committee") to the end of the subsection.

Clause 5, page 6, after line 40, insert the following new clause:

Deposit of plans, &c. with clerk of the Council.

("(1) In any case in which any map, plan or other document of any description is deposited with the clerk of a county council pursuant to the Standing Orders of Parliament or to any Act or rules or regulation made under any Act or by any Government Department there shall be paid to that clerk in respect thereof by the person making the deposit such fees as may be provided by a scale prescribed by the council and approved by the Minister.

(2) The provisions of Section two of the Parliamentary Documents Deposit Act, 1837 (which, as adapted by paragraph (6) of Section eighty-three of the Local Government Act, 1888, relates to the inspection of certain documents deposited with clerks of county councils) shall be extended so as to apply to all maps, plans and other documents which are so deposited with the clerk of a county council as aforesaid.")

Clause 6, page 7, lines 19 and 20, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 6, page 7, line 30, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 6, page 7, line 42, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 7, page 8, line 23, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 8, page 8, line 37, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 8, page 9, line 10, at end insert: ("(c) in the case of any person who, in addition to holding office as clerk of the county council also holds office as clerk of the peace of the county, his salary as clerk of the county council shall, for the purposes of determining the amount of the contributions to be made by and in respect of him and of calculating the amount of any superannuation allowance payable to him under the provisions of Part I of the First Schedule to this Act or of the Act of 1922, be deemed to be increased by an amount equal to his salary as clerk of the peace (including any payments made to him as such for his own use) so, however, that if any such person holds the office of cleric of the peace after having been dismissed from the office of clerk of the county council, any superannuation allowance payable to him in respect of any period while he so holds the office of clerk of the peace shall be of such amount only as would have been payable to him if this paragraph had not been applicable in his case.")

Clause 8, page 9, line 20, after ("his") insert ("voluntarily")

Clause 8, page 9, line 23, leave out from ("then") to the end of line 35, and insert ("for the purposes of the provisions of the First Schedule to this Act or of the Act of 1922 (as the case may be) he shall be deemed voluntarily to have resigned the office of clerk of the county council")

Clause 8, page 9, line 37, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 8, page 9, line 39, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 8, page 9, line 43, leave out ("repay") and insert ("pay")

Clause 8, page 10, line 27, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 8, page 10, line 37, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 8, page 10, line 39, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 8, page 10, line 40, at end insert ("In reckoning for the purposes of this subsection or for the purposes of the said Second Schedule service before the passing of this Act, any portion of a year during which a person has served shall, if it exceeds six months, be reckoned as a year.")

Clause 9, page 11, line 2, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 9, page 11, line 6, leave out ("both")

Clause 9, page 11, line 7, leave out from ("council") to ("be") in line 8.

Clause 9, page 11, line 9, leave out from ("occupy") to end of line 13, and insert ("a post so designated")

Clause 9, page 11, line 13, at end insert: ("(2) Where any person occupying in the service of a county council of any county whereof the council has adopted the Act of 1922, a post designated as an established post for the purposes of that Act, also holds office as deputy clerk of the peace of the county, his salary is an officer or servant of the county council shall, for the purposes of determining the amount of the contributions to be made by and in respect of him and of calculating the amount of any superannuation allowance payable to him under the provisions of the Act of 1922, be deemed to be increased by an amount equal to his remuneration as deputy clerk of the peace:

Provided that—

  1. (a) if any such person holds the office of deputy clerk of the peace after having ceased to hold his office or employment, in the service of the county council, any allowance payable to him in respect of any period while he so holds the office of deputy clerk id the peace shall be of such amount only as would have been payable to him if this subsection had not been applicable in his case; and
  2. (b) in the event of the resignation or dismissal of any such person from the office of deputy clerk of the peace, then, if he continues to occupy in the service of the county council a post designated as an established post, Section eleven of the Act of 1922 (which relates to return of contributions) shall apply in his case as if in the office of deputy clerk of the peace he had occupied a poet designated as an established post for the purposes of that Act in the service of the county council, but the sum payable to him thereunder shall lie a sum equal to the amount by which the contributions made by and in respect of him have been increased by reason of this subsection, and this subsection shall not apply for the purpose of calculating any superannuation allowance payable to him on his ceasing to hold his office or employment in the service of the county council.")

Clause 9, Page 11, line 19, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Clause 10, page 12, line 5, leave out ("or both")

Clause 12, page 13, line 17, leave out ("the salaries") and insert ("a single salary shall be")

Clause 12, page 13, line 18, leave out ("thereof") and insert ("of both offices and that salary")

Clause 12, page 13, line 23, at end insert the following new clause:

special provisions as to county of Middlesex.

("13.—(1) The provisions of subsection (2) of Section four of this Act (relating to the vacation of office on the ground of age) shall not apply as respects the clerk of the peace and county council for the county of Middlesex appointed before the commencement of the Middlesex County Council (General Powers) Act, 1921.

(2) The provisions of this Act relating to superannuation, except paragraph (e) of subsection (1) of Section eight and subsection (2) of Section nine of this Act, shall not apply with respect to the county of Middlesex; and the said paragraph and subsection shall, in their application to that county, have effect as if for the references therein to the First Schedule to this Act, and to the Act of 1922 there were substituted references to the Middlesex County Council Superannuation Acts, 1921 to 1930, as if and for the references therein to a post designated as an established post there were substituted references to a position which constitutes him an 'officer' for the purposes of those Acts.

(3) The provisions of the Middlesex County Council Superannuation Acts, 1921 to 1930, shall have effect subject to the modifications specified in the Third Schedule to this Act.")

Clause 15, page 14, lines 1 and 2, leave out subsection (2).

Clause 15, page 14, lines 10 and 11, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

First Schedule, page 20, line 3, leave out ("of a county council")

First Schedule, page 20, line 10, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing")

Second Schedule, page 22, leave out lines 25 to 28.

Page 22, line 33, at end insert the following new Schedule