HL Deb 07 July 1931 vol 81 cc642-6

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5:

Provisions as to musk rats found at large.

5.—(1) The following provisions of this section shall have effect with respect to musk rats found at large at any time while an order under Section one of this Act is in force.

(3) The appropriate department so soon as they become aware that musk rats, not being musk rats kept under a licence, are to be found on any land, may, unless they are satisfied that either the owner or the occupier of that land is taking all necessary steps for their destruction, themselves take such steps as they consider necessary for that purpose, and it shall be the duty of the occupier of the land to afford all such facilities as it is in his power to afford to any persons employed by, or on behalf of, the department for that purpose.

EARL DE LA WARR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "unless they are satisfied that either the owner or the occupier of that land is taking all necessary steps for their destruction, themselves take such steps as they consider necessary for that purpose," and to insert "take such steps as they consider necessary for their destruction." The noble Earl said: This Amendment was put down at the request of the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, who pointed out on Second Reading that it would he unwise to rely upon the endeavours of the owner or the occupier of the land to take the necessary steps to destroy musk rats on the land, since the trouble would be on too large a scale for any one owner to deal with and would probably spread. I have put this Amendment down in order to give the Department power to carry out any destruction. I think that meets the point.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 15, leave out from ("may") to ("and") in line 19 and insert ("take such steps as they consider necessary for their destruction").—(Earl De La Warr.)

LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM

Does this mean that an official may come all over my laud and destroy foreign animals? I do not think there are any foreign animals there, because I do not like foreign animals; but does it mean that an official may come all over my land and see if he can find a foreign animal?

EARL DE LA WARR

He ought to do so if you let loose musk rats.

On question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6:

Offences, &c.

6. Any person who—

  1. (a) at a time when the importation of musk rats is prohibited absolutely, imports, or attempts to import, any musk rat into Great Britain, or at a time when such importation is prohibited except under a licence, imports or attempts to import, any musk rat into Great Britain without having in force a licence authorising him so to do; or
  2. (b) at a time when the keeping of musk rats is prohibited absolutely, keeps any musk rat in Great Britain, or at a time when the keeping of musk rats is prohibited except under a licence, keeps any musk rat in Great Britain without having in force a licence authorising him so to do; or

(d) turns loose any musk rat, or wilfully allows any musk rat to escape; or

shall be guilty of an offence under this Act, and shall on summary conviction be liable—

in the case of an offence under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of this subsection, to a penalty of twenty pounds, or if the offence was committed in respect of more than four animals, to a penalty of five pounds in respect of each animal;

in the case of an offence under paragraph (d) or paragraph (e), to a penalty of twenty pounds; and

EARL DE LA WARR moved, in the first paragraph defining penalties, after "paragraph (a)", to leave out "or" The noble Earl said: During the Second Reading the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie of Thame, raised the point that the penalty for turning loose musk rats was really too slight, and that it. would he desirable to have the same penalty for this offence as for the offences under paragraphs (a) and (b) of this clause. The Amendments are put down to meet his point, which we consider a valid one.

Amendment moved—

Page 4, line 20, leave out ("or").—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL DE LA WARR

My next two Amendments are consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 21, after ("paragraph (b)") insert ("or paragraph (d)")

Page 4, line 30, leave out ("paragraph (d) or").—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7:

Compensation.

7.—(1) If an order is made under Section one of this Act prohibiting absolutely the keeping of musk rats, any person who on the date of the order and on the twenty-fourth day of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-one, was keeping musk rats for profit in Great Britain shall, subject to the provisions of the next succeeding subsection, be entitled to receive from the appropriate department compensation in respect of any pecuniary loss which be may suffer by reason of his being required in consequence of the making of the order to destroy those musk rats and in respect of the value of any structure or equipment erected or provided by him which is rendered useless, or of less utility, by reason of the prohibition contained in the order.

EARL DE LA WARR

My first two Amendments to this clause are drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 5, line 12, leave out ("the next succeeding subsection") and insert ("this section")

Page 5, line 17, leave out ("those") and insert ("his").—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

EARL DE LA WARR moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert: Provided that the compensation payable to a person under this section shall not in any case exceed the amount which would be payable to him if he had, at the date when the order came into operation, possessed only the same number of musk rats and the like structures and equipment as he possessed on the said twenty-fourth clay of June. The noble Earl said: The clause as at present drafted does not make it quite clear that the owner of musk rats in the event of an order being made prohibiting the keeping of musk rats altogether should be entitled to compensation only in respect of his losses as from the date of the introduction of this Bill. After the passing of the Bill it is intended that musk rats shall be kept entirely at the owner's risk,, subject in the event of total prohibition to the owner being compensated for such loss as he would have sustained if he had not been allowed to keep and breed musk rats from the date of the passing of this Bill. The object of this Amendment is to make that purpose somewhat clearer.

Amendment moved Page 5, line 20, at end insert the said new proviso.—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to.

Clause 10:

Power to extend provisions of Act to other destructive foreign animals.

(2) In this section, the expression "foreign mammalian species" means a mammalian species which at the date of the commencement of this Act was not established in a wild state in Great Britain, or which at that date was not commonly kept in Great Britain in a domesticated state.

EARL DE LA WARR moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "or which at that date was not" and to insert: had only become so established during the preceding fifty years: Provided that nothing in this section shall apply to any species which was at the said date The noble Earl said: As the clause is drafted, it might permit the Minister to issue an order prohibiting the keeping of domestic cats and various other animals. Accordingly it is proposed to insert this Amendment limiting the power of the Minister to deal with animals that have been imported within the last fifty years.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 31, leave out from ("or") to ("commonly") in line 32, and insert ("had only become so established during the preceding fifty years: Provided that nothing in this section shall apply to any species which was at the said date").—(Earl De La Warr.)

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

I should like to ask the noble Earl on this point why this is limited to foreign mammalian species. Is there already power to deal with everything except mammals, or is it assumed that everything but mammalian species is necessarily harmless? I have a recollection of certain ticks which were supposed to come from a remote part of the globe and to be very damaging and venomous. I dare say that there is a. very good reason for limiting the Bill in that way, but I should be reassured if I knew what the reason was.

EARL DE LA WARR

I think I can reassure the noble and learned Viscount. We have made careful inquiries about all other animals and insects, and we find that they can be dealt with under existing legislation.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.