ANCIENT MONUMENTS BILL. [H.L.]

HL Deb 19 February 1931 vol 79 cc1166-70

Read 3^a (according to Order).

Clause 5:

Amendment as to voluntary contributions.

5.—(1) The Commissioners shall have power under Section nine of the principal Act to receive voluntary contributions towards the cost of the maintenance and preservation of any ancient monument, and to enter into any agreement with the owner of any such monument or with any other person as to the maintenance and preservation of the monument and the cost thereof, notwithstanding that the Commissioners are not the owners or guardians of the monument.

(2) For the purpose of the said section, the expression "preservation of the monument" shall include the preservation of the amenities of the monument.

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE)

My Lords, on this Bill there was a point raised in Committee with regard to the words "any other person" in Clause 5. The noble Earl, Lord Peel, and others, I think, thought these words were rather too vague, and that the Bill should be amended so that the agreements could be made with the owner or leaseholder of the monument. The words that are complained of occur already in Section 9 of the 1913 Act, of which I have a copy. The object of them was to enable the Office of Works to receive voluntary contributions for the maintenance of ancient monuments in their charge. This provision, as the noble Earl, Lord Peel, would know were he here, has been very useful in practice, and the main object of Clause 5 of the Bill is to enable the Office of Works similarly to receive voluntary contributions towards the cost of preservation schemes for the surroundings of the monument, and towards the cost of works upon the monument which the owners wish the Office of Works to repair without handing over the guardianship. These contributions might be received as a result of agreements with owners, leaseholders, or adjoining owners, or societies interested in the preservation of ancient monuments or their surroundings. The source from which the Office of Works obtain money in this way concerns themselves alone, and after looking into the question carefully I have come to the conclusion that the words should be kept in the Bill.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for having written to me on this matter. I can only speak for myself, of course, as I have not had the opportunity of seeing my noble friend Earl Peel to discuss the matter with him, but for myself I am quite content as the words already appear in the Act of 1913 and have never caused any difficulty.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I saw the noble Earl, Lord Peel, yesterday on the subject and he is satisfied.

LORD DANESFORT

My Lords, I should like to ask whether the noble Lord is satisfied that it will not give any other person the opportunity of making agreements as to the maintenance and preservation of the monument which might be prejudicial to the owner. I quite understand it is right that any person should be able to contribute, but what I fear is that there may be some possibility of someone entering into an agreement with the Commissioners as to the monument—the words are "maintenance and preservation"—which might be prejudicial to the owner. Perhaps the noble Lord could reassure me on that point.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I do not think that fear need be entertained.

Clause 8:

Dissolution of special incorporation of Commissioners.

8. The corporation of the Commissioners as incorporated for the purposes of the principal Act by subsection (1) of Section twenty of that Act is hereby dissolved, and all property, powers, rights and duties vested in and exercised and performed by the Commissioners as a corporation incorporated under that subsection are hereby vested in and may be exercised and performed by the Commissioners as the corporation confirmed by the Works and Public Buildings Act, 1874."

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME had given Notice to move, after "rights," to insert "obligations." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, since putting this Amendment on the Paper, I have been informed that there are no obligations on the part of the Commissioners. If the noble Lord will assure me that that is the case, I will not move the Amendment.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I am advised that that is the case.

Clause 13:

Expenses of Commissioners.

13. All expenses incurred by the Commissioners under this Act shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament.

LORD DANESFORT had given Notice to move, after "Act," to insert "including any compensation payable by the Commissioners under this Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I raised this point in Committee because it did not seem to me at all certain that the words "expenses incurred by the Commissioners" would include compensation payable under the Act. Since Report stage the noble Lord in charge of the Bill has been good enough to tell me that those words have occurred in previous Acts, including the Town Planning Act, 1925, and the Housing Act, 1925, and that, although there has been no legal interpretation given to the words "expenses incurred," in many cases compensation has actually been paid under those Acts under the words "expenses incurred." With that assurance on the part of the noble Lord—of course, I accept his assurance—it does not seem to me to be necessary to move this Amendment.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I cannot say that I share the satis- faction expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Danesfort. If the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will look at the Agricultural Land (Utilisation) Bill, he will see that Clause 1 (5) says: The Minister, as respects land in England, and the Department of Agriculture for Scotland, as respects land in Scotland, shall have power to acquire land otherwise than by agreement for the purpose of vesting the land in the corporation, so, however, that the compensation and other expenses of acquiring any such land shall be defrayed by the corporation. There is a distinct difference there between compensation and the expense of the acquisition of land. I am not at all satisfied.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

My attention has not been called to the particular instance which the noble Viscount has quoted, but I am advised that there is an established practice to construe the expression in this way, and that there is no case in which it has been suggested that the construction is inaccurate.

LORD DANESFORT

May 1, by leave of the House, in view of this rather important reference made by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, to this other Bill, in which compensation is specially mentioned as well as expenses, ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill if, when the Bill goes elsewhere, he will call the attention of the legal advisers of the Government to this point and, if it is found desirable, put in the words suggested?

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I will do that.

Clause 14:

Interpretation.

(3) For the purposes of this Act and of Section six of the principal Act, the expression "owner" in relation to a monument shall mean any person (other than a mortgagee not in possession) entitled (either with or without the consent of any other person) to dispose of the fee simple of the site of the monument.

LORD DANESFORT moved, in subsection (3), after "possession," to insert "but including a mortgagee in possession." The noble Lord said: My Lords, on the Report stage I had some grave misgivings as to whether in this clause the word "owner" would include a mortgagee in possession. It is obviously desirable that a mortgagee in possession who has got control of the property and is presumably interested in it and may even sell it, should be included in the word "owner," so that he would be entitled to get notice and be able to make objections in the same way as an owner. The noble Lord has been good enough since Report stage to write to me and tell me that where a mortgagee in possession has real control of the property and would be entitled to sell, there is no doubt he would be included in the definition of "owner" under the words of the Bill. I must abide by the decision of his legal advisers and if he assures me that a mortgagee in possession and entitled to dispose of the property would be included in the word "owner," I will not press the Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 30, after ("possession") insert ("but including a mortgagee in possession").—(Lord Danesfort.)

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I have had the question examined very carefully, and that is so.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Second Schedule: