§ Provisions as to Confirmation, Variation and Revocation of Preservation Schemes.
§ 1. Before confirming a preservation scheme (hereafter in this Schedule referred to as a "scheme"), the Commissioners shall cause to be published in the London Gazette, and in such other manner as they think best for informing persons affected, notice of their intention to confirm the scheme, of the place where copies thereof may be inspected, and of the time within which and the manner in which representations with respect to the scheme may he made, and shall cause such notice as aforesaid to be given to every local authority whose area comprises any part of the controlled area.
§ 2. No scheme shall be confirmed until after the expiration of three months from the time when the notice referred to in the last preceding paragraph was published in the London Gazette.
1012§ 3. The Commissioners, after considering any representations duly made with respect to a scheme, and after consulting the Minister of Health, may by order confirm the scheme either with or without modifications:
§ Provided that a scheme as so confirmed shall not apply to any area to which it would not have applied if it had been confirmed without modification.
§ 4. A scheme when so confirmed shall come into force on such date as may be specified in the order confirming it.
§ 5. A scheme may be varied or revoked by a subsequent scheme made under the provisions of this Act, and the Commissioners may, after consulting the Minister of Health, by order revoke a scheme if they think in the circumstances that the scheme ought to be revoked.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, in provision 1, after "time," to insert "(which shall not be less than three months)." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this and the other Amendments I have to move to the First Schedule are a result of an undertaking I gave on the Committee stage. The Government propose that the time within which representations with respect to a draft scheme may be made shall be not less than three months. This makes paragraph 2 as it stood superfluous. The Office of Works clearly cannot confirm the scheme until after the expiration of three months, and therefore it is proposed to leave out the second paragraph. The Government then propose that objections to a scheme must be made in writing, stating the specific grounds of objection and the specific modifications required; and they propose that the Office of Works should have to consider objections as well as representations. That I promised in Committee. These Amendments are based on Sections 80 and 81 of the Factory and Workshops Act, 1901, and the Schedule of the Gas Regulation Act of 1920. Lord Cranworth's Amendments have been incorporated as far as possible. They were also based on the Factory and Workshops Act. The last Amendment provides that the Office of Works may make rules for the holding of such inquiries, which rules may contain provisions as to the costs of the inquiries. Lord Cranworth's Amendments did not provide for this, but some direction as to procedure is necessary, and under the Factory and Workshops Act the Minister may make such rules while under the Town Plan- 1013 ning Act of 1925 the Minister may direct how and in what proportion costs are to be paid. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 10, alter ("time") insert ("(which shall not be less than three months)").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendments moved—
§
Page 14, line 15, leave out paragraph 2 and insert:
("2. Any person affected by the scheme may, within the time appointed under the last foregoing paragraph for making representations, send to the Commissioners written objection to the scheme stating the specific grounds of objection and the specific modifications required.")
§ Page 14, line 18, after ("representations") insert ("and objections")
§ Page 14, line 20, alter ("Health") insert ("and the Minister of Transport")
§
Page 14, line 22, after ("that") insert:
("(a) where an objection has been duly made to the scheme by any person appearing to the Commissioners to be affected thereby and has not been withdrawn, the Commissioners, unless they consider the objection to be frivolous or have modified the scheme as required by the objection, shall, before confirming the scheme, direct a public inquiry to be held as hereinafter provided and consider the report of the person who held the inquiry; and
(b)")
§
Page 14, line 24, at end insert:
("4. Any inquiry under this Schedule shall he held in accordance with rules made by the Commissioners for the purpose, and such rules may contain provisions as to the costs of the inquiry.")
§ Page 14, line 28, leave out ("made under the provisions of this Act").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ LORD PONSONBY SHULBREDE moved, after the First Schedule, to insert the following new Schedule:—
§ Provisions as to Compensation.
§ "1. No person shall be entitled to compensation in respect of a preservation scheme unless within three months from the date on which the scheme comes into force, or within such further time as the Commissioners may in special circumstances allow, he makes a claim for the purpose in such manner as the Commissioners may by regulations prescribe.
§ "2. A person shall not be entitled to compensation by reason of the fact that any act or thing done or caused to be done by him has been rendered abortive by a preservation scheme, if or so far as the act or thing was done after toe date on which the Commissioners published in the London 1014 Gazette notice of their intention to confirm the scheme, or by reason of the fact that the performance of any contract made by him after that date is prohibited by the scheme.
§ "3. Where any provision of a preservation scheme was, immediately before the scheme came into force, already in force by virtue of this or any other Act, no compensation shall be payable by reason of any property being injuriously affected by that provision of the preservation scheme if compensation has been paid, or could have been claimed, or was not payable, by reason of that property having been injuriously affected by the provision already in force.
§ "4. Where any provision of a preservation scheme could, immediately before the scheme came into force, have been validly included in a scheme, order, regulation or by-law by virtue of any other Act, then—
- (a) if no compensation would have been payable by reason of the inclusion of that provision in that scheme, order, regulation or by-law, no compensation shall be payable in respect of that provision of the preservation scheme; and
- (b) if compensation would have been so payable, the compensation payable in respect of that provision of the preservation scheme shall not he greater than the compensation which would have been so payable.
§ "5. Any dispute as to whether any property is injuriously affected by a preservation scheme, or as to the amount of the sum which is to be paid as compensation in respect of such a scheme, shall be determined by arbitration under and in accordance with the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919."
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a new Schedule. The original Schedule dropped out when Clause 2 was removed in Committee and it is restored by this new Schedule. An Amendment has been made in paragraph 1 on the lines of one which was put down by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, on the Committee stage, but which he had not an opportunity of moving. This is an extension of the time within which claims for compensation may be made beyond the rigid limit of three months. The time will be three months or such further time as the Commissioners may, in special circumstances, allow. Otherwise there are only small verbal alterations. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 15, insert the said new Schedule.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrerle.)
§
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to amend the proposed Amendment by inserting at the end of paragraph (1) "and if no such regulations are for the time being in force, then such claims shall be in writing and be signed by him or his
1015
duly authorised agent." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for having given this extra time, but I desire that the noble Lord's Amendment shall be amended by adding at the end of paragraph (1) the words on the Paper. Suppose there were no regulations in force for the time being, then the wretched applicant will not be able to make any objection at all. You have only to remember what happened in the case of the Irish Settlement Act with regard to the election of Irish Peers. The office of the only person who could call the Irish Peers together was abolished, and so there is no machinery for their election. The noble Lord moved an Amendment to the first Schedule to leave out paragraph 2 and to insert:—
Any person affected by the scheme may, within the time appointed under the last foregoing paragraph for making representations, send to the Commissioners written objection to the scheme stating the specific grounds of objection and the specific modifications required.
§ If it can be done there, surely it can be done in ordinary writing without any rules being prescribed. For those reasons I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
§
Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
At end of paragraph 1 insert ("and if no such regulations are for the time being in force, then such claims shall be in writing and be signed by him or his duly authorised agent").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEMy Lords, I really do not think that the case which the noble Viscount describes could possibly arise. The Commissioners will obviously make regulations applicable to every case. Unless they do so they cannot work the provisions of the Schedule. I do not think the Amendment is really necessary.
§ On Question, Amendment to the proposed Amendment negatived.
§ LORD DANESFORTMy Lords, may I now raise the general question of compensation and where it is to come from? We have already, to-day, carried an Amendment to Clause 1 providing—
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEI should like to know what particular Amendment the noble Lord is on. I understood that we had gone through all the Amendments.
§ LORD DANESFORTI am on the proposal that this new Schedule be inserted in the Bill. The question whether this new Schedule should stand part of the Bill has not been put. I am speaking on that general question, and I want to ask where this compensation is to come from. We have this afternoon passed an Amendment to Clause 1 that
Any person whose property is injuriously affected by the coming into force of a preservation scheme shall be entitled to obtain compensation in respect thereof from the Commissioners, subject to the provisions of the Second Schedule to this Act.There is nothing in the Bill to say where this compensation is to come from. It is not to come from the Commissioners' own pockets, I presume, and it must come, I take it, from moneys provided by Parliament.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEIf the noble Lord will look at Clause 13 of the Bill he will see that it provides that "all expenses incurred by the Commissioners under this Act shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament."
§ LORD DANESFORTWell, I confess, it did not strike me that that would extend to compensation. I thought it referred only to expenses incurred in the normal working of the Act. if that is what it means, I really think it is important that it should he made clear before the Bill leaves this House that the expenses mentioned in Clause 13 are to include compensation. I do not think it is clear as it stands. The clause refers to expenses incurred under the Act. Compensation is hardly an expense incurred. It is a liability which the Commissioners are under in certain cases where a claim for compensation arises. I would ask the noble Lord on Third Reading to put into Clause 13, after the words "all expenses incurred," the words "including compensation payable under this Act." That would make it clear. We do not want to have legal discussions as to where compensation is to come from, and we do not want to be told that there is no provision for making compensation.
§ LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDEI think it is absolutely clear in Clause 13. That clause says "all expenses incurred by the Commissioners under this Act," and compensation is obviously one 1017 of the expenses that is going to be incurred. I think the noble Lord will find that the clause entirely covers the point.
§ EARL PEELMy Lords, is the noble Lord really quite clear about this? Would such an important matter as compensation really be covered by the expenses of the Commissioners? One would really think that expenses related to out-of-pocket expenses and small matters of that, kind. Is the noble Lord quite clear that the actual compensation for land taken, and for action taken in the preservation of these amenities, and for land adjoining these ancient monuments, is to be paid under this clause? I think it is an unusual form anyhow.
LORD PONSONBY or SHULBREDEI personally have no doubt in my own mind, but as such an authority as a former First Commissioner of Works says that it is not absolutely clear, I will consult my advisers to see that the point is made clear and is put beyond doubt before Third Reading. But so far as I am advised Clause 13 covers the point completely.
§ EARL PEELI wonder whether the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would give us his opinion on the subject? H he would do that I should be quite content.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY)My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, proposes to consider the matter with his advisers I do not think it, necessary for me to say anything at this moment. But I am obliged to the noble Earl for his appeal to me.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.