Lords Sitting of 27 November 1930

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

HEATHFIELD AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1930.
PLYMOUTH AND STONEHOUSE GAS ORDER, 1930.
STOKE-ON-TRENT GAS ORDER, 1930.
YORKTOWN (CAMBERLEY) AND DISTRICT GAS AND ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1930.
ROCHESTER, CHATHAM AND GILLINGHAM GAS ORDER, 1930.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD MARLEY): My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Orders reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last be approved.
Moved, That the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.— (Lord Marley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the First Report by the Select Committee.
The Committee reported as follows: —
1. RE-APPOINTMENT OF SUB-COMMITTEES.
The following Sub-Committees were appointed:—
(i) Sub-Committee of the Library:—
Marquess of Crewe, Earl of Ilchester,Lord Wigan (Earl of Crawford), Lord Hylton, Lord Colebrooke,Lord Ernle, Lord Darling, LordMacmillan, with the Clerk of the Parliaments,
(ii) Sub-Committee on the Refreshment Department:—
Earl of Lucan, Lord Stanmore, with the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Clerk of the Parliaments.
The Sub-Committee wore instructed to co-opt two other members to serve upon the Sub-Committee.
(iii) Sub-Committee on the offices of Clerk of the Parliaments and the Clerk Assistant:—
The Chairman of Committees, Marquess of Bath, Earl of Plymouth, Lord Stanmore, Lord Marks.
2. ESTIMATES.
The Estimate for the House of Lords Offices for the year ending 31st Maroh, 1932, was laid before the Committee and approved.
3. ANNUAL ACCOUNT OF THE FEE FUND.
The account of the Fee Fund of the House of Lords for the year ended 31st March, 1930, was laid before the Committee.
4. LIGHTING OF THE CORRIDORS OF THE HOUSE.
The Committee, while recognising that certain alterations in the lighting of the corridors of the House, proposed by the Office of Works, are attractive, and that it is desirable that they should be carried out at some future date, were unable at the present time, in view of the necessity for economy, to recommend any change in the system of lighting.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now considered and adopted.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question., Motion agreed to.

INDIA: ROUND-TABLE CONFERENCE.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM VISCOUNT BURNHAM had the following Notice on the Paper—To ask His Majesty's Government—

1. What record will be made of the proceedings of the Round-Table Conference in Committee, as the sittings will be held in camera, and whether such report will be available, after the conclusion of the Conference, for the information of Parliament in view of subsequent legislation;

2. In what form the findings of the Conference will be presented to both Houses;

3. How the assent or dissent of the various delegations or delegates to such proposals as may be made will be expressed and notified;

And to move for Papers.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I only wish to say in preface to the Questions I have put on the Paper that I much regret—and I believe the feeling is common in your Lordships' House—that the noble Earl opposite has been debarred for some reason of which I am not aware from giving the Round-Table Conference the great benefit of his ripe experience. I beg to put the Questions which stand in my name on the Paper.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (EARL RUSSELL): My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Viscount for his kind reference to myself, but I may say that so far as my knowledge of India is worth anything it is available for the Conference, because, although I am not, as he truly says, a full delegate, almost the only activity from which I am debarred is that of speaking, and there is perhaps no great harm in that. So far as the Questions of the noble Viscount on the Paper are concerned, I am hound to say that he seems to me to be, if I may say so, rather in a hurry. The Conference last week held plenary sessions on five days and verbatim reports of the speeches made were given to the Press, so that all the information as to what took place at those plenary sittings is available.
The Conference has so far held only one meeting in Committee—on Monday—and he now wants to know all about what record is to be made and what is to be said about it. The noble Viscount, if I may respectfully say so, seems to me a little like some one who is anxious to keep on pulling up a plant to see how it is growing. But I can give him some information, although I do not know how far it will be satisfactory. We cannot say, of course, at this moment exactly in what form the record will be made available to Parliament at the conclusion of the Conference. Probably the procedure adopted after the Imperial Conference is likely to be closely followed. In that case a White Paper was presented, when the proceedings were concluded, which contained a full and general summary of the conclusions come to and a record of all the proceedings on which the summary is based. I do not suppose that the noble Viscount is asking that verbatim reports of every speech made in Committee should be published and printed at the public expense. I
364
am quite sure that the Stationery Office would have something to say to such a proposal, and I very much doubt whether any human being would read through the whole of it.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: An adequate summary is what I meant.
EARL RUSSELL: If I may say so, the communiqués issued from day to day will, I think, give a very adequate summary of what takes place. An adequate summary appeared on Tuesday morning of what took place in the Committee on Monday, but how far the summary will be adequate depends perhaps on the view taken by the noble Viscount. It certainly will not conceal anything, but will put before the public the general view that was taken, the amount of disagreement with it and the conclusion that was arrived at. As to the precise form in which records are to be drawn up, that is of course a matter for the Conference to settle, but the records will show the extent to which propositions agreed to were unanimously agreed to, or what dissent there was, and I suppose that this would satisfy the noble Viscount.
The Conference can hardly yet be said to be engaged in its detailed task, but I can give the House some account of the position at this moment. The Committee that was appointed to consider federal relations has decided to co-opt, and has in fact co-opted, the whole of the rest of the Conference upon it, and has thereby become a Committee almost impossible for business purposes. I think the noble Marquess opposite will agree. To-morrow at three o'clock that Committee is meeting and is going to consider certain heads for discussion, which have been kindly drawn up by the Lord Chancellor and which, I think have been published or at any rate mentioned in the public Press, and it will then decide what Committees should be set up to deal with those points. Possibly there may previously be a general discussion upon the rather novel suggestions regarding federal relations that emerged in the discussions of the plenary session. Those deliberations will then, no doubt, go on for some considerable time.
I cannot predict, and no one can predict, how soon conclusions may be arrived at or how far agreement will be reached. The noble Viscount is quite as well able to judge of that point as I

365
am. We cannot, therefore, at this time indicate with any precision the detailed lines upon which the Conference will proceed, nor can we indicate, in the absence of any knowledge as to the nature of the outcome of its deliberations, exactly what steps we may be called upon to ask Parliament to take in order to deal with the Resolutions. I think that if the noble Viscount were to repeat his Question in two months' time, or perhaps three months' time, I might be in a position to give him more information. All I can say generally is that neither Parliament nor the public will be left in ignorance of what is going on. I hope that I have told the noble Viscount what he wants to know.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I desire to add only one or two words to what has already passed. I think that the object of my noble friend, in asking his Questions, is to call the attention of the Government to the enormous importance of Parliament, and indeed British public opinion, being fully informed of what happens in the Conference and the conclusions at which they arrive.
EARL RUSSELL: Hear, hear.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I observed the other day that the Prime Minister, speaking in the Conference, said in an eloquent passage that not only were representatives of British India and the Princes present, but also the House of Lords and the House of Commons. I do not desire, of course, to make any pedantic criticism of a rhetorical statement, but, of course, we must realise that, important as are the British delegates at the Round Table Conference, they are not plenipotentiaries. It is Parliament and the country who have ultimately to decide. I am sure that the noble Earl would not think that I want to derogate from the great responsibility that rests upon British delegates in that Conference, but still it must be clearly realised that it is the British Parliament, your Lordships' House and—I am quite ready to admit that this is even more important—the House of Commons, w ho really have ultimately to come to the decision.
Perhaps there is some danger of ignoring the very great importance of British public opinion in this connection. I
366
think perhaps that even we ourselves are inclined to under-rate that public opinion and its importance, and I am quite sure that visitors from the other side of the world, who do not know England so well as we do, are even more liable to make a mistake. When you see a body of ordinary Englishmen, even members of the House of Commons—I do not want to be the least bit rude—they are not impressive; and yet they are part. of this great governing race to which we belong, with the same instincts, the same administrative capacity, the same organising ability and the same resolution as their predecessors. It is not true to suppose that since we have passed from an aristocratic or oligarchic government the British people and their representatives are essentially changed. That is not the ease. They are all, if I may use a colloquial phrase, cut out of the same block and they have all the same great qualities. It is to these modern democratic representatives that the appeal must be made, and it is vitally important that they should be fully informed. It is for that reason that I have ventured to add these very few words lest there should be any mistake on that head.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, if I may speak again by leave of the House, I think the noble Marquess is really in this matter forcing an open door. No one, I think, recognises more clearly than my right hon. friend the Secretary of State that Parliament is the ultimate arbitrator in this matter. I myself said so in answer to a Question asked some months ago by the noble Viscount opposite. We also recognise, of course, that for any settlement or any solution to be satisfactory, we shall have to carry with us the general sense of Parliament, and I think the noble Marquess does not go too far when he suggests that we should also have to carry with us the general sense of this country. My right hon. friend is fully aware of those considerations, and I think none of us will make the mistake of thinking that we are plenipotentiaries and have power to decide exactly what we like without reference to Parliament.
VISCOUNT BURNHAM: My Lords, I put these Questions down solely for the purpose of obtaining information, not only for your Lordships' House but for

367
the British public, as my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition has just said. I was very fearful that in Committee we might begin on that system of mystification of which there has already been a great deal too much in regard to Indian affairs, and the danger to-day, of course, is that it is particularly true of India, as of all other Oriental countries, that, to use their own proverb, "Walls have ears," and constantly rumours are getting into the newspapers, whereas it is of the first importance that your Lordships and the members of the House of Commons should have an accurate account of what actually takes place.
So far as I understand the reply of the noble Earl, the Conference has got back to the point at which it started. After the discussions at the plenary Conference of last week, of which verbatim reports were furnished to the Press and adequate reports were published, it is now once more in Committee of the whole House. That means that they have to re-form the Committees, which may or may not
368
be on the lines suggested by the noble Lord on the Woolsack, but they have to start again. Some difficulties will occur, and every minority demands representation, and I fear that the result cannot in the nature of things be very happy. I suppose there are a certain number of members of the Conference—and I say it without any offence—who do not wish, to use Dr. Johnson's famous phrase, "to lose the grandeur of generalities." All I am afraid of is that things have been allowed to drift so far. As I ventured to warn the House before the Prorogation, the Government had not drawn up or even conceived any form of procedure for the Conference, or any agenda paper. I thought that that would lead to a fatal issue, and already, I think, the skies are dark. We must hope, however, that the Conference may arrive at a conclusion for the common good of the Empire, and particularly for the peoples of India. I do not press for Papers.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before five o'clock.