HL Deb 27 May 1930 vol 77 cc1088-93

Order of the Day read for receiving the Report of Amendments.

THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL DE LA WARR)

My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Earl De La Warr.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, upon that Motion I would like to say that we on this side of your Lordships' House are placed in great difficulty because the Amendment Paper may be said to a large extent to have come into our hands only this morning. There are on the Paper a large number of Government Amendments which are "starred." That is to say, Notice of those Amendments was only given last night, and, as I am informed, very late at night. I make no complaint of course of the way in which the noble Earl has conducted the Bill. It has been an experience of great courtesy as far as he is concerned and he has been very conciliatory. But the conduct of the Bill in Committee had the result that it was transformed in many respects. Whole pages of Amendments were inserted—Amendments not merely of a drafting character but Amendments of substance. Personally I was quite aware that the noble Earl would find it very difficult to arrange his Amendments for the Report stage within the time allotted.

No doubt the noble Earl was anxious to get his Bill through, and I hope he will get the Bill through if it deserves to be got through. But the time allotted was really quite insufficient, and now when we look at the Amendments—I am not pronouncing any opinion on them, because for one thing it would be out of order at this moment, and besides I do not wish to anticipate what the opinion of your Lordships' House may be—we find that a great many of the Government Amendments are Amendments of substance dealing with such matters as the Court of Appeal and what questions should be subject to the Court of Appeal under the provisions of the Bill. All these matters are very intricate and very difficult, and require very careful consideration. Really it is quite impossible for as to consider them between, perhaps, ten o'clock this morning and the meeting of your Lordships' House. That is all the time we have had and we have had no opportunity, of course, of consulting those who advise us in these matters—the representatives of local authorities and of existing drainage boards, not to speak of draftsmen and important officials of that description.

In those circumstances, I desire to make an appeal to the Leader of the House and to suggest to him that it would really be most unwise to take the Bill now. The result might be that we should get the thing into a most tremendous tangle and we might be in the position of sending this Bill back to another place in a condition of which we should not be very proud. I hope your Lordships will agree with my suggestion and that the Leader of the House will be good enough to take into consideration our unfortunate plight and give us a little more time.

EARL DE LA WARR

My Lords, the noble Marquess has appealed to the Leader of the House, but I think that I—

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

If you please.

EARL DE LA WARR

I think I can give the noble Marquess the necessary information regarding this Bill. This is rather a shock to me, because it is the very first word that I have heard of any request to postpone this Bill. It was mentioned last week that possibly a week before Report was not long enough, but I think it was then settled between us that, if on Thursday any of the supporters of the noble Marquess still felt that it was undesirable to take the Bill to-day, then he would inform me to that effect. If, on the other hand, the representatives of the Ministry of Agriculture felt that it was difficult to have their Amendments ready, then I was to inform the noble Marquess. As nothing was said on Thursday, naturally—

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The noble Earl, I am afraid, entirely mistakes me. He has most accurately described what passed, but this is a matter of substance. We did not know what Amendments the noble Earl was going to put upon the Paper. If they had been drafting Amendments, or merely designed to carry out arrangements foreshadowed in Committee, or similar Amendments such as we are very familiar with, it would be a different matter; but important Amendments of substance are included.

EARL DE LA WARR

I was just coming to that. Really there is no substantial Amendment upon the Paper the principle of which has not been discussed very thoroughly in Committee. I think the main discussion would probably take place on Clause 2, on which we had the principal discussion before, in relation to the application of the clause regarding the appeal tribunal to the various parts of the Bill. That is really the main question that will have to be settled to-day, and I venture to suggest to your Lordships that it is one that has been discussed over and over again in Committee and one with which your Lordships are fully familiar.

Perhaps it would not be out of place if I laid before your Lordships the position of this Bill and the time that we have already taken in discussing it. The Bill came up to your Lordships on March 25. It was read a first time and was put down for Second Reading on April 3. At the request of your Lordship's it was put off until April 8, and again, at the request of your Lordships, it was put off until April 10. It was read a second time on April 10, and then it was put down for Committee on May 6, an interval of very nearly four weeks. It is true that the period of the Easter Recess was included in that time but, even if you subtract that, you have a considerable number of Parliamentary days. Then on May 6 the Committee stage had again to be put off until May 15.

1 would put it to your Lordships that we are not unreasonable in trying to get the Bill taken now. It has been put off in the House of Commons when days have been allotted to it, and it has been put off in this House. At the present moment I am not sure that the House of Commons will be able to find a day for it. I think that we, as a House, shall lay ourselves very open to the charge of obstructing this Bill and not intending to get it through if we now put off the Report stage. After Report, mark you, we shall have to wait again a few days before we can take the Third Reading. I would therefore appeal to the noble Marquess not to ask me to put this Bill off yet again. I can assure him that there is nothing in the Amendments, although they may be new in themselves, that has not been discussed on principle and with which we are not fully familiar. For that reason I ask the noble Marquess not to persist in this request. I would further remind him that this is not the first moment that we have had—

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

It is the first opportunity that we have had of seeing the Amendments.

EARL DE LA WARR

I am telling the noble Marquess that there is nothing—

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I am very sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but I have not spoken merely after glancing at the Amendments. I have been through them as well as I can with the Parliamentary draftsman and I tell the noble Earl that he is wrong when he says there is nothing new in them. There is. There are very important changes.

EARL DE LA WARR

I am sorry to seem persistent, but at the time when we accepted the appeal tribunal I think I made it perfectly clear again and again in our discussions that we were accepting only the establishment of the tribunal and that we should have to go through the Bill carefully on the Report stage and see to what clauses the appeal was suitable for application. The main Amendments, and the most important that stand in my name deal solely with that point and are designed to except the appeal tribunal from certain clauses to which I feel quite sure that it will be possible to show your Lordships that it is not really applicable. Of course we suffer in this House from being very few in numbers and it is quite impossible for us to think of enforcing our will against the noble Marquess; but I do hope he is not going to use his power once again to put off this Bill, for we have already almost killed the Bill by the Amendment deferring its operation for five years and now our action will probably make it very difficult for the Bill to receive consideration in the House of Commons.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

My Lords, I must confess that I think the noble Earl in charge of the Bill has some very real ground of complaint with regard to the earlier stages of this Bill. Undoubtedly it was postponed on several occasions earlier in the Session, and I very much regret this. On this occasion, however, it seems to me that the noble Marquess has every justification for making his plea that the Report stage should be postponed. He has satisfied himself that the Amendments proposed by the noble Earl are important ones and I am quite certain that we ought to have a little time in which to consider their bearing upon the whole question. The noble Earl complains that he and his Party suffer from small numbers in this House. May I tell him that they also suffer from the bad management of their own business?

EARL DE LA WARR

I do not know whether this Bill has suffered from bad management or not. By continually altering the dates we have only tried to suit your Lordships. That is the only reason why our plans have been changed so repeatedly. I think it is quite impossible to resist the appeal of the noble Marquess and the noble Earl, and the only question that remains now is to try and suit your Lordships' convenience as to when the Report stage should come up next. I gather that Monday has been suggested by certain noble Lords who are interested in the Bill, but I am afraid that it is quite impossible. I would ask your Lordships, if possible, to take it this week, either on Thursday or Friday.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

If the noble Earl or one of his friends will move the adjournment of the debate, we will settle in the usual way on which date it can be taken.

EARL DE LA WARR

My Lords, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned.

Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned sine die accordingly.

LORD PARMOOR

My Lords, now that the debate has been adjourned, I think we might very fairly ask the noble Marquess and his friends who desired the adjournment—I am not saying a word of criticism about that—what would be a convenient day for resuming it without a long delay. My noble friend has pointed out quite clearly that this Bill has been a long time before your Lordships' House and that we want to make further progress with it as quickly as possible. I do not know whether the noble Marquess has any suggestions to make.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I was quite prepared to take it on Monday, but the noble Earl in his speech seemed to think there might be some objection to Monday. So far as I am concerned, I should be content with Monday, but probably it would be wiser for the noble Earl to represent through the usual channels what the Government really wish, before we actually settle the day.

Loan PARMOOR

I assent to what the noble Marquess has said, and hope that arrangements may be made as soon as possible, so that Notice may be given.