HL Deb 31 July 1930 vol 78 cc1145-8

Page 7, line 14, at end insert: ("(4) A catchment board may enter into an agreement with the council of any borough or urban district or with any navigation authority for the carrying out by the council or authority, on such terms as to payment and otherwise as may be specified in the agreement, of any work in connection with the main river which the catchment board are authorised to carry out.")

LORD STRACHIE moved, as an Amendment to the Commons Amendment, after the first "any" to insert "county or." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is really a very small Amendment, but the County Councils Association think it very desirable that a county council may have the same power as a borough or urban district in regard to the carrying out, of these works; that is to say, that a catchment board may enter into agreement with the county council on such terms as may ho specified in the agreement to carry out any works in connection with the main river which a catchment board is authorised to carry out. All that the County Councils Association is anxious to do is to insert after the word "any" in the second line of the Commons Amendment the words "county or." The object is to give the county council precisely the same opportunity as a borough or urban district has of carrying out works if the catchment board think fit. There may be cases in which it would be very desirable for the catchment board to employ the county council as their agents, and the board might desire to do so. As the clause now stands the county council would be debarred. That does not seem to be very reasonable. This is merely a permissive question and I am sure your Lordships who are members of county councils will see that it is only fair and just that county councils should have an opportunity of carrying out these works if a catchment board asks them to do so. Surely, it is in the interests of the county council and of the ratepayers generally.

Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved— After the first ("any") insert ("county or").—(Lord Strachie.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I should be much happier if we had some idea of what the Amendment is.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY)

The Commons Amendment is to insert at the end of line 14— A catchment board may enter into an agreement with the council of any borough and so on, and the noble Lord's Amendment is to insert "county or" before "borough"; so that it would read: A catchment board may enter into an agreement with the council of any county or borough or urban district.

EARL DE LA WARR

Your Lordships would like perhaps an explanation of the Commons Amendment before discussing this Amendment. The purpose of the Amendment was to deal with certain rather exceptional cases. The particular towns that were in our minds at the moment were Cambridge, Bedford and one or two others to which the river is particularly important both from an aesthetic and an amenity point of view. They have been carrying out this work very satisfactorily and it was felt that it might be desirable to make provision whereby in these special circumstances the work might continue to be carried out by those towns. The insertion of such an Amendment, as I think your Lordships will realise, is quite a different matter from accepting the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Strachie. To begin with in this case it will only be exercised in very exceptional cases and a small borough such as Cambridge will not really make any very large hole in the area. When I say "small" I mean in comparison with the area of a county.

EARL PEEL

The noble Earl will be calling Bedford a small town next.

EARL DE LA WARR

The basis of the Bill is the handing over to the catchment board the control of the main river. If we accept the Amendment of the noble Lord there will be the possibility of great stretches of the river coming out of the control of the catchment board, and that would upset the whole basis of the Bill. For that reason I hope that the noble Lord will not press his Amendment. We certainly cannot accept it.

LORD BAYFORD

My Lords, this is a new point to me altogether. I am rather frightened by the proposal of my noble friend for a different reason from that given by the noble Earl opposite. I think that county councils have quite enough work to do already. Certainly I should say of the one of which my noble friend is a distinguished member that that is the case, and it rather appals me to think that by a clause put into the Bill at the very last moment of the last hour of its consideration we should place such a serious additional burden as this upon the county councils of the country. Therefore, I am not prepared to support this Amendment.

LORD STRACHIE

My Lords, in reply to my noble friend Lord Bayford, who talks of this Amendment putting a bur-

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment to the Commons Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

den on the county councils, I am sorry that he is afraid of work for the county councils. I would remind him that it is the County Councils Association who are asking for this Amendment and they are not afraid of the burden. It is entirely an optional power—optional both for the county council and the catchment board. I agree that all the arguments used by the noble Earl opposite would be effective and I should not object to them if this Amendment was concerned with compulsory powers. It is not. It is entirely at the option of the catchment board whether they ask the county council to carry out the work or not. Surely the catchment boards are the proper people to say whether they think the work will be better done by themselves or by the local authority. Boroughs are included and I cannot see why county councils should not be.

LORD DYNEVOR

My Lords, I beg to support my noble friend Lord Strachie. I, too, cannot see why county councils should be left out of this provision. If a catchment board may make an agreement with an urban district council, which is not a very great body, surely they ought to be able to make an agreement with a county council which is a much larger authority. This, of course, is a purely optional right.

On Question, Whether the proposed Amendment to the Commons Amendment shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 4; Not-Contents, 37.

CONTENTS.
Dynevor, L, [Teller.] Strachie, L. [Teller.] Wharton, L.
Lawrence, L.
NOT-CONTENTS.
Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.) Peel, E. Danesfort, L.
Plymouth, E. Desborough, L.
Parmoor, L. (L. President.) Stanhope, E. Faringdon, L.
Bath, M. Gage, L. (V. Gage.)
Linlithgow, M. Bertie of Thame, V. Gainford, L.
Salisbury, M. Falkland, V. Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.]
De La Warr, E. FitzAlan of Derwent, V.
Effingham, E. Novar, V. Marley, L. [Teller.]
Grey, E. Phillimore, L.
Iddesleigh, E. Alvingham, L. Sanderson, L.
Lauderdale, E. Amulree, L. Sinclair, L.
Lucan, E. Auckland, L. Thomson, L.
Midleton, E. Bayford, L. Wraxall, L.
Onslow, E. Biddulph, L.

Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.