Lords Sitting of 31 July 1930

Preamble
The House met at half past three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, perhaps it will be in the interest of the House if the noble and learned Lord can inform your Lordships at what time it is proposed to sit to-morrow, and at what time the Royal Commission will sit.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): My Lords, in answer to the question of the noble Marquess, I think we ought to sit at twelve to-morrow, as there may be some business owing to the return of Bills from another place. So far as the Royal Commission is concerned, I do not think it will be any good fixing a time before four o'clock, and then the Commission will be followed by the Prorogation.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am not sure that I clearly understood. I have no objection to meeting at twelve o'clock, and I am sure my noble friends will not object, but I think they would expect, if there was business and they transacted it, there would be no more business before the Prorogation.
LORD PARMOOR: There would be no new business. I can only deal with business not now completed.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: What I mean is that we should not find, if we adjourned during pleasure, say at one o'clock, and then came back at half past two, that there were other matters which your Lordships would be asked to agree to.
LORD PARMOOR: There would be none that I know of.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It is very important, because your Lordships should be here to deal with it.
LORD PARMOOR: There are one or two matters which may have to come back, and we shall have to deal with them
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when they come back here. We can deal with them when we sit at twelve o'clock. We will then adjourn during pleasure and come back for the Commission and Prorogation. Certainly we do not intend to spring any new matters at that stage. If anything occurs to alter what I have said we will announce it before the adjournment. I have given all the information possible at the present time.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (CARDIFF, STOKE-ON-TRENT AND WORTHING) BILL. [H.L.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (EAST DEAN AND UNITED DISTRICTS JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (ESSEX) BILL. [H.L]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (MACCLESFIELD AND WILLESDEN) BILL. [H.L.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (MORECAMBE AND HEYSHAM) BILL. [H.L.]
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (TORQUAY AND WEYMOUTH AND MELCOMBE REGIS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

RESERVOIRS (SAFETY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
ARGYLL TRUST ESTATE BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
BRADFORD CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
HOUSING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with certain of the Amendments made by the Lords agreed to, one Amendment disagreed to, but the words so restored to the Bill amended, and one other Amendment disagreed to, for which disagreement the Commons assigned a Reason.
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION (QUAY EXTENSION, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]

  RIVER LEE (FLOOD RELIEF, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]
  WEST HAM CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  LEICESTER CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  BOSTON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  SOUTHPORT CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.

  TOTTENHAM AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1930.
    NEWENT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1930.

      STEYNING ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
      WEST HANTS ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
      WORKSOP ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
      NORWICH ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
      WORKINGTON GAS ORDER, 1930.
      CENTRAL ELECTRICITY BOARD (ST. PANCRAS LANDS) ORDER, 1930.
      SILSDEN ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1930.
      Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders, and that there is nothing in these Orders to which they think it
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      necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BEDFORD DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1930.
    WOLVERHAMPTON GAS ORDER, 1930.
      UXBRIDGE GAS ORDER, 1930.
      Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Orders; that they have received and considered a Report from the Board of Trade upon the Orders, and that there is nothing to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  WATFORD AND ST. ALBANS GAS ORDER, 1930.
  Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order; that there is nothing in this Order to which they think it necessary to call the attention of the House, and that they have considered certain modifications proposed by the Board of Trade and recommend their adoption to the House: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  MID-CUMBERLAND ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1930.
  Report from the Special Orders Committee, That no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against the Special Order; that they have received and considered a Report from the Ministry of Transport containing certain proposals for the modification of the Order, and recommend their adoption to the House: Read, and ordered to lie on Table.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (IMPROVEMENTS) BILL. [H.L.]
  Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have suspended any further proceedings on the London County Council (Improvements) Bill

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  [H.L.] in the House of Commons until the next Session of Parliament.
  Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Message read.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, with reference to the London County Council (Improvements) Bill, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name.
  Moved to resolve, That the promoters of the Bill which has been introduced into this House in the present Session of Parliament, and which has passed this House and been sent to the House of Commons, shall have leave to introduce the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than noon on the last sitting day of the present Session, and that all fees due thereon, up to that period, be paid:
  That such Bill shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than three o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session:
  That the proceedings on such Bill shall be pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session; and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages:
  That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to the said Bill in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

  NEWENT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1930.
  STEYNING ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
  WEST HANTS ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
  WORKSOP ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved.
  Moved, That the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day be approved.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  NORWICH ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
  CENTRAL ELECTRICITY BOARD (ST. PANCRAS LANDS) ORDER, 1930.
  SILSDEN ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1930.
  LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved.
  Moved, That the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  MID-CUMBERLAND ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1930.
  LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved, with additions and modifications.
  Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved with additions and modifications.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

  TOTTENHAM AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1930.
  WOLVERHAMPTON GAS ORDER, 1930.
  BEDFORD DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1930.
  UXBRIDGE GAS ORDER, 1930.
  WORKINGTON GAS ORDER, 1930.
  THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD MARLEY): My Lords, I

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  beg to move that the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved.
  Moved, That the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved.—(Lord Marley.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.

WATFORD AND ST. ALBANS GAS ORDER, 1930.
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved, with modifications. The modifications are very small. Three lines were left out by mistake; the other points are purely drafting.
Moved, That the Special Order as reported from the Special Orders Committee this day, be approved with modifications.—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HOUSING (No. 2) BILL
Order of the Day read for the consideration of Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments and Commons Reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords Amendment.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments and Reasons be now considered. I think it will be convenient, as we have found in other cases, that I should make a short statement in order to show how the matter stands generally. I very much hope we shall be able to settle certain matters, but there are difficulties between us, and we shall have to face them. The House of Commons has agreed to all your Lordships' Amendments, with the exception, I think, of four, and of those four, as far as I know, only two questions are going to be raised again in this House because, as regards those two, Amendments have been put down by the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, to the Commons Amendments.
The first of those, and perhaps the more important, relates to the proviso which was inserted in Clause 12 by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie of Thame. Perhaps I had better read the proviso:—
"Provided that in any case where it is proved that a building which is injurious or
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dangerous to health by reason only of the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets on any land in a clearance area was acquired by the owner before the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and nineteen, or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business, the arbitrator shall make to the owner an allowance for the value of the building having regard to the provisions of Part II of the Third Schedule to this Act."
That means that as regards premises which were acquired before 1919 the present basis of compensation, based upon what is called site value, should not be applied. In reference to the words in the proviso "or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business," I notice that Lord Onslow has put down an Amendment to omit those words. I appreciate the Motion for the omission of those words, but they do not go far enough to meet us, and I have to insist upon my objection to the proviso as a whole. The proviso has been again very fully considered, in the light of the Amendment proposed by Lord Onslow, but the Government are satisfied that they are unable to accept the proviso even in its amended form, as it raises a very important question of compensation.
This is a Bill which was carefully prepared in consultation with the local authorities in order that it might be worked as effectively and generously as it reasonably could be. The proviso would increase the amount of compensation payable—of course, that is the object of it—and therefore upsets the financial arrangements between the Government and the local authorities provided in the Bill. That is a very serious matter. What we desire is to encourage the use of the provisions of this Bill to the greatest reasonable extent. Moreover, the Government are satisfied that it would work unjustly and unfairly as between owners, and would raise difficulties in operation of an acute kind. I know the matter has been fully considered in every aspect, with the result that I have told your Lordships. This would be a very curious instance of retrospective legislation, which your Lordships always dislike. This very same matter was considered in 1919, the date to which this Amendment refers, when the provision dealing with compensation was passed. I understand that, with regard to the reduction factor, possibly it was an oversight—I think Lord Onslow

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suggested that—but we have agreed that point, because we have taken out the reduction factor when the land is proposed to be used for open spaces, and only left it in where it is going to be used for replacement purposes. That, of course, is in accordance with ordinary compensation practice.
Secondly, no house can come within the operation of this compensation clause unless it is dangerous to health. That is a leading factor. It is only when it is dangerous to health that it can come within these slum clearance provisions at all; and if it does come within these provisions the alternative is that the local authority may order the demolition of the house. That stands in the Bill as it is, and is a necessary factor. Therefore if you order the demolition of the house, of course the owner is only left with the site, and is only left, as a matter of compensation, with what is called the site value. That is a very important consideration, and, after all, I cannot see myself why an owner should get better compensation because he has enjoyed the rents of a slum area which is injurious to the health of the inhabitants for a longer period of time. I am quite aware that another argument was used, but after all it was only an incidental argument. Of course, it is true there may have been some building in these houses between 1919 and the present time. That is only an incidental matter—one of the reasons for not altering a compensation clause of this kind.
But when we come down to the real justice of the position, why should you give heavier compensation because the owner has been longer in possession of a property injurious to health, and, therefore, obtaining profits, such as they are, from the ownership of property of that kind? Can that be justified? That is my difficulty, I admit. I do not see that it can. The local authorities think that it cannot be and they object entirely to the greater expense thrown upon them. They also object very much to the differences which would come into operation if you had to consider whether a particular interest they had to compensate did or did not arise before a certain date, with all the questions of mortgages, ownerships, trusteeships and various matters which, in their view at any rate (and I have no
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doubt they are right) would very much increase their administrative difficulties. Therefore, I will ask your Lordships not to agree with the proposition of having a higher rate of compensation because property of this kind has been owned for a longer period. On principle we cannot get away from that, and that is the only principle that is really involved.
So far as I know the only other matter upon which anything like serious discussion is likely to arise is the word "disrepair." There is also an Amendment proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, in regard to that. It seems to me that there ought not to be any difficulty if it is considered. We are only dealing generally with disrepair which leads to a house being unhealthy for occupation. Then we come to the special cases of disrepair with which we are dealing and which are found in Clause 61 (1), which says that no obligation—that is what it comes to—shall be placed upon the owner so far as the disrepair is concerned if he is under no obligation in connection with it. He goes out, if I may use that expression.
What do we mean by "disrepair" as regards painting and matters of that kind? If your Lordships will look at Clause 61 (3), you will see what it means. The general principal is that disrepairs do not come under consideration except so far as they cause the house to be regarded as injurious to health. So far as that is concerned, the words proposed by the noble Earl are mere tautology and mere bad drafting, nothing more than that. Subsection (3) provides that:—
"In determining for this purpose of this Act whether a house is fit for human habitation, regard shall be had to the extent, if any, to which by reason of disrepair or sanitary defects the house falls short of the provisions of any by-laws in operation in a district, or the general standard of housing accommodation for the working classes of that district."
So far as I know, that is the only case where the word "disrepair" is used apart from the main clauses; in Clause 1 for instance, where, in order to bring a house within the clearance area site principle, the disrepair must be such as to be injurious to its sanitary condition and to the health of the occupier. I think if the noble Earl looks at this there may

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be some agreement, because we are all agreed that the owner should not come under any liability by reason of this Bill for this purpose. That is common ground, and we are not suggesting that at the present time. We have the same words in this respect practically as the noble Earl has. But when we come to the definition of "disrepair" in this clause we find that in determining whether the house is fit for occupation or not, the disrepair of which we are now talking is merely an element in the consideration, and it ought to be an element in the consideration. If I might refer to the words in order to show the difference between what the noble Earl thinks right and what we should accept, the noble Earl says that the expression "disrepair" includes such deficiency arising from the default on the part of the landlord in respect of internal painting and papering, or distempering walls as is injurious or dangerous to the health of the occupier. The proposal which we make and which ought to meet all the difficulties is the same as regards the owner—including the deficiency arising from default on the part of the landlord in respect of internal painting, papering, or distempering of walls. That is what "disrepair" there refers to. It is not in itself necessarily injurious to health, but it is an element to be taken into consideration. I hope that when the noble Earl looks closely into this matter he will be able to agree with what I am saying about it.
There are one or two other Amendments which I see are disagreed with, but I do not think I need deal with them at present because there is no intimation of a desire in your Lordships' House to uphold what is objected to in another place, or any Amendment on the Paper. I sincerely hope, therefore, that on a Bill of this kind, which we are all agreed is of the utmost importance to the provision of better housing in slum areas and in getting rid of those areas, we can agree generally upon the matters I have discussed, and I hope your Lordships will consider that the only desire of the Government is to have an effective Bill. They have considered it very thoroughly with all the local authorities and after constant discussions with them, and I think that ought to dispose your Lordships at any rate to think that, unless
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any question of principle is involved, the Government are entitled to have the procedure arranged in the way they have agreed to and which is thought most necessary. I think that is the only way really of getting the most effective use out of what ought to be a very beneficial Bill in connection with social progress and social service.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments and Reasons be now considered.—(Lord Pormoor.)
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I think your Lordships will be grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the lucidity and clearness with which he has explained the objections which are entertained by the Government to the various Amendments put into tins Bill by your Lordships and which have been disagreed to in another place. We shall have an opportunity, I imagine, of dealing with each Amendment separately as it comes up for discussion; but I would like to comment upon certain observations which have fallen from the noble and learned Lord and, perhaps, when we come to the various points he will be able to reply. In regard to the first Amendment which I have to move—an Amendment to the Amendment which your Lordships put in the Bill originally—the objections that the noble and learned Lord raised to this particular proviso were I think three. In the first place he said that this was retrospective legislation. It is retrospective in the sense that it repeals in one particular point legislation which was contained in a Bill of 1919 and confirmed in a Consolidation Bill of 1925. It is hardly retrospective legislation to repeal some thing which is bad, otherwise I do not think your Lordships would ever have anything to do, because half the Bills that one sees withdraw from the Statute Book many things which we know are undesirable but which, possibly, may have been all right when the Bills were passed. I do not think this provision ever was desirable. I believe it crept in, possibly by some error.
Then the noble and learned Lord said that this was a matter of very great importance. We all agree it is a matter of great importance. That is why your Lordships have taken so much trouble in considering and moving Amendments, and insisting

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upon certain Amendments. We all agree it is an important point. Now I come to the main objections. I notice in the debate in another place the speech of a supporter of the noble and learned Lord's Party, I think Mr. Hoffman, who raised certain objections to the words which I propose to omit. It struck me there was a good deal of force in his argument. It was said a man might go and buy a house now, occupy it himself or put in another person, even the present tenant, to act as his business manager, and, therefore, would be able to get unfair compensation. I think there is a good deal of truth in that statement, and, therefore, I would move that these words should be omitted, and so leave the Amendment in the state in which, as far as I can tell, it was intended to be left by Lord Buckmaster. I wish the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster, were here, because we then should have the advantage of his advice on the matter.
So far as I understood him the point is this. A man has a house. He may have had it for years. He has kept it in perfect repair. There has never been any complaint against him, and, simply because the streets in that town are narrow, his house is to be taken away from him, and he is to be given no compensation. That is a different, case to one in which a man keeps his house in bad repair. He may have built the house, say, in 1880, when possibly it was looked upon as a model dwelling. Narrow streets in those, days were not looked upon with such disfavour as they are now. That man has kept the house in perfect order, and never had any trouble with the local authority, yet it is to be taken away from him because, in modern times, it is supposed to be dangerous to health. The man has never done anything wrong. He has done everything he should do. Why should he be fined simply because our modern ideas require a rather larger and broader streets? It is right and proper that we should have larger and broader streets, but when people want things I think they should compensate those who have never done anything wrong if they want to take anything away from them. That is the point of the Amendment as it would stand, amended by the omission of the words I have suggested.
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I come to the last point—the second Amendment which stands in my name. I am replying as far as I can to the noble and learned Lord. I did not quite follow all he said, but I gathered the gist of it was that there was no point in my Amendment, that what I suggested was in the Bill already. I may have made a mistake, and may have introduced an Amendment which is unnecessary, but I am not quite sure that I am right in interpreting the noble and learned Lord in that way. I rather think myself that unless you have these words in a landlord will be responsible for all kinds of painting and papering. I do not think it would be advisable in this Bill to put too great a burden upon anybody. You want to get results. You do not want to overburden the landlord, or tenant, or anybody else, but you want satisfactory results, and it seems to me all that is necessary in this clause is to insist that the landlord shall carry out his obligations to keep the house in sanitary and fit condition. You do not want to put the additional obligation upon him to decorate the house in a certain way, and to do it every three years.
LORD PARMOOR: May I interrupt the noble Earl? We are both agreed upon that, and I think it is carried out by either form of words, quite apart from the question that I raised in the definition of "disrepair.'
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Does the noble and learned Lord tell me his proposed Amendment will not require a landlord to do anything more than keep it in sanitary repair and will not make the landlord responsible for extra decorations?
LORD PARMOOR: I think it is more than that. Neither the noble Earl's Amendment nor the words I suggest put any obligation at all upon the landlord. They both are directed to prevent obligations of that kind being put upon landlords that do not exist. What I pointed out was that "disrepair" had already been defined as something injurious to health, but as regards this particular section "disrepair" was dealt with in Clause 3 in clear language of its own.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Yes, but the obligation is not contained in this Bill; it is in the principal Act.
LORD PARMOOR: You are right there.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: It puts the obligation upon the landlord notwithstanding the clauses in the lease which relieve a landlord from repairs. I have not got it here, but I think I am right in that, and I believe the noble and learned Lord agrees with me. Am I to understand from the noble and learned Lord that the wording I propose has no effect? That is really the point.
LORD PARMOOR: I do not think it has no effect, but I think as a matter of drafting it is wrong. I do not think it would tell in favour of the landlord, because we do not propose that he should have any obligation of this kind.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: But he has it under the principal Act.
Loan PARMOOR: Well, whatever he has, there is no additional obligation. I will put it in that way. There is no addition of any sort or kind. As regards the noble Earl's argument now, the obligation would be left upon him where the conditions that attach to it arise.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I will not pursue it any further at the present moment, but we shall come to it when we get to the precise Amendment. There are one or two other points in regard to the disagreement of the House of Commons with your Lordships which perhaps I might refer to. One is on page 49, line 9, leave out "and" and insert "or." The Amendment your Lordships propose has been disagreed to in another place. I am very much disappointed that the Government have not thought fit to do what I think the noble and learned Lord was very willing to do when we were discussing this before, and that is to accept the Amendment which was so powerfully advocated by my noble friend Lord Strachie. I am not going to do more than express the earnest hope that if possible, even at this eleventh hour, the noble and learned Lord will reconsider his decision.
This is not a political matter. It was supported in another place by members of the noble and learned Lord's own Party, as well as by members of other Parties, and it was supported in your Lordships' House by members sitting on the Bench below the Gangway. It only, I think, carries out the intentions of the Government—that is to say, to include
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all agricultural parishes. Certainly some will be omitted if this Amendment is not introduced. I do not think that is what the Government want. Therefore, although there is no Motion on the Paper, I venture to express the very earnest hope that even now the Government may be able to reconsider the provision of that particular matter. Then there is the other Amendment on page 43. On that I think, if I may say so, the Government have given us every satisfaction by leaving out subsection (2). I do not think I need say more on the general question, although I may perhaps say something on particular points later.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, if I may by leave of the House say another word, I think if the noble Earl will look at the Bill in reference to the point as to disrepair, he will find it is the same as here.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT.
[The references are to Bill No. 180.]
Page 11, line 23, at end insert:
("Provided that in any case where it is proved that a building which is injurious or dangerous to health by reason only of the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets on any land in a clearance area was acquired by the owner before the thirty-first day of July, nineteen hundred and nineteen, or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business, the arbitrator shall make to the owner an allowance for the value of the building having regard to the provisions of Part II of the Third Schedule to this Act.")
The Commons disagree to the above Amendment for the following Reason:
Because by increasing the amount of compensation payable by local authorities it would increase the burden of local rates, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that the above may be deemed sufficient.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I beg to move the Motion of which I have given notice.
Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the Amendment in page 11, line 23, and propose to amend it by leaving out the words ("or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business").—(The Earl of Onslow.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, as I was the original mover of this proviso it might be convenient if I

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said a few words now. The noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House has talked about this legislation being retrospective. Retrospective legislation is all right when it rights a wrong. He also talked about generosity. I think he has rather peculiar ideas about generosity if he thinks the Bill as introduced in another place was generous. He also said it encouraged economy; but what it encouraged was theft and, not economy at all. You can be economical and steal a person's things. If Privilege is to be pleaded, property can be confiscated for nothing at all. The noble and learned Lord said it would only apply in cases of property dangerous to health, but if he will look at the wording of the clause he will see, if he reads on further, the words "by reason of disrepair or sanitary defects unfit for human habitation, or are by reason of their bad arrangement or the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets." That is the point which the noble and learned Lord evaded by not going on.
LORD PARMOOR: I do not want to interrupt the noble Viscount, but if he reads it he will see that that is the point he made a mistake about. The words of the clause are:—
".… by reason of their bad arrangement, or the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets, dangerous or injurious to the health of the inhabitants of the area."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: But that is not the fault of the person who owns the house. Then he pleaded ad misericordiam because we had given way about the reduction factor. I was sorry that my noble friend Lord Banbury did give way—or half give way—about the reduction factor.
I frankly admit that the proviso as it was proposed by me on Report did have a defect, and I am very glad that in another place that defect was detected in time because my last intention was to give compensation to people who were not entitled to it. All the Amendment will do now if the noble Earl's Amendment to my Amendment is accepted, is to require a local authority to pay compensation to be determined by an arbitrator to persons who acquired property before the passing of the Act of 1919 and who have kept the property in decent repair structurally and in proper sanitary condition. I am surprised that the Govern-
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ment—especially a Government which pretends to have the interests of the poor and needy at heart—should stoop quite so low as to plead Privilege in the case of an Amendment which only gives fair compensation to a section of the community who find difficulty in getting their case presented, who have been self-respecting citizens, keeping their property in decent condition, and whose only crime is to live in a narrow street. I hope that your Lordships will accept the Amendment of the noble Earl.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: My Lords, it, may be unnecessary and often undesirable that all English and Scottish Bills should be exactly the same. It is often impossible that they should be identical. Yet I submit that when possible it is desirable that the law throughout these Islands should be the same. On the Scottish Bill I moved a somewhat similar Amendment to that of the noble Earl and I understand the Government is likely to object to that, but I would make a slight Amendment similar to that which he has already moved by omitting the words "occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business." I support the Amendment of the noble Earl most heartily, and I trust that he intends to insist on it because a similar Amendment will be peculiarly applicable to the more ancient of the Scottish burghs. As far as I can understand from the discussion the Government has no defence to offer save the suggestion that greedy speculators have bought up slum property in order to extract slum clearance compensation. Evidence as to that there is none, and I do not credit it. I should say it is an assumption without foundation. A number of owners will be deprived of fair compensation if the provisions of the Bill stand as desired by the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, before the question is put I should like to reply to one or two points made by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie. In the first place I think he forgets that for a house to come within what is called a clearance area at all it must, to use the words of the Bill, be "dangerous or injurious to the health of the inhabitants of the area." Therefore there can be no doubt whatever that as regards—
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: "By reason of their bad arrangement, or the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets." The noble and learned Lord always leaves that out.
LORD PARMOOR: Yes, I say that is all that we are dealing with. No house can come within the clearance area unless it is dangerous or injurious to health either from its position or from its own inherent sanitary deficiencies. There is no doubt about that. No one doubts further that if the house does not come within that definition of being dangerous or injurious to health it would be excluded. It used to be excluded on the old "pink and blue" basis. It ought be excluded, and under the administration of this Bill would be in fact excluded. He forgets also, if I may say so, that the right to demolish exists. Anyone can claim that a house should be demolished. If you demolish a house all that you leave to the owner is the site value. That is all he has left to him, and therefore we are not doing a hardship here. We are dealing with conditions as they arise.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Do I understand that a house which is in perfect structural and sanitary condition can be demolished by order?
LORD PARMOOR: The noble Viscount, if I may say so, always begs the question. The order can only be made by the competent authority if the house is found to be dangerous to health. That is the test in each case. Of course, if he is going to say that people are not going to comply with that test, the whole Bill may be grossly unfair. At any rate we proceed on the basis that powers of this kind are reasonably exercised. If they are, the conditions that I have described will arise. I do not want to insist upon the point, but I want to try to make the noble Viscount understand what the conditions will be to which he is applying his arguments. I agree that, so far as the noble Earl's Amendment is concerned, it is a great advantage in itself. There is no doubt about that. I do not think I need reinforce the position that I have already taken up. The Government, after careful consideration, cannot accept the proviso, and therefore it is my duty to make the point quite clear to your Lordships. They cannot accept it because, in their view, it would lead to difficulty in administering the
1132
clause and to expense on the part of the local authorities, and because the suggested hardships will not arise if the Bill is fairly administered.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, I dare say it is my fault, but I have not yet really understood what answer the noble and learned Lord made to the point raised by my noble friend behind me. Perhaps may say that I have had a great deal to do with this question of compensation in some areas in the past, and I have been very forcibly struck with the fact that, if there is an idea in the neighbourhood that owners are unfairly dealt with in point of compensation, this really does slacken the hand of the local authority in dealing with some of these areas. Although there may be only one or two such houses—and I have known this in certain cases—yet if those particular owners are unfairly dealt with, the fact has a prejudicial effect upon the action of the local authority. Accordingly, though it may seem only a small matter, as applied to only one or two houses, I think it is a little more important than the noble and learned Lord is perhaps disposed to think.
I thought that there was an ambiguity in the phrase used by the noble and learned Lord. He talked about houses that were injurious to health. I want to take a case that often happens, especially in the older towns—it happened in a town that I used to represent—the case of a house built some years ago, which is perfectly good as a house, has been well kept up and there is no reason to object to it in itself, but, after that house has been built, other houses are built round it and streets are laid out. You are now going to say to the owner of such a house that the house is injurious to health, not on its own account, or because of anything he has done or any neglect to repair it, but simply because other people have, if you like, created a nuisance round it. It seems to me contrary to common sense and justice that in that case the owner should suffer, though perfectly innocent, merely on account of the action of other people.
It is admitted that the injury to health in such cases is not due to the condition of the house itself. In the case that we are considering it may possibly become, in a sense, injurious to health because of the buildings that have grown

1133
up round it, but surely, in that case, it is not too much for us to ask that a higher rate of compensation should be paid to the owner of such a house than to the owners of the other houses which have caused the injury for which the owner of this particular house is not responsible. I really think that the noble and learned Lord might reconsider his judgment on this point. Possibly the conditions may not apply to many houses, but a feeling of injustice is set up which, I believe, will to some extent prevent this measure from being usefully carried out and local authorities from doing their duty.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I am afraid I have spoken rather often—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Order, order!
LORD PARMOOR: —but one of the reasons why we think that the Amendment should not be accepted and why we disagree with what was done here was that it does make an unfair relationship between the different owners. I agree with what the noble Earl has said. I have had—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I rise to order. I really think that there must be some limit to the number of speeches which the Leader of the House makes on one question. I have not interfered or asked your Lordships to interfere for a moment up to a certain point, for I know quite well the difficulties of being Leader of the House and that very often certain observations have to be made, but I hope that the noble and learned Lord will not make more speeches than he has made already in respect of one question put from the Woolsack.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I do not think that I am open to that objection in answering the questions that are asked me on a point of this kind, but I need not go further. If, when questions of this kind are asked me from the Oppotion Benches, and very properly asked, I am not to be allowed to answer them on an occasion of this kind—questions such as that put by the noble Earl, Lord Peel—I think it would be impossible to have the matter properly discussed. I think I have said all that I need say, but I certainly should claim the right
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of answering questions put to me if I consider that they are questions of great importance and should be answered.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENTS.
Page 43, line 17, after ("if") insert ("for")
Page 43, line 18, leave out from the second ("or") to the end of the subsection and insert ("'is otherwise required for the amenity or convenience of any house' there were substituted the words 'is required for the easement the amenity or convenience of any house whether such amenity or convenience be by way of any park, garden, or pleasure ground'")
They disagree to the above Amendments, but propose the following Amendment to the Bill in lieu thereof:
Page 43, line 16, leave out subsection (2).
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I beg to move that we agree to the Commons Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT
Page 49, line 9, leave out ("and") and insert ("or")
They disagree to the above Amendment for the following Reason:
Because by increasing the number of parishes eligible for housing subsidies at a higher rate it would place an increased burden on public funds; and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that the above may be deemed sufficient.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I beg to move that we do not insist on this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth not insist on the said Amendment.—(Lord Parmoor.)
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, this is the question that we discussed the other day. It all turns upon the question whether a large number of agricultural parishes should be left out of the benefits of this Bill. The proposal which was put in, then struck out, and now put back again by the Commons, would, if allowed, leave us no alternative. Under the clause with which we are dealing the net annual value of the agricultural laud in the parish must have exceeded 25 per cent. of the total annual value on the 1st of October, 1929. In such cases the

1135
parishes will be covered by the clause, but from 25 to 30 per cent. of the rural parishes will not come under this provision as to the 25 per cent. of agricultural land. Again I would point out that, under the Derating Act, 1928, the value of agricultural land disappeared entirely, so that, for all practical purposes, rural parishes under this definition will have disappeared.
I notice that the Commons disagree with the Amendment, with which the Lord President seemed to have sympathy, although he was not able to accept it, because they say that, by increasing the number of parishes eligible for housing subsidies at a higher rate, it will place an increased burden on public funds. The only reason why they object is that they will have to spend more money. They are quite willing to spend money on large parishes and industrial areas, but not when it comes to rural districts where the housing is quite as much needed if not more. It is impossible to build houses as in the old days, when the landowners at great expense to themselves built a large number of houses in the rural districts of their parishes.
There are in these days very few land owners, great or small, who are able to put up cottages in their areas as they used to do in the old days. The only way to get houses now is to get assistance from the Exchequer and that is what the Lord President of the Council and the House of Commons refuse to give. They say that they will help the large areas with large rateable value but, when it comes to the rural areas, they are to get no benefit at all. That is very bard on these parishes, and I hope that at the last moment the Lord President of the Council will relent and sec that this proposal is very undesirable. I hope the House will insist on its Amendment.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I have to oppose insistence upon this Amendment. The County Councils Association, who were fully consulted, were in favour of the Bill as it stood. Of course you have to consider how you can work a scheme of this kind best in the country districts. From my own experience I am most anxious about the country districts because I know them best, but I cannot agree with the argument of the noble Lord. The Bill as it stands is
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very fair. The county councils and the Ministry must not have too large an expenditure thrown on the county rates and we must ask that the Bill should stand in the form in which it originally stood.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, with respect to this Amendment I would like to say one word. I do not think your Lordships are under any obligation to accept all the Amendments which have come up from another place and, in respect of one or two, I believe, as my noble friend beside me has shown, that he is prepared to ask your Lordships to insist upon the position which you have already taken up. That should not be done without very careful consideration. After all, we have a very profound respect for the decisions of another place and we ought not to differ from them except on grounds on which we think we can strictly rely. With regard to this Amendment, there are two things to be said. In the first place it is not really a very extensive matter. I know my noble friends differ as to the importance of it and as to the precise cases which it covers, but I also learn on good authority that it will not cover any great number of cases. Then the question arises how far this touches upon the House of Commons Privileges. I have on occasion often to trouble your Lordships on the subject of Privilege, which is one of the most obscure subjects with which Parliament has to deal. I have little doubt that the Commons would claim Privilege with some assurance on this point because it does lay a direct charge on the taxpayer.
LORD PARMOOR: The Speaker did claim Privilege.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I know he did because it is claimed in the Commons Reason. In this question of Privilege the first distinction is between Privilege claimed in respect of rates and Privilege claimed in respect of taxes. Where it is a question of a burden on the taxpayer the Privilege is of much more importance than where the matter is one of laying a burden upon the ratepayer. This belongs to the more important category, which lays a burden upon the taxpayer. I am not going to say that in every case, even in respect of a burden

1137
upon the taxpayer, your Lordships ought to abandon your undoubted rights to move and insist upon Amendments, and I say so because the practice of the House of Commons is very often to waive their Privilege where they consider that the Lords are right after all. Therefore I am certainly not going to insist that in every case, even where it involves a burden upon the taxpayer, the claim of Privilege should be accepted. All these incidental burdens upon the taxpayer or the ratepayer are different from where it is a direct vote to throw a burden upon the taxpayer or the ratepayer, such as appears in the Finance Bills and similar Bills. I make this distinction, but still I think this belongs to the category where we ought to take very special care, and having regard to the fact that your Lordships have seen fit to insist upon other Amendments, and will do so again before you finish with the Bill, I would rather recommend you not to insist upon this Amendment.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENTS.
Page 49, line 43, after ("includes") insert ("such")
Page 49, line 43, after ("deficiency") insert ("arising from default on the part of the landlord")
Page 50, line 1, leave out from ("walls") to ("and") in line 4, and insert ("as is injurious or dangerous to the health of the occupants")
They disagree to the above Amendments, but propose the following Amendment to the Bill in lieu thereof:
Page 49, line 43, leave out from ("includes") to ("and") in page 50, line 4, and insert ("any deficiency arising from default on the part of the landlord in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls")
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, this is a series of Amendments moved by myself and Lord Bertie of Thame, which the House of Commons have disagreed with, but they have proposed an Amendment in lieu thereof. As the noble and learned Lord has said, the alternative Amendment is the same wording except up to the word "walls," and the only difference between us is whether or not the words "is injurious or dangerous to the health of the occupant" should be put in after the word "walls." The noble and learned Lord says that the Amendment which he has proposed means
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exactly the same thing, when read with other parts of the Bill, as my Amendment. If that is the case, then why not put my Amendment in and clarify the meaning of the Government and of the Bill? If it makes no difference, then I think the words should be put in. Therefore on both grounds it seems to me that these words are useful and should be inserted.
Moved, That this House cloth insist upon the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, what I suggested was this, that in certain clauses of the Bill—take Clause 1 as a very good illustration—"disrepair" is used in the sense of disrepair such as would make the house unsuitable or injurious to health. I think we are agreed upon that. It is twice used in that way in the earlier part of the Bill. I invite the noble Earl to look at subsection (3) of this very clause. The clause says "the expression 'disrepair' includes deficiency in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls, except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to the wilful default or neglect of the occupants of the house and is not likely to injure or endanger their health."
Subsection (3) says this:
"In determining for the purposes of this Act whether a house is fit for human habitation, regard shall be had to the extent, if any, to which by reason of disrepair or sanitary defects the house falls short of the provisions of any bylaws in operation in the district, or of the general standard of housing accommodation for the working classes in the district."
There, your Lordships will see, regard is to be had to the extent to which, by reason of disrepair or sanitary defects, the house falls short of the provisions of any by-laws in operation in the district, or of the general standard of housing accommodation for the working classes in the district. That is the way in which "disrepair" is used in this case. What I said before was quite accurate. What I may call the general word "disrepair" in the former clauses does refer to disrepair which makes the house unfit for human habitation. Therefore what we are dealing with now is another class of disrepair. Both of us think the owner should not be responsible in this case, but then the disrepair we are dealing

1139
with is not the fault of the owner but arises from being out of accord with the by-laws or the general standard of housing in the district. That is a different matter, and I am sure the noble Earl appreciates that it is of importance to keep those two matters distinct. Therefore I hope he will be satisfied that our Amendment is sufficient. It is not the same test of "disrepair" as the others.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: It exonerates the landlord from doing repairs, but supposing the tenant does not do them, the houses will still be liable to be demolished.
LORD PARMOOR: If it comes within the terms of Clause 1, yes.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am afraid we are wholly unconvinced by the noble and learned Lords argument. So far as subsection (3) is concerned it
Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.

LORDS AMENDMENT.
Page 54, line 41, leave out ("or for laying out as an open space")
The Commons agree to the above Amendment and propose the following consequential Amendment to the Bill:
Page 5, line 27, leave out ("or the laying out of open spaces")
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, this is a consequential Amendment, which is, of course, agreed upon. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Parmoor.)
appears that the effect depends upon the definition of "disrepair," and therefore it is very material to know what the definition of "disrepair" is. Many of us would say that whatever the by-law might say, the house would not really be unfit for human habitation, but if you say it is unfit because it is in disrepair, and "disrepair" includes want of paper and proper paint, then you have a sort of artificial provision that "unfit for human habitation" does turn upon the fact whether the house is properly painted and papered. That is what we wish to avoid, and it appears necessary to say exactly what "disrepair" does mean.
LORD PARMOOR: I will not speak again upon it, but of course you know I do not agree.
On Question, Whether this House shall insist on the said Amendments?
Their Lordships divided:-Contents, 34; Not Contents, 14.

CONTENTS.

Bath, M.

Plymouth, E.

Biddulph, L.

Linlithgow, M.

Stanhope, E.

Danesfort, L.

Salisbury, M.

Desborough, L.

Bertie of Thame, V. [Teller.]

Dynevor, L.

Effingham, E.

Faringdon, L.

Grey, E.

Falkland, V.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Iddesleigh, E.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Lawrence, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Novar, V.

Phillimore, L. [Teller.]

Lindsey, E.

Sinclair, L.

Lucan, E.

Addington, L.

Strachie, L.

Midleton, E.

Alvingham, L.

Wharton, L.

Onslow, E.

Auckland, L.

Wigan, L. (E. Crawford.)

Peel, E.

Bayford, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Mersey, V.

Marks, L.

Marley, L. [Teller.]

Parmoor, L. (L. President.)

Amulree, L.

Sanderson, L.

Clwyd, L.

Stanmore, L.

De La Warr, E.

Gainford, L.

Thomson, L.

Russell, E.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.]

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, we agree.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Committee appointed to prepare Reasons to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to one of the Commons Amendments and insisting on certain of their own Amendments; the Committee to meet forthwith.
Report from the Committee of the Reasons to be offered to the Commons, read and agreed to; and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to return the Bill with the Reasons.

LAND DRAINAGE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY or AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
[The references are to Bill No. 152.]
Clause 1, page 2, line 6, after ("deemed") insert ("for the purposes of this Act")
Clause 1, page 2, line 8, after ("treated") insert ("for those purposes")
Clause 2, page 2, line 31, at end insert ("and in particular where the naturai direction of the drainage of any land has been artificially altered, an order under this subsection may be made specifying the catchment area, if any, to which the land in question is to belong")
Clause 3, page 3, line 2, leave out ("thirty") and insert ("thirty-one")
Clause 3, page 3, line 15, after ("with") insert ("and after taking into consideration nominations by")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, all these Amendments are drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 3, line 25, at end insert ("and the councils of counties in making such appointments shall secure that adequate representation is given to the urban districts within the catchment area having regard to the relative rateable values of the urban and rural districts therein")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this again is virtually a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 3, line 37 leave out ("one-third") and insert ("one-half")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this Amendment is intended to meet the municipal corporations, and it adjusts slightly the proportions of the members of catchment boards, the urban areas receiving a slightly increased representation. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 4, page 4, line 19, after ("liabilities") insert ("(including liabilities incurred in connection with works)")
Clause 4, page 5, line 4, at end insert ("or in the case of Commissioners of Sewers who exercise jurisdiction partly within and partly without the catchment area, the abrogation of the powers of those Commissioners within the catchment area")
Clause 4, page 5, line 23, leave out ("for altering or supplementing in any respect") and insert ("the making of alterations in and the addition of supplemental provisions to")
Clause 4, page 5, line 42, leave out ("and")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these Amendments are drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agreed with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 4, page 5, line 42, after ("borough") insert ("and district")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR moved, as an Amendment to the Commons Amendment, after "and" to insert "county." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a small drafting Amendment to the Commons Amendment. The subsection would then read:—
"As soon as any such scheme has been submitted to the Minister, the catchment board shall send copies thereof to the council of every county and county borough and county district."
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
After ("and") insert ("county").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons Amendment, as amended.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 4, page 6, line 1, leave out ("and")
Clause 4, page 6, line 1, after ("authority") insert ("harbour authority and conservancy authority")
Clause 4, page 6, line 13, leave out ("the preceding subsection") and insert ("subsection (1) of this Section")
Clause 5, page 6, line 27, after ("and") insert ("the watercourses which are")
Clause 5, page 6, line 27, leave out from ("purposes") to ("be") in line 28 and insert ("to")
EARL DE LA WARR:: My Lords, these Amendments are drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 6, line 28, at end insert:
("As soon as a map of a catchment area has been prepared the Minister shall cause to be published, in one or more newspapers circulating in the area, a notice stating that the map has been prepared and specifying the place at which a copy of the map may be inspected and the time (not being less than one month) within which and the manner in which objections thereto may be made.
(2) On the expiration of the time within which objections may be made as aforesaid, the Minister shall, if no objections have been made, forthwith approve the map as prepared and, if any objections have been made, shall take those objections into consideration and after so doing proceed to approve the map, either as prepared or with such variations as he thinks proper.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to enable criticism to be directed, where necessary, at the extent of the main river as marked on the map. I think it is reasonable that those in the district who are interested should have an opportunity of indicating to the Minister that the main river as marked on the map is either too much or too little. That is the purpose of the Amendment which we accepted in another place, and I beg to move that your Lordships agree to it.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 6, line 30, leave out from ("board") to the end of line 32 and insert ("and after giving notice of his intention so to do in such manner as he thinks best adapted for informing persons affected and after considering any objections made to him, vary the map of the catchment area so far as relates to the extent of the main river.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, the next Amendment is drafting, and I beg to move that it be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 6, line 33, leave out ("prepared") and insert ("as approved or as varied")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this again is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 6, line, 38, leave out ("prepared") and insert ("in force")
EARL DE LA WARR: This also is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that your Lordships agree to it.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La, Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 6, line 41, at end insert:
("(6) The Minister shall, so soon as may be after the constitution of a catchment board, supply to the catchment board a copy of the map of the catchment area as approved by him, and if at any time thereafter he varies the map he shall supply to that board a copy of the map as varied.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this, too, is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 7, line 1, leave out sub-sections (1) and (2) and insert:
("(1) The powers conferred by this Act on drainage hoards shall so far as concerns the main river including the banks thereof and drainage works in connection with the main river be exercisable solely by the catchment board.
(2) Where a catchment area abuts on the sea or on any estuary the catchment board of that area may construct all such works and do all such things in the sea or in that estuary as may, in their opinion, be necessary to secure an adequate outfall for the main river.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships agree with this drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 7, line 14, at end insert:
("(4) A catchment board may enter into an agreement with the council of any borough or urban district or with any navigation authority for the carrying out by the council or authority, on such terms as to payment and otherwise as may be specified in the agreement, of any work in connection with the main river which the catchment board are authorised to carry out.")
LORD STRACHIE LORD STRACHIE moved, as an Amendment to the Commons Amendment, after the first "any" to insert "county or." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is really a very small Amendment, but the County Councils Association think it very desirable that a county council may have the same power as a borough or urban district in regard to the carrying out, of these works; that is to say, that a catchment board may enter into agreement with the county council on such terms as may ho specified in the agreement to carry out any works in connection with the main river which a catchment board is authorised to carry out. All that the County Councils Association is anxious to do is to insert after the word "any" in the second line of the Commons Amendment the words "county or." The object is to give the county council precisely the same opportunity as a borough or urban district has of carrying out works if the catchment board think fit. There may be cases in which it would be very desirable for the catchment board to employ the
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county council as their agents, and the board might desire to do so. As the clause now stands the county council would be debarred. That does not seem to be very reasonable. This is merely a permissive question and I am sure your Lordships who are members of county councils will see that it is only fair and just that county councils should have an opportunity of carrying out these works if a catchment board asks them to do so. Surely, it is in the interests of the county council and of the ratepayers generally.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
After the first ("any") insert ("county or").—(Lord Strachie.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I should be much happier if we had some idea of what the Amendment is.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY): The Commons Amendment is to insert at the end of line 14—
"A catchment board may enter into an agreement with the council of any borough"
and so on, and the noble Lord's Amendment is to insert "county or" before "borough"; so that it would read:
"A catchment board may enter into an agreement with the council of any county or borough or urban district."
EARL DE LA WARR: Your Lordships would like perhaps an explanation of the Commons Amendment before discussing this Amendment. The purpose of the Amendment was to deal with certain rather exceptional cases. The particular towns that were in our minds at the moment were Cambridge, Bedford and one or two others to which the river is particularly important both from an aesthetic and an amenity point of view. They have been carrying out this work very satisfactorily and it was felt that it might be desirable to make provision whereby in these special circumstances the work might continue to be carried out by those towns. The insertion of such an Amendment, as I think your Lordships will realise, is quite a different matter from accepting the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Strachie. To begin with in this case it will only be exercised in very exceptional cases and a small borough such as Cambridge will

1147
not really make any very large hole in the area. When I say "small" I mean in comparison with the area of a county.
EARL PEEL: The noble Earl will be calling Bedford a small town next.
EARL DE LA WARR: The basis of the Bill is the handing over to the catchment board the control of the main river. If we accept the Amendment of the noble Lord there will be the possibility of great stretches of the river coming out of the control of the catchment board, and that would upset the whole basis of the Bill. For that reason I hope that the noble Lord will not press his Amendment. We certainly cannot accept it.
LORD BAYFORD: My Lords, this is a new point to me altogether. I am rather frightened by the proposal of my noble friend for a different reason from that given by the noble Earl opposite. I think that county councils have quite enough work to do already. Certainly I should say of the one of which my noble friend is a distinguished member that that is the case, and it rather appals me to think that by a clause put into the Bill at the very last moment of the last hour of its consideration we should place such a serious additional burden as this upon the county councils of the country. Therefore, I am not prepared to support this Amendment.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, in reply to my noble friend Lord Bayford, who talks of this Amendment putting a bur-
Resolved in the negative, and Amendment to the Commons Amendment disagreed to accordingly.
den on the county councils, I am sorry that he is afraid of work for the county councils. I would remind him that it is the County Councils Association who are asking for this Amendment and they are not afraid of the burden. It is entirely an optional power—optional both for the county council and the catchment board. I agree that all the arguments used by the noble Earl opposite would be effective and I should not object to them if this Amendment was concerned with compulsory powers. It is not. It is entirely at the option of the catchment board whether they ask the county council to carry out the work or not. Surely the catchment boards are the proper people to say whether they think the work will be better done by themselves or by the local authority. Boroughs are included and I cannot see why county councils should not be.
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, I beg to support my noble friend Lord Strachie. I, too, cannot see why county councils should be left out of this provision. If a catchment board may make an agreement with an urban district council, which is not a very great body, surely they ought to be able to make an agreement with a county council which is a much larger authority. This, of course, is a purely optional right.
On Question, Whether the proposed Amendment to the Commons Amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 4; Not-Contents, 37.

CONTENTS.

Dynevor, L, [Teller.]

Strachie, L. [Teller.]

Wharton, L.

Lawrence, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Peel, E.

Danesfort, L.

Plymouth, E.

Desborough, L.

Parmoor, L. (L. President.)

Stanhope, E.

Faringdon, L.

Bath, M.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Linlithgow, M.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Gainford, L.

Salisbury, M.

Falkland, V.

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.]

De La Warr, E.

FitzAlan of Derwent, V.

Effingham, E.

Novar, V.

Marley, L. [Teller.]

Grey, E.

Phillimore, L.

Iddesleigh, E.

Alvingham, L.

Sanderson, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Amulree, L.

Sinclair, L.

Lucan, E.

Auckland, L.

Thomson, L.

Midleton, E.

Bayford, L.

Wraxall, L.

Onslow, E.

Biddulph, L.

Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 6, page 7, line 16, after ("any") insert ("work is, or whether any")
Clause 6, page 7, line 16, leave out ("work of arterial drainage") and insert ("drainage work in connection with the main river")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments, and I move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 7, line 18, at end insert ("or if either of the parties so requires to the arbitration of a single arbitrator to be appointed in default of agreement by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers on the application of either party")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I move that this Amendment be agreed to.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, I should like to say one word on this question because it raises the whole matter of the appeal tribunal. If your Lordships will look at the Amendment, at page 7, line 18, you will see it is proposed at the end to insert:—
or if either of the parties so requires to the arbitration of a single arbitrator to be appointed in default of agreement by the President of the institution of Civil Engineers on the application of either party."
Then it is proposed to leave out lines 19 and 20, which say:—
"Provided that any person aggrieved by the decision of the Minister may appeal to the appeal tribunal."
There are many Amendments on the Paper to do away with the appeal tribunal, which was inserted at the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Bayford and myself. I should like to hear from your Lordships what your opinion is on that question.
Later on, the whole of the clauses containing the appeal tribunal are to be swept away if the Government have their way. I was under the impression that we had come to an agreement in this House on the question of the appeal tribunal. In fact we gave way a little in this House in Committee
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so that the Government had their Provisional Orders in certain cases where they want them. I certainly understood that would be adhered to in another place. We were, in setting up the appeal tribunal, carrying out the suggestion and the proposals of the Royal Commission on Drainage, which said they wanted such an appeal tribunal, and laid down how it should be formed. We followed their suggestions in the Bill. Now the whole of that appeal tribunal is to go. In certain cases there is to be an arbitration, but I think it is very unsatisfactory that we should be asked to do away with the whole of the tribunal which was more or less agreed, as I understood, when the Bill left your Lordships' House. I should like to hear what the noble Earl has to say.
LORD DANESFORT: My Lords, I so entirely agree with the views of my noble friend who has just spoken that I venture to go one step further than he has done, and move to disagree with the Commons Amendment on line 18, so as to restore this appeal tribunal in this place with a view to restoring it in other places. It certainly came as a considerable surprise to many of us to find that this appeal tribunal recommended by the Royal Commission, and powerfully supported by the National Farmers Union and other important bodies, was to be completely swept away. The tribunal was, by the decision of your Lordships' House, made applicable not only in Clause 6, which is now under consideration, but also in Clause 7. I suppose I should be in order, to save time, in referring to the wide effect which the sweeping away of this tribunal would have. Clause 7, as introduced into your Lordships' House, gave power to the Minister to make very important and far-reaching Orders as to drainage, and that decision of the Minister was to be conclusive. Your Lordships, following the advice of the Royal Commission, very properly said that the Minister's discretion should not be uncontrolled, and that his decision should be subject to an appeal tribunal. So much for Clause 7.
Then there was Clause 12, in some ways even a more important matter, because by Clause 12 the Minister was given power, by his sole discretion, to enforce performance Of their duties by the catchment boards. Your

1151
Lordships see what that means. The Minister might say: "Your duty is to spend an immense sum of money upon certain drainage purposes," and as the Bill stood there was no appeal of any sort or kind from the decision of the Minister. Your Lordships, when the Bill was before you, decided that there again there should be an appeal. Now in those three cases that are now under consideration the appeal has been swept away. In the one case—namely, under Clause 6—instead of the appeal to the tribunal there is a permissive appeal to a single arbitrator. Under Clause 7, instead of the appeal to the tribunal there is a most astonishing provision, as it appears to me. The Minister can do exactly what he likes. All he has got to do after making his decision is to make a report to Parliament giving his reasons for the decision. The same process applies in the case of Clause 12. The Minister can do what he likes in both these cases and then he has to make his report.
Let it not be said that the making of that report to Parliament as to the decision of the Minister gives any possible cause for relief to the persons aggrieved or gives them any effective opportunity of correcting the decision of the Minister. Of course it is quite true that if the decision of the Minister was challenged in Parliament and there was a debate on the subject, and if Parliament sitting as a whole were competent to deal with these technical and often exceptionally difficult questions, it is possible, theoretically, that the person aggrieved might get redress from Parliament. But that is really so remote and so practically impossible that it would mean no effective redress at all. Therefore, I venture to urge the Government to restore the clauses of the Bill and to give the persons who are affected, and who consider themselves injuriously affected by the decision of the Minister, that right of appeal to the tribunal which the Commission recommended.
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, should like to ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill if he is aware that the Chairman of the Parliamentary Committee of the National Farmers Union has represented to the Minister of Agriculture that the farmers would sooner this Bill be dropped than that the appeal clauses inserted by your Lordships' House should be cut out? This Bill,
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as I understand it, represents an effort by the Government—almost the solitary effort of this Government—to aid agriculture.
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR indicated dissent.
L0RD PHILLIMORE: Am I wrong?
EARL DE LA WARR: There was an announcement made in another place to-day.
LORD PHILLIMORE: If it is so, although I do not wish to put the claims of the National Farmers Union too high, the Bill should at least receive some measure of support from the farming community. The support of the farming community depends on the appeal clauses being reinstated. I am going to ask the noble Earl whether the Government's decision in this matter is final, or whether it is not possible to follow the line which the noble Lord below me indicated was the line taken by the Commission and is also the line taken by the farming community and to rein state the appeal clauses in the Bill?
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, His Majesty's Government are quite aware of the feelings of some of your Lordships on this subject and also of the feelings of the National Farmers Union, and I think therefore it just as well that, as the noble Lord, Lord Dynevor, suggested, we should have a general discussion on this question on this Amendment. Then, if your Lordships agree, I think we might allow the matter to be settled by whatever decision we come to on it. Your Lordships will remember that the whole of this appeal question was discussed very thoroughly in your Lordships' House when the Bill first came before the House, and it was finally agreed that with regard to questions of major policy, involving Ministerial decisions, the proper course was to proceed by the ordinary Provisional Order procedure, which is at present in force under the existing drainage law, by which various things may be done by Orders by the Minister, which Orders in the case of opposition have to be submitted to Parliament for confirmation.
Orders of this kind follow the ordinary procedure prevailing in Parliament, namely, First and Second Readings, Committee Stage, Report, Third Reading in

1153
both Houses. In respect of other questions it will be remembered that the Government were forced to accept an appeal to a specially constituted appeal tribunal, although in one or two isolated cases an appeal was provided to an independent arbitrator. While we are on that, perhaps I might deal with the point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Dynevor, when he said that he thought the Government had accepted the appeal tribunal during the Committee stage in your Lordships' House.
LORD DYNEVOR: Accepted the compromise.
EARL DE LA WARR: The compromise? I am afraid that at the moment I have not the actual words I used, but I have read them very carefully since and I did make it quite clear that the appeal tribunal was only accepted as a compromise in your Lordships' House and that I could not commit my right hon. friend as to his course of action in another place. I will have the reference looked up, but on the Committee stage I made it quite clear that I could not commit the Minister in another place. I think if the noble Lord refers to the OFFICIAL REPORT he will find that that is so. When the Bill left another place the Provisional Order procedure, requiring confirmation by Parliament in case of opposition, was provided for in the following clauses: Clause 2, Clause 4 (1) (b), Clause 8, Clause 11, Clause 16 and Clause 40. In the present Bill your Lordships will find the clauses are numbered in the same way. On the other hand, an appeal to the appeal tribunal was provided for when it left us in Clause 6, Clause 7, Clause 12, and Clause 42 (that is Clause 44 in the present Bill). Lastly, in Clause 9 in both Bills the appeal was left to an independent arbitrator to be appointed in default of agreement by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers.
Now, in approaching this whole question the Government have endeavoured to view the situation as far as possible from the point of view of constitutional practice. With this end in view they came to the conclusion that they could not consent to any action which would deprive Parliament of its proper rights. These can only be safeguarded in the manner indicated—either by requiring Orders to be confirmed by Parliament if
1154
they are opposed, or by requiring the Minister to make a report to Parliament or in some way to bring the matter to the attention of Parliament. The general principle, therefore, which has commended itself to us, has been that major questions should be dealt with by Order to be confirmed by Parliament, minor questions of policy should be reported to Parliament, while technical questions should go where possible to an independent technical arbitrator, or, alternatively, either to the Minister or to such arbitrator. This principle was accordingly applied to the Bill as it left your Lordships' House. It will be seen that, in the Bill at that stage, there was a comparatively small number of instances in which an appeal was required to be made to the ad hoc appeal tribunal which was to be constituted under Clause 53 of the Bill as it reached the Commons. Actually, there were only the four cases that have been enumerated.
If we examine the clauses the effect of this will be seen. Let us take Clause 6. It was decided that the question there arising is the decision in connection with the main river, and we considered that this was essentially a matter that should be decided by the Minister himself acting on the advice of his technical advisers. In other words, it was a technical question, but words have now been added providing for an alternative method of appeal to an independent arbitrator, to be appointed, in default of agreement, by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers. That is an addition to the Bill that has been made to meet your Lordships' point. As regards Clause 7, this is scarcely a question of policy. If your Lordships will look at the Bill, you will see that the question is that of the supervision of internal drainage boards and districts by catchment boards, and the only questions on which disagreement could arise in that matter are questions of policy. Apart from that, the disadvantages of an appeal tribunal in a case likely to arise under this clause are considerable, because it is not unlikely that a drainage authority desiring to appeal under this clause against the action of a catchment board would prefer to appeal to the Minister himself, with whom such a board is in constant contact and with whom their relations will probably have been

1155
of a very close nature. It was felt that in this case the appeal should lie to the Minister but, in order to comply with constitutional practice, he is required to lay before Parliament a report giving particulars of any question referred to him under the clause and the reason for his decision.
As regards Clause 12, amendment was made providing that here also the Minister shall lay before Parliament a report setting out any directions he may give and the reasons for which they were given. This again is in the direction of safeguarding the point about which your Lordships are anxious. As regards Clause 42, which is now Clause 44, it was felt that this was a matter of a purely technical nature and could more properly be dealt with by an independent arbitrator, to he appointed, in the event of disagreement, by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers. In the light of these decisions it became obvious that the prime reason for the constitution of an appeal tribunal had disappeared, and it was therefore unnecessary to provide for such an expensive body, which would really have nothing to do. For these reasons I hope that the noble Lord who has raised this matter will realise that, although the machinery of the appeal tribunal itself has been removed in another place, at the same time this point has been very carefully considered and adequate substitutes, at any rate in some of the cases, have been inserted in the Bill. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will decide not to press the point.
LORD BAYFORD: My Lords, as one of those who were responsible for moving the Amendment under which the appeal tribunal was inserted, I should like to say just one word about this question. I must say that I think it is a matter for regret that the Government have not accepted what we certainly understood them to agree to at the time when the matter was before this House. At all events, I think our action has had one good effect. In the Bill as it first came before your Lordships the powers of the Minister were of the most arbitrary description possible and, if it has done nothing else, the insertion of this clause has had the effect of some provision for a check on the decision of the Minister being put into the Bill
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in every case. The check is not in every case so strong as we on this side of the House would wish, but at all events I think we have to acknowledge that it is better than nothing.
With regard to the actual question of the appeal tribunal, when the provision was struck out in the House of Commons it was proposed by a certain number of members to raise the question again on the Report stage. It was found that the rules of order in the House of Commons prevented their doing so. I have had conversations with those members of the House of Commons who are interested in the subject, and. I did not gather that they showed any anxiety to press for the restoration of the appeal tribunal in your Lordships' House. It is, of course, pretty clear that it would be very difficult for us to do so, for if your Lordships will look at Clause 53, you will see that the last subsection says:—
"Any such remuneration and any other expenses of the appeal tribunal incurred in the exercise and performance of their power and duties so far as the aforesaid expenses are not met out of the amount recovered by way of fees, shall be defrayed by the Treasury out of moneys provided by Parliament."
I think we may fairly assume that, if we were to re-insert that provision, the question of Privilege would be raised in the House of Commons in a fairly emphatic form. Accordingly it does not seem to me that it would he wise to press for the re-insertion of this clause in the present circumstances, much as I regret its having been taken out.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, it is only by your Lordships' consent that I can say another word, but I have found the quotation to which I referred. It is as follows:—
"At the same time, the matter is in your Lordships' hands, and if your Lordships on this Amendment decree otherwise, then, of course, without in any way committing my right hon. friend the Minister of Agriculture as to his future action—"
and so on. I thought that I should just like to make that point clear.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 7, leave out lines 19 and 20.
Clause 7, page 8, leave out lines 9 and 10.
Clause 7, page 8, line 33, at end insert:
("Where the Minister gives any decision under this section he shall make and cause

1157
to be laid before Parliament a report giving particulars of the question referred to him and of the reasons for his decision.")
Clause 9, page 9, line 24, leave out ("walls") and insert ("banks")
Clause 9, page 9, line 38, at end insert the following new subsections:
("(3) Any capital sum or terminable annuity fixed under this section shall, notwithstanding any agreement to The contrary between the owner and any lessee of the land, be payable by the owner.
(4) Where any obligation is commuted under this section any person who would, but for the commutation, be entitled to any exemption in respect of drainage rates, either absolutely as being the person subject to the obligation or conditionally on performance of the obligation, shall be entitled absolutely to a like exemption.")
Clause 10, page 11, line 19, leave out ("power") and insert ("powers").
Clause 11, page 12, line 32, at end insert:
("Provided that an order under this section, if opposed, shall be provisional only and shall not have effect until confirmed by Parliament.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are all drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 12, page 12, line 34, leave out ("county")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR moved that this Amendment be disagreed to and in lieu thereof proposed the following Amendment—namely, page 12, line 34, to leave out "or." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment to which we desire to move a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 34, leave out ("or").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 12, page 12, line 34, after ("borough") insert ("or county district or by any internal drainage board")
Clause 12, page 12, line 37, leave out ("in repair the banks and bed of")
Clause 12, page 12, line 38, after ("river") insert ("in a due state of efficiency")
Clause 12, page 13, line 5, leave out subsection (2) and insert:
("(2) Where the Minister gives any directions to a catchment board under this section he shall make and cause to be laid before Parliament a report setting out the directions and stating the reasons for which they were given.")
Clause 13, page 13, line 10, leave out ("and")
Clause 13, page 13, line 12, leave out ("of these orders") and insert ("orders under this part of this Act")
Clause 13, page 13, line 13, at end, insert ("and the provisions set out in Part III of that Schedule shall have effect with respect to the validity of such orders under this Part of this Act as are not confirmed by Parliament").
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 13 insert the following new clause:
Provision as to expenses in connection with orders under Part II.
"14. An order under this Part of this Act may contain provisions with respect to the persons by whom the expenses or any of the expenses incurred by the Minister or other persons in connection with the making or confirmation of the order (including, in the case of an order confirming a scheme, expenses incurred in connection with the making of the scheme) are to be borne or the rates upon which the expenses are to be charged."
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this clause puts in the Bill the same provisions that were contained in the Act of 1918 in respect of Orders made. It is necessary to have some provisions as otherwise the whole expense of making Orders for the benefit of local districts would fall upon the Ministry, and that would be undesirable.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to,

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 16, page 13, line 37, leave out ("internal")
Clause 16, page 14, line 17, at end insert ("or if the jurisdiction of the Commissioners extends into a catchment area, for abrogating their powers outside the catchment area")
Clause 17, page 15, line 10, after ("making") insert ("and validity")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl be La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 19, page 16, line 30, leave out from the beginning to ("the") in line 31.
LORD BAYFORD LORD BAYFORD had given Notice that he would move to disagree to this Amendment and propose in lieu thereof the following Amendment—namely, page 16, lines 30 and 31, to leave out "limitations prescribed by Section twenty-one" and to insert "provisions of this Part." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment, which is one of a series standing in my name. As they all hang together, I had better explain their object to the House although the Government have agreed to accept them. The proposal, as it left the House, was that a catchment board might not issue a precept upon counties and county boroughs involving more than a halfpenny rate without the consent of these authorities. The House of Commons cut that out and put in a make-believe right of appeal on which I will say a word later. This Amendment says that, unless the majority of the representatives of the counties and county boroughs on the catchment board consent, no rate of more than twopence may be levied by the catchment board on those counties and county boroughs. I am not prepared to say that this gives absolute security, but it is some safeguard. The new clause on page 19 of the Amendments by which the Government propose to meet the case is really no safeguard at all. It merely says that before approving a scheme the Minister shall cause a public inquiry to be held. The Minister is not even bound by the findings of the body he has appointed to enquire. That is a form of appeal which really is not worth preserving. I am not prepared to say that these Amendments give us all that we
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could wish, but some of us have been in consultation with the Government for some time upon this subject and I can assure my friends, though we did not get all that we hoped to get, the Government did make some attempt to meet us and I understand that they are prepared to accept the Amendment which I now move.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment and propose in lieu thereof the following Amendment: Page 16, lines 30 and 31, leave out ("limitations prescribed by Section twenty-one") and insert ("provisions of this Part").—(Lord Bayford.)
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, in accepting the proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Bayford, I need only detain your Lordships for a moment in order to state the position of His Majesty s Government. Like the noble Lord, we are not entirely happy upon this final Amendment, but it is a compromise and we think really a very fair one because, although we are not entirely happy about the matter, we do recognise that the position of the county councils at the moment is a difficult one and they have naturally to safeguard the ratepayers whom they represent. I accept the Amendment.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 19, page 16, line 33, leave out from ("met") to ("otherwise") in line 34.
Clause 19, page 17, line 23, leave out ("list") and insert ("statement of the totals")
Clause 20, page 19, line 12, leave out ("and his decision shall be final")
Clause 20, page 19, Line 13, at end insert the following subsection:
("(6) Where the Minister makes an order under this section, he shall make and cause to be laid before Parliament particulars of the matter in respect of which the appeal was made and of the reasons for Ids order.")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La, Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 21, page 19, line 21, leave out from ("and") to ("a") in line 22.
LORD BAYFORD: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment and propose the following Amendment in lieu thereof: Page 19, line 22, leave out "(3)" and insert "(2)."—(Lord Bayford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 21, page 19, line 26, leave out subsections (2) and (3).
LORD BAYFORD LORD BAYFORD moved that this Amendment be agreed to and proposed to insert in Clause 21 instead of the said subsections (2) and (3) the following subsection:
"(2) The aggregate amount which may be demanded under this Part of this Act in any one financial year by a catchment board from the council of any county or county borough shall not, except with the consent of the majority of those members of the catchment board who are appointed by the councils of counties and county boroughs exceed the estimated amount which would be produced by a rate of twopence in the pound levied on that part of the county or county borough which is within the catchment area:
Provided that where the catchment board has borrowed or is about to borrow any money in pursuance of this Act the foregoing provisions shall, if the said members or the majority thereof so resolve, have effect during the currency of the loan as if the said sum of twopence were increased by such amount as is specified in the resolution.
In this subsection the expression 'financial year' means a year ending on the thirty-first day of March."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment and proposes a consequential Amendment.— (Lord Bayford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 21, page 20, line 7, after ("applied") insert ("and of the basis of calculation of such amount")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment inserted by the Commons, and I have an Amendment to make to it, namely, to leave out from "basis" to the end of the Amendment and insert "upon which it is calculated."
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Leave out from ("basis") to the end of the Amendment and insert ("upon which it is calculated").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment to the Commons Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 21, page 20, line 14, leave out (4) and insert (2).
LORD BAYFORD: I have an Amendment to insert (3) instead of (2).
Amendment to the Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 14 ("leave out (4) and insert (3)").—(Lord Bayford.)
EARL DE LA WARR: I do not oppose.
On Question, Amendment to the Commons Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 22, page 20, line 19, leave out from ("shall") to end of subsection, and insert ("be defrayed in one or other of the following ways according as the county council, having regard to the benefit, if any, derived by various areas, think just and equitable, that is to say:—

(a) as expenses for general county purposes; or

(b) as expenses for special county purposes chargeable on such part or parts of the county within the catchment area as the council think fit; or

(c) by apportioning it between and charging it on such portions of the catchment area and in such proportions as the council think fit and by the issue of precepts accordingly to rating authorities.")

Clause 22, page 20, line 29, leave out from ("shall") to end of subsection, and insert ("be defrayed in one or other of the following ways according as the council of the borough, having regard to the benefit, if any, derived by various areas, think just and equitable, that is to say:—

(a) out of the general rate fund of the borough; or

(b) out of the proceeds of an additional item of the general rate levied in such part of the borough within the catchment area as the council think fit; or

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(c) out of the proceeds of several additional items of the general rate levied at such differential rates and in such parts of the borough within the catchment area as the council think fit.")

Clause 23, page 20, line 36, after ("this") insert ("or any other")
Clause 23, page 20, line 42, after ("made") insert ("under and in accordance with this Act")
Clause 23, page 21, line 11, at end insert:
("Provided that as regards any rates raised in order to defray expenses incurred, or charges in respect of liabilities incurred, before the commencement of this Act, the provisions as to the incidence of rates contained in Section thirty-eight of the Land Drainage Act, 1861, or in the case of rates raised under any local Act the corresponding provisions in that Act, shall have effect substitution for the provisions of this subsection.")
Clause 23, page 21, line 15, leave out from ("district") to ("in") in line 18.
Clause 23, page 21, leave out lines 24 to 29 and insert ("every rate made by a drainage board shall be")
Clause 23, page 21, line 33, leave out ("but") and insert ("and")
Clause 23, page 21, line 34, leave out ("per acre or")
Clause 23, page 21, line 36, leave out from the beginning to the end- of line 7 in page 22.
Clause 23, page 22, line 8, leave out ("an agricultural hereditament") and insert ("agricultural land")
Clause 23, page 22, line 9, leave out ("hereditament") and insert ("land")
Clause 23, page 22, line 10, leave out ("hereditament") and insert ("land")
Clause 23, page 22, line 11, at end insert:
("Provided that where at the commencement of this Act a drainage board was levying drainage rates on the basis of acreage or partly on the basis of acreage and partly on the basis of annual value any rate made by that board at any time within the period of six months next following the commencement of this Act may be made on any basis on which it might have been made if this section had not been passed.")
Clause 23, page 22, line 13, leave out ("such a railway as is mentioned in subsection (3) of this section") and insert ("railway constructed under the powers of any Act of Parliament for public conveyance".)
Clause 23, page 22, line 15, after ("and") insert ("annual")
Clause 23, page 22, line 18, after ("or") insert ("annual")
Clause 23, page 22, line 21, after ("and") insert ("annual")
Clause 23, page 22, line 22, at end insert ("provided that the annual value of the
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adjoining land shall for the purposes of this subsection be deemed to be reduced by such proportion thereof, if any, as is in the opinion of the drainage board ascribable to buildings")
Clause 23, page 22, line 25, leave out from ("if") to ("make") in line 28, and insert ("having regard to all the circumstances of the case they think it is just so to do")
Clause 23, page 22, line 31, leave out from ("amount") to ("per") in line 32.
EARL DE LA WARR: These are all drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 23, page 23, line 10, leave out subsections (10) and (11).
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, these are what I call the publicity subsections, letting people know what is going on, and I would like to know why they are to be left out.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I understand it is reference to a Minister, and in this case it is considered unnecessary to refer to him. For that reason it is proposed to leave out subsections (10) and (11).
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I understand from my noble friend Lord Dynevor, that he relies upon these two subsections because they have the effect of publicity. I do not know whether the noble Earl suggests that by striking them out here he is going to put them in in another place, and that therefore they are drafting. Otherwise, they appear to be substantial subsections.
EARL DE LA WARR: I am informed that we do not attach very much importance to the matter, but would prefer to leave out the subsections. If the noble Lord insists we will keep them in.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Then we had better keep them in.
On Question, Motion negatived and Commons Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 23, page 23, line 20, leave out from ("order") to the end of line 21.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 25, page 25, line 31, leave out from ("rate") to the end of line 32 and insert ("in any case where the amount payable is, in their opinion, insufficient to justify the expense of collection")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 28, page 26, line 29, leave out ("cottage gardens exceeding one quarter of an acre")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this is not quite a drafting Amendment. It was inserted to meet a point raised in Committee in another place, that this definition would work unfairly if retained in the Bill. Accordingly, I am moving to leave out these words, which will exclude from rating as agricultural land all cottage gardens whether occupied by a person of the labouring class or not. They will still be rated at only one-third of the annual value. I move that the Commons Amendment be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 28, page 26, line 39, leave out from ("racecourse") to the end of line 43.
Clause 28, page 27, line 2, leave out ("hereditament") and insert ("land")
Clause 28, page 27, line 3, leave out ("hereditament") and insert ("land")
Clause 28, page 27, line 3, leave out ("hereditament") and insert ("land")
Clause 28, page 27, line 8, leave out ("property") and insert ("land")
Clause 28, page 27, line 10, leave out ("a hereditament") and insert ("any land")
Clause 28, page 27, line 12, leave out ("property") and insert ("lard")
Clause 30, page 28, line 27, leave out from ("recovered") to the end of line 33, and insert ("by a drainage hoard in the same manner in which arrears of a general rate may, under the Rating and Valuation
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Act 1952, be recovered by a rating authority.")
Clause 30, page 29, line 25, at end insert:
"(5) The powers conferred by this section shall be deemed to be conferred in addition to, and not in substitution for, the powers conferred by any provisions of any local Act on any drainage board in relation to arrears of drainage rates, and for the purposes of any such provisions a rate made under this Act shall be deemed to be a rate to which those provisions apply.")
Clause 32, page 30, line 5, leave out ("other than catchment boards")
EARL DE LA WARR: These are all drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 32, page 30, line 21, after ("objections") insert ("and for securing that the registers shall he open for inspection")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment, to which desire to move a further drafting Amendment, namely, to leave out "shall be open for" and insert "are open to."
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Leave out ("shall be open for") and insert ("are open to").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 32, page 30, line 29, at end insert:
("(4) This section shall not apply—

(a) to a catchment board; or

(b) to a drainage board existing at the commencement of this Act unless applied to the board by a scheme under Part II, or an order under Part III of this Act.")

Clause 33, page 30, line 35, leave out from ("or") to the end of line 36, and insert ("drainage work")
Clause 33, page 30, line 39, leave out ("or outfall for water")
Clause 33, page 30, line 41, leave out ("or outfalls for water")
Clause 33, page 30, line 42, leave out from ("otherwise") to the end line 43, and insert ("improve any existing drainage work")
Clause 33, page 31, line 2, leave out from ("or") to the end of line 3, and insert ("drainage work or")
Clause 33, page 31, line 6, leave out from ("drainage") to ("of") in line 7.
Clause 33, page 31, line 8, at end insert ("provided that a catchment board shall not, by virtue only of this subsection, be taken to be authorised to do any work otherwise than in relation to the main river.")
Clause 33, page 31, line 25, at end insert:
("(4) It is hereby declared that nothing in this section authorises any person to enter on the land of any person except for the purpose of maintaining existing works.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are all drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 34, page 31, line 26, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
LORD DYNEVOR: My Lords, I think this is rather an important question. The clause is called "Maintenance of drains." The House of Commons is suggesting in perhaps a dozen places to alter the word "drain" and put in the word "watercourse." But the word "drain" was in the Bill as originally drafted when introduced in your Lordships' House, and later on I see that the definition of a watercourse on page 34 is also supposed to be altered, but as it stands now the definition of a "drain" on page 34 includes a stream, a ditch, a cut, a culvert, a dyke, or a sluice. So your Lordships will see that it does not include a watercourse. We are asked now to put in the word "watercourse' as well as "drain." I am advised that the word "watercourse" covers a larger matter than a. "drain" for the reason that a local authority can turn water into a watercourse but they have no power to turn water into a drain.
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Therefore, the drain that a landowner may be called upon to clear out is a much smaller thing than the watercourse that he may he called upon to clear out. Unless the Government can give me a very strong reason for the alteration in their original proposal I think we had better stick to the original word.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I hope I shall be able to satisfy the noble Lord. The principle of this clause was originally accepted by Parliament in connection with the Land Drainage Act, 1926, where it formed Section 2. The clause was designed to fulfil a long-felt want where persons were failing to maintain their drains, with the result that land in the vicinity was flooded through no fault of the owners of that land. The original section of the 1926 Act was drafted so that the clause only applied to "drains" which were defined as including any stream, ditch, cut, culvert, dyke or sluice. In this form the clause became part of the present Bill, and was Clause 34 in the Bill as it left this House. In the course of Committee in another place an Amendment was moved to omit the word "drain" and to substitute the word "watercourse" which in the Definition Clause of the Bill covers practically everything through which water flows from the largest river down to the smallest drain. Consequently the clause now appears as Clause 35 with "watercourse" included.
The point was at once raised, however, that the substitution of "watercourse" for drain would render it possible for the powers under the clause to be exercised unfairly—namely, against a riparian owner of a large river like the Thames. Accordingly, further Amendments were made by inserting in the clause a definite indication that the term "watercourse" was not intended to include the "main river," which is the responsibility of a catchment board. There need be no alarm, therefore, as to this clause being used unfairly, although "drain" has been altered to "watercourse," because there is still the appeal against a notice provided in subsection (5) which contains several heads under which an appeal can be made.
LORD DYNEVOR: I am afraid I am very dissatisfied. I do not realise at all why the words should be altered. If it

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is so important to have the word "watercourse" instead of the word "drain," why was it not put in before?
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 34, page 31, line 28, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 31, line 29, after ("operations") insert ("including brine pumping")
Clause 34, page 31, line 30, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 31, line 32, leave out from ("land") to ("to") in line 33, and insert ("through which the watercourse or that part of the watercourse passes")
Clause 34, page 31, line 34, leave out the first ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 31, line 34, leave out the second ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 31, line 40, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 31, line 43, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 32, line 5, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 32, line 12, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 32, line 30, after ("that") insert ("the control of the watercourse or the part of the watercourse in question is vested in some other person or that")
Clause 34, page 32, line 30, after ("is") insert ("otherwise")
Clause 34, page 32, line 32, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 32, line 40, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 33, line 5, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 33, line 8, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 34, line 6, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 34, line 9, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 34, line 13, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 34, page 34, line 16, leave out ("drain") and insert ("watercourse")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, all these Amendments are drafting. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 34, page 31, line 18, leave out subsections (13) and (14) and insert the following new subsections:
("(13) Nothing in the provisions of this Act relating to the commutation of obligations shall be deemed to apply to such obligations as are mentioned in this section.
(14) In this section the expression 'watercourse does not include the main river of a catchment area.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 35, page 34, line 32, leave out ("repair") and insert ("do any work in relation to")
Clause 35, page 34, line 33, leave out ("other outfall or defence against water") and insert ("drainage work (whether by way of repair, maintenance or otherwise)")
Clause 35, page 34, line 34, leave out ("keep it in good and proper repair") and insert ("do the work")
Clause 35, page 34, line 36, leave out ("outfall or defence") and insert ("or drainage work")
Clause 35, page 34, line 37, leave out ("repair") and insert ("do the work")
Clause 35, page 34, line 38, leave out ("put it in goad and proper repair") and insert ("de the necessary work")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these Amendments are all drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 40, page 37, line 6, leave out ("where") and insert:
(".—(1) If in the case of a navigation authority which is not exercising at all, or is not exercising to the necessary extent, the powers vested in it.")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR had given Notice to move that this Amendment be agreed to with the following Amendment—namely, to leave out the first "a" in line 1 of the Amendment and to insert "the." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a purely drafting Amendment.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Leave out the first ("a") in line 1 of the Amendment and insert ("the").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 40, page 37, line 7, leave out ("either")
Clause 40, page 37, line 8, leave out from ("land") to ("he") in line 11.
Clause 40, page 37, line 14, after ("over") insert ("or to the powers and duties of any navigation authority with respect to")
Clause 40, page 37, line 18, leave out ("navigation")
Clause 40, page 37, line 19, after ("rights") insert ("powers or duties")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After clause 40 insert the following new clause:—
Power of drainage board to levy navigation tolls in certain cases.
(".—(1) Where any navigable waters within a drainage district are not subject to the control of any navigation authority, harbour authority, or conservancy authority, the drainage board of that district may apply to the Minister of Transport for an order imposing tolls in respect of the navigation of vessels in those waters.
(2) An order under this section—

(i) shall not be made unless the Minister of Transport is satisfied that the cost of the maintenance or works in connection with the waters to which the order relates have been or will be increased as a result of the use of those waters for purposes of navigation; and

(ii) shall, if opposed, be provisional only and have no effect until confirmed by Parliament.

(3) The Minister of Transport may hold inquiries for the purposes of this section as if those purposes were purposes of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, and Section twenty of that Act shall have effect accordingly and he may make such order as to the payment of costs incurred by him in connection with any inquiry held under this section as he may think just.
(4) The provisions of Part II of the Second Schedule to this Act shall have effect with respect to orders under this section subject to this modification that references therein to the Minister shall be construed as references to the Minister of Transport.
(5) Any tolls payable under this section in respect of the navigation of a vessel in any such waters as aforesaid may be demanded from the person in charge of the vessel by any person authorised in that behalf by the drainage board and, if not paid upon demand, may be recovered summarily as a civil debt either from the person in charge of the vessel or from the owner thereof.")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR had given Notice to move that the Commons new clause be agreed to with the following Amendment —namely, in subsection (4) to leave out "this modification" and to insert "the modification." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment to the Amendment. It is purely drafting.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
In subsection (4) leave out ("this modification") and insert ("the modification").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 41, page 38, line 21, at end insert:—
("(3) This section shall not apply in relation to land belonging to—

(a) His Majesty in right of the Crown or the Duchy of Lancaster;

(b) the Duchy of Cornwall;

(c) a Government department;")

EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this Amendment is drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 42, page 38, line 37, leave out from ("to") to the end of line 40 and insert ("a single arbitrator to be agreed between the parties or, failing such agreement, to be appointed by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers on the application of either party to the difference after notice thereof to the other.")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR had given Notice to move that this Amendment be agreed to with the following Amendment—namely, to leave out "party" to the end of the Amendment. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment to the Amendment.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Leave out from ("party") to the end at the Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 42, page 39, line 42, leave out ("an obstruction")
Clause 42, page 39, line 43, after ("subsection") insert ("of an obstruction otherwise lawful")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that these drafting Amendments be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.— (Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 43, page 40, line 28, leave out ("has been acquired by") and insert ("belongs to His Majesty in the right of the Crown or the Duchy of Lancaster, or to the Duchy of Cornwall, or to a Government department, or which is vested in any local authority for the purposes of any Act or any Order having effect as an Act or in")
EARL DE LA WARR: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that it be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 41, line 38, leave out ("channels") and insert ("watercourses")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships agree with this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 45, page 41, line 40, leave out ("channels") and insert ("watercourses")
Clause 45, page 41, line 41, at end insert:
("Provided that no by-laws for such purposes shall be valid which would prevent
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reasonable facilities being afforded for enabling a watercourse to be used by stock for drinking purposes.")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments. — (Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 45, page 42, line 1, leave out ("channel") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 45, page 42, line 7, leave out ("watercourses") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 45, page 42, line 8, leave out ("watercourses") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 45, page 42, line 9, leave out ("watercourses") and insert ("watercourse")
Clause 45, page 42, line 9, leave out ("and remove")
Clause 45, page 42, line 10, leave out ("therein") and insert ("in the watercourse, and when cut to remove them therefrom")
Clause 45, page 42, line 18, at end insert ("and in the case of a by-law made by an internal drainage board has also been given to the council of every county, county borough, or county district whose area, or any part of whose area, is situate in the drainage district")
Clause 45, page 42, line 30, leave out ("such") and insert ("a public local")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 45, page 43, line 12, leave out ("or in the case of a continuing offence") and insert ("and a further fine")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 46, page 43, line 23, leave out ("salaries") and insert ("remuneration")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 46, page 44, line 1, leave out from ("accordingly") to end of line 2.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 48, page 44, line 40, leave out ("thirty-five") and insert ("thirty-six")
Clause 48, page 44, line 41, leave out ("forty-two") and insert ("forty-four")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 48 page 45, line 5, leave out ("thirty-four") and insert ("thirty-five")
Clause 48 page 45, line 15, leave out ("forty") and insert ("forty-one")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Leave out Clause 53 and insert as a new clause:
Contributions out of public moneys towards expenses incurred by catchment boards in improvement of existing works or construction of new works.
(".—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section the Minister may, out of moneys provided by Parliament, make grants towards expenditure incurred by catchment boards under this Act in the improvement of existing works or the construction of new works of such amounts as the Treasury may from time to time sanction
Provided that—

(a) no grant shall be made towards expenditure incurred in connection with any such improvement or construction unless the plans and sections therefor have been approved by the Minister, and the Minister is satisfied that the work thereon is being properly carried out;

(b) grants under this section shall be made subject to such conditions as may, with the approval of the Treasury, be prescribed.

(2) If it is shown to the Minister that any expenditure towards which a grant would if the work were properly carried out be properly payable under this section is about to be incurred by a catchment board the Minister may, if for any reason he considers it expedient so to do, and subject to the approval of the Treasury, and to such conditions as may with the like approval he prescribed, make advances to the board on account of the expenditure to be so incurred.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Insert as a new clause:
Provision as to large schemes of catchment boards.
.—(1) Where the estimated expenditure which will be incurred by a catchment board in respect of any scheme for the improvement of any existing works or the construct ion of any new works exceed fifty thousand pounds, or where the execution of any such scheme might involve in any year an addition to the rates (other than drainage rates) on that part of any county or county borough which is within the catchment area of more than twopence in the pound, the board shall not proceed with the execution of the scheme unless and until it has been approved by the Minister, either with or without modifications, and the Minister, in deciding whether or not to approve any such scheme, shall take into account the amount of any grant which he may think proper to make under this Act towards the expenditure to be incurred by the catchment board in respect of the scheme and the amount of the contributions which the internal drainage board may reasonably be required to make towards that expenditure.
(2) If application is made to the Minister under this section for the approval of a scheme, the Minister shall require the board to publish, in one or more newspapers circulating in the catchment area and otherwise as fie may direct, and to send to the council of every county and every county borough concerned, a notice containing such particulars with respect to the application and otherwise as he may direct and specifying the time (not being less than one month) within which and the manner in which objections may be made to the carrying out of the scheme, and, if any such objections are duly made, the Minister, before approving the scheme, shall cause a local public inquiry to be held.")
LORD BAYFORD LORD BAYFORD moved to disagree with the proposal of the Commons to insert this new clause. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have an Amendment to disagree with the Commons proposal to insert on page 45 a new clause "Provision as to large schemes of catchment boards." I have already explained it, and I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment."—(Lord Bayford.)
LORD STRACHIE LORD STRACHIE had given Notice to move that the new clause be disagreed to, and the following new clause inserted in lieu thereof:

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".A catchment board shall, before incurring any expenses under this Act, prepare, either annually or otherwise as they may think fit, and submit to the council of every county and county borough the whole or any part of the area of which is within the catchment area, an estimate of such expenses, and any such council, if aggrieved by the estimate either on the ground that it is excessive or that the works to which it relates are unnecessary, may, within six weeks after the date on which the estimate has been received by the council, appeal to the Minister against the estimate, and the Minister may, after considering any objections made to him make such an order in the matter as he thinks just and his decision shall be final."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Paper. The object of the Amendment is to provide that the estimates of any proposed expenditure by a catchment board should be submitted to the county councils and county boroughs concerned, and to give them leave, if they object, to appeal to the Minister within six weeks after the date on which such estimate has been received by the council in question. Of course the decision of the Minister would be final in the matter, and it is only if there is real ground for objection that he should be appealed to. May I point out, on behalf of the County Councils Association, for whom I am speaking, that an internal drainage board has exactly the same privilege as I am asking for the county councils of submitting to the Minister within six weeks any objection it may have to proposed expenditure which has been submitted to it by a catchment board. It seems to me only fair, therefore, that county councils should be treated in exactly the same way as the internal drainage board and only reasonable that they should have knowledge of what the expenditure is going to be. Those of your Lordships who are members of county councils know very well that in making up the budget for the year it is very necessary that a council should be able to look forward and see exactly what expenditure is required in the future, in order to determine whether the rates may he increased or decreased as the case may be. The catchment boards are thoroughly protected in this matter because, as I say, the Minister will have the last word. I may be told that the limitation of the rate to twopence, which has already been
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put into the Bill, must be taken into consideration here. But I cannot see what that has to do with it at all.
I would point out that this provision was pressed very strongly on the Government the other day in another place by a Labour Member, an ex-Cabinet Minister, Colonel Wedgwood, who said that he could not see why there should not be an opportunity for consultation regarding these matters between catchment boards and county councils. He regarded this provision as very desirable. For the life of me I cannot see why such a reasonable proposal on the part of the County Councils Association should be rejected by the noble Earl, though after my explanation he may take a more favourable view. It is not at all a Party question because, as I have said already, an ex-member of the Labour Cabinet said in another place that he saw no objection to it. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 53 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Strachie.)
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I am afraid the Government cannot agree with this Amendment. As I think I said in regard to the noble Lord, Lord Bayford's Amendment, we have already gone as far as we can in the direction of protecting the county councils. We have gone a very long way, and I am afraid we cannot go any further.
LORD STRACHIE: What is the objection to submitting these estimates to county councils? There cannot be any great objection.
On Question, Amendment proposed in lieu of the Commons Amendment negatived.
On Question, Motion agreed to and Commons Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 54, page 51, line 3, leave out from ("made") to ("by") in line 4.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 55, page 51, line 23, after ("through") insert ("over")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 57, page 52, line 38, at end insert ("and to any drainage authority having jurisdiction in any district or area within which all or any of the proposed works are to be executed")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships agree with this drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 57 insert the following clause:
Protection for ancient monuments.
(". Nothing in this Act shall be taken to authorise any person to execute any works or do anything in contravention of the provisions of the Ancient Monuments (Consolidation and Amendment) Act, 1913.")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Leave out Clause 58 and insert as a new clause:
Protection of waterworks.
(".—(1) Nothing in this Act or any order made thereunder shall authorise any person, except with the consent of the undertakers, to do any work which, whether directly or indirectly, interferes or will interfere with, or with the use of the works of or any property which is vested in or is under the control of the persons carrying on any undertaking to which this section applies, in their capacity as such, in such manner as to affect injuriously the said works or property or the carrying on of the undertaking.
The undertakings to which this section applies are the following:—

(a) Public utility undertakings carried on by local authorities under any Act or under any order having the force of an Act;

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(b) Undertakings for the supply of water to any place;

(c) The undertakings of authorised undertakers within the meanings of the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1928;

(d) The undertakings of navigation, harbour, or conservancy authorities.

(2) Nothing in this Act shall authorise any person except with the consent of the railway company to interfere with any railway bridge or any other work connected with the railway or the structure, use or maintenance thereof or the traffic thereon.
(3) If any question arises under this section whether anything done or proposed to be done interferes or will interfere as aforesaid, that question shall be referred to a single arbitrator to be agreed between the parties or failing such agreement to be appointed by the President of the Institution of Civil Engineers on the application of either party to the difference after notice thereof to the other.
(4) Without prejudice to the provisions of this Act with respect to the transfer to drainage boards of the powers and duties of navigation authorities and with respect to the power of the Minister to vary navigation rights, nothing in this Act or any order made thereunder shall be taken to prejudice the exercise of any statutory power, authority or jurisdiction from time to time vested in or exercisable by the persons carrying on any undertaking to which this section applies.")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR moved that the new clause proposed by the Commons instead of Clause 58 be agreed to with the following Amendment, namely, in subsection (3) to leave out the words "to the difference after notice thereof to the other." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships accept this Amendment to the Commons Amendment that I have placed on the Paper, which is purely drafting.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
In subsection (3) leave out the words ("the difference after notice thereof to the other").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 60, page 54, line 28, leave out ("authority") and insert ("board")
Clause 60, page 54, line 35, leave out ("sewers") and insert ("watercourses")
Clause 60, page 54, line 40, leave out ("authority and any other authority") and insert ("board and any such authority as aforesaid")
Clause 60, page 54, line 41, leave out ("sewers") and insert ("watercourses")
Clause 60, page 54, line 42, leave out ("such other") and insert ("the")
Clause 60, page 54, line 43, leave out the first ("sewers") and insert ("watercourses"); leave out the second ("sewers") and insert ("watercourses")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move that the House cloth agree to them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 60, page 55, line 4, leave out ("after notice thereof to the other")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 62, page 55, line 37, at the beginning insert ("Sub-paragraphs (iv), (v) and (vi) of paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of Section four")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 64, page 56, line 23, after ("officer") insert:
("(a) who at any time within five years after the commencement of this Act relinquishes office by reason of his having been required to perform duties which are not analogous to or which are art unreasonable addition to those which he was required to perform immediately before the commencement of this Act; or
(b)")
Clause 64, page 56, line 25, leave out ("two") and insert ("five")
Clause 64, page 56, line 30, leave out subsections (4) to (7) and insert
("(4) The provisions contained ill the Eighth Schedule to the Local Government Act, 1929, shall apply to the determination and payment of compensation under this section to officers as they apply to the determination and payment of compensation
1182
under that Act to officers, subject to the following modifications:—

(i) references to the drainage board shall be substituted for references to the Council;

(ii) references to this Act shall be substituted for references to that Act; and

(iii) references to the commencement of this Act shall be substituted for references to the appointed day.")

After Clause 69 insert as a new clause:
Costs of the Minister of Health under Part VII.
(". Where the Minister of Health incurs expenses—

(a) in connection with the making or confirmation of a provisional order made by him by virtue of this Part of this Act for constituting a body having any of the powers of a sanitary authority under the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act, 1876; Or

(b) in or in connection with the exercise of the powers conferred on him by this Part of this Act with respect to alteration of boundaries where watercourses forming boundary lines are altered;

he may make such orders as he thinks fit with respect to the parties by whom or the rates out of which those expenses or any part thereof are to be borne, and any sum payable to the Minister of Health by virtue of any such order may be recovered as a debt due to the Crown:
Provided that an order shall not be made under this section with respect to expenses incurred in connection with the making or confirmation of a provisional order unless and until the order is confirmed by Parliament.")
EARL DE LA WARR: These are all drafting Amendments, my Lords. I beg to move that they be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 73, page 61, line 4, leave out ("hereinafter provided") and insert ("otherwise expressly provided in this Act")
Clause 73, page 61, line 11, leave out ("either")
Clause 73, page 61, line 11, after ("Lands") insert ("the Commissioners of Works")
Clause 73, page 61, line 13, leave out ("or of") and insert ("of Crown Lands, the Commissioners of Works or")
EARL DE LA WARR: These also are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 73, page 61, line 32, leave out from ("authorise") to ("or") in line 6, page 62, and insert ("any person to do any work on, over, or under, or to use for any purpose any tidal lands or any lands belonging to His Majesty in right of the Crown, the Duchy of Lancaster, the Duchy of Cornwall, or any Government Department, except—

(i) with the consent of the owner of the land; and

(ii) in the case of tidal lands, with the consent also of the Board of Trade; and

(iii) in any case otherwise than in accordance with the approved plans and sections and subject to the prescribed restrictions and conditions;

so, however, that nothing in this paragraph shall apply to work clone in maintaining existing works on tidal lands, or on land not in the occupation of His Majesty, the Duke of Cornwall, or a Government Department.")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR moved that this Amendment be agreed to with the following Amendments:—
line 5, after ("Crown") insert ("or of")
line 6, after ("Lancaster") insert ("to")
line 6, after ("or") insert ("to").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, these are purely drafting Amendments, and beg to move them.
Amendments to the Commons Amendment moved—
line 5, after ("Crown") insert ("or of")
line 6, after ("Lancaster") insert ("to")
line 6, after ("or") insert ("to").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendments to the Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 73, page 62, line 13, leave out from ("Trade") to ("as") in line 15, and insert ("or the owner of the lands")
Clause 73, page 62, line 16, leave out ("works") and insert ("work")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships agree with these drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 73, page 62, insert the following new clause:
Provision as to London.
("This Act shall not apply to the administrative county of London except to such portion thereof as is for the time being included in the Lee catchment area and nothing in this Act, or any order made thereunder shall affect any property of, or prejudice the exercise of any statutory power, authority, or jurisdiction for the time being vested in, or exerciseable by, the London County Council.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that your Lordships do accept this new clause.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 74, page 62, line 36, leave out ("thirty") and insert ("thirty-one")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 74, page 64, line 15, leave out from ("scale") to ("Provided") in line 16 and insert ("from time to time applicable to persons in the permanent Civil Service of the State")
Clause 74, page 64, line 26, leave out ("Section thirty-three of")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 75, page 64, line 39, after ("area") insert ("in this section referred to as the catchment board'")
Clause 75, page 64, line 40, at end insert ("(in this section referred to as the Conservancy Board') to

1185
gether with six additional members, one to be appointed by the Minister, one by the London County Council, and two each by the council of the county of Essex and the council of the county of Middlesex")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are also drafting Amendments which I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 75, page 64, line 42, after ("areas") insert ("(except paragraphs 7, 8, and 10 of Part II of the First Schedule to this Act)").
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that we agree to this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 75, page 65, line 1, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert:
("(2) The catchment board shall be a body corporate under the name of the Lee Conservancy catchment board.
(3) An additional member of the catchment board appointed by a county council in pursuance of this section need not be a member of that council.
(4) Section four (Appointed members) and Section fifteen (Persons disqualified from being conservators) of the Lee Conservancy Act, 1900, and Section eleven (Casual vacancies amongst appointed members) of the Lee Conservancy Act, 1921, shall apply to the additional members of the catchment board to be appointed in pursuance of this section:
Provided that the first members so appointed shall be appointed as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, and shall, subject as in the said Section four provided, continue to hold office until the first Friday in April in the year nineteen hundred and thirty-four.
(5) The moneys received by the catchment board under this Act shall be charged with the payment of a proportionate part of the necessary and proper establishment expenses of the conservancy board and of a proportionate part of the cost (including any interest and payments to sinking funds or other sums required to be provided in respect to the repayment of borrowed moneys) of any works carried out by that board and the execution and performance of any of their powers and duties which are
1186
applicable to or enure for the benefit of not only the purposes of the Lee Conservancy Acts, 1870 to 1921, but also the purposes of this Act.
(6) For the purposes of the provisions of this Act relating to compensation to existing officers the conservancy board shall be deemed to have been a drainage board immediately before the commencement of this Act.
(7) Every officer or servant of the conservancy board or of the catchment board not entitled to compensation under this Act, and not otherwise legally entitled to any pension or superannuation allowance, who becomes incapable of discharging the duties of his office with efficiency by reason of permanent infirmity of mind or body, or who has attained the age of sixty years, or who having been in the service of the conservancy board for a period of not less than five years prior to the commencement of this Act, is dismissed on any ground other than misconduct, shall upon his resigning or otherwise ceasing to hold office, he entitled to a superannuation allowance upon the terms and conditions, and according to the scale from time to time applicable to persons in the permanent Civil Service of the State:
Provided that this provision shall not apply to any officer or servant who having regard to the practice of the Conservators with regard to pensioning their officers and servants had no reasonable expectation of receiving a pension or superannuation allowance on retirement and any question as to whether an officer or servant had such reasonable expectation shall be determined by the Minister").
Clause 76, page 65, line 18, after ("channel") insert ("or sea front")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I move that we agree with the Commons in these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 76, page 65, line 25, after ("Drainage '") insert ("(except when used in relation to any enactment)")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I have a drafting Amendment to move.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Leave out ("(except when used in relation to any enactment)") and insert ("in the phrase any enactments relating to the drainage of land'").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 76, page 68, line 25, after ("water") insert ("irrigation, warping, and the supply of water")
Clause 76, page 68, line 35, after ("area") insert ("or in the case of a drainage district situate partly within and partly without a catchment area, so much thereof as is situate within the catchment area")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I move that we agree with these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments. — (Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 76, page 65, line 37, leave out ("an internal") and insert ("a")
Clause 76, page 65, line 37, at end insert ("situate wholly or partly within a catchment area")
EARL DE LA WARR EARL DE LA WARR moved to disagree with both these Amendments. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is drafting.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 76, page 66, insert the following new clause:
Effect of Act on local Acts.
(".— (1) The powers conferred by Part V of this Act on any drainage board shall be deemed to be conferred in addition to and not in substitution for any like powers conferred by any local Act on that board.
(2) Where the boundaries of a drainage district or drainage area are altered under this Act, all powers exerciseable under any local Act by the drainage board of the district or area with respect to land included therein shall, except so far as the scheme or order effecting the alteration otherwise provides, be exerciseable with respect to land added to the district or area by the scheme or order.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that we agree with this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 77, page 66, line 19, leave out ("Eighth") and insert ("Seventh")
Clause 77, page 66, line 22, after ("that") insert:

("(a) notwithstanding anything in this repeal where any application has been made for, or any proceedings have been taken towards the making of, an order under any Act repealed by this Act, the said application may be considered, and the said proceedings may be completed and an order may be made in like manner and with like effect as if this Act had not passed;

(b) subject to the provisions of the preceding paragraph")

EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I move that we agree with these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 78, page 67, line 25, leave out subsections (3) and (4).
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I move that we agree with this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
First Schedule, page 68, line 8, column 2, after ("Mersey") insert ("(above Irlam Weir) and Irwell (above Hunt's Bank)")
First Schedule, page 68, line 9, column 2, after ("Nene") insert ("North Norfolk rivers")
First Schedule, page 68, line 10, column 1, after ("Aucholme") insert ("and Winter-ton Beck")
First Schedule, page 68, line 10, column 2, after ("Pevensey") insert ("and Bulverhythe Stream")
First Schedule, page 68, line 14, column 1, after ("Avon") insert ("Bristol")
First Schedule, page 68, line 16, column 2, leave out ("Marsh Main Drain") and insert ("and Denge Marsh Main Drains")
First Schedule, page 68, line 17, column 2, after ("Rother") insert ("and Jury's Gut")
First Schedule, page 68, line 29, column 2, after ("Witham") insert ("and Steeping River")
First Schedule, Page 69, leave out lines 15 to 19.
First Schedule, Page 70, line 20, at end insert
("10. A minute of the proceedings of a meeting of the board or of a committee of the hoard, purporting to be signed at that or the next ensuing meeting by a person describing himself as, or appearing to be, the chairman of the meeting the proceedings of which the minute relates shall be evidence of the proceedings and shall be received in evidence without further proof, and until the contrary is proved every meeting in respect of the proceedings of which a minute has been so signed shall be deemed to have been duly convened and held and all the proceedings had at the meeting to have been duly had, and where the proceedings are the proceedings of a committee the committee shall be deemed to have been duly constituted and to have had power to deal with the matters referred to in the minute.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these Amendments are drafting. I move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS,
Second Schedule, page 70, line 40, leave out ("or")
Second Schedule, page 70, line 40, after ("authority") insert ("harbour authority or conservancy authority")
Second Schedule, page 71, line 5, leave out paragraph 3.
Second Schedule, page 71, line 45, at end insert:
("PART III.
PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE VALIDITY OF ORDERS NOT CONFIRMED BY PARLIAMENT.
1. So soon as may be after an order has effect the Minister shall publish in the London Gazette, and in such other manner as he thinks best adapted for informing persons affected, a notice stating that the order has come into force, and naming a place where a copy thereof may be seen at all reasonable hours.
2. If any person aggrieved by an order desires to question its validity on the ground that it is not within the powers of this Act or that any requirement of this Act has not been complied with he may, within six weeks after the publication of the notice mentioned in paragraph I hereof, make an application for the purpose to the High Court, and, if any such application is duly made, the Court, if satisfied that the order is not within the powers of this Act or that the interests of the applicant have been substantially prejudiced by any requirements
1190
of this Act not having been complied with, may quash the order either generally or in so far as it affects the applicant.
3. Subject to the provisions of the last preceding paragraph an order shall not at any time be questioned by prohibition or certiorari or in any legal proceedings whatsoever.
4. Except by leave of the Court of Appeal no appeal shall lie to the Horse of Lords from a decision of the Court of Appeal in proceedings under this section.")
Third Schedule, page 72, line 7, leave out from ("who") to end of line 10, and insert ("at the date of the election own or occupy land on which a drainage rate has been levied in the year immediately preceding:
"Provided that a person shall not be entitled to be an elector by reason of his occupation of any land if at the date of the election any amount demanded in respect of any drainage rate levied on that land has remained unpaid for more than a month, and a person shall not be entitled to be an elector by reason of his ownership of any land if at the date of the election any amount demanded in respect of any owner's drainage rate levied on that land has remained unpaid for more than one month")
line 13, leave out ("scales") and insert ("scale")
leave out lines 14 to 16.
line 29, leave out from beginning to end of line 10 on page 73.
Page 73, line 16, leave out ("absolutely entitled as owner to") and insert ("the owner of")
Page 73, line 23, leave out ("a hereditament") and insert ("land")
Page 73, line 28, leave out paragraph (d), and insert:
("(d) a person nominated as a candidate for election by the owner (whether the owner is an individual or a body of persons) of land which is situate in the electoral district in question, and is either of not less than ten acres in extent or of the annual value of thirty pounds or upwards.")
Page 73, line 32, leave out from ("no") to end of paragraph and insert ("person shall be deemed to be qualified as aforesaid as being an occupier of any land if at the date of the election any amount demanded in respect of any drainage rate levied on that land has remained unpaid for more than one month, and no person shall be deemed to be qualified as aforesaid as being the owner, or a person nominated by the owner, of any land if at the date of the election any amount demanded in respect of any owner's drainage rate levied in respect of that land has remained unpaid for more than one month.")
Page 75, line 5, at end insert:
("11. A minute of the proceedings of a meeting of the board or of a committee of

1191
the board, purporting to be signed at that or the next ensuing meeting by a person describing himself as, or appearing to be, the chairman of the meeting to the proceedings of which the minute relates, shall be evidence of the proceedings and shall be received in evidence without further proof and until the contrary is proved every meeting in respect of the proceedings of which a minute has been so signed shall be deemed to have been duly convened and held and all the proceedings had at the meeting to have been duly had, and where the proceedings are the proceedings of a committee the committee shall be deemed to have been duly constituted and to have had power to deal with the matters referred to in the minute.")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 11, leave out ("city") and insert ("county borough")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 12, after the second ("the") insert ("county")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 14, leave out ("Kingston-upon-Thames")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 18, column 1, after ("Walton") insert ("and")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 18, column 1, leave out ("East and West")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 18, column 2, insert ("Two")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 19, column 1, at beginning insert ("By the council of the borough of Kingston-upon-Thames and the councils of the urban districts of East and West")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 20, column 2, leave out ("three") and insert ("two")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 21, leave out ("three")
Sixth Schedule, page 81, line 21, leave out from ("by") to end of line 22 and insert ("several councils")
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I move that we agree with these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Seventh Schedule, page 82, leave out the Seventh Schedule.
Eighth Schedule, page 83, leave out lines 34 to 39.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I beg to move that we agree with these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
A Committee appointed to prepare Reasons to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to certain of the Commons Amendments: The Committee to meet forthwith.
Report from the Committee of the Reasons to be offered to the Commons, read and agreed to; and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons returning the Bill with the Reasons.

RESERVOIRS (SAFETY PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD THOMSON): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments to this Bill be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Thomson).
EARL PEEL: My Lords, I wish to say a word on this. I had not heard until just now that the Reservoirs (Safety Provisions) Bill was coming up, and I should like to ask first, where are these Amendments which the noble Lord has moved should now be considered? There is no Paper or document dealing with them.
LORD THOMSON: If the noble Earl will hear me I will explain.
EARL PEEL: The only copy I have seen is one containing a number of unintelligible manuscript Amendments inscribed in the Bill.
LORD THOMSON: If the noble Earl will allow me to explain I shall be delighted to do so. I feel the House has not been too well treated in this matter, but as the Bill only got through the Report stage at 10.30 last night in another place it was rather difficult to get the printing done. The insertions in the Bill which the noble Earl now has in his hand were prepared by the Department, and I had a copy especially done for the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition as I thought it would help him. I am sorry it is

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useless, but it is the best we could do, and it is exactly the same as I have myself.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition is not here. I only had a word with him just now outside, and he said it is really an outrage asking your Lordships to take this Bill now with the Amendments. I have only just been handed this document, which I have not had an opportunity of reading, without any sort of notice, and I must really ask the noble Lord to postpone the consideration of these Amendments till tomorrow in order to have an opportunity, even for a quarter of an hour, to consider them.
LORD THOMSON: My Lords, I have no objection to the consideration being postponed till to-morrow, but in justice to myself I think the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, will admit that I gave that amended copy of the Bill to him at least one hour ago.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: The noble Lord did give me a copy, and I gave it to the noble Marquess, and now he has given it to the noble Earl.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, at the moment I am both vicariously and personally indignant at the treatment which is meted out to me.
LORD THOMSON: My Lords, in the circumstances I am pleased to accept the noble Earl's request, but my noble Leader thinks we shall have to meet a little earlier if consideration is put off until to-morrow. I think if we take them now we can get through in five minutes. I think I can explain to your Lordships' satisfaction that there is not a single one of the Amendments but goes to meet the views expressed by your Lordships during our debates. They would not suit my own Party half so much as the Party of noble Lords opposite. However, if it is the desire to postpone consideration till to-morrow, I agree.
EARL PEEL: My Lords, I have no doubt the noble Lord will explain them most expeditiously in five minutes, but it does not follow that I shall be able to understand the explanation. I should like to have an opportunity of considering them; but if it is only a question of five minutes
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I do not think that getting up five minutes earlier to-morrow will be the smallest strain upon the Government.
Loan PARMOOR: My Lords, I understand the view of the noble Earl opposite. We shall have one or two matters to consider to-morrow, and I think we should meet at eleven o'clock.
Consideration of the Commons Amendments put off till to-morrow.

HOUSING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Reason for disagreeing with an Amendment of your Lordships be now considered. Perhaps I can explain that we have completed the English Housing Bill, and its terms and those of the Scottish Housing Bill are so very much alike that the Government thought perhaps we might be able to give consideration to this Bill to-night. The typewritten Amendments have been circulated to those noble Lords who have shown a special interest in this Bill.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments to the Lords Amendment and the Commons Reason for disagreeing to one of the Lords Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT.
Page 11, line 20, at end insert:
("Provided further that in any case where it is proved that building which is dangerous or injurious to health by reason only of the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets on any land in a clearance area was acquired by the owner before the nineteenth day of August, nineteen hundred and nineteen, or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business, the arbitrator shall make to the owner an allowance for the value of the building having regard to the provisions of Part II of the Third Schedule to this Act.")
The Commons disagree to the above Amendment for the following Reason:
Because by increasing the amount of compensation payable by local authorities, it would increase the burden of local rates; and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that the above Reason may be deemed sufficient.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved that the House doth not insist upon its Amendment, and proposes to amend it by leaving out the words "or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business." The noble Viscount said: The object of this and other Amendments

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I have to submit is to make the Scottish Bill still more like the English Bill. I beg to move that the House doth not insist upon the Amendment in page 11, line 20, and proposes to amend it by leaving out the words "or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business." I intimated my intention to move this, and I think it will save time if I simply make a formal Motion.
Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the Amendment to page 11, line 20, and proposes to amend it by leaving out the words ("or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business").—(Viscount Novar.)
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, this is the usual compensation clause about which there has been so much discussion that I do not intend to delay your Lordships by dealing with it at length. I cannot understand how it can be desired to alter the present law so as to make it more expensive to clear the slums. But the position has been discussed, and I can only say that the Government resist the Motion of the noble Viscount.
On Question, new Amendment disagreed to and Motion not to insist on the proviso agreed to.

LORDS AMENDMENT.
Page 37, line 14, leave out from ("includes") to ("and") in line 20 and insert ("such deficiency in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls as is likely to injure or endanger the health of the occupants of the house, except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to the default or neglect of the said occupants").
The Commons disagree to the above Amendment bat hare amended the words so restored to the Bill by leaving out from the word ("the") in line 17 to the word ("and") in line 20, and inserting the words ("default or neglect of the occupants of the house").
VISCOUNT NOVAR: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth disagree with the Commons Amendment to page 37, line 14, and proposes the following Amendment in lieu thereof: line 14, leave out from "includes" to "and" in line 20 and insert "such deficiency arising from default on the part of the landlord in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls as is injurious or dangerous to the health of the inhabitants." That Motion, again, is in
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tended to bring the Scottish Bill into line with the English Bill according to the Amendment proposed by my noble friend the Earl of Onslow.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons Amendment to page 37, line 14, and proposes the following Amendment in lieu thereof: Line 14, leave out from ("includes") to ("and") in line 20, and insert ("such deficiency arising from default on the part of the landlord in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls as is injurious or dangerous to the health of the inhabitants.")—(Viscount Novar.)
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, again the Government must support the attitude taken up in another place in this matter. The point has been discussed so often that I will not detain the House. We do want to allow this question of internal painting and decorating to be taken into account as one element only in considering whether a house is unfit for human habitation. It is not a question of a landlord being compelled to redecorate a house. It is merely that when we look at a house and see the walls damaged and windows broken, we want to be able also to look at the internal painting and decorating and see whether that is one element in making the house unfit for human habitation. I must maintain support of the position taken up by the House of Commons in this matter and resist the Motion of the noble Viscount.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
A Committee appointed to prepare a Reason to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to the Commons Amendment to one of the Lords Amendments: The Committee to meet forthwith.
Report from the Committee read, and agreed to; and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to return the said Bill with the Reason.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, before the House adjourns I should like to say that we shall have to meet to-morrow morning at eleven o'clock in order to make sure of being able to get through the necessary business.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before seven o'clock.