HL Deb 30 July 1930 vol 78 cc1090-9

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Procedure for conferring on local authorities and statutory undertakers power to execute works.

1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, any powers required by a local authority or by statutory undertakers for the purpose of enabling them to execute works which will contribute to the relief of unemployment may be conferred on them by an order made in accordance with the provisions of this section, and any such order may contain any provisions which might have been contained in a local Act.

(6) Where any such inquiry is directed to be held, the inquiry shall be held at such place as may be determined by the appropriate Minister by a tribunal consisting of one or more persons nominated by him (not being persons having any interest in the subject matter of the inquiry), and the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, shall apply to the tribunal as if the tribunal had been established and that Act had been applied thereto in manner provided by that Act; and the tribunal shall, as soon as may be after holding the inquiry, make a report to the Minister recommending whether the order should be proceeded with and, if proceeded with, what modifications, if any, should, in the opinion of the tribunal, be made in the draft order.

The costs incurred by any tribunal in relation to any such inquiry with respect to a draft order (including the remuneration of any member of the tribunal) shall, save in so far as the whole or any part thereof may be ordered by the Minister to be paid by any person whose objection he adjudges, after considering the report, to have been frivolous, be paid by the local authority or statutory undertakers by whom the draft order was submitted to the Minister, and the Minister may certify the amount of the costs so payable by any person, authority or undertakers, and any sum so certified shall be a debt to the Crown from that person, authority or undertakers, as the case may be.

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE) moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "an order made" and to insert "a scheme made, and confirmed by Parliament." The noble Lord said: On this first Amendment I perhaps might explain that it is felt there is a risk to the procedure under the Bill as it stands of its being confused with the procedure of Provisional Orders under the Public Health Act, 1875, and other Public General Acts. It is therefore proposed by this Amendment and later Amendments that a draft scheme should be submitted to the appropriate Minister instead of a draft order, and that the Confirmation Bill should be one to confirm a scheme instead of an order. A great number of Amendments are consequential on this change.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 10, leave out ("an order made") and insert the said words.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

There are now a number of Amendments which are consequential or drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 1, line 12, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 1, line 16, leave out ("an order") and insert ("a scheme")

Page 2, line 2, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 2, line 10, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 2, line 15, leave out ("an order") and insert ("a scheme")

Page 2, line 18, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 2, line 26, leave out from ("section") to the end of the subsection and insert ("make the scheme and submit it for confirmation by Parliament")

Page 2, line 29, leave out ("An order") and insert ("A scheme")

Page 2, line 33, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 2, line 36, leave out ("an order") and insert ("a scheme")

Page 2, line 37, leave out ("laying the draft order before Parliament") and insert ("making the scheme")

Page 2, line 40, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 3, line 9, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 3, line 13, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 3, line 25, leave out from ("he") to ("his") in line 26, and insert ("submits the scheme for confirmation by Parliament, also lay before Parliament")

Page 3, line 30, leave out ("laying before Parliament any draft order") and insert ("making any scheme")

Page 3, line 32, leave out ("thereto") and insert ("to the draft thereof")

Page 3, line 33, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 3, line 34, leave out ("lay the draft order before Parliament") and insert ("make the scheme")

Page 3, line 39, leave out ("appropriate").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM moved, in subsection (6), to leave out "one or more persons nominated by him," anti to insert "three persons, one of whom shall be a member of the House of Lords nominated by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords, and one a member of the House of Commons nominated by the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons, and one a person nominated by die Minister."

The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a little more than a drafting Amendment. It does makes a material difference. As your Lordships know, this Bill is designed to accelerate the procedure for starting certain works which it is thought will assist unemployment, and it provides that the Minister of Health may direct an inquiry, where there is an objection, and that that inquiry shall, in effect, be substituted for the Parliamentary procedure with which we are familiar. The proposal which I make is that, instead of the tribunal being a, tribunal consisting of such persons as the Minister chooses to appoint, there shall be some provision made which will ensure that the two Houses of Parliament shall have some voice in the selection of the tribunal—that it shall consist, in other words, of three person's, one off whom shall be nominated by the Chairman of Committees of your Lordships' House, one by the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons, and the third by the Minister.

I see two advantages in that proposal, first of all, that it ensures that persons representing this House and representing the other House shall take part in the inquiry, and therefore that the tribunal shall be one which must command public confidence; and secondly, that if at a later stage any question be raised in either House with regard to the inquiry or its conduct or the report which has been made, there shall be available to Parliament somebody who has taken part in the hearing of the inquiry, who will be able to inform your Lordships or the other place as to what has happened, and as to the reasons for the report which has been made. I think the alteration which I suggest is one which is in the public interest, and it will not involve any delay because I have a consequential Amendment later on to provide for the unlikely case of the two nominating Persons not being available at any moment; and the result will be that we shall get a tribunal which will not only command public confidence but which, we may be quite sure, will deserve public confidence.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 10, leave out from ("of") to end of line and insert the said new words.—(Viscount Hailsham.)

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

I hope your Lordships will allow me to say that this Amendment appeals to me. It seems to me a great improvement on the Bill. I do not wish to elaborate my reasons, because they are the same as those which have been expressed by the noble and learned Viscount. It does seem to me very important that these inquiries, though they cannot take place in a Parliamentary atmosphere, should at any rate take place in harmony with the customs of Parliamentary inquiries; and that can, of course, be secured by a member of your Lordships' House and a member of the House of Commons being present and taking part in them, and, of course, they will be independent people. If your Lordships were good enough to ask me I o undertake this duty, I should not, of course, send a Lancashire Peer down to Lancashire to take part in a Lancashire inquiry.

LORD PONSONBY of SHULBREDE

I quite recognise the importance of this Amendment, backed as it is by such authorities as the noble and learned Viscount and the Lord Chairman of Committees. But I think its merits are really rather superficial, and appear more in the wording than in the significance of the Amendment. The idea that Parliamentary control is introduced at this stage by the mere presence of a member of your Lordships' House and a member of the House of Commons appears to me to be entirely illusory. I am afraid such a Committee, apart from the inconvenience of setting it up in a Recess, apart from the inconvenience of finding sufficient members of the two Houses to serve on numberless inquiries, which might have to be held up and down the country, and the difficulty of getting them in the Recess, would in itself be extremely hampering to the Minister. I think, as the Bill stands, he has the advice of experts—the Parliamentary control comes in at a later stage—so that the Minister is by no means unfettered, but such a Committee as this, although it is recommended by such leading authorities, is, I am afraid, a suggestion which the Government cannot adopt.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

I confess to feeling a little disappointment at the answer which the noble Lord has given me. I cannot feel that the arguments which he has used are very conclusive, but I am very anxious that this Bill which, as the Government profess, is going to be a valuable assistance to enable them to grapple with unemployment, shall pass in the form which they think most useful for the purpose, and, although I confess that my reason is not convinced by the arguments which the noble Lord has put forward, I should not be disposed, unless the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman, who spoke in support of the Amendment, thinks otherwise, to press it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM moved, in subsection (6) before "the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921," to insert "Section one of." The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a separate point and, I think, an important one. I gather that the Government are less unfavourable to this Amendment. Under the Bill as drafted it is provided that the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act, 1921, shall apply to the tribunal. That is an Act which is intended to apply all sorts of tribunals—

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I accept this Amendment and the consequential Amendment which follows it.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

Then I will merely move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 42, after ("and") insert ("Section one of").—(Viscount Hailsham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

The three Amendments that stand next in my name are consequential.

Amendments moved— Page 4, line 4, leave out ("order should be proceeded with and if proceeded with") and insert ("scheme should be made and if made") Page 4, line 6, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme") Page 4, line 8, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM had given Notice to move, in subsection (6), to leave out "he" ["whose objection he adjudges"], and to insert "the tribunal has reported and the Minister." The noble and learned Viscount said: I understand that the Government are willing to accept this Amendment. The point is that, instead of the Minister deciding whether the objection is frivolous, it is to be decided by the tribunal. I should like to move the Amendment in a slightly different form.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 12, leave out ("he adjudges, after considering the report") and insert ("is reported by the tribunal").—(Viscount Hailsham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

My next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 14, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM had given Notice to move, after subsection (2), to insert the Hollowing new subsection: () The public shall be entitled to be present at any hearing by a tribunal of an inquiry under this section and any person appearing to the tribunal to be interested may appear in person or by counsel or solicitor. The noble and learned Viscount said: This Amendment is consequential on the Amendment which has been accepted, but here again I should like, with your Lordships' permission, to move it in a slightly different form.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 19, at end insert the following new subsection: () The public shall be entitled to be present at any hearing by a tribunal of an inquiry under this section and any person appearing to the tribunal to be interested may appear in person or by counsel, solicitor, or Parliamentary agent."—(Viscount Hailsham.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

The rest of my Amendments to this clause are consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 21, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 4, line 22, leave out from ("report") to ("also") in line 24, and insert ("and making in the draft scheme such modifications, if any, as appear 1.o him to be necessary make the scheme in the terms of the draft and shall, if he submits the scheme for confirmation by Parliament,")

Page 4, line 26, leave out from the beginning to ("he") in line 27, and insert: ("(8) A scheme under this section shall be of no effect unless confirmed by Parliament, and if the Minister submits a scheme for such confirmation,")

Page 4, line 29, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 4, line 37, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 4, line 38, leave out ("order laid before") and insert ("scheme submitted to")

Page 4, line 40, leave out ("the") and insert ("any")

Page 4, line 40, leave out from ("undertakers") to ("and") in line 41, and insert ("having powers under the original scheme")

Page 4, line 43, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme")

Page 4, line 44, leave out ("order") and insert ("scheme").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 [Provision as to land belonging to local authorities and public undertakings]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I have a number of consequential Amendments to this clause.

Amendments moved—

Page 6, line 17, leave out ("order made") and insert ("scheme or order confirmed")

Page 6, line 19, after ("the") insert ("scheme or")

Page 6, line 22, after ("land") insert ("or of the approaches to any such bridge")

Page 6, line 22, after the second ("such") insert ("scheme or")

Page 6, line 23, at end insert ("scheme or")

Page 6, line 25, after ("any") insert ("scheme or")

Page 6, line 29, leave out ("is") and insert ("and the approaches thereto are").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.

Clause 6 [Interpretation]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

All my Amendments to this clause are consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 7, line 32, at end insert ("scheme or")

Page 7, line 39, after ("the") insert ("scheme")

Page 8, line 16, after ("any") insert ("scheme or")

Page 8, line 21, leave out ("An order") and insert ("A scheme").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 7 [Application to Scotland]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I have a number of drafting Amendments to this clause.

Amendments moved—

Page 8, line 33, after ("servitude") insert ("the expression 'local authority' means a county or town council")

Page 9, line 25, at end insert: ("(e) for any reference to a municipal corporation there shall be substituted a reference to a town council; for any reference to Section one hundred and five of the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, there shall be substituted a reference to Section three hundred and fifteen of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892; and for any reference to Section one hundred and sixteen of the Housing Act, 1925, and for any reference therein to the Minister of Health, there shall be substituted respectively a reference to Section ninety-six of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1925, and a reference therein to the Scottish Board of Health.")

Page 9, line 26, after ("II") insert ("and paragraph 6 of Part. III.")

Page 9, line 35, after ("the") insert ("First").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 [Short title, extent, saving and duration]:

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I have to move a drafting Amendment to this clause.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 8 ("any") insert ("scheme or").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

First Schedule: