Lords Sitting of 25 July 1930

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LONDON NAVAL TREATY BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1ª, and to be printed.
PUBLIC WORKS FACILITIES BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1ª, and to be printed.
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1ª, and to be printed.
CRIMINAL APPEAL (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
EAST LOTHIAN WESTERN DISTRICT WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.
LAND DRAINAGE (OUSE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Reported without amendment, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
KINGSTON-UPON-HULL CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3ª, with the Amendments: Further Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
ROTHERHAM CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3ª, with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
GLASGOW CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3ª, with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
ALDERSHOT DISTRICT ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
  DARLINGTON ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.

    WIGAN ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1930.
    THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY or TRANSPORT (LORD PONSONBY OR SHULBREDE): My Lords, in reference to these three Bills I beg to move the Motion standing on the Paper in my name.
    Moved, That the Special Orders as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shalbrede.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to.

BENEFICES (TRANSFER OF RIGHTS OF PATRONAGE) MEASURE, 1930.
EARL GREY: My Lords, yesterday evening the Benefices (Transfer of Rights of Patronage) Measure, 1930, was brought into your Lordships' House. It will be printed and will be on the Table of your Lordships' House at three o'clock with the Report of the Ecclesiastical Committee. It is a very small Measure designed to do nothing except to secure that there shall be no transfer of rights of patronage without notice.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): Order! Order! We cannot discuss this to-day. If the noble Earl wishes merely to give notice to your Lordships' House that he intends to ask leave to push forward the Measure quickly—
EARL GREY: I was only going to say that as the Measure does nothing except provide for giving the parish notice, I hope your Lordships will not think I am doing anything unreasonable if I ask that it be put on the Paper for next Thursday.

HOUSING (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for receiving the Report of Amendments read.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, in moving that this Report be now received, I should like to say that I think we are agreed on all the main points of the Amendments standing in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, and the noble and learned Earl, Lord Halsbury, and I hope that we are practically in agreement as between the noble Earl Lord Onslow, and myself. As to all the points on which we promised to give consideration we have done so, and I think we have come to a fair understanding.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.
Clause 2:
Clearance orders.
(3)When a clearance order has become operative, the owner or owners of any building to which the order applies shall demolish that building before the expiration of six weeks from the date on which the building is required by the order to be vacated or, if it is not vacated until after that date, before the expiration of six weeks from the date on which it is vacated or, in either case, before the expiration of such longer period as in the circumstances the local authority may deem reasonable; and, if the building is not demolished before the expiration of that period, the local authority shall enter and demolish the building and sell the materials thereof.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "six weeks" and to insert "three months."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to bring the Bill on to a footing with the Scottish Bill. The noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, said the other day that we were to have equal treatment in England, and hinted that we might have superior treatment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 17, leave out ("six weeks") and insert ("three months").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, the period of six weeks has always been found very convenient in the administration of this difficult subject in England and we hope that the noble Viscount

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will not press for three months, which would merely mean delay and expense.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Does the noble and learned Lord think that Scottish workers are slower than English workers?
LORD PARMOOR: In many respects our procedure is different from that in Scotland. There has never been any trouble here, and we want this measure to proceed with as little friction as possible, and as soon as possible.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: This is not a question of procedure, but of time.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE EARL or HALSBURY THE EARL or HALSBURY, who had given Notice of Amendments in subsection (5), said: My Lords, I have had an oportunity of talking to the noble and learned Lord opposite and, with your Lordships' leave, I do not propose to move the Amendments that stand in my name.
LORD PARMOOR: I am much obliged.
Clause 3:
Purchase by local authority of land surrounded by or adjoining clearance area.
3. Where as respects any area declared by them to be a clearance area a local authority determine to purchase any land comprised in the area, they may purchase also any land which is surrounded by the clearance area and the acquisition of which is reasonably necessary for the purpose of securing a cleared area of convenient shape and dimensions, and any adjoining land the acquisition of which is reasonably necessary for the satisfactory development of user of the cleared area.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, after the first "land," to insert "including any building thereon." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, these words appear in the Scottish Bill. I do not know whether the law in Scotland is different from the law in England and makes these words unnecessary. If not, I propose that they should be inserted.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 36, after ("land") insert ("including any building thereon").— (Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD MARLEY): My Lords, these words are included in the Scottish Bill merely on account of the tenement system, and that is the reason for the
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difference. They are included because the same provision is found in Clause 12 of the Scottish Bill, and these words in Clause 3 bring that clause into line with Clause 12. The tenement system includes houses which are fit for habitation. That is why these words are not necessary in the English Bill.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I think the noble Lord has explained the point satisfactorily, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5:
Treatment of clearance area.
(2) Land sold or leased under this section shall be sold or leased at the best price or for the best rent that can reasonably he obtained having regard to any restriction or condition imposed, and any capital money received in respect of any transaction under this section shall be applied, with the sanction of the Minister, either in the repayment of debt or for any other purpose for which capital money may be properly applied.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I beg to move, in subsection (2), to leave out "with the sanction of the Minister."
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 13, leave out from ("applied") to ("either").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I have to make the same answer. We have carefully considered the noble Viscount's Amendments, and I am glad to say that there are one or two on which we can help him, but this is not one.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7 [Local authority may declare unhealthy area to be improvement area]:
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, an Amendment to this clause [to leave out "and also" in subsection (1) and to insert "or"] stands in the name of my noble friend, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, but the hour fixed for the general convenience of the House is entirely inconvenient to my noble friend and, since I agree with the whole of his Amendments, I will move them, with your Lordships' permission, on his behalf. The first Amendment, however, is one that I do not propose to proceed with.
Clause 8:
Treatment of improvement area.
(3) The by-laws to be made in pursuance of this section may include, amongst other provisions, provisions for all or any of the purposes mentioned in the said Section six of the principal Act, and may be made applicable to any house, whether let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one family only.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (3), after "house", to insert "used or intended to be used for occupation by members of the working classes." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, these words appear in the Scottish Bill. I suppose there is some reason for their being there, and so I think they ought to be put in here.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 41, after ("house") insert ("used or intended to be used for occupation by members of the working classes").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: The very limitation which these words would cover is already in Section 6 of the principal Act.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Do I understand that it is already covered?
LORD PARMOOR: Yes.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Then I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 10 [Provisions as to purchase of land]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, after subsection (4), to insert the following new subsection:
"() Notwithstanding that a building is included in a compulsory purchase order the local authority may, with consent of the Minister, agree with the owner of the building that, instead of their purchasing the building, the owner shall demolish the building and use the land for a purpose approved by the authority, but no such agreement shall be entered into unless the authority and the Minister are satisfied that the use to which the land will he put will not prejudice the housing conditions in the clearance or improvement area."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this subsection appears in the equivalent clause of the Scottish Bill, and English properties are surely entitled to similar protection.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 11, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, we have gone very carefully into the matter, and we are satisfied that this Amendment is not necessary.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Will the noble and learned Lord say on what grounds it is necessary in the Scottish Bill?
LORD PARMOOR: On the ground that, taking the legislation as it stand's—after all we are dealing with one of a series of Acts of Parliament—this is not necessary. We do not want to reduplicate anything.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I do not yet understand why it is necessary in the Scottish Bill and not in this Bill.
LORD PARMOOR: Let me say again, I hope once for all, that the fact that a matter is in the Scottish Bill does not necessitate its introduction into this Bill. There are conditions which do not apply in England, and do apply in Scotland.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I do not wish to obstruct, and I withdraw the Amendment, but I am still befogged.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 12:
Assessment of compensation in respect of land purchased compulsorily.
12.—(1) Where land is purchased compulsorily by a local authority under this Part of this Act, the compensation payable in respect thereof shall be assessed in accordance with the provisions of this section.
(2) In the case of lands comprised in a clearance area, the compensation to be paid for the land, including any buildings thereon, shall be assessed in accordance with the provisions of subsections (1) and (2) of Section forty-six of the principal Act subject, as regards the first mentioned of those subsections, to the modifications contained in Part I of the Third Schedule to this Act.
(3) In the case of any other land, the compensation shall be assessed in accordance with the provisions contained in Part II of the Third Schedule to this Act.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW THE EARL OF ONSLOW moved, in subsection (2), after "thereon", to insert "which are specified in the compulsory purchase order as unfit for human habitation or injurious or dangerous to health". The noble Earl said: My Lords, perhaps I may discuss my various

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Amendments on this subject together? Their object is to place the English Bill on the same footing as the Scottish Bill. I shall probably be told that there is a provision in Clause 2 of this Bill which makes this unnecessary, because it requires the local authority to prepare a map and to omit from that map all the premises that are not injurious or dangerous to health, or unfit for human habitation—that is to say, the clearance area will be covered with a number of islands of sound property. I think that is most satisfactory, as far as it goes, but it seems to me that it might be simpler if we were to adopt the Scottish practice and to say that only those houses in a clearance area that are unfit for habitation and so forth, should be included.
I am open to conviction on this subject, and possibly there may be reasons of which I am not aware for adopting a different practice in England. I understand that there are other Amendments to this clause which perhaps go further than I have done. I do not say that I disagree with those Amendments. I think many of them are excellent, but my object in bringing this matter before your Lordships is simply to endeavour to bring the two Bills into correspondence. In the second of the two Amendments that I have put down, I have deleted certain references to Section 46 of the principal Act; and I also have an Amendment to the Third Schedule, which, with the necessary drafting alterations, makes the English Bill conform with the Scottish Bill.
The object of that is to deal with the reduction factor. Your Lordships know that the reduction factor in this matter has two provisions. The first is the application of the reduction factor as in Scotland only to specified premises, and the second is the question of land to be used for open spaces. I do not think I need trouble your Lordships on that second point, because the Leader of the House has an Amendment down, the same as mine, which deals with sites to be used for open spaces, and so we may leave that. All my proposal amounts to really is to adapt the proposals in the Scottish Bill to the English Bill. I have nothing further to say except to remark, as to the propose which I propose, that it is taken bodily out of the Scottish Bill, and
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if it is necessary for Scotland it seems desirable to place it in the English Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY): Does the noble Earl move all his Amendments?
THE EARL or ONSLOW: If it is convenient, yes.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 22, after ("thereon") insert ("which are specified in the compulsory purchase order as unfit for human habitation or injurious or dangerous to health").—(The Earl of Onslow.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, as I have an Amendment to this clause to insert a proviso in subsection (2), perhaps it would be convenient if I made a few remarks on it. In Committee, the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, had an Amendment almost identical with one in the names of Lord Banbury and myself, the object of which was to do away with the reduction factor altogether; not only in the case where the property to be compulsorily acquired was to be used as an open space, but also where it was to be used for the rehousing of the working classes. I am sorry that he has now slightly given way by his present Amendments, which appear to me to be rather complicated, and asks only for the reduction factor to be abolished in the case of open spaces. If that is so, I hope your Lordships will accept my Amendment instead.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I do not think it is so. I think under my Amendments it would be abolished in all cases, unless the property was specified.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: If that is the case then I will give way, but I should like to reserve my rights to take action later.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I should like to deal first with ale noble Earl's Amendments. I know that the noble Earl has great knowledge of these matters, and has had an opportunity of considering them. I think probably we shall not have much difficulty in agreeing upon what is the best method. I am quite at one with him in regard to the "open space" reduction. It has been pointed out that it might operate harshly upon the owners. It certainly has not in Scot-

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land, where they have a different system of arbitration, but to prevent any difficulty in the future I have put down an Amendment to the compensation clause which brings in what the noble Earl desires—namely, no reduction factor where the land is to be used for open spaces. So far we are agreed.
With regard to other cases, I think, there is no difference, so far as the conditions are similar, between the words in the Scottish Bill and the words in the English Bill; but, as your Lordships know, where you have a series of Acts, as in England, there is a great advantage in carrying through a system which is found to operate well. The only difference between the Scottish system and ours is that they have tenement buildings, with different floors not only occupied by separate persons but owned by separate persons, and that makes specification, if not necessary, a convenient method. As the noble Earl says, apart from that in England we have a system of specification. The owner has ample knowledge of what, is going on, and ample right to bring up his interest at the local inquiry, and to take what precautions are necessary under the Bill for his protection. Then as regards the other point, which is of some importance—namely, the proviso, I have no great objection to it if the noble Earl wishes it inserted, but I consider it to be unnecessary for this reason. The effect of the proviso is that after the passing of this Bill this subsection shall not apply in the case of dwelling-houses or other premises erected after the passing of the Bill which are specified in a compulsory purchase order as injurious or dangerous to health by reason only of the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets. No one knows better than the noble Earl that that question will never arise in England.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Why in Scotland, then?
LORD PARMOOR: There are differences in Scotland as I have said. There the local government procedure is different from ours in many directions, but so far as we are concerned I would ask him, from his experience, whether it is imaginable or conceivable that in these circumstances the local authority in England, instead of insisting upon obedience to its by-laws, and instead of doing its
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duty, would allow the formation of a slum area to go on and thereby create a new compensation scheme, which does not exist at the time. I think, myself, that that is quite unthinkable, I am told that it is quite an unnecessary proviso, but the noble Earl has gone so far to meet us that if he desires the proviso to be inserted I will not oppose it, and it can go down to the otter House and be considered.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has explained a good deal to me in regard to the analogy between the two Bills, but he has not touched upon the point mentioned by Lord Bertie of Thame—namely, the question of the reduction factor in regard to houses which are not specified in Scotland. My Amendment is intended—I do not know whether it is successful—to provide that only those houses which are specified shall he subject to the reduction factor. Might I ask the noble arid learned Lord how houses which would be protected in Scotland would be dealt with under the English Act, to meet the point raised by Lord Bertie? If I have made a mistake, and not included the point in my Amendment, I must beg the noble Viscount's pardon, and I trust it will he dealt with in an Amendment.
LORD PARMOOR: If I might also, with the indulgence of the House, answer what the noble Earl has said, I do not think that the point which the noble Earl has now raised arises on his Amendment. It will arise on Lord Bertie of name's Amendment. At the present time I say quite frankly that I do not appreciate the difficulty in England, or why this provision in Scotland is in any way necessary; but I wish the noble Earl would let that stand over until I hear it fully explained by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie of Thame.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 23, leave out ("of subsections (1) and (2)").
Page 11, lines 24 and 25, leave out ("as regards the first mentioned of those subsections").—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Amendments negatived.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW THE EARL OF ONSLOW moved, after subsection (2), to insert the following proviso:—
"Provided that this subsection shall not apply in the ease of dwelling-houses or other

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premises erected after the passing of this Act which are specified in a compulsory purchase order as injurious or dangerous to health by reason only of the narrowness or bad arrangement of the streets."
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 26, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD PARMOOR: I am not objecting to the proviso.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME had on the Paper an Amendment after subsection (2), to insert:—
"Provided that in any case where it is proved that a building on any land in a clearance area was acquired by the owner before the first day of July, 1919, or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business, the arbitrator shall make to the owner an allowance for the value of the building having regard to the provisions of Part II of the Third Schedule to this Act."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords this Amendment has the advantage of being simple. It was drafted very carefully by my friends and myself to meet the objection taken by the right rev. Prelate, the Bishop of Southwark, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster, who objected that there might be profiteering in slum property after the Bill had been introduced. The reason why I have chosen the date July 1, 1919, is that I understand that that was the date when the Bill was introduced. The words "or is occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business" cover the case where a landlord goes to his tenant and says: "Buy or go." It is going to do away with the reduction factor in the case of both open spaces and the rehousing of the working classes.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not want us to have any confusion. I think the present position is this, that Lord Onslow's Amendment stands. On the other hand, the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, wants to insert his words. Consequently, the question I put is that Lord Onslow's proviso stand part of the Bill. If you say "Content" Lord Bertie will lose his Amendment.
LORD PARATOOR: We are content to accept Lord Onslow's Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: What will be put now is this. The Question will be that Lord Onslow's proviso stand part of the Bill. If you are against that you
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will say "Not-Content," and that will be turned out.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I am quite ready to withdraw the proviso. It really is of no importance. It complicates the Bill. I withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, Lord Onslow's proviso is withdrawn. Now we are going to put Lord Bertie's proviso.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 26, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, we have discussed this pretty often. As I understand, what the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, wants is this. He wants to amend the Bill so that if the owner were an owner before the 1919 Act he shall have, not the limited form of compensation, but a wider form of compensation—
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: Always provided that his house is in good condition, and that he has done nothing illegal with it. That is under Part II of the Third Schedule.
LORD PARMOOR: What I want to put is this. Supposing this is a house which ought to come in a slum area. Ought the owner to be better off because he has had the advantage of this slum property for a longer time?
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Certainly, if he has kept it in a sanitary and respectable condition.
LORD PARMOOR: That is really another question. If everything has been done which would take it out of the slum area principle well and good; the owner will get out of it. But why is the year 1919 introduced? It only means that the man has had the property which has been condemned as part of a slum area longer. If it is in proper repair I presume it would not be condemned; it would be preserved on the island principle.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: No. Tinder the words of Clause 1—"the narrowness or"—the noble and learned Lord knows what I mean.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I am afraid I do not make myself clear. Whatever the provisions of Clause 1 are I do not want to go back to them. We are dealing with the provisions that have brought land and the buildings on it

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into a slum area. What I am saying is that the measure of compensation should not be altered in favour of the owner because he has held that slum property for a longer time. That is the whole question here. He ought not to be given a preferential position on that account. We are not dealing with the question of whether it is a building to be demolished or not. We have already dealt with that. But supposing it conies within that definition, why should anyone have a higher compensation because he has owned property of that kind for a longer time?
LORD BANBURY or SOUTHAM: My Lords, the reason of this Amendment is as follows. My noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster objected to an Amendment which was down in my name on the ground that certain people bought property knowing that the Act of 1919 was in force, in order that they might make profit under that Act. We have put down this Amendment providing that any person holding a house before 1919 should not be penalised, in order to meet the point raised by Lord Buckmaster. A person who held a house before 1919 was not aware of the Act that was coming into force, and therefore it could not be said that he bought this slum property in order to make a profit out of an Act which was not in force when he bought it.
Now, in addition to that, if noble lords will look at the Amendment, they will see that it is all made consequential upon Part II. of the Third Schedule. Part II. of the Third Schedule says this—
"If the arbitrator is satisfied with respect to any premises that the rental thereof was enhanced by reason of their being used for illegal purposes, or being so overcrowded as to be dangerous or injurious to the health of the inmates, the compensation shall, so far as it is based on rental, lie based on the rental which would have been obtainable if the premises were occupied for legal purposes and only by the number of persons whom the premises were, under all the circumstances of the case, fitted to accommodate without such overcrowding.
"If the arbitrator is satisfied that any premises are in a state of defective sanitation, or are not in reasonably good repair, the compensation shall be the estimated value of the premises if put into a sanitary condition, or reasonably good repair, less the estimated expense of putting them into such condition or repair."
That is perfectly clear and our Amendment all hinges on that. So that
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the effect of it is that if I bought a property which was in good order before the Act of 1919 and kept it in good order, and had done nothing illegal, I should receive fair compensation for my property. But if I had done anything illegal, if I had exacted a harsh rent or overcrowded the property, or kept it in an insanitary condition or out of repair, I should only receive the site value. Can anything be fairer than that?
I may say that I have had the advantage of a short conversation with my noble and learned friend Lord Buck-master, and I understood from him that he was inclined to think that this Amendment met his point. I am glad to see that he is in his place. In those circumstances I hope that the noble and learned Lord who leads the House will accept an Amendment which is very reasonable and is only designed to ensure that a person who has done nothing wrong shall not have his property taken away from him without reasonable compensation.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I also am extremely glad that I am here because I cannot help thinking that there has been some misunderstanding. Let me explain, to begin with, what was in my mind when I spoke on the Committee stage. It was this. If a man had acquired property before 1919—that is to, say, before he knew that there were these reduction principles which might be applied to the valuation of the property when it was included in a slum area, and the house was a house which, apart from its neighbourhood, was not a slum house, then there was no reason why his house should be made subject to the reduction of value. Be it so. I still think that there is no particular reason there. But when you look at this Amendment, it is a totally different thing. What the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House said, is true. As this Amendment stands, it would enable a person to get a profit out of slum property by reason of having held it for a long period of time.
That certainly was not my intention. Nor was it my intention that the suggestion should include a, place occupied by the owner for the purpose of residence or business; because it is perfectly clear that an owner might get into a perfectly ramshackle house and

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occupy it as a place of residence immediately before the clearing order was made. That comes within the meaning of this proviso. That was not my intention and it never was my intention. My intention was to secure, if it were possible, fair compensation to a man who had fairly bought his property before the introduction of the Act and had fairly held it after that date. I feel strongly that people who are few in number and apart from the interest of the noble Lord, Lord Banbury, and the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie, powerless to exert influence, ought to be protected in these matters, and I am prepared to help in their protection to the extent that I have stated, but most certainly not beyond.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, may I ask the noble and learned Lord and also the noble Lord the Under Secretary for War, who is in charge of the Scottish Bill, whether I am right in thinking that in Scotland the reduction factor is only applied to those buildings
Resolved in the affirmative and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
Clause 16:
Application to London.
16.—(1) The provisions of this Part of this Act shall apply to the administrative County of London subject to the modifications contained in this section.
(2) Within the City of London the Common Council shall be the local authority for the purposes of this Par of this Act:
Provided that, in the case of an improvement area, by-laws for securing the stability of buildings, or the prevention of or safety from fire, shall be made and enforced by the London County Council.
that are specified? The noble Lord nods his head, so I think I am right, that the unspecified building would not be subject to the reduction factor; but in England such buildings would be left out of the clearance area and, therefore, would not be subject to the reduction factor. Is that the explanation?
LORD PARMOOR: That is so.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Then the houses mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster, would not come into the reduction factor in Engand because they would not be in the clearance area.
LORD PARMOOR: That is so. I quite agree with what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster, said.
On Question, Whether the said proviso shall be there inserted
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 33; Not-Contents, 9.

CONTENTS.

Linlithgow, M.

Morton, E.

Bayford, L.

Normanby, M.

Onslow, E.

Gushendun, L.

Salisbury, M.

Peel, E.

Dynevor, L.

Stanhope, E.

Fairfax of Cameron, L.

Abingdon, E.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.)

Albemarle, E.

Bertie of Thame, V. [Teller.]

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

Effingham, E.

Brentford, V.

Jessel, L.

Grey, E.

Falkland, V.

Lamington, L.

Halsbury, E.

Lawrence, L.

Howe, E.

Addington, L.

St. John of Bletso, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Alvingham, L.

Wharton, L.

Lucan, E.

Banbury of Southam, L. [Teller.]

Mar and Kellie, E.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Sankey, L. (L. Chancellor)

Buckmaster, L.

Marley, L. [Teller.]

Parmoor, L. (L. President.)

Hay, L. (E. Kinnoull.) [Teller.]

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Thomson, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Marks, L.

(3) The London County Council shall, outside the City of London be the authority to declare any area to be an improvement area, to determine what steps shall be taken for the improvement of that area, to purchase any land which they deem it expedient to acquire for opening out the area, to carry out such demolition of buildings and such street works on that land as they deem necessary, to make any by-laws with respect to the area, and to enforce such of those by-laws as are by-laws for securing the stability of buildings or the prevention of or safety from fire, but the council of the Metropolitan borough in which the area is situate, on being informed by the County Council as to the steps which the County Council have determined to be necessary for

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the improvement of the area, shall, subject as aforesaid, take those steps and shall thereafter serve and enforce any necessary notices requiring the execution of works on dwelling-houses in the area or the demolition of dwelling-houses or the closing of parts of buildings therein, and observe and enforce compliance with any by-laws made by the County Council with respect to the area, not being by-laws for securing the stability of buildings or the prevention of or safety from fire:
Provided that in the case of an area containing ten or less than ten houses a Metropolitan borough council may declare that area to be an improvement area and shall be empowered to determine what steps shall be taken for the improvement of that area, to purchase any land which they deem it expedient, to acquire for opening out the area, to carry out such demolition of buildings and such street works on that land as they deem necessary, and to enforce any by-laws made by the London County Council with respect to that area, except those bylaws for securing stability of buildings or the prevention of or safety from fire which shall be enforced by the London County Council:
Provided that, if it is represented to the Minister by the County Council that a borough council have made default in exercising or performing any powers or duties under this subsection, the Minister may by order transfer those powers and duties to the County Council, and any expenses incurred by the County Council in exercising or performing any powers or duties so transferred shall be a debt duo from the borough council to the County Council.
LORD BUCKMASTER LORD BUCKMASTER moved, at beginning of subsection (3), to insert "Subject to the provisions of the next succeeding subsection." The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 14, at the beginning insert ("Subject to the provisions of the next succeeding subsection").—(Lord Bitch-master.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BUCKMASTER LORD BUCKMASTER moved to omit the first proviso in subsection (3). The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 37, leave out from the beginning of line 37 to the end of line 6 on page 14.—(Lord Buckmaster.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BUCKMASTER LORD BUCKMASTER moved, after subsection (3), to insert:
"(4) Without prejudice to the powers of the London County Council under the last
806
preceding subsection, the council of a Metropolitan borough shall as regards any area within that borough which does not contain more than ten dwelling-houses to be a local authority for the purposes of the provisions relating to improvement areas
Provided that—

(i) where the borough council are about to take into consideration a proposal that any area shall be declared by them to be an improvement area, they shall give to the county council notice in writing of their intention and shall not declare that area to be an improvement area until two months have elapsed from the date of the service of that notice, or if before the expiration of that period the County Council notify the borough council that they intend themselves to deal with that area either as a clearance area or as pare of a clearance area or as part of an improvement area; and

(ii) the London County Council shall be the authority to make any by-laws with respect to the area and to enforce such of those by-laws as are by-laws for securing the stability of buildings or the prevention of or safety from fire, but the borough council shall observe and enforce compliance with any by-laws made by the County Council with respect to the area, not being by-laws made for the purposes aforesaid."

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I apologise for having mentioned this prematurely in connection with the other Amendments. My mistake was due to the fact that I had a copy of the first edition of these Amendments which no doubt will be valuable hereafter, but at present is wholly irrelevant. My Amendments were all under one head. This Amendment as it stands is put in to give effect to what your Lordships agreed to in Committee. It is to provide that where you have not more than ten houses the borough council instead of the County Council should be deemed the authority.
LORD PARMOOR: We accept this.
Loan BUCKMASTER: I understand this is merely putting into better form what your Lordships had agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 15, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Buckmaster.)
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I am very glad to think the Government have accepted this Amendment, and I understand from the London County Council that they quite agree to it. My only doubt was whether they had been consulted. I now hear that has been done,

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and, on behalf of the borough councils, we thank the Government for having accepted this.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17:
Power of local authority to require repair of insanitary house.
17.—(1) Where a local authority, upon consideration of an official representation, or a report from any of their officers, or other information in their possession, are satisfied that any dwelling-house which is occupied or is of a type suitable for occupation by persons of the working classes is in any respect unfit for human habitation, they shall, unless they are satisfied that it is not capable at a reasonable expense of being rendered so fit, serve upon such person as is hereinafter mentioned a notice requiring him, within such reasonable time, not being less than twenty-one days, as may be specified in the notice, to execute the works specified in the notice and stating that, in the opinion of the authority, those works will render the house fit for human habitation.
(3) In addition to serving a notice under this section on the person having control or the house, the local authority may serve a copy of the notice on any other person having an interest in the house, whether as freeholder, mortgagee, lessee, or otherwise.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "or is of a type suitable for occupation." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, these words were not in the Bill as it was introduced into the House of Commons and they are not in the Scottish Bill. I therefore beg to move that they be deleted.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 11, leave out from ("occupied") to ("by") in line 12.—(Viscount Bettie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, the effect of the Amendment, if carried, would be to omit from the clause houses which are not at the time actually occupied by persons of the working classes, though in other respects amenable to what I might call the slum doctrine. The Amendment would make the clause less comprehensive than the existing law, since Section 3 of the principal Act, which deals with repairs to houses, applies to any dwelling-house suitable for occupation by persons of the working classes regardless of the question whether it is so occupied or not.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Is the noble Lord in charge of the Scottish Bill
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going to put these words into that Bill, and if not why not?
LORD PARMOOR: Because we prefer the words that have always been in the English Act, and prefer to retain them. It is a little wider no doubt than the other.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to leave out sub-section (3). The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this subsection is not contained in the Scottish Bill and I do not see why it should be put into this Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, lines 32 to 36, leave out subsection (3).—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, we think, and the Ministry of Health think, that our law is satisfactory as it stands, and we do not want it altered in this respect. I dare say the Scottish law has been, as regards their conditions, equally satisfactory to them, and I do not propose for a moment to criticise it, but we prefer our own.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, as this is a small point I will withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 18:
Enforcement of notice requiring execution of repairs.
(4) The local authority may by order declare any such expenses to be payable by weekly, monthly or annual instalments within a period not exceeding thirty years with interest at such rate as the Minister may, with the approval of the Treasury, from time to time by order fix, from the date of the service of the demand until the whole amount is paid, and any such instalments and interest, or any part thereof, may be recovered summarily as a civil debt from any owner or occupier of the dwelling-house, and, if recovered from an occupier, may be deducted by him from the rent of the house.
(5) The amount of any expenses and interests thereon due to a local authority under this section shall be a charge on the premises in respect of which the expenses were incurred, and the local authority shall for the purpose of enforcing that charge have all the same powers and remedies under the Law of Property Act, 1925, and otherwise as if they were mortgagees by deed having powers of sale and lease, of accepting surrenders of leases and of appointing a receiver.
LORD BUCKMASTER LORD BUCKMASTER moved, after subsection (1), to insert:—
"(2) Where the local authority are about to enter upon a dwelling-house under the provisions of the last preceding subsection for the purpose of doing any work, they may give to the person having control of the house and, if they think fit, to any other person being an owner of the house, notice in writing of their intention so to do, and if at any time after the expiration of seven days from the service upon him of such notice and whilst any workman or contractor employed by the local authority is carrying out works in the house, any person upon whom the notice was served or any workman employed by him, or by any contractor employed by him, is in the house for the purpose of carrying out any works, the person upon whom the notice was served shall be deemed to be obstructing the local authority in the execution of this Act and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, unless he proves to the satisfaction of the court before which he is charged that there was urgent necessity to carry out the said works in order to obviate danger to occupants of the house."
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I dare say the House will accept this. It is to provide that where works are being undertaken they shall not he obstructed by the owner preventing the work being carried out. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 15, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Buckmaster.)
LORD LAMJNGTON: I should like to know why such a short time limit as seven days is to be inserted. Surely that is too short a period, and it ought to be 21 days.
LORD BUCK MASTER: My Lords, if you will permit me to give the answer, the answer is this. The idea is that the work of the local authority, which is being undertaken by their workmen, is interfered with by other people, and you must act promptly and get rid of them at the earliest possible moment. Seven days I should think is an abundant time for that. That is the whole explanation.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (4), after "monthly," to insert "quarterly". The noble Lord said: My Lords, I think it will be convenient if we put in the word "quarterly" here.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 2, after ("monthly") insert ("quarterly").—(Viscount Bernie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I do not know if the noble Viscount has seen what we propose in order to meet the point. We propose to leave out "monthly or annual" and to insert "or other". That gives the wider power of discretion which the noble Viscount desires. We are obliged to him for suggesting it and think that in this form it will have a wider application.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 2, leave out ("monthly or annual") and insert ("or other").—(Lord Pormoor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
VISCOUNT BERTIE of THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE of THAME moved to leave out subsection (5). The noble Lord said: My Lords, there is no similar provision in Clause 15 in the Scottish Bill, which is the equivalent to this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, lines 18 to 21, leave out subsection (5).—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, this is merely a provision as regards expenses which the local authority may obtain as against the owner. I do not quite know what the difference is in Scotland, but I think that is quite the right principle. It has long been in our legislation.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, what the noble and learned Lord says is correct. There is a difference between English and Scottish procedure and this clause might well be inserted in the English Bill. If it is not in the Scottish Bill it does not make any great difference to Scotland, I understand.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, after that explanation, I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 19 [Power of local authorities to order demolition of insanitary house]:
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 23, after ("vacated") insert ("or in either case within such longer

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period as in the circumstances the local authority deem it reasonable to specify").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29 [Power of local authority to make arrangements for provision of houses by public utility societies, &c.]:
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I do not propose to move Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Amendment to this clause with reference to an appeal to the Minister. but I should like it to be made clear that the Minister will give the matter careful consideration.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I am quite willing to make that statement. The Minister will be willing to do anything in his power to make such an arrangement.
Clause 31 [Application to London]:
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 21, after the second ("the") insert ("administrative").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32 [Duty of county council in respect of housing conditions in rural districts]:
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 28, leave out ("Part of this Act") and insert ("section").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 35 [Powers of county council and Minister in the event of default of rural district council]:
Amendments moved—
Page 34, line 41, after ("under") insert ("this or").
Page 35, line 13, after ("under") insert ("this or").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 38:
Duty of local authority to have regard to amenities of locality, &c.
38. A local authority in preparing any proposals for the provision of houses or in taking any action under this or the principal Act shall have regard to the natural amenities of the locality and the desirability of preserving existing works of architectural, historic or artistic interest, and shall comply with such directions, if any, in that behalf as may be given to them by the Minister.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 9, leave out ("natural").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DYNEVOR LORD DYNEVOR moved, after "locality," to insert "the beauty of the landscape or countryside." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I moved a somewhat similar Amendment during Committee stage and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Parmoor, took objection, perhaps rightly, that I was moving it in the wrong place and that it was a little too strong. My noble friend Lord Brent-ford suggested the words might come in better in this clause, which will then read—
"shall have regard to the natural amenities of the locality, the beauty of the landscape or countryside and the desirability of preserving exisiting works of architectural, historic or artistic interest."
I want the local authorities, when dealing with these housing schemes, to pay attention to the preserving of the landscape and scenery. I am not going to repeat all the arguments I used during the Committee stage, but your Lordships will fully realise what I have in mind and what the intention is. I hope the Government will be able to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 10, after ("locality") insert ("the beauty of the landscape or countryside ").—(Lord Dynevor.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, the point is whether the word "amenities" is the widest possible term we can use to include everything. Our view is that the words proposed would not add to but would detract from it. The word "amenities" is a word which is used a good deal in this connection and we do not want any doubt upon the point.
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, I am entirely in sympathy with the Amendment. As to "amenities," I wish I had the faintest comprehension of what "amenities" may be. It may perhaps be better to try to make it comprehensive by putting in "the beauty of the landscape or countryside." Perhaps some one will assist my bewildered brain by telling me what the word "amenities" means. Perhaps it is a word so obscure and elastic as to cover everything.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I share with my noble and learned friend his want of knowledge of the meaning of the word "amenity." I do not know if any member of your Lordships' House can give a definition of it. Perhaps it would

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be better to add these words. There is no disagreement as to the desirability of putting them in. It will be clearer and we might also get some definition of "amenity" which will be useful.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I do not want a mistake made about this. We all agree upon it. The word "amenity" as used in the Town Planning Acts is a common term. It comes from the Latin word anœnus. I have no objection to the words quoted, but I believe they are included and that it is better to leave the clause in its present form without further definition. If noble Lords generally think the words should be included I would not raise objection. I think, however, it is cutting down what is as wide a term as possible.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the matter which troubles us is that we do not really know the value of the word "amenity." The noble and learned Lord assures us it includes everything, but we are faced with the fact that one of the greatest lawyers in your Lordships' House is unaware of the meaning of the word. Surely, therefore, we cannot be content with that word? If we are in earnest in trying to protect the beauties of the countryside, we had better put in the words proposed. Of course, if the noble and learned Lord, the Leader of the House, is advised by lawyers who have devoted their minds to this subject, that they are really satisfied with the word "amenity," we may perhaps think better of it on Third Reading. But, as at present advised, the best plan is to put the words in.
LORD MARLEY: The point is that the word "amenity" is used in the Town Planning Acts. If we now add these words, it may suggest that the use of the word in the Town Planning Acts will not include them. It. must be remembered that this Bill applies almost exclusively to thickly populated areas where there are not these beauty places. It would be a pity to put the words in here while excluding them from the Town Planning Acts, which are for rural areas.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: In answer to that, may I say that I understand the Government are going to bring in a Town Planning Bill? Therefore they could bring that into line with this Bill.
LORD MARLEY: I am talking of existing Acts.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: But in the new Bill you could bring it into line with this Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 50:
Amendment of s. 64 of principal Act.
(2) The proviso to Section sixty-four of the principal Act have effect as if the words "forms part of any park, garden, or pleasure ground or" and the word "otherwise" were omitted therefrom.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY THE EARL OF HALSBURY had given Notice to move, in subsection (2), after "if," to insert "for," and to leave out "and the word 'otherwise' were emitted therefrom" and to insert "'is otherwise required for the amenity or convenience of any house' there were substituted the words 'is required for the amenity or convenience of any house whether such amenity or convenience be by way of any park, garden, or pleasure ground or otherwise'." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I called attention in Committee to the danger of this subsection as it is drafted, and I thought I could come to an agreement with the noble and learned Lord. I thought we were in agreement as to the idea I put forward and that it was only a question of wording. I am afraid I am unable to agree with the Amendment standing in the name of the noble and learned. Lord, but as it is only a question of wording, might I suggest to him that I should withdraw my Amendment and that he should not move his Amendment to-day? Then we could talk the matter over before Third Reading to see whether we could agree upon some Amendment.
Loan PARMOOR: I am quite willing to accept that suggestion. I desire agreement in all these matters if possible. I am sure we are of one opinion and I do not think we need argue now about matters of drafting.
Clause 51 [Provisions with respect to official representations]:
Loan PARMOOR: My Lords, the Amendment I have put down to this clause is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 26, after ("of") insert ("this or").—(Lord Parmoor).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 52 [Power of Minister to enforce exercise of powers by local authorities other than rural district councils]:
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, there are throe drafting Amendments that I move to this clause.
Amendments moved—
Page 45, line 38, after ("under") insert ("this or") lines 38 and 39, leave out ("or under this Act").
Page 46, line 24, after ("under") insert ("this or").—(Lord Parmoor).
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 53 [Provisions as to orders directing county council to perform obligations of urban district councils]:
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 31, at end insert ("this or").—(Lord Parmoor).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 55 [Power of Minister to withhold contributions in event of default]:
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I move a drafting Amendment to this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 12, after ("this") insert ("or the principal").—(Lord Parmoor).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 59:
Recovery of possession of houses and buildings for purposes of Housing Acts.
59.—(1) Section one hundred and twenty-eight of the principal Act (which excludes in certain cases the application of the increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Act, 1920) is hereby repealed and in substitution therefor the following provisions of this subsection shall have effect, that is to say:—
Nothing in the Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Acts, 1920 to 1925, shall be deemed to affect the provisions of this Act relating to the obtaining possession of a house with respect to which a clearance order or demolition order has been made, or to prevent possession being obtained of any house possession of which is required for the purpose of enabling a local authority to exercise their powers under any enactment relating to the housing of the working classes, or for
816
the purpose of securing compliance with any by-laws made for the prevention of overcrowding.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert, "Provided that the local authority satisfy the court that accommodation is available for the person displaced". The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this point was fully discussed in Committee and in another place. The present Amendment is not quite in the same form of words. The Minister in charge promised to redraft the clause on Report. The hon. gentleman who moved the Amendment I understand is not quite satisfied. My suggestion is to declare the intention that poor people should not be turned out until another place is built for them. If this Amendment is not accepted, I think the Title of the Bill should be altered to "Housing and Dis-housing Bill".
Amendment moved—
Page 49, line 28, at end insert the said proviso.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: I think the whole principle of the Bill is that displacement and replacement ought to go on side by side, and I should have thought that the Bill as it stands is sufficiently strong.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: If the noble and learned Lord would accept this Amendment it would make it clear.
LORD PARMOOR: We may differ about a question of drafting very often Multiplicity of words does not always lead to clearness. I hope the noble Viscount will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 60:
Definition of "agricultural parish" for purposes of housing subsidies.
60.—(1) For the purposes of the Housing (Financial Provisions) Act, 1924, so far as regards any house for the provision of which a proposal is approved by the Minister after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty, and for the purposes of Part III of this Act, a house shall be deemed to be situated in an agricultural parish if—

(a) the net annual value of the agricultural land in the parish in which the house is situated as appearing in the valuation list in force on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-nine exceeded twenty-five per cent. of the total net annual value of that parish as appearing in the said list; and

817

(b) the population of the parish, according to the latest census return of the Registrar-General published before the beginning of the financial year in which the proposal for the provision of the house is approved by the Minister or, as the case may he, in which persons are displaced from the house, is less than fifty persons per hundred acres.

LORD BAYFORD LORD BAYFORD moved, at the end of paragraph (a) of subsection (1), to leave out "and" and insert "or". The noble Lord said: My Lords, the effect a the Bill as it stands is that in order to qualify as an agricultural parish a parish must fulfil two conditions. The object of this Amendment is to provide that instead of a parish having to fulfil both those conditions, it should only be necessary for the parish to fulfil one or other in order to qualify as agricultural. There are some cases with regard to the percentage of agricultural land where by reason of there being one or two large houses or a railway line in the area, a parish would fail to qualify under the subsection as it stands in the Bill. The object of this Amendment is that if the parish fails to comply under one paragraph, it should be able to qualify under the other. When the Bill was in Committee the noble and learned Lord the Lord President was good enough to express at all events a certain amount of benevolence towards this Amendment, and I am not without hope that he may be able now to see his way to accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 9, leave out ("and") and insert ("or").—(Lord Bayford.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, this is the same question as we discussed before, whether you should have two conditions or only one. I have had an opportunity of discussing this matter with the noble Lord whose name is also on the paper as proposing this Amendment (Lord Clinton), and I thought he was satisfied not to be here and not to press it. I do not think the Amendment ought to be accepted.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I hope my noble friend will press the Amendment. I can assure him there is very strong feeling in agricultural parishes on this subject. I have been asked by the County Councils Association to press for this, because they say there are many
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parishes which would otherwise be left out and great hardship would result. I hope the noble Lord will press this as it is an important Amendment.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I think this is important because, as the noble Lord, Lord Strachie, has said, under the clause as it stands a certain number of agricultural parishes might be excluded, as ii, were, by accident. I hope the noble Lord will press the Amendment, and I hope the noble and learned Lord opposite will give some explanation as to how the necessities of these parishes would he met if they were excluded by the accident of there being a large house or a railway or a factory included in the parish. We know that many parishes are very straggling and a parish might be almost urban in one corner. I think, therefore, we might at any rate ask the noble and learned Lord for some clear explanation as to how that difficulty would be met.
LORD PARMOOR: I shall not oppose the Amendment, hut the noble Lord, Lord Bayford, will understand that in another place a different view may be taken.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PARMOOR: I have a drafting Amendment to move to this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 20, leave out ("Act, 1925") and insert ("Acts, 1925 to 1929").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 62
Interpretation.
62.—(1) For the purposes of this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—
The expression "disrepair" includes deficiency in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to tile wilful default or neglect of the occupants of the house and is net likely to injure or endanger their health; and
The expression "sanitary defects" includes lack of air space or of ventilation, darkness, dampness, absence of adequate and readily accessible water supply or sanitary accommodation or of other conveniences and inadequate paving or drainage of courts, yards or passages.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I have a drafting Amendment to move to this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 39, after ("this") insert ("or the principal").—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), in the definition of disrepair, after "deficiency," to insert "arising from default on the part of the landlord." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to make certain that an owner of property is not to be liable for decorations in cases where it is customary for the tenant to be responsible for them. Your Lordships will realise that if the onus is Shifted on to the shoulders of the landlord it will be unfair to him because he will be precluded under the Rent Restrictions Acts from getting any increase of rent. Where a tenant is liable for repairs that is taken into account in fixing the rent.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 6, after ("deficiency") insert ("arising from default on the part of the landlord").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I think this would be a limiting Amendment. As the clause stands at present the expression "disrepair" includes deficiency arising from default on the part of the landlord in respect of internal repairs. The objection to the Amendment really is that if the words "default on the part of the landlord" are to be construed as a breach by the landlord of contractual obligations entered into with the tenant, the definition would be unduly limited. I think the Bill is better without these words.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, is it quite clear that without this Amendment no new liability will be put on the landlord? Will the landlord have to undertake painting and papering for which at the present time he is not liable? That is the point raised by my noble friend. If he is correct in thinking that there will be this increased liability, then I think this Amendment should be accepted.
LORD PARMOOR: May I ask if the noble Earl thinks these words need be added? I should have thought not.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I am disposed to think some words of the kind ought
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to be put in. Might I suggest that they might be put in now and possibly revised on Third Reading?
LORD PARMOOR: I do not object to that, on the understanding that we have to review the matter.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved, in the definition of "disrepair," to leave out "and is not likely to injure or endanger their health." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is an interpretation paragraph, which enacts that the word "disrepair" includes deficiency in respect of painting, papering or distempering of walls—
"except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to the wilful default or neglect of the occupants of the house."
My Amendment is to leave those words as they are, but there follow the words which I wish to leave out. The effect of those words, if they remain, is to do away with the whole of the previous paragraph. What would happen? A tenant, owing to wilful neglect, does not keep in order the internal painting, papering or distempering of walls, and the landlord says that this has not been done owing to wilful neglect. The tenant replies: "That is quite true, but the effect of my wilful neglect is that I and my family are in danger of our lives if we live in the house, and accordingly you must do something which I ought to have done." The effect of the words is to make the previous paragraph utterly useless. I hope that the noble and learned Lord, the Leader of the House, will accept this Amendment. Surely he does not want to have words in the Bill which really mean nothing? The effect of the words would be to leave it entirely to the power of a tenant, who wilfully neglects something which he ought to do, to compel the landlord to put right that wilful neglect. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 51, line 10, leave out from ("house") to ("and") in line 11.—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I hope this Amendment will not be accepted. If, in fact, the neglect of the tenant has been carried on over such a long period of years that the house has become dangerous and injurious to health, surely the

821
landlord must bear some responsibility for having so badly minded his property that he has not kept an eye on the tenant? After all, the question of property management does come in here, and when the property has come to such a state that it is injurious to health, perhaps on account of the ignorance of the tenant, you must be able to compel repairs to the house. I trust your Lordships will not accept this Amendment.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I must say that the explanation given by the noble Lord somewhat surprises me. He spoke of neglect over a large number of years. Supposing it happened that a tenant, perhaps under the influence of good cheer, were to do a little destruction in his house and smash a window, and were then to say that the broken window gave him a cold. He might then claim that the house was injurious to health, and charge the landlord for the repair. It seems to me that this will be quite possible under the clause, though I do not see how the unfortunate landlord could possibly be held responsible. I do not know whether any other words could be substituted to meet my noble friend behind me, but I suggest, since we are leaving certain portions of the Bill undecided until Third Reading, that we might leave this over and see if we cannot re-draft the clause with a more precise meaning and a, more satisfactory effect than it has at present. I venture to suggest that course to your Lordships.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I have no objection to that suggestion. We are very anxious that this Bill should operate fairly. If these words are omitted now it must be clearly understood that the matter will have to be reconsidered between now and Third Reading.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule [Clearance Orders]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to insert the following new paragraph:—
"6. Before confirming the order the Minister shall send to the local authority and to every person who having given notice to the Minister of his objection to the order, appeared at the public local inquiry in support of his objection, a copy of the order as proposed to be confirmed, with an intimation that any representations in writing with respect thereto may be made to the Minister within fourteen days after the date on which
822
a copy has been sent, and before confirming the order the Minister shall consider any representations received."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the Scottish Bill, as introduced in another place, did not contain this paragraph. As told your Lordships in Committee, it was inserted on the Motion of Mr. Adamson. I can only repeat what I said then—namely, that what is good for Scotland should be given to England.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 8, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I am afraid I can only answer that, if we get the terms that we want for England—and this is founded on English practice—I do not think we ought to alter them merely because, under the different conditions of local life and local government in Scotland, they have some other system.
On Question, Amendment negatived.

SECOND SCHEDULE.
  COMPULSORY PURCHASE ORDERS.

    PART I.
    Provisions applicable in the case of Compulsory Purchase Orders made for the purposes of this Act and, subject to the modifications contained in. Part 11 of this Schedule, in the case of such Orders made for the purposes of Part III of the principal Act.
    3. If the order is made in connection with a clearance area t shall show in the prescribed manner—
    (b) what parts, if any, of the land to be purchased compulsorily within the clearance area are to be appropriated for the rehousing of persons of the working classes or for laying out as an open space.
    LORD PARMOOR LORD PARMOOR moved, in paragraph 3 (6), to leave out "or for, laying out as an open space." The Lord learned said: My Lords, this Amendment and that which follows carry out the undertaking that I gave to the noble Earl opposite as to that which has to be taken into consideration as a reduction factor.
    Amendment moved—
    Page 55, lines 41 and 42, leave out ("or for laying out as an open space").—(Lord Parmoor).
    THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble and

    823
    learned Lord for meeting me in this matter. He has met what is really the main point of my Amendments, and I think he carries out their intention fully and, I hope, does all that we want in this Bill. I am very much obliged to the noble and learned Lord for the way in which he has met me.
    On Question, Amendment agreed to.
    Amendment moved—
    Page 56, lines 39 and 40 leave out ("or for the laying out as an open space").—(Lord Parmoor).
    On Question, Amendment agreed to.
    Third Schedule:
    LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I have a consequential Amendment to this Schedule.
    Amendment moved—
    Page 58, line 13, leave out from the beginning of line 13 to the end of line 29 and insert:
    ("The proviso to the subsection shall be omitted").—(Lord Banbury of Southam).
    On Question, Amendment agreed to.
    LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, my Amendments to this Schedule are also consequential.
    Amendments moved—
    Page 58, lines 18 and 19, leave out ("or for laying out as an open space").
    Page 58, line 29, at end insert ("and the words or the laying out of open spaces' shall be omitted").—(Lord Parmoor).
    On Question, Amendments agreed to.
    LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, we pro- pose to take the Third Reading of this Bill on Monday. I think we have thoroughly discussed all the matters at issue, and there are only one or two outstanding matters to be settled.

ROAD TRAFFIC BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the consideration of Commons Amendments.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, that the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I wish to make one protest against the
824
sixty-three pages of Commons Amendments being hurled at this House at this time. The Bill passed in the other place only on Wednesday night, the Amendments were only printed yesterday and your Lordships have only just been able to get them. There are more than four hundred Commons Amendments. On the other hand, I know that there is congestion of business. I would suggest to your Lordships that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack might put the Amendments en bloc by clauses. My noble friend Lord Howe desires to speak on Clauses 6 and 21, and I wish to say a word or two on the Amendments that I shall propose. Those are the only points with which I intend to trouble your Lordships.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I agree with what the noble Viscount has said. It looks a rather formidable volume of Amendments. Indeed this Bill in the course of its passage through the two Houses has had 2,546 Amendments put down to it. It looks, however, more formidable than it is. The noble Viscount suggests that these Amendments, when they are drafting and consequential, or mere matters of machinery, should be put en bloc, and if noble Lords would trust me to put those in such a way as not to interfere with any point which may need discussion or consideration, I shall be very glad to do so. My noble friend who is helping me will do the intellectual work, and I will do the mechanical.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, we want, of course, to co-operate with the Government in the passage of business. I am quite certain that your Lordships will have no objection to drafting and consequential Amendments being put en bloc. That is very often done in this House, and at the same time when we come to machinery Amendments we must, of course, trust the Government. We have, of course, absolute confidence that they will treat your Lordships quite fairly. It would, however, be very easy to go too far in putting Amendments en bloc, because although my noble friends on this Bench might be satisfied, there might be noble Lords in other parts of the House who might wish to raise questions. That would not be the case upon drafting or consequential Amend-

825
meats, but on machinery Amendments, unless it is a very obvious matter, I do not think we ought to go too far in that respect. I am, of course, not speaking in the interests of the Front Bench, but of other members, and we must be careful not to set too many precedents.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (EARL RUSSELL): Your Lordships will realise how very difficult this matter is with this mass of Amendments, but we will both watch and see as far as possible that they are put in the proper way.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: We will, of course, trust the noble Earl in the matter.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
[The references are to Bill No. 72.]
In the Title, page 1, line 8, after ("1909") insert ("to amend the law with respect to the powers of local authorities to provide public service vehicles").
EARL RUSSELL: This is an Amendment to alter the title by putting in the words "to amend the law with respect to the powers of local authorities to provide public service vehicles," and you may think it convenient to take a general discussion on the point now. This is put in to justify Part V of the Bill, which was taken out in this House. As your Lordships probably know that Part, which was very contentious here and upon which we divided, was ultimately agreed to in another place, after pro-longer negotiations, by all the parties concerned. It does not correspond with that Part of the Bill when it was before your Lordships, nor with the Bill which had also arisen in another place dealing with some similar powers and ordered by Instruction in another place to be inserted in the Bill. It is the result of a compromise between all parties concerned, local authorities, persons running services on the road, railway companies, and, I think, all political Parties, and in the result it passed through Committee in another place, after a brief discussion, with general assent. I hope your Lordships will assent to it to-day. It does not entirely satisfy everybody but, of course, no compromise ever does, and that probably is its best justification. This is the first Amendment, which enables us to insert that Part in the Bill.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I have seen the Minister of Transport in the late Conservative Government who had charge of the Bill in another place, and he and those working with him are quite satisfied with Part V of the Bill. Your Lordships will remember that we threw out the whole of Part V in this House, but considerable modification has taken place, and there has been full discussion with all the parties interested. I think Part V, as it now appears in the Amendments from the Commons, is such that it is not necessary to raise any further objection to it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 1, page 1, line 14, after ("that") insert ("(a) the provisions of")
Clause 1, page 1, Line 15, leave out ("or trolley vehicles")
page 2, line 2, leave out ("unless") and insert ("and (b) the provisions of this Part of this Act, other than Sections four to eight, both inclusive, Sections eleven, twelve, fifteen and twenty-three shall not apply to trolley vehicles the use of which is authorised or regulated as aforesaid; unless in either case")
page 2, line 4, leave out subsection (2).
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the effect of these Amendments is to give effect to an undertaking given during the debates in Committee in the other place, that certain of the provisions of Part I of the Bill would be made applicable to trolley vehicles, on the ground that they did not differ essentially from omnibuses. It was agreed that the provisions of Part I could not in any case be made applicable to tramcars and tramway undertakings, as these were governed by special Acts and Orders. The provisions of the Bill which it is proposed to snake applicable to trolley vehicles are those relating to the licensing of drivers and the disqualification for offences and endorsement of convictions, careless and dangerous driving, being drunk in charge, and inquiries into accidents. The effect of these Amendments, which I have read out to your Lordships, is to apply this Part of the Bill to trolley vehicles, and I think I might move this set of Amendments en bloc.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 2, page 2, line 12, leave out ("Part of this")
LORD PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: This is a drafting Amendment, and I move that your Lordships agree to it.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 4, line 21, after ("weight") insert ("and") leave out ("and use").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: This also is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 4, line, 24, leave out paragraph (a) and insert:
("(a) Where any regulations made after the passing of this Act contain provisions varying the requirements as regards the construction or weight of any class or description of vehicles provision shall be made by the regulations for exempting for such period (not being less than five years) as may be specified therein from the provisions aforesaid any vehicle of that class or description registered under the Roads Act, 1920, before the expiration of one year from the making of the regulations; and")
Page 4, line 42, at end insert: ("(2) The Minister may at any time revoke, vary, or amend an order made under this section.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the proviso which it is proposed to omit was inserted in this House, and in its old form would hate prevented the repeal of any regulation that had been made. In its new form it has been agreed with the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. It provides that existing vehicles and any vehicles which may be registered within twelve months of the making of any new regulations shall, for a period of five years at least, be exempted from the provisions of any new regulations.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 4, page 5, line 28, at beginning insert ("subject to the provisions of this Act with respect to provisional licences")
Clause 4, page 5, line 28, after ("revoke") insert ("or surrendered")
Clause 4, page 5, line 33, after ("examination") insert ("so as to enable the police constable to ascertain the name and address of the holder of the licence, the date of issue and the authority by which it was issued")
Clause 5, page 7, line 14, leave out ("the applicant") and insert ("an applicant who is suffering from a disease or disability other than a disease or disability prescribed as aforesaid")
Clause 5, page 7, line 27, after ("for") insert ("the grant of")
Clause 5, page 7, line 32, leave out from ("proviso") to ("unless") in line 34, and insert ("a further test shall not be required")
Clause 6, page 9, line 2, leave out ("an offence under this Part of this Act") and insert ("any criminal offence")
Clause 6, page 9, line 3, at end insert ("not being an offence under Part IV of this Act)")
Clause 7, page 9, line 30, leave out ("the") and insert ("a")
Clause 8, page 11, line 37, after ("endorsed") insert ("and who has not previously become entitled under the provisions of this section to have a licence issued to him free from endorsement")
Clause 8, page 11, line 40, after ("months") insert ("or to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds")
Clause 8, page 11, line 41, after ("months") insert ("or to a fine")
Page 12, line 9, after ("shillings") insert ("and subject to surrender of any subsisting licence")
Page 12, line 29, at end insert ("Where the disqualification to which a person has become subject is limited to the driving of a motor vehicle of a particular class or description the licensing authority to whom that person's licence has been forwarded under this subsection shall forthwith after the receipt thereof issue to that person a new licence on which there shall be indicated in the prescribed manner the class or description of which the holder of the licence is not thereby authorised to drive, and the licence so issued shall remain in force either for the unexpired period of the original licence or for the period of the disqualification, whichever is the shorter")
Clause 9, page 13, line 2, leave out ("regularly") and insert ("in the habit of")
Clause 9, page 13, line 5, after ("cycle") insert ("or an invalid carriage")
Clause 9, page 13, line 12, leave out ("regularly engaged in") and insert ("in the habit of")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these Amendments are all drafting or consequential, but I may say a word on Clause 4, page 5, line 33. This Amendment was inserted in the Committee stage in the House of Commons. The effect of it is that a police constable who requires the production of a driving licence is not entitled to look at any endorsements which may be on the licence.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, before these Amendments are agreed to, there is one point I would like to put to the noble Earl in connection with Clause 6. There is an Amendment down to Clause 6 to leave out "an offence under this Part of this Act" and to insert "any criminal offence." I would like to ask what we are to understand by the words "any criminal offence"? The clause provides that the court may disqualify for holding a motor driver's licence for offences in connection with tike driving of a motor vehicle such as are specified in Clauses 9 to 20; and the offences are: driving under age; third conviction for exceeding the speed limit; second conviction for reckless driving; third conviction for reckless driving; any conviction for driving when drunk, or being drunk in charge; pillion riding in contravention of Clause 16 (1); offences in connection with trailers; offences in connection with hours of duty; and also the offence of failing to give name and address. The point is that the correct interpretation of the expression "any criminal offence" will, I submit, very largely depend upon what is actually said upon this point during the passage of the Bill. The Amendment was made, I understand, in another place on Report stage, and it was explained by the Solicitor-General that it was a drafting Amendment to go with the succeeding Amendment, which is to ensure that a man may be disqualified by the Judge by virtue of a conviction for manslaughter from obtaining a licence. But the Amendment does appear to be one of substance and to require a little explanation.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the explanation given in another place is the complete explanation. The Amendment really is very little more than a drafting Amendment. The words are "an offence under this Part of this Act in connection with the driving of a motor vehicle'. An offence under this Part of the Act would not include a conviction for manslaughter before a Judge at Assizes, and he would be without the power of a police court to disqualify or suspend the licence, or to endorse it. It is thought proper in such cases that he should have the power which magistrates would have for a very much smaller offence.
EARL HOWE: Is it clear that "any such criminal offence" does not include such offences as driving under age, and the other things that I quoted?
EARL RUSSELL: I think "any criminal offence" would be any offence that would properly be endorsed upon a licence, but it must be in connection with the driving of a car.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 13, line 13, at end insert:
("Provided that a vehicle being an agricultural tractor shall not be deemed to be driven on a road within the meaning of this subsection while it is being so driven in the course of the internal operations of a farm.")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment. This concession is made in the interests of agriculture, and I think it ought not to be classed exactly as a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede).
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 13, line 18, after ("vehicle") insert ("or a motor vehicle of any class").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment. This is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede).
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 10, page 13, line 31, leave out ("conviction for a first or second") and insert ("first or second conviction for an").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment. This is also a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede).
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 14, line 3, leave out from ("Act,") to end of subsection, and insert:
("Provided that—

(a) no speed limit shall be imposed on any vehicle in the ease of which no speed limit is provided by the said Schedule; and

(b) a regulation under this subsection shall be of no effect unless and until it has been approved by a Resolution passed by each House of Parliament.")

EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment. This was an Amendment moved by the late Minister of Transport and accepted by the Government. It enables the Minister to vary the limits of speed by regulation. When the Bill was in this House, I pointed out that the Royal Commission had said it was desirable that these speed limits should be fixed by Statute, and not otherwise, and should not be subject to alteration by regulation. When in another place they came to deal with the schedule of various speeds, of which your Lordships will recollect the difficulty, they found such great difficulty in the classes of vehicles which it was necessary to except, and the particular cases of particular kinds of vehicles made such difficulty about the whole matter, that in the end the Committee as a whole felt that the matter could not possibly be managed without giving some flexibility to the clause. Therefore, not at the request of the Government, but by the general sense of the Committee, and on the motion, in fact, of the Opposition, it was decided to give the Minister power to alter the speeds by regulation. That is the effect of this Amendment. In spite of the recommendation of the Royal Commission the thing was found to be impracticable.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I feel a little hesitation with regard to this. There are many regulations under this Bill made by the Minister of various degrees of harshness. Sometimes they are to be laid on the Table of the House for a certain number of days before they become law. This is of the harshest and most difficult kind, I think, that there can be in. any provision inserted in any Bill. You will see that no regulation will have effect until it has been approved by a Resolution passed by both Houses of Parliament. If it is desirable to give the Minister power to act in this way, I cannot help feeling that perhaps it is a little bit too much to expect both Houses of Parliament to find time for this matter; and although the noble Earl knows so much more about this matter than I do, I should like to have a word of reassurance from him that he is not himself dissatisfied with this particular provision.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I am not generally in favour of affirmative Resolutions unless the case requires them, but you are here, after all, going contrary to the recommendation of the Royal Commission, and you are putting in the hands of the Minister very considerable power, and it seems to me an eminently proper case where Parliament ought affirmatively to approve his action.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I take entirely the same view, and I hope the noble Earl will not press his objection. We are giving the Minister more power than when the Bill passed through this House.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 10, page 14, line 35, leave out ("shall be") and insert ("may be produced as")
Clause 11, page 15, leave out paragraph (2) and insert:
("On summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding four months, and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction either to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to such imprisonment as aforesaid or to both such fine and imprisonment;")
Clause 12, page 15, line 39, after ("A") insert ("first or second")
Clause 13, page 15, line 43, leave out ("an organised") and insert ("a")
Page 16, line 1, leave out ("road") and insert ("public highway").
Clause 14, page 16, line 14, at end insert ("and shall be liable in the case of a first conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds, and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds:")
Clause 14, page 16, line 24, leave out ("car") and insert ("motor vehicle")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are all drafting or consequential Amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 16, line 29, after ("section") insert ("prejudices the operation of Section one hundred and ninety-three of the Law of Property Act, 1925 (which relates to the rights of the public over commons and waste lands) or of any by-laws applying to any land or")
Page 16, line 31, at end insert ("or in particular confers any right to park a vehicle on any land")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to make it clear that the provisions of the clause do not affect the provisions of Section 193 of the Law of Property Act, which deals with the rights of the public over common and waste land. This and the following Amendment hang together. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendiments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 15, page 16, line 35, leave out ("drugs") and insert ("a drug")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment, and I beg to move that it be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 16, line 36, leave out from ("liable") to end of subsection and insert:

("(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding four months, and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction either to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to such imprisonment as aforesaid or to both such fine and imprisonment:

(b) on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine, or to both such imprisonment and fine")

EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this Amendment has merely the object of making the penalities for being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle the same as those for dangerous driving. I beg to move that it be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 17, line 3, leave out from ("licence") to end of subsection.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move that it be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 16, page 17, line 23, leave out ("guilty of an offence") and insert ("liable in the case of the first conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds, and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the offences under this clause are regarded as less serious than many of the other offences under the Bill and a lower maximum penalty has been suggested. I beg to move that the Amendment be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 17, page 17, line 27, leave out ("road") and insert ("highway and where any such locomotive is drawing a trailer or trailers on a highway one or more persons, in addition to the persons employed as

835
aforesaid shall be employed for the purpose of attending to the trailer or trailers at the rate of one such additional person for each trailer in excess of one.
"Provided that this subsection shall not apply to a road roller while engaged in rolling a road.")
Clause 17, page 17, line 28, after ("vehicle") insert ("other than a heavy locomotive or a light locomotive.")
Clause 17, page 17, line 28, leave out ("more than one") and insert ("a")
Clause 17, page 17, line 29, after ("trailer") insert ("or trailers")
Clause 17, page 17, line 29, leave out ("road") and insert ("highway")
Clause 17, page 17, line 29, leave out ("or more persons") and insert ("person")
Clause 17, page 17, line 30, leave out ("persons employed in driving and attending to") and insert ("driver of")
Page 17, line 31, leave out ("employed") and insert ("carried either on the vehicle or on a trailer")
Page 17, line 32, after first ("the") insert ("trailer or.")
Page 17, line 32, leave out from ("trailers") to end of subsection.
Page 17, line 37, after ("any") insert ("agricultural")
Page 17, line 40, at end insert:
("(5) The Minister may by regulation vary the requirements of this section in respect of any class or description of motor vehicles or any class or description of trailers.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, these Amendments to Clause 17 should be read together. As the Bill left your Lordship's House the clause provided that where a motor vehicle was drawing a trailer or trailers one or more persons in addition to the person employed in attending to the vehicle should be employed to attend to the trailers at the rate of one additional person for each additional trailer in excess of one. The provision was left intact so far as locomotives were concerned. As regards other motor vehicles an Amendment was made in Committee providing that one person in addition to the driver shall be carried on the vehicle or on the trailer for the purpose of attending to the trailer or trailers; that is to say, even in a case of a vehicle drawing only one trailer. Afterwards it was pointed out that a general provision of this kind would in certain cases inflict hardship or even could not be complied with; for instance, in the case of articulated vehicles and the light caravans or luggage carriers attached to ordinary motor cars and trailers of the container type which, I am told, are largely used for the transfer of meat from the docks.
A new subsection was added on Report which provided that the Minister might
836
by regulation vary the requirements of the clause in respect of any class or description of trailers. That covers all these Amendments to Clause 17 and perhaps I might move them en bloc.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 18, page 18, line 2, after ("vehicle") insert ("on a highway")
Clause 19, page 18, leave out lines 38 to 41 and insert:
("(iii) so that the driver has not at least ten consecutive hours for test in any period of twenty-four hours calculated from the commencement of any period of driving:")
Clause 19, page 18, line 42, leave out ("to allow") and insert ("if the driver has")
Page 19, line 1, after ("nine") insert ("consecutive")
Page 19, line 1, leave out ("a") and insert ("any such")
Page 19, line 1, leave out ("if a driver is allowed") and insert ("provided that he has")
Page 19, line 2, after ("of") insert ("at least") and after ("twelve") insert ("consecutive")
Page 19, line 4, leave out ("purpose") and insert ("purposes")
Page 19, line 9, leave out the second ("and")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these Amendments are drafting and consequential, and I beg to move that they be agreed to en bloc.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shalbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMSNDMENT.
Clause 19, page 19, line 16, at end insert:
("(c) in the case of a vehicle which is being used in the course of operations of agriculture or forestry a person shah not be deemed to be driving the vehicle or to be spending time on work in connection with the vehicle or the load carried thereby so long as the vehicle is elsewhere than on a road.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this be agreed to. The clause as a whole imposes certain limits of time during which people could remain continuously on duty, and the object of these words is that when a vehicle is being used in connection with agriculture and forestry a person shall not be deemed to be driving the vehicle or spending time

837
on work so long as the vehicle stands elsewhere than on the public road.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 19, line 36, at end insert:—
("(5) This section shall not apply to motor vehicles used for fire brigade or ambulance purposes.")
Loan PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that this consequential Amendment be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lard Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 21, page 20, line 22, leave out ("twenty-one") and insert ("fourteen")
Clause 21, page 20, line 25, leave out ("twenty-one") and insert ("fourteen.")
Clause 21, page 20, line 40, leave out from ("ascertained") to end of subsection and insert ("in time for a summons to be served or for a notice to be served or sent as aforesaid; or")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, these Amendments were agreed to in the interests of motorists because they reduce the time during which they have to be served either with a notice or with a summons from 21 to 14 days. I beg to move that these Amendments be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, before we pass away from this clause there is a question that I should like to ask the noble Earl. When these particular Amendments were being inserted in another place the Minister gave an undertaking that a circular would be issued to the police authorities that when issuing a summons they should specify more particularly the charge against the alleged defendant. The purpose of that, of course, was to enable the defendant to try to obtain some information as to the precise nature of the charge made against him. Could the noble Earl now state what steps have been taken by the Home Office to give effect to that undertaking? Has the circular been printed
838
and, if so, could the Government give your Lordships any indication as to its terms?
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I am sorry, but the noble Earl did not give me any notice that he was going to put this question and I am afraid that I cannot give him any satisfaction in regard to it. The matter was discussed in another place and certain assurances were given. It is understood that the summons will specify sufficient to enable the man to identify the time and place of the offence that he is charged with. But what more has been done I am afraid I am not in a position to say.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 23, page 21, line 42 at end insert:
("(4) Any report made by or to the Minister as the result of an inquiry under this section shall not be used in evidence by or on behalf of any person by or against whom any legal proceedings are instituted in consequence of the accident to which the inquiry relates.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this subsection only enacts the existing law, but it was thought desirable to put it into the Bill. I beg to move that it be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 24, page 22, line 1, leave out ("may")
LORD PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, that is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 22, line 2, after ("responsible,") insert ("and a bridge authority as regards any bridge for the maintenance of which they are responsible may subject to such conditions as they think fit")
Clause 24, page 22, line 6, after ("road") insert ("or bridge")
Clause 24, page 22, line 12, after ("not,") insert ("so long as the conditions, if any, attached to the permit are complied with")
Clause 24, page 22, line 14, after ("road") insert ("or bridge")
Clause 24, page 22, line 16, at end insert:
("Provided that where a highway authority are responsible for the maintenance of a road passing over a bridge but not for the maintenance of the bridge itself the power conferred by this section shall be exerciseable by the bridge authority and not by the highway authority.
(2) In this section the expression 'highway authority' includes any person responsible for the maintenance of a road.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the Amendments to this clause are directed to two main objects. The first is to provide that a bridge authority—that is, a, railway or canal company—can grant a permit for the use of a bridge maintained by them for a vehicle carrying an exceptional load. The second is to make it clear that conditions may be attached to the grant of a permit either by a highway authority or a bridge authority. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 25, page 22, line 19, leave out ("either,") and insert:

("(a) to carry a heavy locomotive; or

(b) to carry a light locomotive; or")

Earl RUSSELL Earl RUSSELL had given Notice that he would move to disagree. The noble Earl Said: My Lords, you will see that there is a Government Amendment put down to disagree with a portion of the Commons Amendments here. The Amendments with which it is proposed to disagree were made on the Report stage to an interim form of the subsection resulting from Amendments on the Committee stage. It is now proposed to revert to the interim form of paragraphs (a) and (b), arid the Amendments have to be considered in connection with the proviso in the subsection which is also to be amended and which limits the maximum weight which may be specified in a notice.
A difficulty in connection with the clause is that the maximum permissible weight of a locomotive drawing three laden trailers is very high. It is in the neighbourhood of sixty tons, and under the clause as it stood it would have been open to the bridge authority to put a notice on the bridge to the effect that the bridge was incapable of carrying a load exceeding, say, forty tons. It is not considered desirable that weights in the
840
neighbourhood of sixty tons should be specified by notices. As the clause stands a bridge could still be closed to heavy locomotives because it was insufficient to carry the maximum permissible weight. The best way out of the difficulty is thought to be to make regulations limiting the maximum aggregate of the locomotive and trailer which may be drawn over a bridge without the consent of the authority. The Amendment proposed by line 38 will enable the maximum weight to be limited accordingly. The other Amendments of the clause are of a drafting and consequential character. I beg to move that this House doth disagree with the Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 22, line 20, leave out from the first ("a") to ("motor") in line 21.
Page 22, line 24, leave out from the first ("a") to ("motor") in line 25.
Page 22, line 30, leave out ("on or near") and insert ("in a proper position at the end of each.")
Page 22, line 30, leave out from ("bridge") to end of line 32.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 22, line 34, leave out ("either") and insert:

("(a) by a heavy locomotive; or

(b) by a heavy locomotive or a light locomotive; or

(c)

EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move an Amendment in place of the Commons Amendment, to substitute these words:—

(a) a heavy locomitive; or

(b) a heavy locomotive or a light locomotive;

(c)

Moved, That this House doth disagree with the Commons in the said Amendment and propose an Amendment in lieu thereof.—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I should like to say a, word on the question of the trailer. I do not know

841
whether the noble Earl is in a position to tell us what he proposes to do in regard to these regulations. I am sure the noble Earl does know that a weight of sixty tons such as is suggested going over a bridge with a locomotive and three trailers is nothing like as hard a strain for the bridge as sixty tons on any one particular vehicle. There must be considerable regard paid to the spread-over as it were of this weight. The noble Earl will not be able to tell us how he intends to frame the regulations. That is a point which must be very carefully considered, otherwise you may prevent the drawing of certain particular articles which can only be taken, as the noble Earl knows, by road transport. Certain things are too big to be taken by some of our railways. I hope that point will be very carefully considered in making the regulations.
Loan PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I can assure the noble Viscount that the point is being carefully considered. It is very material.
On Question, Motion agreed to: Commons Amendment disagreed to and An Amendment agreed to in lieu thereof accordingly.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 22, line 34, leave out ("the specified weight") and insert ("a weight specified in the notice")
Page 22, line 35, leave out ("the specified weight") and insert ("a weight specified in the notice")
Page 22, line 36, leave out ("the specified speed") and insert ("the speed specified in the notice")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 22, line 38, at end insert ("and shall not exceed the maximum weight permitted for the time being for a heavy motorcar drawing a trailer.
"For the purposes of this section the expression 'placed in a proper position' means placed in such a position either on or near the bridge or on or near the road leading to the bridge as to be visible at a reasonable distance from the bridge to the drivers of vehicles approaching it, and the highway authority of any such road shall give to the bridge authority reasonable facilities for placing thereon any such notice as aforesaid.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I move that we agree with the Commons in this Amendment with an Amendment—to leave out "maximum weight permitted for the time being for a heavy motor car drawing a trailer" and to insert "aggregate of the maximum weights permitted for the time being for a heavy locomotive and the trailers drawn thereby when crossing a bridge." In answer to the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, I ought to tell your Lordships that these Amendments have been agreed to by the railway companies so far as their bridges are concerned and they have been the subject of negotiations with other bridge authorities. I beg to move.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Leave out ("maximum weight permitted for the time being for a heavy motor car drawing a trailer") and insert the said new words.—(Earl Russell)
On Question, Amendment to the Commons Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 22, line 39, leave out ("on trailer") and leave out ("or drawn")
Page 22, line 40, leave out from ("bridge") to end of line and insert ("in the case of which a notice has been so placed as aforesaid")
Page 22, line 42, leave out ("or draws") Page 23, line 1, leave out ("or drawn")
Page 22, line 5, after ("section") insert ("weight means weight laden, and")
Page 22, line 12, leave out ("not to be taken") and insert ("he taken not")
Page 22, line 22, leave out ("such") and insert ("vehicle of any such class as aforesaid or a tramcar or trolley")
Page 22, line 23, at end insert ("without prejudice, however, to any civil liability of that person in the case of damage being caused to the bridge")
Page 22, line 28, leave out from ("bear") to the first ("a") in line 29.
Page 22, line 92, after ("order") insert ("and recover summarily as a civil debt from the authority by whom the notice was placed as aforesaid the expenses incurred by him in so doing")
Page 24, line 23, leave out ("by him"),
Clause 26, page 24, line 32, leave out ("propulsion") and insert ("the supply of power for the propu7sion of the vehicle")
Clause 27, page 24, line 39, leave out the second ("motor")
Page 25, line 2, leave out ("or a trailer") line 7, leave out ("or trailer")
line 27, after ("maintaining") insert ("weighbridges or other")
Page 25, line 28, leave out ("motor") leave out ("and trailers")
Page 25, line 30, after ("such") insert ("weighbridge or other")
Page 25, line 38, after ("such") insert ("weighbridge or other")
Clause 28, page 26, line 17, after the first ("the") insert ("reasonable")
Clause 28, page 26, line 27, after ("may") insert ("arrest")
Clause 28, page 26, line 28, leave out ("take into custody")
Clause 28, page 26, line 29, after ("committed") insert ("or of attempting to commit")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these Amendments are consequential, but I may call attention to the fact that the expression "proportion" in line 32, page 24, should be "propulsion." I beg to move that we agree with these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 29, page 26, line 31, leave out ("with")
line 34, leave out ("or (b)") and insert ("he shall be liable, in the case of a first conviction, to a fine not exceeding five pounds, and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.
"(2) If")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, a great deal of interest was taken in penalties in another place, and a difference was made in the penalty for the offence of taking hold of a vehicle for the purposes of being drawn or carried, and a smaller maximum penalty was attached to it. For that reason, it became necessary to redraft the clause so as to separate the offences and have different maximum penalties. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 29, page 26, line 35, after ("road") insert ("or on a parking place provided by a local authority any person otherwise than with lawful authority or reasonable cause")
Clause 30, page 27, line 6, after ("construction") insert ("and equipment")
Clause 30, page 27, line 17, leave out ("and") and after ("sparks") insert ("ashes and grit")
Clause 30, page 27, line 21, leave oat ("as to") and after ("the") insert ("maximum")
Clause 30, page 27, line 23, leave out ("as to")
Clause 30, page 27, line 32, leave out ("one motor vehicle by another") and insert ("or drawing of vehicles by motor vehicles")
Clause 30, page 27, line 38, leave out ("whether") and insert ("either"), and leave out ("elsewhere") and insert ("subject to the consent of the owner of the premises on any premises where the vehicle is")
Page 28, line 2, leave out ("method of using") and insert ("use of")
Page 28, line 4, leave out from ("order") to end of paragraph.
Page 28, line 11, after ("Britain") insert ("and for the dispensing, in the case of any such person, with the requirements of Section five of this Act")
Page 28, line 19, at end insert ("and for facilitating the identification of holders of licences and for providing for the issue of a new licence in the place of a licence lost or defaced on payment of such fee, not exceeding one shilling, as may be prescribed;")
Clause 32, page 28, line 37, leave out from ("licence") ("to") in fine 39.
Clause 32, page 28, line 41, after ("drive") insert ("and which he is not disqualified from driving under this Act")
Page 29, line 7, leave out ("from") and insert ("for"):
Clause 33, page 29, line 22, leave out ("motor")
Clause 34, page 30, line 6, at end insert ("within whose jurisdiction the person aggrieved resides")
Clause 35, page 31, line 6, after ("disqualify") insert ("by virtue of a conviction")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that we agree with the Commons in these Amendments, which are consequential or drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 31, line 19, at end insert:
"(4) This section shall not apply to a vehicle owned by a local authority, a police authority, or the receiver for the Metropolitan Police District, or by a person who has deposited and keeps deposited with the Accountant-General of the Supreme Court for and on behalf of the Supreme Court the sum of fifteen thousand pounds, at any time when the vehicle is being driven by the owner or by a servant of the owner in the course of his employment, or is otherwise subject to the control of the owner.")
Page 31, line 20, leave out from ("to") to end of line 22.
Page 31, line 23, leave out ("nor shall this Part of this Act apply") and insert ("within the meaning of Part I of this Act or")
Page 31, line 29, leave out from ("county") to the first ("the") in line 31 and insert ("county borough or county district")
Page 31, line 31, after ("London") insert ("and the council of any metropolitan borough and includes any joint board or joint committee which is so constituted as to include among its members representatives of any such council")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that we agree with the Commons in these Amendments. The first one is to provide a further means of meeting the requirements of this Part of the Bill. It was provided in this House that a large undertaking which had been in the habit of carrying its own risks could obtain a security bond from its own bank, and words about the London Clearing House were inserted. The London Clearing House, on being consulted, objected to it, as they thought it might place banks in a difficult position. It is, therefore, proposed to provide that an undertaking should not be required to take out an insurance or security if and so long as they themselves could deposit the sum of £15,000 with the Supreme Court. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, I think this proposal was made in this House and I congratulate the Government on having accepted it in another place.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 36, page 32, line 1, leave out ("otherwise than under contract")
Clause 36, page 32, line 15, leave out ("being")
Clause 36, page 32, line 20, after ("or") insert ("getting on to or")
Clause 36, page 32, line 22, at end insert ("or, (iii) any contractual liability")
Clause 36, page 32, line 24, at end insert ("or by the owner of a vehicle in relation to the user of which a security under this Part of this Act is in force, or who has made a deposit under this Part of this Act")
Clause 36, page 32, line 28, after ("insurer") insert ("or such owner")
Clause 36, page 32, line 31, after ("insurer") insert ("or such owner")
Clause 36, page 32, line 34, at end insert:
("For the purposes of this subsection the expression 'hospital' means an institution which provides medical or surgical treatment for in-patients, and the expression 'expenses reasonably incurred' means, in relation to a person who receives treatment in a hospital, an amount for each day such person is maintained in such hospital representing the average daily cost per patient of the maintenance of the hospital and the staff thereof and the maintenance and treatment of the patients therein:
Provided that this subsection shall not apply in any case where a charge has been made by the hospital in respect of such treatment.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that these Amendments be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
LORD LUKE: My Lords, I should like to take this opportunity of saying that the hospitals accept this as it comes back from the other House. I mean the portion of Clause 36 that refers to die hospitals. I would like to thank the Minister of Transport for allowing a free vote on it in another place.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, perhaps I ought to say that the object of these Amendments is to improve the subsection arid make it more applicable in the case of a person who has taken out a security bond or has made a deposit. As it left the House, it was limited to an insurance company. I thank the noble Lord for his kind words, but the Minister of Transport maintained in another place the attitude that I took here, that it was an undesirable provision. We desire, however, to make it workable and it is for that reason I have moved to agree with the Commons in these Amendments.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 37, page 33, line 35, leave out from ("business") to ("and") in line 27, leave out lines 41 and 42.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that these Amendments be agreed to. They are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Stpulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 34, line 11, leave out subsections (3) and (4).
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Amendment be agreed to. Subsections (3) and (4), as they appeared in Clause 37 when the Bill left this House, have now been taken out and made a separate clause, to make the provisions of the clause applicable not only to the deposits by individual insurers but by individual operators.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 39, page 35, line 3, after ("licence") insert ("in respect of a motor vehicle")
Clause 39, page 35, line 5, leave out from ("produce") to end of clause and insert ("such evidence as may be prescribed that either—

"(a) on the date when the licence comes into operation there will be in force the necessary policy of insurance or the necessary security in relation to the user of the vehicle by the applicant or by other persons on his order or with his permission; or

"(b) the vehicle is a vehicle to which the first section contained in this Part of this Act does not apply at any time when it is being driven by the owner thereof, or by a servant of his in the course of his employment, or is otherwise subject to the control of the owner.")

Clause 40, page 35, line 22, after ("convicted") insert ("of an offence"), leave out ("of the offence of failing to produce his certificate") and insert ("by reason only of failure to produce his certificate to the constable")
Clause 40, page 35, line 24, leave out subsection (2).
Clause 40, page 35, line 37, leave out ("report the accident at a police station")
Clause 40, page 35, line 39, leave out ("and there") and insert ("report the accident at a police station or to a police constable and thereupon")
Clause 40, page 35, line 42, after ("convicted") insert ("of an offence")
Clause 40, page 35, line 43, leave out ("of the offence of failing") and insert ("by reason only of failure")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Common in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 36, line 3, at end insert:
("(3) It shall be the duty of the owner of a motor vehicle to give such information as he may be required by or on behalf of a chief officer of police to give for the purpose of determining whether the vehicle was or was not being driven in contravention of Section thirty-five of this Act on any occasion when the driver was required under this section to produce his certificate, and if the owner fails to do so he shall be guilty of an offence.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment. Subsection (2) has been modified and now appears as subsection (3). The modification requires the owners of a motor vehicle to give such information as possible as to whether the vehicle was or was not driven in contravention of Section 35—that is, without being insured—on any occasion, instead of being merely required to give information as regards the driver. In the case of the cover against third party risks, the question is whether the driver was insured or not.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
EARL RUSSELL: I think this will be a convenient moment at which to adjourn, until two o'clock.
[The House adjourned at a quarter past one o'clock and resumed at two o'clock.]

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 41, page 36, line 35, leave out ("by the regulations")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 42, page 37, line 1, leave out ("a") and insert ("an assurance")
Clause 42, page 37, line 1, after ("company") insert ("within the meaning of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909,")
Clause 42, page 37, line 2, leave out ("the Assurance Companies Act, 1909,") and insert ("that Act")
Clause 42, page 37, line 6, leave out paragraph (a) and insert:

"(a) If the company does not also carry on assurance business of some other class the reference in subsection (1) of Section two of that Act to the sum of

849
twenty thousand pounds shall be construed as a reference to the sum of fifteen thousand pounds;

(b) If the company also carries on assurance business of some other class the reference in subsection (4) of the said section two to a sum of twenty thousand pounds shall, as respects the motor vehicle insurance business, be construed as a reference to a sum of fifteen thousand pounds, and, notwithstanding anything in the said Act relieving a company from making a deposit in respect of any class of insurance business where it has made a. deposit in respect of any other class of assurance business, the total sum to be deposited under the said subsection (4) shall in no case be less than thirty-five thousand pounds.")

EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, these Amendments are drafting Amendments in order to make clear the respective obligations of assurance companies and underwriters in respect of deposits. Under the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, the expression "assurance company" includes all persons or bodies of persons corporate or un-incorporate who carry on insurance business in the United Kingdom. The words proposed to be inserted are intended to make it clear that the word "company" has an equally wide significance. The effect of the Amendment is to make it obligatory on every person carrying on motor insurance business to deposit £15,000 in respect of that business in addition to any deposit required to be made in respect of other business. The special provisions of Section 28 (2) of the Act of 1909 in respect of the deposits or securities to be furnished by underwriters will apply in respect of motor insurance business undertaken by such underwriters. The new paragraphs (a) and (b) are also of a drafting character. Their object is to make it clear that a company which carries on motor vehicle insurance business only is to be required to deposit £15,000 only, and that where the company carries on other classes of business an additional deposit of £15,000 is to be made in respect of motor vehicle insurance business.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 42, page 37, line 15, leave out ("thirty-three") and insert ("thirty-two")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, this b; a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede).
On Question, Motion agreed to.
After Clause 42, page 37, insert the following new clause:
Deposits under Part II.
(".—(1) No part of any sum deposited by any person with the Accountant-General of the Supreme Court under Section thirty-five or Section thirty-seven of this Act shall, so long as any liabilities, being such liabilities as are required to be covered by a policy of insurance under this Part of this Act, which have been incurred by him have not been discharged or otherwise provided for, be applicable in discharge of any other liabilities incurred by him.
(2) Any rules made by the Board of Trade under Section two of the Assurance Companies Act, 1909, which apply to deposits made by insurers carrying on motor vehicle insurance business shall, with such necessary modifications and adaptations as the Minister, after consultation with the Lord Chancellor, may prescribe, apply to deposits made with the said Accountant-General under the sections aforesaid.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this clause appeared originally as subsections (3) and (4) of Clause 31. Your Lordships will remember that I mentioned earlier that it was left out there in order to be reproduced as a separate clause.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 43, page 37, line 2.1, at end insert ("or any joint committee which is so constituted as to include among its members representatives of any such council")
Clause 45, page 38, line 14, leave out from ("of") to ("and") in line 15 and insert ("a council to which this section applies")
Clause 45, page 38, line 16, after ("holding") insert (" if he thinks fit,")
Clause 45, page 38, line 21, leave out from ("which") to ("that") in line 22 and insert ("he is satisfied")
Clause 45, page 38, line 21, leave out lines 28 to 31.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 45, page 38, line 32, leave out from ("of") to ("and") in line 36 and insert ("a council to which this section applies or the governing body of any University in receipt of a grant from public moneys")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is an Amendment which I think will be received with some satisfaction. The object of it is to enable a local authority or the governing body of any University in receipt of grants from public sources to apply for an order for regulating the traffic in their districts. That should be very useful in numerous cases, and it will help to improve matters in respect of the great complaints made of traffic in the High Street of Oxford and I think, to some extent, in Cambridge. It does not, I am sorry to say, apply to Eton or Winchester, but it will protect Universities in receipt of public grants.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, may I ask whether before any order is made under this clause an opportunity will be given for other people to be heard besides the local authority or the governing body of the University? That is to say, will an inquiry take place as in the case of, say, the imposition of a ten mile limit?
EARL RUSSELL: Oh, certainly, there will be a full public inquiry at which everybody will be represented.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 45, page 38, line 36, after holding insert (", if he thinks fit,")
Clause 45, page 38, line 37, leave out from ("inquiry") to ("the") in line 39 and insert ("make an order for any of the following purposes:—

"(a) the specification of the routes to be followed by vehicles;

"(b) the prohibition or restriction of the use of specified roads by vehicles of any specified class or description, either generally or during particular hours;

"(c) The prohibition of")

Clause 45, page 38, line 40, leave out ("within the area of the council")
Clause 45, page 38, line 41, at end insert:
("(d) otherwise in relation to the regulation of traffic.
Provided that no order shall be made under this subsection with respect to any road which would have the effect of preventing such access as may be reasonably required for vehicles of any class or description to any premises situated on or adjacent to the road.")
Page 39, line 2, leave out from ("after") to the second ("public") in line 4 and insert ("holding if he thinks fit, a")
Page 39, line 6, leave out line 6 and insert ("(4) Where an order is made under this section")
Page 39, line 8, leave out ("to") and insert ("shall")
Page 39, line 8, leave out ("is prescribed by the order") and insert ("may be prescribed")
Page 39, line 14, after ("uses") insert ("a vehicle, or causes"), leave out ("the use of")
Page 39, line 15, after ("vehicle") insert ("to be used")
LORD PONSONBY OF STIULBREDE: My Lords, these are all drafting and consequential Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 45, page 39, line 16, leave out ("guilty of an offence") and insert ("liable in the case of a first conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is a mere change in penalties.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 39, line 20 at end insert:
("(8) The councils to which this section applies are the councils of counties or county boroughs or of urban districts having a population of over twenty thousand according to the last census for the time being.")
Leave out lines 21 to 23 and insert:
("(9) In the case of the administrative county of London an application under this section may be made by a highway authority as respects any road vested in them.")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 45, page 39, insert the following new clause:
Power of highway authority temporarily to prohibit or restrict traffic on roads.
(".—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, if a highway authority are

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satisfied that traffic on any road for the maintenance of which they are responsible should, by reason of works of repair or reconstruction being required or being in progress on the road, be restricted or prohibited, they may by order restrict or prohibit the use of that road or of any part thereof by vehicles or by vehicles of any particular class or description to such extent and subject to such conditions or exceptions as they may consider necessary.
(2) Subject to the provisions of this section a highway authority shall, not less than seven days before making an order under this section, cause notice of their intention to make the order to be published in one or more newspapers circulating in the district in which the road or part of a road affected by the order is situate, and shall also within a period of seven days after making any such order cause a notice of the making of the order to be published in the like manner.
Every such notice shall contain a statement of the effect of the order and a description of the alternative route or routes available for traffic.
(3) A highway authority, when considering the question of the making of an order under this section, shall have regard to the existence of alternative routes suitable for the traffic which will be affected by the order.
(4) No order made under this section shall, without the approval of the Minister, continue in force for a longer period than three months from the making thereof, and where the Minister gives his approval to an order continuing in force after the expiration of that period, the authority shall give such notice of the Minister's approval as may be directed by him.
(5) So long as any order made under this section is in force, a notice stating the effect of the order, and describing the alternative route or routes available for traffic, shall be kept posted in a conspicuous manner at each end of the part of the road to which the order relates, and at the points at which it will be necessary for vehicles to diverge from the road.
(6) A highway authority may at any time by notice restrict or prohibit temporarily the use of any road or any part of any road by vehicles or by vehicles of any particular class or description where owing to the likelihood of danger to the public or of serious damage to the highway, it appears to them necessary that such restriction or prohibition should come into force without delay.
Any such notice shall describe the alternative route or routes available for traffic, and shall be kept posted in accordance with the provisions of the last preceding subsection, and shall not continuo in force for a longer period than seven days from the date thereof; but, where such a notice has been posted, the authority may before the expiration of that period, proceed to male an order under subsection (1) of this section with respect to the same road or
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part of a road without causing notice of their intention to make such order to be published in any newspaper.
(7) Any person who uses or permits the use of a vehicle in contravention of any restriction or prohibition imposed under this section shall be liable in the case of a first conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds and in the case of a second or subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.
(8) Any person aggrieved by any restriction or prohibition imposed under this section may appeal to the Minister who may either quash the restriction or prohibition or confirm it with or without modifications, and the Minister's decision shall be final and conclusive.
(9) No restrictions or prohibition imposed under this section shall apply to the driving of any tramcar or trolley vehicle in pursuance of the powers of any special Act of Parliament or order having the force of an Act.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this clause is put forward by the County Councils Association. It is necessary sometimes that a road should be closed temporarily for the purposes of repair or sometimes because of an accident, such as an explosion or flood. It is rather a curious thing, but it is extremely doubtful whether a local authority has any power to close a road even for necessary repairs. It is desirable that that ambiguity should be cleared up and that the local authority should be given full powers. The object of this clause is to give them those powers and I think it is agreed to by all concerned.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 46, page 39, line 24, leave out from the beginning to end of line 2 on page 40 and insert:
("(1) Subject to and in conformity with such general or other directions as may be given by the Minister a highway authority may cause or permit traffic signs to be placed on or near any road in their area:
(2) Traffic signs shall be of the prescribed size, colour, and type except where the Minister authorises the erection of a sign of another character:
(3) After the commencement no traffic signs shall be placed any road except under and in with the preceding provisions of this section:
Provided that")
Page 40, line 4, leave out ("signal, direction post, sign or device erected") and insert ("traffic sign")
Page 40, line 5, leave out ("or displayed")
Page 40, line 6, after ("tramway") insert ("light railway or trolley vehicle undertaking any dock undertaking or any harbour undertaking")
Page 40, line 10, leave out from ("which") to ("or") in line 12 and insert ("there is any traffic sign")
Page 40, line 13, leave out ("prescribed,") and insert ("traffic")
leave out ("or signal")
Page 40, line 14, leave out ("or signal is erected or displayed")
Page 40, line 15, leave out from the first ("it") to ("and,") in line 16.
Page 40, line 20, at end insert:
("Provided that the provisions of this subsection shall not apply in the case of any sign or object so long as its retention is expressly authorised by the highway authority.")
Page 40, line 22, leave out ("require") and insert ("cause")
Page 40, line 22, leave out from ("any") to the second ("or") in line 23 and insert ("traffic sign")
Page 40, line 25, leave out ("and if the") and insert:
("(5) A bridge authority shall, if so directed by the Minister, remove, or cause to be removed, any notice in respect of the use of a bridge placed under any Act or Order repealed by this Act, or by any Order under this Act:
(6) If a")
Page 40, line 25, after ("highway") insert ("or bridge")
Page 40, line 26, leave out ("such")
Page 40, line 26, after ("direction") insert ("given under either of the preceding subsections")
Page 40, line 28, leave out ("highway")
Page 40, line 30, after ("highway") insert ("or bridge")
Page 40, line 33, at end insert:
("(8) In tins Part of this Act, the expression 'traffic sign,' includes all signals, warning sign posts, direction posts, signs, or other devices for the guidance or direction of persons using roads; and in this section the expression 'highway authority' includes any person responsible for the maintenance of a road.")
Clause 47, page 40, line 34, leave out from ("constable") to ("is") in line 35.
Clause 47, page 40, line 37, leave out from ("any") in line 40 and insert ("traffic sign being a sign for regulating the movement of traffic or indicating the route to be followed by traffic, has been lawfully placed on or near any road in accordance with the provisions of the last preceding section")
Clause 47, page 40, line 43, leave out ("or other person so authorised")
Page 41, line 1, after ("or") insert ("(b) fails")
Page 41, line 2, leave out ("signal or")
Page 41, line 3, leave out ("aforesaid")
Page 41, Clause 48, page 41, line 7, after ("or") insert ("in")
Page 41, line 9, leave out from ("offence") to end of clause.
Clause 50, page 41, line 24, after ("forestry") insert ("building operations")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, the whole of these Amendments are drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Sulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 50, page 41, insert the following new clause—
Provisions with respect to the transfer of toll bridges and toll roads to local authorities.
(".—(1) Where a person is, under any special Act or charter, authorised to charge tolls in respect of the use of any bridge or road, the council of the county, county borough, or urban district within whose area the bridge or road is situate—

(a) may agree with that person that he shall, upon such terms as may be agreed, transfer to them; or

(b) subject to the provisions of this section, may by written notice to treat require that person to transfer to them either all his property, rights, and obligations under the special Act or charter (being property rights or obligations connected with the bridge or road) or such of them as may be specified in the agreement, or, as the case may be, the notice to treat.

(2) Upon the making of a transfer under the preceding subsection—
(a) the bridge or road shall—

(i) in the case of a transfer to a county council become vested in and repairable by the council as a county bridge or a county road; and

(ii) in the case of a transfer to any other council become vested in and repairable by the council as an ordinary bridge or an ordinary road,

And the provisions of all general enactments relating to bridges and roads shall become applicable to it accordingly;
(b) the right to take tolls and any other property, right or obligation transferred shall vest in and be imposed upon and exerciseable by the council, but a right to take tolls so transferred Shall continue to be exerciseable for such number of years only as may be allowed by the Minister in the particular case.
(3) The consideration to be paid to any person for a compulsory transfer under this section shall, in default of agreement, be determined by an official arbitrator in accordance with the provisions of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, subject, however, to

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the modification that the arbitrator shall have no regard to any increase in the revenue from tolls due to the construction of new bridges or roads, or the improvement of existing bridges or roads, by any highway authority since the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty, and subject to any agreement with respect to the date of transfer the person upon whom a notice to treat has been served under this section shall upon payment to him of the consideration determined in the manner aforesaid transfer to the council all such property, rights, obligations and liabilities vested in or imposed upon him as are required by the notice to treat to be so transferred.
(4) The payment of the consideration for a transfer under this section shall be a purpose for which a council may borrow under the enactments applicable to the council as a highway authority.
(5) A council in whose area part only of a bridge or road is situate shall have in relation to that bridge or road the same powers as they would have had under subsection (1) of this section if the bridge or road had been wholly situate within their area, but shall not exercise those powers except in pursuance of an agreement made under the next succeeding subsection.
(6) Any two or more councils having under either subsection (1) or subsection (5) of this section powers in relation to any bridge or road may, subject to the approval of the Al Minister, enter into agreements with respect to the exercise of those powers by one council on behalf of the other or others of them and with respect to the making of contributions by any of them towards the expenses of any action so taken, and where those powers are exercised in pursuance of any such agreement, the transfer of the bridge or road to be transferred and any other property, rights and obligations shall be made to such council or councils, as may be provided by the agreement.
(7) The provisions of this section with respect to compulsory transfers shall not apply in relation to any bridge or road vested in a statutory dock authority as such or in a statutory harbour authority as such nor in relation to the property in the structure of any bridge vested in a railway company.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment. The original Clause 51 in the Bill, as it left this House empowered local authorities and toll owners to enter into voluntary agreements for the transfer of toll roads and bridges. A Private Member's Bill, the Tolls Bill, in another place, backed by a number of Conservative Members and introduced by a Conservative, conferred upon highway authorities, in addition to the powers of voluntary agreement, powers of compulsory
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acquisition, the terms of transfer, failing agreement, to be settled by arbitrators. That Bill was read a second time in another place without a Division and, after some amendment in Committee, was reported to the House. It was decided to incorporate the effect of that Bill into this Bill, and it now forms Clause 53. This new clause follows substantially the provisions of the Tolls Bill as regards compulsory acquisition. The main differences relate to the procedure to be followed in the case of a toll bridge which lies on the boundary between two highway authorities.
Objection has been taken to the instruction to the arbitrator in subsection (3), that he shall have no regard to any increase in the revenue from tolls due to the construction of new bridges or roads, or the improvement of existing bridges or roads, by any highway authority since January 1, 1920. Your Lordships know, of course, that it obviously must be the case that the value of toll roads and bridges has been enormously increased, owing to the increase of motor traffic, without any exertion or merit on the part of the toll owners, and it seems only just to provide that they should not benefit by improvements to the highway system carried out at the public expense, out of the Road Fund, which have led to an increase in their revenue. That is the reason why this direction to the arbitrator appears in the new clause. I believe that the noble Viscount opposite wishes to raise a point in this connection. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell).
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD VISCOUNT BRENTFORD moved, as an Amendment to the Commons Amendment, to omit from subsection (3) of the Commons new clause the words: "subject, however, to the modification that the arbitrator shall have no regard to any increase in the revenue from tolls due to the construction of new bridges or roads or the improvement of existing bridges or roads by any highway authority since the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, my proposal is to omit the directions to the arbitrator. The directions are, as the noble Earl has said, that the arbitrator shall not have regard to any increase to

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the revenue from tolls due to the construction of new bridges or roads since January 1, 1920. That is to say, we stabilise for all time the toll-paying population that passes over any bridge as that of January 1, 1920. On the face of it the noble Earl's contentions sound to some extent reasonable. New by-passes and so forth have undoubtedly diverted traffic. I submit, in the first place, however, that it is by no means certain—indeed I think it is very unlikely—that all the increase in traffic that occurs on a toll bridge occurs in consequence of a new road or by-pass. There will probably be an increase owing to the gradual growth of traffic.
Let me point out to your Lordships how much the country is indebted to the men who built these toll bridges in years gone by. They were built by private individuals or small companies, and the shares are often owned by small people. It took a very long time before most of these bridges could pay even a moderate dividend. One must therefore look upon these people as benefactors to the public, rather than the reverse, and it seems to me that the noble Earl's arguments are completely destroyed by the fact that the Government are not prepared, as I understand from the debate in another place, to have regard to the fact of a new road or by-pass completely destroying the traffic of a toll bridge or toll road. If it is right that the increase of toll traffic, due to a new bypass, should not be paid for, then it seems to me quite clear that, if a new bypass sweeps away 90 per cent. of the traffic over an old bridge, it is monstrous that the bridge should be bought at a very low price as compared with a neighbouring bridge that may get the additional traffic.
Let me take a quite feasible example of a man or company owning two toll bridges over a river. A new by-pass is built, and the traffic on one bridge increases enormously, while that on the other declines. Under the provisions of this Bill the owner is not allowed to get the rate that he would have got if the first bridge had continued to carry the ordinary traffic which had been carried for the last few years, and at the same time the second bridge is not to get the benefit of the traffic that has been taken away from the first bridge. That seems to me to be quite monstrously unfair. This
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is an old question, which has been argued in this House and in another place over and over again—the question of various kinds of detriment to property—but I suggest to your Lordships that, in this particular case, the provision is grossly unfair.
I think that a much better plan is to leave the matter to the arbitrator, who has power under the Acquisition of Land Act, 1919, a modern Act, to take all questions into consideration, rather than to say quite definitely and distinctly that in the one case he is to rule out any addition which he believes is due to the new by-pass, and in the other he is not to allow for any decrease which has arisen from the same cause. That is such a monstrously cruel injustice that I hope your Lordships will not agree to it. The clause, as a whole, is a valuable one, and I do not wish in any way to object to it. I think it would be a very good thing if toll roads could be got rid of in the interests of the public. No doubt the noble Earl dislikes having to pay a toll as much as I do. But, after all, you must deal fairly with these people, who were looked upon a few years ago as public benefactors. They erected these bridges and, so far as my information goes—I have been in communication with a small association of toll owners—they have got very little profit out of any of these bridges. In the circumstances I hope that your Lordships will remove these words from the clause and allow the whole thing to go to the arbitrator in the ordinary way. I beg to move.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
In line 5 of subsection (3) leave out ("subject, however, to the modification that the arbitrator shall have no regard to any increase in the revenue from tolls due to the construction of new bridges or roads or the improvement of existing bridges or roads by any highway authority since the first day of January, nineteen hundred and twenty.")—(Viscount Brentford.)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the noble Viscount opposite has drawn an interesting picture of the historical toll owner, the benefactor of mankind who erected his tolls and profited little by them, and is now going to be deprived of an unexpected plum that has come his way. I think there is another side of that picture. I do not know whether the noble Viscount knows of it. There

861
is in existence such a thing as an individual (or a private company) who has bought up quite a number of these tolls for quite reasonable sums, and is sitting quietly, enjoying year after year an increasing revenue which he has done nothing to earn or deserve.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: May I ask whether the noble Lord intends to penalise a man who perfectly justifiably bought a toll bridge two years ago, by putting in an ex post facto clause of this kind? His argument is entirely in my favour.
EARL RUSSELL: I suggest that we ought to do what has been done in other cases of this sort of betterment or unearned increment, where men receive large sums which they have done nothing to merit except possessing the foresight to buy up something, and say that the public when it acquires these things shall not be mulcted in public money beyond a reasonable amount. In a case like that, you cannot say that the existing owner of the toll started as a public benefactor, or that he bought the tolls or is running them as a public benefactor. It is seldom the case that any toll bridge is still in the hands of the man who constructed the bridge for the benefit of the public. It is quite possible to argue that you should not really take into account the natural growth of the motor traffic on the road to which the owner of the toll bridges has done nothing to contribute, but which has increased his tolls. The words here, of direction to the arbitrator, are very much narrower than that. They have nothing to do with the natural increase in traffic, but merely say that you shall have no regard to increases in the revenue due to the construction of new bridges or roads, or the improvement of existing bridges or roads, since 1920. 1920 is not so very long ago, and if enormous sums of public money have been spent, which have attracted traffic across a man's toll bridge, it seems to me that the toll owner has done nothing particularly to deserve being rewarded, and that the arbitrator may very well be instructed to leave it out of consideration.
These tolls have to be paid for frequently by the rates of the county which acquires them, and there is no reason
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that I can see for putting upon the ratepayers a burden which is unnecessary. The noble Viscount will see that the condition of your Lordships' House at the moment hardly affords an opportunity for a trial of strength upon this matter, but I should be glad if he could see his way to withdraw his objection to these words, which are not unlike similar words inserted in similar cases, and which go a considerable way to facilitate the acquisition of these toll bridges, and will not deprive a man of a very reasonable reward. There are several ways in which you might effect this. For instance, you might instruct the arbitrator to have regard to the average of the last twelve years. It would not be right to take the greatly swollen tolls of the last year and then multiply them by a number of years.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I have listened carefully to the speech of the noble Earl, and he has not said anything about the decrease. That is a fact to be taken into account. Of course he has made an important suggestion—namely, that the matter be considered of taking the average of the last twelve years. I do not know whether the noble Viscount could come to some arrangement with the Government on that matter.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: I do not want to take an unfair advantage of the present condition of the House, but the noble Earl will see that this is our last opportunity of dealing with this question. Unless we send it back to the House of Commons it is finished. I must, therefore, ask your Lordships, if you agree to pass this clause, to consider some such suggestion either of putting in "decrease", which would make it clear, or taking an average of years. I agree that any great, sudden, wild upleap of tolls ought not to be taken into account, but at the same time any decrease due to the opening of a new by-pass ought not to be left out of account. I think an average of years would be the proper method, and if he will allow me I will strike out these words now, in order to the matter being considered in another place.
EARL RUSSELL: I think the offer made by the noble Viscount is a perfectly fair one. Of course, it is not for me to say, but the debate will be represented to the Minister of Transport, and the

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noble Viscount and his friends will have an opportunity of conferring with him before the matter comes up again in another place. I will not nod oppose the deletion of the words in question.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I confess to not being entirely in agreement with the noble Viscount. I hope the Minister of Transport will not allow anything to be done which will make it more difficult for local authorities to get rid of toll bridges. Therefore, while I do not want to see any injustice done, at the same time I do not want it to be made more difficult for local authorities to get rid of toll bridges.
On Question, Amendment to the Commons Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Commons Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 51, page 4, leave out Clause 51.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 52, page 42, line 40, leave out ("two hundred and fifty") and insert ("five hundred").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: This is merely as to the amount recoverable in the County Court. It is practically drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 53, page 43, line 6, leave out from ("the") to end of clause and insert ("administrative county of London").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHLTLBREDE: Drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 53, page 43, insert the following new clause:
Power of certain authorities as to refuges and subways.
(".The council of an urban district as respects any road in their area (subject,
864
however, in the case of a county road not vested in them, to the consent of the county council) and a highway authority as respects any road vested in them may, for the purpose of protecting traffic along the road from danger or of making the crossing of any road less dangerous to foot passengers, erect, light, maintain, alter and remove place of refuge in the road, and construct, light, maintain, alter, remove and temporarily close subways under the road for the use of foot passengers.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this clause was originally in the Bill. It was a Privilege clause as a matter of fact and went down to the other House in that form. It has, however, been slightly amended so as to make it clear that an urban authority may erect refuges or construct subways on all county roads in its area, and not merely those which are "claimed" under the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1929. The clause as it now stands in this respect conforms to the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1929, and enables local authorities to deal with roads in their area whether they claim them or not.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 53, insert the following new clause:
Power to remove structures from highways.
(".—(1) Where any structure has been erected or set up on a highway otherwise than under or in pursuance of any enactment the highway authority may by notice in writing require the person having control or possession of the structure to remove it within such time as may be specified in the notice.
(2) Any person on whom any notice is served under this section, may, within one month of the service of the notice, appeal to the Minister, and if it is shown to the satisfaction of the Minister that the removal of the structure within the time specified in the notice would cause undue hardship to any person, the Minister may extend the time by such period as he thinks just.
(3) If any structure in respect of which a notice has been served under this section is not removed within the time specified in the notice, the highway authority may themselves remove the structure and recover the expense of so doing summarily as a civil debt from the person having the control or possession of the structure:
Provided that the power of the highway authority under this subsection shall not be exercised until the expiration of

865
one month after the date of the service of the notice, or, if an appeal has been made to the Minister against the notice, until after the appeal has been determined.
(4) A notice under this section may be served either personally or by post.
(5) In this section the expression "structure" includes any machine, pump post or other object of such a nature as to be capable of causing obstruction.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the object of this clause is to provide expeditious means of removal of structures erected on the highway without statutory authority. It does not apply to telegraph poles or tramway poles, or other similar erections in connection with the provision of public facilities, or to anything on the highway in pursuance of statutory authority; but it is intended to cover petrol pumps and other similar obstructions, which there is no necessity to place on the highway and which should properly be confined to private property, and which in fact the local authorities have no power to allow. The clause provides for an appeal to the Minister against the decision in case there is any objection. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause, 54, page 43, line 18, leave out ("including bridges")
Clause, 54, page 43, line 27, after ("roads") insert ("and the construction, lighting, maintenance, alteration and removal of subways under the roads for the use of foot passengers")
LORD PONSONBY or SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are both drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsortby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 54, page 43, line 31 leave out ("vested in that council") and insert:
("(3) Advances may be made out of the Road Fund towards the expenses incurred by any highway authority in the erection of weighbridges or other machines for weighing vehicles, or towards any sum paid by a highway authority to a person in consideration of his allowing a weigh-
866
bridge or other weighing machine to be used for weighing motor vehicles or trailers.
(4) Advances may be made out of the Road Fund towards any expenses incurred by a police authority in the provision and maintenance of vehicles or equipment for use by the police force in connection with the enforcement of this Act.
(5) The provisions of the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909, as amended by any subsequent enactment, shall apply in relation to advances made under subsections (3) and (4) of this section as they apply in relation to advances to a highway authority under Part II. of the said Act.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the scope of the clause has been extended by the addition of subsection (4), which provides that an advance may be made out of the Road Fund towards any expenses incurred by a police authority in the provision and maintenance of vehicles and the equipment for their use in connection with the enforcement of the Act. This is for what are officially called mobile police unions, but what were more familiarly known in another place as "speed cops". The establishment of such police is no doubt very important, and will become increasingly so; and the Minister announced in another place that he had obtained the consent of the Home Office to this course being taken. This clause provides for subventions to that force from the Road Fund, with Treasury consent. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I do not wish in any way to oppose this clause, but I would like to ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill whether it is the intention of the Home Secretary to send round any circulars to police authorities in connection with the policemen detailed for this particular duty. A great deal will depend on whether the man has really had a certain amount of training in the particular duty for which he is told off. He will be very little good unless he does receive some special training, and I dare say the noble Earl could give me an assurance that inexperienced men will not be detailed for this particular job.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, when the Bill was in your Lordships' House I did mention that my right hon. friend the Home Secretary was going to send out a

867
circular to the police in connection with the provisions of this Act generally, and no doubt, either in that circular or in some separate circular, he may deal with the character of these special police. But, of course, the noble Earl knows that it is not the province of the Home Secretary to give orders to the local police; they are under the control of the local authority and the chief constable. But I agree entirely with what the noble Earl says. It is perfectly obvious that if these men are to be of real use they must be men of experience, they must be able to distinguish between what is and what is not dangerous driving, and I have very little doubt that that will be borne in mind. But I will certainly take an opportunity of seeing that it is brought specially to the notice of the Home Secretary.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 55, page 43, line 43, at end insert ("and to provide whenever they shall deem necessary or desirable for the safety or accommodation of ridden horses and driven livestock adequate grass or other margins by the side of the roads under their control")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is the clause which contains a provision that proper footpaths shall be provided when the local authority deems it necessary and desirable. It has now been extended to "adequate grass or other margins by the side of the roads" for the safety and accommodation of ridden horses and driven livestock. I think two members of your Lordships' House asked questions on that point when the Bill was here, and I hope this will give some satisfaction to them. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, as one of the delinquents who asked questions may I say I do not think the noble Earl was quite convinced of the justice of our case, but I am glad to think the Government have made this concession. It will be most popular all over the country in the agricultural districts and with those who are still accustomed to use horses for riding. I must say it is a great concession, and on behalf of my friends who raised this point I thank the Government for having met us so fairly and squarely.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I do not wish in any way to object to this addition. On the contrary, I am very glad it has been made; but I wonder whether the Government would go a little further and insert these words at the end:
"and the highway authority shall in no case take away such footpath or margin where it exists without the prescribed licence of the Minister."
This is a grievance which has come before me personally in a part of the country that I know very well, and I should like to describe exactly what happened in that case. There is a main road running from London to Lewes, and from that main road branches off another road of a similar character, but still of an important character, going to the East-bourne road at a place called Nutley. This secondary road comes away from the Lewes road and curves round, going downhill in order to get on the straight to go through Nutley. Round that curve till recently there was a grass verge, with a ditch in it. It is obviously rather a dangerous road. There is considerable traffic, including, I am sorry to say, a line of omnibuses, which, I think, never ought to have been allowed on a road so small as that. But evidently the foot passenger going along that road has to keep on the inside of the kerb—it is the natural place for him to go—and if there should be two cars passing at the same time as he is on the road he could get on to the bit of grass, if necessary, and so save his life or his limbs.
Quite recently, without any communication to the inhabitants, the road authority has taken away that grass verge. I understand that they have put pipes into the ditch, or something of that kind, and then, instead of restoring the grass for the use of the foot passengers, they have made the roadway right up to the edge of a considerable bank that there is by the side of the road. The result is that there is no kind of refuge for the foot passengers, and it is a serious grievance there—so serious that a petition has been got up, and was signed, I think, by the greater part of the population in that district—signed with great enthusiasm, all protesting against this infringement of their ancient liberties. It is quite true that the traffic on the road is not very great—it is a country place—hut it is as great as on any road

869
in the district, because it is the road which goes through the greater part of the population that exists there, and past the local post office.
I ventured to write to the Ministry or Transport on the subject, and they sent down and made inquiries, and were informed—and I do think it a very unfortunate incident in the whole transaction—they were informed, no doubt on local evidence, that no such thing had occurred, that there had been no extension of the roadway up to the bank at all. Well, that is simply untrue, as any number of people could tell you if you went there and enquired in the locality. No doubt, they enquired from the local surveyor, but it is an indication of the spirit in which these things are approached in the eyes of a road surveyor. The foot passenger has no rights, and is entitled to no protection. All he considers is what some emissary of the local omnibus company has possibly said to him about the desirability of a larger road in order to make it easier for the omnibus traffic.
I think it a very reasonable provision to say that where the local authority desires to take away this privilege from the foot passenger or the horse passenger or livestock, some impartial authority, some body or other at any rate should be there who would review the interests of the whole population, including the live stock owner and the foot passenger, before such a thing was permitted. What I am suggesting is simply that before a diminution in the rights of pedestrians should be allowed there should be a licence obtained from the Ministry. I have said "prescribed" because I notice in the next clause that there is power to prescribe by regulation all the details of a thing of this kind, and, of course, all the necessary details would have to be arranged. I really do not think that this is an unreasonable thing to ask. It is not to meet a theoretical grievance; it is to meet an actual grievance which has occurred within my own knowledge and probably has occurred in a great many other parts of the country.
EARL RUSSELL: It is a great interference with local self-government.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: I do not think so. In many cases you give some kind of appeal from an authority
870
either by a public inquiry or by the action of the Ministry. It is a very common provision to have some protection of that kind, and I feel that in view of this case and the obvious bias that must have existed as shown by the false information which was given to the inspector of the Ministry, this is not an unreasonable thing to ask. I hope that the Government may see their way to put it in at any rate here and see what their advisers think of it when it goes back to another place. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 43, at end of the Commons Amendment insert ("and the highway authority shall in no case take away such footpath or margin where it exists without the proscribed licence of the Minister.")—(Viscount Cecil of Chelwood.)
LORD PONSONBY or SHULBREDE: My Lords, I sympathise very much with the particular case which the noble Viscount has alluded to, but, although I live in the same county as the noble Viscount, I do not know the particular spot he refers to. I very much regret that false information should have been given to him with regard to this particular verge of grass which was taken away from the roadway. My sympathies in these cases in country lanes are entirely with the pedestrian. Although I have driven a car myself for the past sixteen years, I have been a pedestrian since I was two years old, so I feel more strongly on the pedestrian's side. But I do not think that the particular case the noble Viscount has brought forward is common. I do not believe he will find that the verges of the road are taken away in such a fashion as to cause danger in many cases, if in any; whereas, on the verges of the road the grass at the side has very often to be taken for the sake of widening the road.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: Then they ought to provide another footpath.
LORD PONSONBY or SEIULBREDE: In the majority of cases it might not in any way lead to danger or really take away in some cases, perhaps, from the broad margin which there may be at the roadside. I think on the whole it would be impossible to ask that the local authority should be expected in every one of these cases, which would be very numerous indeed, to apply specially to the

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Ministry of Transport. If we had before us many cases where this had been done and had produced a dangerous corner or dangerous road, then it would be different. I think the case the noble Viscount has put forward is a very exceptional one; whereas in the ordinary course of having to cut off a certain amount of grass at the side to broaden the road it happens very frequently. I am afraid we cannot accept the Amendment.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I must confess that I am sorry that the noble Lord opposite is unable to accept my noble friend's Amendment. I had hoped when he told us that his experiences as a pedestrian had ranged over a great many more years than as a motorist he might have had more sympathy with my noble friend. It is clear from what my noble friend has said that this does exist, and he has produced a concrete case in his part of the world which he probably knows better than any of your Lordships. It is not denied that these cases exist elsewhere, and it does not seem to me to be very much to ask that if there is a case where the grass at the side of the road and the footpath are taken away, and there is a real objection to it, before the local authority decides the Ministry should be consulted and, if necessary, appealed to to prevent circumstances arising such as the noble Viscount has described. And I would suggest that as the Amendment has been brought forward only this afternoon—I do not, think it is on the Paper—at any rate it might be inserted now and considered very carefully. Opportunity will occur, of course, in another place for rejecting it, if necessary, and I rather hope it will be possible to give it a little more consideration than has been extended to it.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, like previous speakers I have every sympathy with this Amendment; but what is a footpath? I do not know whether there is any definition as to what a footpath is. Sometimes it is merely a track just about a foot wide at the side of the road. Is it reasonable to expect the Minister to hold an inquiry when the surveyor of the local authority wants to take a foot or two away from the side of the road. I think we are rather in danger of making too much of a particular instance, and I very much hope that,
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while I am sure the attitude of the Ministry of Transport would be quite sympathetic, we shall not bring too much pressure to bear on the Government. If the Ministry have to hold an inquiry into every one of these cases, by how much shall we have to increase the staff of the Ministry? Therefore, I think, we ought not to try to get too much out of one particular instance like this.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I was rather surprised to hear the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, supporting this Amendment, because he knows as much as anybody about local authorities and he knows about their sense of responsibility and the important duties they have to perform. I would ask your Lordships to see what the Amendment suggested is. It is to add to the Commons Amendment the words:
"and the highway authority shall in no case take away such footpath or margin where it exists without the prescribed licence of the Minister."
Really that is a remarkable interference with people who have been in the habit of taking charge of roads for centuries, who have more or less done as they pleased with them and who, after all, are subject to popular election and popular control by the people of their own districts. It is a very large order to say that they shall not even make a bay to deposit stones in without the licence of the Minister, for that would be covered by this Amendment. I confess that I was just a little surprised to hear the noble Earl support this. The noble Viscount, I think, is very often less impressed with the difficulties of local authorities and more impressed with the immediate object that he is pursuing, but I do put it to him that as a mere matter of ordinary administration it is not a reasonable Amendment to make, and I hope that it will not be pressed.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: An appeal to the Ministry is not uncommon.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I do not know whether I am entitled to say anything more, but, perhaps, your Lordships will permit me to say one word. There is no question of holding an inquiry, but I see no reason in the world why before doing 'a thing of this kind the local authority should not

873
send up a statement of what they propose to do, with, if necessary, a small plan attached. It would all have to be arranged by the Ministry and they would be able to make the necessary regulations. It really would be an extremely simple thing to do, and I would say very earnestly that these people have a right to protection. It is all very well to talk about the local authority being an elected authority. The noble Earl knows perfectly well that in cases of this kind it is the surveyor who decides and nobody else, and it is decided very often under pressure from some important people. All these things are done, and there is really no means of control by the machinery of election over things of this kind. You cannot expect an election to turn upon a question whether the verge of a road has or has not been taken away.
EARL RUSSELL: It has often turned on the removal of the parish pump.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: Very likely, but I do not suppose the noble Earl thinks that is a desirable state of things. I must say that I am disappointed at the attitude of the Government in this matter. If they think that this Amendment is right in principle, as I really believe that Lord Ponsonby does, and that it ought to be more carefully surveyed and possibly drafted in a different way, then their right course is to accept it and to see how it can be dealt with. This is a real grievance, and I am sure it could exist in a great many other parts of the country. We are aware of cases where roads have been deprived of their grass verges, to the great injury not only of the safety of the other users of the road, but also of the amenities of the country. I feel rather strongly about this matter and am inclined to press it to a Division.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, my experience is that when footpaths are provided the people do not use them. Therefore, the people in the locality know whether the footpaths are going to be used and can deal with the matter accordingly.
LORD JESSEL: My Lords, I do not think I can support my noble friend Lord Cecil if he presses this to a Division. You really must trust the local authorities. After all, every district is represented by some person and the people of
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the locality can go to the elected representative and make the ordinary representations. If this is carried it is going to involve enormous expense. You will never get any improvement anywhere if every time the local authorities are subject to a right of appeal. Surely you must trust them in tins matter? The clause you have already put in, which the Government have improved, makes it the duty of the local authority to see that there are adequate footpaths if possible, and I should have thought that point is amply covered by the clause the Government inserted and added to this afternoon.
On Question, Amendment to the Commons Amendment negatived.
On Question, Motion agreed to and Commons Amendment agreed to accordingly.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 56, page 4, line 3, leave out ("is to be") and insert ("may")
Clause 56, page 4, line 17, leave out ("drivers") and insert ("riders")
Clause 56, page 4, line 22, leave out from ("vehicles") to ("which") in line 23 and insert ("which have broken down and of the loads carried thereby or of vehicles")
Clause 56, page 4, line 32, leave out from the beginning to ("a") and insert ("(a) Subsection (1) of Section forty-six of this Act shall apply to a county council and to the town council of") line 36, leave out from ("shall") ("a") in line 37 and insert ("apply to") line 37, leave out ("were omitted")
Page 45, line 15, at end insert:
("(e) Section fifty-three of this Act shall have effect as if for any reference to the council of a county borough or urban district there were substituted a reference to the town council of a burgh charged with the maintenance and management of any of the highways therein, and as if paragraph (a) of subsection (2) were omitted therefrom, and on any transfer under the said section of a road or bridge to a county or town council the road or bridge shall become vested in and maintainable by such council as a highway, and the provisions of all general enactments relating to highways shall become applicable accordingly;
(f) The Highways (Scotland) Act, 1771, is hereby repealed.")
Clause 58, page 45, leave out subsection (1), line 31, after ("shilling") insert ("for a single journey")
Page 46, line 1, after ("journeys") insert ("from one or more points specified in advance")
Page 46, line 2, leave out ("specified beforehand") and insert ("so specified") line 7, at end insert ("a")
Page 46, line 12, leave out ("six") and insert ("eight")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments or machinery for adapting the Bill to Scotland. I beg to move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 46, line 17 made leave out ("in pursuance of an offer made to the public")
Page 46, line 25, at end insert:
("Provided that a vehicle used on a special occasion for the conveyance of a private party shall not be deemed to be a vehicle carrying passengers for hire or reward at separate fares by reason only that the members of the party have made separate payments which cover their conveyance by that vehicle on that occasion.")
Page 46, line 30, leave out ("in his employment")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is an alteration of a definition of the public service vehicle. The words "in pursuance of an offer made to the public" have been omitted and the new proviso added aims at preventing the improper use of contract carriers. Attention has been called to a case where big clubs are being formed and the membership of the club have the privilege of taking a contract, but the use of contract carriages for genuine private parties is, of course, not to be forbidden. I beg to move that this House agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 46, line 39, leave out from ("Engand") to ("and") in line 40.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I beg to move that we agree with this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 47, line 6, leave out ("creating a new traffic area") and insert ("increasing or reducing the number of traffic areas")
Page 47, line 8 leave out from ("forthwith") to end of the subsection and insert ("but shall not have effect until it has
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lain upon the Table of each House of Parliament for a period of not less than twenty-eight days during which the House has sat, and, if either House during that period presents an Address to His Majesty praying that the order may be annulled, the order shall not come into force, but without prejudice to the making of a new order")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is an alteration of the subsection to provide that an order which alters the boundaries of a traffic area shall not come into effect until it has been twenty-eight days on the Table of the House. I beg to move that we agree with these Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 60, page 47, line 23, leave out ("this Part of")
Clause 60, page 47, line 33, leave out ("any") and insert ("the")
Clause 60, page 47, line 36, leave out ("within the traffic area")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 60, page 48, line 21, leave out ("term of three years") and insert ("such term not exceeding three years as the Minister may determine at the time of his appointment")
Clause 60, page 48, line 43, leave out ("within that area")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBBEDE: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments, and I move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 49, line 7, at end insert:
("(12) A person shall be disqualified from being appointed or being a Commissioner so long as he is a member of the Commons House of Parliament")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this follows a precedent in the Electricity (Supply) Act. It is clearly undesirable for almost every reason that a member of

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the House of Commons should be a Commissioner. I move that we agree with this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 61, page 49, line 18, leave out from ("be") to end of subsection, and insert ("reheard and determined by all Commissioners".)
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is an Amendment with regard to what is to happen if two Commissioners are sitting. It was originally provided that if there was a difference of opinion the matter should be determined by the decision of a third Commissioner without his hearing the case. That was thought undesirable and it has now been altered so that the effect will be if the two Commissioners who are sitting differ, then the matter must be re-heard by three Commissioners. Your Lordships will agree that that is obviously desirable. I move that we agree with this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 49, line 22, leave out ("proposed to be")
Page 49, line 23, leave out from ("Act") to end of clause.
Clause 63, page 49, line 28, after ("to") insert ("produce to the Commissioners alt registers kept by the local authority relating to the grant or refusal by them before the commencement of this Act of licences to ply for hire, and to")
Clause 63, page 49, line 29, leave out from such") to ("as") in line 31, and insert. ("other information relating to the matters aforesaid")
Clause 63, page 49, line 33, leave out from ("Act") to end of clause.
Clause 64, page 50, line 6, leave out ("an express carriage or as")
Clause 64, page 50, line 6, after the second ("carriage") insert ("or subject to any condition attached to his road service licence, as an express carriage").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are all drafting Amendments. I move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lard Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 64, page 50, line 17, at end insert:
("(2) A public service vehicle licence may be refused or, if it has already been granted, may at any time be suspended or revoked by the commissioners by whom it was granted if, having regard to the conduct of the applicant or holder of the licence or to the manner in which the vehicle is being used, it appears to them that he is not a fit person to hold such a licence.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the effect of this is to give the Commissioners power to suspend or revoke a licence if the conduct of the holder of the licence or the way in which the vehicle has been used shows he is not a fit person. It gives an appeal to the Minister by people who are aggrieved. I move that we agree.
Moved, That this House with the Commons in the said Amend ment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 50, line 18, leave out ("public service")
Clause 65, page 51, line 14, leave out ("condition") and insert ("conditions")
Clause 65, page 51, line 39, after ("type") insert ("vehicle")
Clause 67, page 53, line 12, after ("or") insert ("fixed")
Clause 68, page 53, line 18, after ("a") insert ("certifying officer or")
Clause 68, page 53, line 23, leave out ("such") and insert ("the officer or")
Clause 68, page 53, line 30, after the first ("the") insert ("officer or")
Clause 68, page 53, line 32, leave out ("any such") and insert ("a certifying officer or public service vehicle")
Clause 68, page 53, line 40, after ("any") insert ("certifying officer or")
Clause 68, page 53, line 41, after ("such") insert ("officer or")
Clause 69, page 54, line 14, at the beginning insert:
("(1) Subject to the provisions of this section the Commissioners may grant to any person applying therefor a licence (in this Act referred to as a road service licence') to provide such a road service as may be specified therein; and')
Page 54, line 15, leave out from ("carriage") to end of subsection and insert ("except under such a licence.")
"(2) For the purposes of this section a vehicle used as a stage carriage, or as an express carriage, shall not be deemed to be so used under a road-service licence unless it is so used by the holder of the licence and in accordance with the provisions thereof.")
Page 54, line 19, leave out ("unless they are satisfied") and insert ("if it appears to them from the particulars furnished in pursuance of subsection (5) of this section")
Page 54, line 21, leave out ("will not") and insert ("are likely to")
Page 55, line 1, leave out from ("local") to end of subsection and insert ("authority in whose area any of the route or any part of any of the routes is situate")
Page 55, line 3, after ("to") insert ("the provisions of this section and to")
LORD PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments and I move that we agree with them.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 55, line 9, leave out paragraph (a).
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this paragraph (a) is left out because there is a Fair Wages Clause put in later in the Bill. I move that we agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 55, line 22, after ("up") insert ("or shall not be set down")
Page 55, line 23, leave out ("neither") and insert ("not"), and after second ("or") insert "shall not be")
Page 55, line 27, leave out ("any conditions") and insert ("the conditions").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I move that we agree with these Amendments, which are drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 55, line 30, at end insert ("(a) particulars of the type or types of vehicle to be used; and").
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is necessary to enable the Commissioners to decide whether the vehicles proposed are suitable for the road. I beg to move that we agree.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 55, line 34, after ("other") insert ("such")
Page 55, line 36, at end insert ("as the Commissioners may require").
Page 56, line 3, after ("may,") insert ("subject to the provisions of this section,")
Page 56, line 6, leave out ("Provided that,") and insert ("(7) In any case").
Clause 69, page 56, line 7, leave out ("of Parliament.")
Clause 69, line 8, after the second ("service,") insert ("nothing in this section shall be taken to authorise")
Clause 69, line 9, leave out ("shall not have power") line 10, leave out ("nor,") and insert ("or")
Clause 69, line 16, after ("authorised,") insert ("under Part V. of this Act or")
Clause 69, line 18, leave out ("of Parliament") line 25, after ("or") insert ("being the holder of a road service licence")
Clause 69, line 27, leave out from ("to") to ("he") in line 28, and insert ("that licence")
Clause 69, line 35, after ("county") insert ("county")
Clause 69, line 35, leave out ("urban district or rural") and insert ("or county")
Clause 70, page 57, line 1, leave out ("that other authority,") and insert ("the Commissioners by whom the licence is backed")
Clause 70, page 57, line 3, leave out ("the Commissioners of that other traffic area,") and insert ("them")
Clause 70, page 57, line 14, at end, insert:
("Subject to the modification that references in the said provisions to the Commissioners by whom the licence was granted shall be construed as references to the Commissioners by whom the licence was backed.")
Clause 71, page 57, line 18, leave out ("or the backing of a road service licence")
Clause 71, page 57, line 20, leave out ("or backed")
Clause 71, page 57, line 22, leave out ("or backed")
Clause 71, page 57, line 24, leave out ("or the backing of such a licence")
Clause 71, page 57, line 29, leave out ("or backing")
Clause 71, page 57, line 30, at end insert:
("(2) The Commissioners, on revoking or suspending a road service licence, shall send notice thereof to every chief officer of police and to every local authority in whose district or areas the service to which such licence relates was provided.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, all these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 73, page 58, line 5, leave out ("written or verbal, with respect to,") and insert ("affecting in any material respect") line 6, after ("provision") insert ("within the area of the Commissioners")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 73, page 58, line 8, at end, insert ("whether within or without the area")
"(b) of any financial interest (whether as a partner or shareholder or as a result of any loan, guarantee, or other financial transaction) which any other person providing passenger transport facilities has in the business of the applicant or holder of the licence, and in the case of the applicant or holder who is a company of any right which any such person as aforesaid has to nominate any director of the company;
"(c) of any such interest or right as aforesaid which the applicant or holder has in the business of any other person who provides passenger transport facilities within the area of the Commissioners.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment with an Amendment—namely, in line 7, after "facilities," insert "or controlling (either solely or in conjunction with any other person) the business of any person who provides such facilities." The object of the other Amendments was that the clause should not require the disclosure of unimportant verbal under standings. This provides for the disclosure by an applicant for a road service licence of any interest he has in any other business for providing such transport facilities. The object is to cover holding companies, which are largely in existence in this business, and to see that they are brought into the provisions of the clause which otherwise, as drafted, they might escape.
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Line 7, after ("facilities") insert ("or controlling (either solely or in conjunction with any other person) the business of any person who provides such facilities").—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Amendment to the Commons Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 58, line 14, leave out ("continued") and insert ("continuing")
Clause 74, page 58, leave out ("the passing of this Act") and insert ("the first day of January nineteen hundred and thirty")
Clause 76, page 59, line 20, leave out ("backing")
Clause 77, page 59, line 27, after ("Act") insert ("not being a road service licence")
Clause 77, page 59, line 28, after ("year") insert ("from the date on which it is expressed to take effect.
"(2) The Minister may prescribe to the dates in the year on which road service licences shall expire and a road service licence shall, unless previously revoked, continue in force up till and including that one of the prescribed dates which occurs next before the expiration of one year from the date on which the licence is expressed to take effect or by till and including such earlier date, being one of the prescribed dates, as the Commissioners may at the time of the granting of the licence for special reasons determine")
Clause 77, page 59, line 29, leave out from ("that") to ("if") in line 31.
Clause 77, page 59, line 33, after ("for") insert ("the grant of")
Clause 77, page 59, line 34, leave out from ("licence") to ("the") in line 36 and insert ("in substitution for an existing road service licence held by the applicant or for the backing of any such new licence")
Clause 77, page 59, line 38, leave out ("for the new road service licence")
Clause 78, page 60, line 8, leave out ("the grant or backing of a")
Clause 78, page 60, line 4, leave out ("or back")
Clause 78, page 60, line 15, leave out ("or backing")
Clause 78, page 60, line 16, leave out ("or endorsement")
Clause 78, page 60, line 17, after ("condition") insert ("or by any variation of the conditions")
Clause 78, page 60, line 19, after ("a") insert ("public service vehicle licence or")
Clause 78, page 60, line 21, leave out ("or the revocation of the hacking thereof") and after ("Commissioners") insert ("or by any variation of the conditions attached thereto")
Clause 78, page 60, line 24, leave out the second ("The") and insert ("a")
Clause 78, page 60, line 36, after ("fit") insert ("(including an order revoking a licence)")
Clause 78, page 60, line 39, leave out ("the applicant for a new licence, who") and insert ("a person who has applied for a new licence in substitution for a licence held by him and in force")
Clause 78, page 60, line 40, leave out ("is the holder of a licence")
Page 61, line 7, at end insert:
("(4) Where the holder of any road service licence appeals to the Minister against any variation of the conditions attached to that licence that variation shall not have effect until the appeal has been disposed of.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move that this House doth agree.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 79, page 61, line 13, after ("may") insert ("by notice in writing to the Commissioners require them to reconsider the matter, and shall on the reconsideration be entitled to be heard either personally or by his representative. Any person who is so aggrieved as aforesaid or who is dissatisfied with the decision of the Commissioners on the reconsideration of the matter may")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, the effect of these words is that a person who has already a right of appeal to petty sessions is given the opportunity of asking the Commissioners for a re-hearing and of attending it either personally or by his representatives. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 81, page 62, line 21, after ("whole") insert ("of such")
Clause 82, page 62, line 2, after ("contravenes") insert ("or fails to comply with")
Clause 82, page 62, line 3, leave out from the first ("be") to ("to") in line 4 and insert ("liable")
Clause 84, page 63, line 34, after ("such") insert ("salaries or")
Clause 86, page 64, line 25, leave out ("of this Part")
Clause 87, page 64, line 32, leave out ("and stopping places")
Clause 87, page 64, line 33, after ("the") insert ("places at which such vehicles may stop for a longer time than is necessary for the taking up and setting down of passengers and as to the") and leave out ("dropping")
Clause 87, page 64, line 37, leave out ("for the use of, or")
Clause 87, page 64, line 39, after ("order") insert ("appoint that parking place as a station for such vehicles;
(b) by regulation")
Page 65, line 4, leave out ("order") and insert ("regulation")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, these are also drafting Amendments. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 65, line 4, at end insert a new subsection:
("(3) Where a parking place is appointed under this section as a station for public service vehicles the local authority may

"(a) with the consent of the Minister do all such things as are necessary to adapt the parking place for use as a station for public service vehicles, and in particular provide and maintain waiting-rooms, ticket offices and lavatories and other similar accommodation in connection therewith and

"(b) make reasonable charges for the use of, or let on hire to any person, any accommodation so provided; and

"(c) make regulations as to the use of any such accommodation")

EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this extends the provisions of subsection (2) so as to enable a local authority to equip and maintain stations for public service vehicles and to provide waiting rooms, ticket offices, lavatories and so on, and make Charges for their use. This business is now very large in some towns, and in some cases the omnibus people do not provide sufficient premises and perhaps, where there are several companies, it is more desirable that the local authority should provide them, have control of them, and make charges. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 65, line 6, after ("(1)") insert ("or subsection (2)")
Page 65, line 16, after ("(1)") insert ("or subsection (2)")
Page 65, line 24, after ("(1)") insert ("or subsection (2)")
Page 65, line 33, after ("(1)") insert ("or subsection (2)")
Page 65, line 36, leave out from ("in") to ("subsection") in line 39.
Page 66, line 4, at end insert:
("(9) The purposes of this section shall be purposes for which a local authority may borrow in the case of a county council under the Local Government Act, 1888, and in the case of a borough or district council under and subject to the provisions of the Public Health Acts, 1875 to 1926")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 87, page 66, insert the following new clause:
Power of Minister to modify restrictions on user of roads by public service vehicles.
(".—(1) In any case where the running of public service vehicles on a road is restricted or prohibited by a local Act or order the council of the county borough or of the county district in which the road or any part thereof is situate or any local authority or person providing or proposing to provide a service of public service vehicles on that road, or any part thereof may apply to the Minister for an order modifying or revoking the restrictions or prohibition.
(2) The Minister, on receiving an application under this section, shall, unless he is of opinion that it is made without reasonable cause, direct a public inquiry to be held into the subject-matter of the application, and shall consider the report made to him by the person holding such inquiry.
Not less than one month's notice of the inquiry shall be given to the council of the county borough or county district in which the road is situate, to the applicants, where the application is not made by that authority, and to every local authority or person in whose favour the restrictions or prohibition appear to the Minister to have been imposed or who, in the opinion of the Minister, are affected by the application.
(3) If as a result of the inquiry the Minister is satisfied that it is in the public interest that the restrictions or prohibition should be modified or revoked he may make an order modifying or revoking them, and may by such order modify or revoke to such extent as appears to him to be equitable in the circumstances any obligations imposed upon ally person in connection with such restrictions or prohibition.
(4) Every order made under this section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament, and shall not come into force until it has been approved by both Houses")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment. The Bill, as originally introduced here, contained a proviso removing any restriction, either in this or any other Act, to any order the Commissioners might make in the issue of road service licences to any person applying for them. It was intended to enable them to disregard the
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protective provisions of certain Acts of Parliament by which certain private or municipal undertakings have a virtual monopoly. The clause was struck out in this House on the grounds that the Commissioners ought not to be able to override those provisions. The new clause provides that, where any such restrictive provisions exist, any person proposing to provide or providing a service may apply to the Minister for an order modifying or revoking the restrictions. The Minister must hold an inquiry into the matter and, if, as a result of the inquiry, he is satisfied that the restrictions should be modified or revoked, he may make an order doing so and may modify any obligations imposed on any one under the restriction. The order is to have an affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: In substance this Amendment is the same as the clause which was thrown out by this House by a substantial majority. It gives the Minister powers to over-ride Acts of Parliament under which tramways, omnibus companies and other undertakings have been given protection. Under the Cheltenham Bill and sixteen similar Bills, as long as they carry out their obligations lawfully, this protection is given. New it is sought to take the protection away from them and to give power to the Minister to alter Private Acts, which is always a bad thing. It is subject, of course, to the approval of Parliament, but we know What that is in these cases. I oppose the clause and I hope your Lordships will support me.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 88, page 66, line 13, leave out ("vehicle") and insert ("vehicles").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Ponsonhy of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 88, page 66, insert the following new clause:—
Wages and conditions of employment of persons employed in connection with public service vehicles.
("(1) The wages paid by the holder of any road-service licence to persons employed by him in connection with the operation of a public service vehicle and the conditions of their employment shall not be less favourable to then the wages which would be payable and the conditions which would have to be observed under a contract which complied with the requirement of any resolution of the House of Commons for the time being in force applicable to contracts with Government departments.
(2) Any organisation representative of the persons engaged in the road transport industry may make representations to the Commissioners to Use effect that the wages paid to, or the conditions of employment of, any persons employed by the holder of any road-service licence are not in accordance with the requirements of the preceding subsection, and if the matter in dispute is not otherwise disposed of it shall be referred by the Minister of Labour to the Industrial Court for settlement.
(3) If it is decided by the Industrial Court that ally person has been guilty of a breach of the provisions of this section he shall be liable to be dealt with in all respects as if he had failed to comply with a condition attached to his road service licence.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this clause provides that it shall be a condition attaching to any road service licence that the person operating the service shall pay wages and observe conditions of employment not less favourable than those laid down by any Resolution of the House of Commons for the time, being in force. That, I believe, is the technical form of what is generally known as the Fair Wages Clause. Subsection (2) provides that any organisation representative of the workpeople may make representations to the Commissioners that the wages or the conditions of employment do not conform with the Fair Wages Resolution and if the matter is not otherwise disposed of it is to be referred by the Minister of Labour to the Industrial Court for settlement. This is a clause which it is thought desirable to put in, and not without reason, because in this industry there are, I am afraid, some cases in which very inadequate wages are paid at present to the people who work in it. I think that probably I should not be going beyond the truth if I said that most of
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the large and important employers in the industry would be perfectly willing to have a clause of this sort in the Bill.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, this is really a very important clause. It is a clause importing into the carrying on of ordinary commercial undertakings the Fair Wages Clause which has been established for some time past in regard to Government contracts. This is an extension far beyond anything that I ever heard of while I was in the other House, and I know of no Act of Parliament which has enforced the Fair Wages Clause on a private undertaking. It is quite true that these undertakings run public service vehicles and carry members of the public as passengers, but you might apply exactly the same argument to every kind of business. Every cinema proprietor invites the public into his building. Therefore you might say he should have a Fair Wages Clause there. You might apply it to every shop. Every shopkeeper when he opens his shop invites the public into that shop, and therefore you might suggest with quite as much reason as applies to this clause that every shopkeeper should have a Fair Wages Clause between himself and his employees. Really there is no earthly reason why, if this clause is passed in its present form, you should not have a universal Fair Wages Clause.
EARL RUSSELL: Why not?
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: Now the noble Lord is giving the whole case. "Why Not?" That is, of course, the noble Earl's view.
EARL RUSSELL: Does the noble Viscount want an unfair wages clause?
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: No, but I do not want to put in a clause which would fetter employers and employed in the means of bargaining which they have had for centuries past. I suggest that the noble Earl, by introducing such a clause into this Bill, which has nothing to do with Socialistic ideas or practice—if he will forgive me for saying so; I do not want to be heated in my observations—is doing something which is in no way justified. So far we have carried through this Bill with the sole desire on both sides to do what is best and wisest in the

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interests of the travelling public, and with the object of getting a real codification of motor transport law on the Statute Book. I do appeal to the noble Earl not to attempt to force this clause upon us. It was not in the original Bill. There was a paragraph in the Bill which he somewhat wickedly left out a few minutes ago dealing with conditions of labour.
EARL RUSSELL: Yes, there was one omitted.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: It was in Clause 69, subsection (3) (a). That dealt with the conditions under which persons are employed and laid down that they should not be such as to endanger the safety of the public or impair the efficiency of the service. Your Lordships passed that clause in this House six months ago. That, I think, is a reasonable condition, that the conditions of service must be such as not to interfere with the safety of the public; but the present clause goes far beyond that. I am very sorry that I should have to raise this matter at a time when the Government have not carried out their first duty of keeping a House for the purpose of passing this very important measure. But at the same time I feel that we cannot leave it in the Bill. I hope your Lordships will refuse to pass this clause, and as I do not want the noble Earl to be in difficulty because of having allowed his cohorts to leave so early, I would make the offer that we are ready to discuss with the Government any amendment of the clause.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I have not got cohorts to call upon, as the noble Viscount seems to think. Some of our exiguous number of supporters have gone away, but may I say that in this matter the noble Viscount almost seems to be plus royalists que le roi? He objects to this Fair Wages Clause and talks about a Socialist matter being introduced into this non-contentious Bill as if he had never heard of it before. The Fair Wages Clause has been enforced by the House of Commons for a quarter of a century or more in regard to contracts made by Governments and it is not a new idea. He says it has never been applied to private work, but a similar provision was put into the Housing Act in 1924, in relation
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not to work done by the Government but to work done by everybody connected with housing under the Housing Act.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: If the noble Earl will forgive me for interrupting him, I think it should be remembered that there were Government grants in that case. If the Government make grants they are entitled to put in any clause they like. There is no Government grant here.
EARL RUSSELL: There was a Government grant in that clause and the same of course is true of the other precedent—the Sugar Beet Act, 1925. There was a Government grant there. But if there is no Government grant given direct to omnibus services, there is something very much like it in the Road Fund contribution to the roads on which they run. That seems very near a Government grant. The real question is, however, whether you should, or should not, have any restrictions at all upon the wages paid to these people. I think he agrees that there should be some restriction on the wages that are paid, but he does not approve of this form of imposing it. If we are going to have any restriction at all, is it not better to have one that has been in operation for a very long time and with which all parties are familiar, such as the Fair Wages Resolution of the House of Commons? I hardly know any other way in which you could do it successfully. The difficulty of inserting any other description is that it is hard to know what it means. The Fair Wages Resolution, I believe, amounts to saying that the wages are usual and proper among good employers.
When I said that the noble Viscount rather stood alone in this, I would remind him that this clause was passed in another place without any division of opinion among members of the other House. I do not think that the noble Viscount, if I may say so respectfully, is very wise to oppose it in this House when it has received unanimous approval in another place. His action is almost certain to be misunderstood. I am quits sure that he does not mean in any way to attack favourable and reasonable payment of workers. We must also remember that the public safety is involved in this matter. These drivers are in the same position as engine-

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drivers, although they are not members of a very strong trade union, like the National Union of Railwaymen.
EARL STANHOPE: The Transport Workers' Union.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: They have their trade union.
EARL RUSSELL: There is a trade union for some portion of the industry, the London omnibuses, for instance, but there is none that by any means covers all the public services in the country. It is desirable that the public should be protected against underpaid men being employed, quite apart from any other argument. As the noble Viscount truly says, we are not in a position even to take a Division this afternoon, but I hope that he and his friends will see their way not to press their opposition, which is, I think, almost certain to be misunderstood.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not think the noble Earl realises the kind of request that he has made to your Lordships. I do not want to arrogate to ourselves any more credit than we deserve, but it must be admitted that, in allowing the Government to pass these very important provisions in the circumstances in which the House is placed, we are making a very considerable concession.
EARL RUSSELL: Hear, hear!
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: We have allowed a large amount of legislation to go through with very inadequate consideration. I have no doubt that noble Lords who have been able to apply their minds to the subject have been able to consider these points, but the vast mass of your Lordships are evidently debarred by the conditions of the season and the length of the Session from giving them the attention which they deserve. In these dying days of the Session, in a Bill that has been thoroughly considered in your Lordships' House, the Government come back months afterwards with a totally new provision which violates one of the main principles of private enterprise, and one which has been made the subject of repeated legislation, and they say that in this case they propose to extend the Fair Wages Clause to private enterprise.
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It is impossible, I think, for your Lordships to agree in those circumstances. How can we allow a great change in public policy to be established in such conditions as are before your Lordships at this moment? It is not that I wish the wages of the workers to be less than they ought to be. For my part, if I could only persuade everybody to work as hard as they can, I wish them to have the highest wages possible. But to ask your Lordships to agree, in these circumstances, to this great departure from the previous precedents of legislation is a serious matter. I venture to think that all the noble Earl's precedents broke down. They were not really material to the actual point in this case. I am sorry that the decision should take place in a House as small as this, but I think the noble Earl may be well assured that if, instead of the members now present, there were a House of three hundred noble Lords, the decision would be just the same.
EARL RUSSELL: I am quite sure of that.
On Question, Motion negatived, and Commons Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 89, page 66, line 31, leave out ("of fitness").
Page 67, line 11, leave out ("securing of the") and at end insert ("or disposal")
Page 67, line 16, at end insert:—
"(1) For providing that any provisions of this Part of this Act shall in relation to public service vehicles brought into Great Britain for the purpose of carrying persons making only a temporary stay therein, have effect, subject to such modifications and adaptations as may be prescribed.")
Clause 90, page 67, line 27, leave out ("or").
Clause 90, page 67, line 27, after ("police") insert ("or the council of a county, county borough, or county district").
Clause 91, page 67, line 35, leave out from ("force") to end of clause, and insert ("for such period and with such effect for the purposes of this Part of this Act as may be provided by the order").
Clause 91, line 37, at end insert:—
("(2) The Minister may revoke, vary, or amend an order made under this section.")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, all these Amendments are drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments. —(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 93, page 68, leave out Clause 93 and insert a new clause:—
Provisions with respect to the Metropolitan traffic area.
Clause 94, page 69, leave out Clause 94 and insert a new clause:—
Special provisions with respect to the City of London and the Metropolitan police district.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, your Lordships will notice that it is proposed to leave out Clauses 93 and 94 of the Bill, as it left you, and to insert two new clauses. The object is to make special provision for traffic in the Metropolitan Police district. There is a considerable change in this respect. It is now proposed that there should be constituted a Metropolitan traffic area consisting of the Metropolitan Police district and the City of London, and that one Commissioner shall be appointed for that area, in distinction from the three Commissioners appointed for the ordinary traffic areas. The clauses have been agreed with the Commissioner of Police, the Home Secretary and other persons concerned. As your Lordships will see, they are very long and complicated. The special duty of the Traffic Commissioner in London will be to issue road service licences for express carriage services—that is, motor coach services—in the Metropolitan area. These services are rapidly increasing in number, and they are practically under no form of control at present.
It is proposed that the control of the omnibuses should remain, as now, with the police, and that the police shall continue to inspect and license the public service vehicles, since they have the necessary staff, premises, equipment and experience and there is no reason to interfere with them. The object of the Traffic Commissioner is to co-ordinate that traffic which at present is not under any regulation and with which the Commissioner of Police has not very much power to deal. The provisions are complicated because, as your Lordships will appreciate, this is in a sense neither one system nor the other. It is not the simple system of Traffic Commissioners
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that you have in the country, nor is it control by the Commissioner of Police at Scotland Yard, with all the powers of a Traffic Commissioner. It is a sort of mixture of the two systems, to allow for the two classes of service that have to be dealt with, and it is at the moment the best solution that can be arrived at. I think it has satisfied all those concerned with the matter, and I hope your Lordships will see your way to agree to these new clauses being substituted for the two old clauses which have been omitted.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, before we pass from this I would like to ask one or two questions. First of all with regard to the Commissioner. Is it intended that the Commissioner should be exactly the same class of man as the other Commissioners right throughout the country, or necessarily a nominee of Scotland Yard? Then, what will be the position of the Commissioner vis-a-vis the London Traffic Advisory Committee? Will his functions interfere with their jurisdiction? Does he have to consult with them? I believe he has to consult with the Commissioner of Police, but what sort of liaison is going to be set up between the Commissioner and the London Traffic Advisory Committee? Then I would like to know whether in the power supposed to be given to him he is going to have the power to say where the stopping places and parking places of all the various long distance motor coach services are to be, and whether it is possible for the Commissioner to fix stopping places outside the central area, adjacent to other means of transport, like the Underground Railway stations.
EARL RUSSELL: The Commissioner, of course, is appointed in exactly the same way as other Commissioners, by the Minister of Transport. Whether he will fix stopping places I cannot at the moment say, but, of course, it is perfectly obvious that even if he had the technical power to fix stopping places he would not do it without consultation with the Commissioner of Police, on whom is the primary duty. His power does not extend outside the Metropolitan Police area, and in fact the duty must remain

895
with the Commissioner of Police, because he has to regulate the traffic. With regard to the London Traffic Advisory Committee, they exist for the purpose of advising the Minister. They are, what they are stated to be, an advisory Committee, and the Commissioner will not come in conflict with them in any way.
EARL HOWE: There is one other question. With regard to the various classes of traffic using the streets, will the Commissioner have dictatorial powers over London traffic? Will he be able to say to horse-drawn vehicles that they are not to ply in London streets between certain hours?
EARL RUSSELL: No, those powers are possessed by the Minister of Transport, if he thinks fit to exercise them.
LORD JESSEL: I know that the London Traffic Advisory Committee is only an advisory Committee, but the Commissioner of Police always does send recommendations to them, and asks their opinion. Would the new Commissioner do the same? Is there any contact between them at all?
EARL RUSSELL: All these bodies keep in contact, and naturally anybody would be glad to have the advice of the London Traffic Advisory Committee.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Cause 95, page 70, line 35, at beginning, insert ("In the application of Section sixty-two.")
Page 71, line 1, after the second ("of,") invert ("Section sixty-five and")
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 95, page 71, line 4, at end, insert:—
"(d) The provisions of subsections (4), (5), (6), and (8) of Section eighty-nine shall have effect subject to the provisions of subsection (11) of Section one hundred and nineteen of this Act;
(c) In the application of Section ninety a reference to the council of a county or burgh shall be substituted for any reference to the local authority of a county borough or county district.")
Amendment to the Commons Amendment moved—
Line 7, leave out ("local authority") and insert ("council").—[Earl Russell.]
On Question, Amendment to the Commons Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment, as amended.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
After Clause 95, insert a new Part V (Omnibuses):
Power to run omnibuses.
Provisions with respect to consents to be granted by Traffic Commissioners under this Part.
Further provision as to omnibuses.
Fares and charges.
Working and other agreements.
Accounts.
Expenses and borrowing.
Interpretation.
Application to Scotland.
Extent of this Part of Act.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is the new Part V. I explained this at the beginning, and unless any noble Lord desires further information I prefer to move formally.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 96, page 71, line 7, after ("made") insert ("by the Minister").
Clause 96, page 71, line 15, leave out ("new regulations") and insert ("a new regulation").
Clause 96, page 71, line 21, leave out ("regulations") and insert ("regulation").
Clause 96, page 71, line 21, after ("made") insert ("by the Minister").
Clause 97, page 71, line 34, after ("lends") insert ("to").
Clause 97, page 71, line 38, leave out ("within the meaning of") and insert ("under").
Page 72, line 4, leave out ("with or without hard labour").
Page 72, line 5, leave out ("twelve months") and insert ("two years").
Page 72, line 7, leave out ("three") and insert ("four").
Page 72, line 23, leave out ("fifty") and insert ("one hundred").
Page 72, line 33, leave out ("previously") and insert ("the document has been previously returned to him or he has previously been").
Clause 98, page 73, line 11, leave out subsection (3).
Clause 98, page 73, line 26, after ("required") insert ("aforesaid").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, these are all drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 100, page 74, line 7, at end insert ("and for the purposes of this subsection expenses incurred in disseminating knowledge or otherwise informing the minds of the people, with a view to promoting safety on roads, may be treated as expenses incurred in the administration of this Act").
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this Amendment will enable the Minister to subscribe from the Road Fund for leaflets and pamphlets and things of that sort, which may be distributed, possibly even leaflets for school-children with a view to preventing fatal accidents on the road.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I cannot help thinking that this is rather a novel proposal, and not much has been said about it. I have every sympathy with it, but are we not rather overlapping the functions of the National Safety First Council? They already spend a certain amount of money doing the same thing as is proposed in this case, and I am wondering whether we are really going to finance the Safety First Council. It seems a rather novel proposal, even if it is desirable. I suppose that everything depends upon the sort of knowledge disseminated and how it is done, and we have not been given very much in the way of enlightenment on that point cannot help thinking that this is going a rather long way from the usual objects for which this money is spent.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I think the noble Earl cannot be familiar with the practice of the Ministry of Health, which distributes quite a considerable amount of printed matter with a view of
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assisting the health of the public and preventing, disease. The Minister of Transport merely does the same thing with a view of preventing accidents on the road. It is not suggested that any private body should be financed, however meritorious.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
After Clause 100, insert a new clause:—
Compensation for existing officers.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is the new clause for compensating existing officers of a local authority who find themselves displaced owing to the Traffic Commissioners' taking over some of the duties that were formerly performed by the police. It is a usual clause, and I think that the officers of local authorities have agreed it with the Minister. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Leave out Clause 101 and insert as a new clause: —
Application of fines and fees under Part I.
("All fines imposed in respect of offences under this Act or the regulations made thereunder and all sums received by a licensing authority by way of fees for licences under Part I of this Act shall be paid into the Exchequer in the same manner respectively as penalties and forfeitures recovered under or in pursuance of and duties levied under the Roads Act, 1920, and in accordance with such directions as may be contained with respect to such penalties, forfeitures, and duties in any Order in Council for the time being in force under that Act and any sums paid into the Exchequer under this section shall, for the purposes of Section two of the Roads Act, 1920, he deemed to have been paid into the Exchequer under that Act."
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is the Privilege clause that was taken out before the Bill left your Lordships' House as to the destination of the fines in respect of offences. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Inland Revenue licence for motor-car drivers.
"The definition of 'male servant' in subsection (3) of Section nineteen of the

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Revenue Act, 1869, as amended by Section five of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1876, and Section ten of the Finance Act, 1921, shall be constructed as if a person employed to drive a motor car were included in that definition.")
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this is a reproduction of a clause which was in the Motor Car Act, 1903, and has been in existence since then. At that time this was a new kind of male servant that did not come within the description contemplated by the old Act, and so it was inserted in the Act of 1903. Of course, its proper place, no doubt, is a Finance Bill. It is put in here because it is desired to repeal in the Schedules the whole of the 1903 Act and to re-enact its provisions. I think your Lordships will regard it as more convenient. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 102, page 75, leave out subsections (2) and (3) and insert:—
("(2) Any expenses incurred by a town or county council under this Act shall be defrayed out of such rate leviable by the council and payable by owners and occupiers in equal proportions as the council may determine.
(3) A county or a town council shall have power to borrow such sums as they may require for the purpose of the payment of the consideration for a transfer under Section fifty-three of this Act or for the purposes of Part V or of Section one hundred and nineteen of this Act or for the purpose of the erection, or of making a contribution towards the erection, in pursuance of Section twenty-seven, of any machine for weighing motor vehicles and trailers, and any sum so borrowed shall be repaid within such period as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State after consultation with the Minister.
(4) Except where otherwise expressly provided the expression 'highway authority' means a county council or the town council of a burgh charged with the maintenance and management of any of the highways therein.")
Page 75, line 27, at end insert ("and as if for any reference to a court of summary jurisdiction there were substituted a reference to the sheriff.")
Page 75, line 27, at end insert:
("(6) For the purposes of Section one hundred and fifteen of and the Fourth Schedule to this Act the expression 'local authority ' shall mean a county or town council."
Page 76, line 13, at end insert:
("It shall be lawful to convict a person of a contravention of Section forty-nine of this Act on the evidence of one witness.")
Page 78, line 11, leave out ("for the use of")
Page 78, line 16, after ("under") insert ("the foregoing provisions of")
Page 78, line 18, at end insert:
("(9) Nothing in this section shall authorise the execution of any works on, over, or under tidal lands below high-water mark of ordinary spring tides except in accordance with such plans and sections and subject to such restrictions and regulations as previous to such works being commenced have been approved by the Board of Trade in writing under the hand of one of the secretaries or assistant secretaries of the Board of Trade.
(10) Where in pursuance of the powers conferred by the foregoing provisions of this section a local authority provide a parking place which may be used by public service vehicles the local authority may, if it thinks fit, by order appoint that parking place as a station for such vehicles, and where a parking place is so appointed the local authority may—

(a) with the consent of the Minister do all such things as are necessary to adapt the parking place for use as a station for public service vehicles and, in particular, provide and maintain waiting rooms, ticket offices, and lavatories and other similar accommodation in connection therewith; and

(b) make reasonable charges for the use of, or let on hire to any person, any accommodation so provided; and

(c) make regulations as to the use of any such accommodation.

(11) The provisions of subsection (4), (5), (6), and (8) of Section eighty-nine of this Act shall apply to any order under the foregoing subsection of this section in like manner as they apply to an order under subsection (2) of that section.")
Clause 104, page 78, line 27, at end insert ("'Public service vehicle' means a motor vehicle used for carrying passengers for hire or reward other than a vehicle which is a contract carriage within the meaning of this Act adapted to carry less than eight passengers or a tramcar or a trolley vehicle.").
Page 79, line 2, at end insert ("'Fares' includes sums payable in respect of a contract ticket or a season ticket")
Page 79, line 3, at end insert ("'Forestry' includes the felling of trees and haulage thereof")
Page 79, line 4, leave out ("public").
Page 79, line 6, at end insert:
("'Highway authority,' in relation to any roads, means the authority (being either the council of a county, the council of a county borough, the council of an urban district, the Common Council of the City

901
of London, or the council of a Metropolitan Borough) which is responsible for the maintenance of the road.")
Leave out lines 7 and 8.
Page 79, line 18, leave out from ("and,") to end of line 22, and insert ("for the purpose of proceedings for an offence in connection with any such vehicle against any person other than the driver of the vehicle, the person nominated on that behalf by the department in whose service the vehicle is used shall be deemed to be the person actually responsible unless it is shown to the satisfaction of the court that the driver only was responsible."
Page 79, line 20, after (0 years ") insert (" of age ")
Page 79, line 33, after ("vehicles") insert ("owned by the Admiralty, the War Department, or the Air Ministry, and")
Page 79, line 34, after ("purposes") insert ("or in the case of vehicles so used")
Clause 105, page 80, line 4, leave out front ("Act") to ("any") in line 5 and insert ("(including any local Act passed at any time in the present Session of Parliament as confers or imposes on any person any power, right or obligation Which by)")
Clause 105, page 80, line 6, leave out ("are") and insert ("or by this Act (otherwise than by Part V thereof is conferred or imposed on any person is")
Clause 105, page 80, line 6, leave out from ("repealed") to end of subsection.
Clause 105, page 80, line 10, leave out from the beginning to ("nothing") in line 11 and insert ("Provided that")
Clause 105, page 80, line 12, leave out ("or licences granted or certificates issued") and insert ("by the Minister")
Clause 105, page 80, line 14, after ("repealed") insert ("or any licences granted under the Motor Car Act, 1903.")
Clause 105, page 80, line 14, after ("regulation") insert ("or")
Clause 105, page 80, line 15, leave out ("or certificate")
Clause 105, page 80, line 15, leave out ("issued") and insert ("granted")
Clause 105, page 80, line 16, at end insert ("subject, however, to the following modifications and qualifications")
Clause 105, page 80, line 17, leave out ("Provided that")
Page 80, line 44, at end insert ("and any expressions in any orders or regulations made under any other repealed enactments shall bear the same meaning as they bore immediately before the commencement of this Act").
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, we now come to the end of the Bill, not counting the Schedules. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
First Schedule, page 82, line 14, after ("not") insert ("a heavy motor car or")
First Schedule, page 82, line 16, after ("is") insert ("a heavy motor car or is")
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: my Lords, these are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, that this house doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
First Schedule, page 82, line 27, at end insert ("and
(b) Heavy motor cars, constructed or adapted for the conveyance of horses and their attendants and used solely for that purpose, if all the wheels are fitted with pneumatic tyres - - ").
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, this Amendment provides that the maximum speed for this class of vehicles shall be thirty miles an hour if the vehicles are fitted with pneumatic tyres. The conveyance of racehorses is becoming more general, and it is desirable that such vehicles should have the same speed limit as motor coaches. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Russell.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Second Schedule, page 84, leave out lines 7 to 29 and insert:—
("2. If in the case of any application the Minister determines that a public inquiry shall be held, the council making the application shall publish notice of the inquiry in such newspaper or newspapers on such number of days as the Minister may direct, and also in the case of an application under subsection (1) of the said Section forty-six, in the London Gazette if the road to which the application relates is situate in England, and in the Edinburgh Gazette if the road to which the application relates is situate in Scotland.
A notice for the purposes of this paragraph shall be in such form and shall contain such particulars as may be prescribed.")
Leave out lines 90 to 43.
Second Schedule, page 87, line 46, at end insert:—

("Metropolitan Traffic Area.)

The Metropolitan Police District and the City of London.")

Page 88, after the Third Schedule insert a new Schedule:—

FOURTH SCHEDULE.
Provisions as to the Determination and Payment of Compensation to Officers.
Fourth Schedule, page 83, line 18, at end insert:—

("2&3 Will. 4. c. 120.

The Stage Carriage Act, 1832.

The whole Act so far as it relates to public service vehicles.

3&4 Will. 4. c. 48.

The London Hackney Carriages Act, 1833.

The whole Act so far as it relates to public service vehicles.

Fourth Schedule, page 83, line 24, leave out from ("vehicles") to end of line 28.
Fourth Schedule, page 83, line 29, column 3, leave out from beginning to end of line 34 and insert ("The whole Act so far as it relates to public service vehicles")
Fourth Schedule, page 83, line 39, column 3, leave out ("to which Part IV of this Act applies").
Fourth Schedule, page 83, line 40, at end insert:—

("13 & 14 Vict. C. 7.

The London Hacknev Carriage Act, 1850.

The whole Act so far as it relates to public service vehicles.

16 & 17 Vict. C. 33.

The London Hackney Carriage Act,1853.

The whole Act so far as it relates to public service vehicles.

16 & 17 Vict. C. 127.

The London Hackney Carriage (No. 2) Act, 1853.

The whole Act so far as it relates to public service vehicles")

Page 89, line 9, column 3, at end insert ("so far as it relates to public service vehicles")
Page 89, line 26, column 3, leave out ("to Which Part IV of this Act applies")
Page 89, line 36, column leave out ("to which Part IV of this Act applies")
Page 89, line 44, column 3, leave out ("to which Part IV of this Act applies")
Page 90, line 3, column 3 leave out ("except Section thirteen")
Page 90, line 4, at end insert:—

("7 Edw. 7. c. 53.

The public Health Acts Amendment Act, 1907.

Section seventy-eight."

Page 90, line 5, column 3, at end insert ("so far as it relates to public service vehicles")
Page 90, line 10, column 3, leave out ("to which Part IV of this Act applies")
Page 90, line 23, column 3, leave out ("to which Part IV of this Act applies")
LORD PONSONBY or SHULBREDE: My Lords, the Amendments to the Second Schedule and the Amendments to the Fourth Schedule are consequential on new clauses. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
EARL HOWE: My Lords, before we pass completely away from this Bill, may I ask whether the noble Earl in charge of it can tell us what will be the appointed day for bringing the Bill into force?
LORD PONSONBY or SHULBREDE: My Lords, that has not yet been finally decided. The Minister of Transport is answering a Question in another place on Wednesday, and will give the date of the appointed day then.
A Committee appointed to prepare Reasons to be offered to the Commons for disagreeing to certain of the Commons Amendments: Committee to meet forthwith.
Report from the Committee of the Reasons to be offered to the Commons, read and agreed to; and a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons returning the Bill with the Reasons.

HOUSING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Local authority may declare unhealthy area to be clearance area]:
LORD MARLEY LORD MARLEY moved, in subsection (1), after "inhabitants", to insert "of the area." The noble Lord said: This is a verbal Amendment.
Amendment moved⁁
Page 2, line 3, after ("inhabitants") insert ("of the area").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [Clearance Orders]:
LORD MARLEY: There are three drafting and clearing up Amendments on this clause. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 4, line 12, leave out ("parties") and insert ("owners")
Page 4, line 13, leave out ("parties") and insert ("owners")
Page 4, line 14, leave out ("as shall be nominated") and insert ("nominated on the application of the outhority or any of the owners").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 [Treatment of clearance area]:
Loan MARLEY: The first Amendment of this clause is drafting, and the second consequential.
Amendments moved—
Page 4, line 29, after ("shall") insert ("as soon as may be cause every building thereon to be vacated and")
Page 4, line 32, after ("operations") insert ("shall").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Local authority may declare unhealthy area to be improvement area]:
LORD MARLEY: There is a drafting Amendment here also.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, lines 8 and 9, leave out ("repair, demolition or closing as the circumstances may require") and insert ("execution of works on or the demolition or closing").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 9 agreed to.
Clause 10 [Provisions as to purchase of land]:
LORD MARLEY: There is a drafting Amendment here also.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 2, leave out ("for the purposes of") and insert ("under").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 11 [Validity and date of operation of clearance orders and compulsory purchase orders]:
LORD MARLEY: The next Amendment is inserted to make this clause follow the similar clause in the English Bill. It was moved and carried by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, during the debate on that Bill. It is virtually a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 11, leave out from ("Sederunt") to ("that") in line 18, and insert "so however, that the application shall be dealt with in a summary manner,
906
and where such application is duly made: the court—

"(i) may by interim order suspend the operation of the order either generally or in so far as it affects any property of the applicant until the final determination of the proceedings; and

"(ii) if satisfied, upon the hearing of the application."—(Lord Marley.)

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 12 and 13 agreed to.
Clause 14 [Power of local authority to order repair of insanitary house]:
LORD MARLEY: This is a drafting Amendment, and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, lines 8 to 9, leave out ("can be carried out at a reasonable expense and"). —(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15 agreed to.
Clause 16 [Power of local authority to order demolition or closing of insanitary house]:
LORD MARLEY: This is a manuscript Amendment which is really only drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 31, leave out from ("make") to ("a") in line 33.—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MARLEY: This is also a manuscript Amendment, and is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 41, after ("vacated") insert ("and shall serve the order upon every person upon whom they would be required by subsection (1) of this section to servo a notice issued by them under that subsection").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 17 to 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 [Periodical revision of scale of contribution for the purposes of subsequent rehousing schemes]:
LORD MARLEY: This is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 1, leave out ("whom") and insert ("whose displacement").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25, as a amended, agreed to.
Clause 26 agreed to.
Clause 27:
Recovery of possession of buildings subject to clearance, demolition or closing order.
(2) Any expenses incurred by a local authority under this section in obtaining possession of any building or house or part thereof may be recovered by them from the owner of the building or house in a summary manner but a local authority shall not be entitled to recover any expenses under this subsection unless the owner has failed to make within a reasonable time a summary application for removal and ejection to the sheriff, or having made such an application has failed to take all steps necessary to have the application disposed of within a reasonable time.
THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW moved, in subsection (2), after "subsection", to insert "(a) in the case of premises included in a clearance order which are not specified therein as being unfit for human habitation or dangerous or injurious to health, or (b) in the case of any other premises." The noble Marquess said: I understand that the Amendment as printed on the Paper is not unacceptable to His Majesty's Government. I think it explains itself, and therefore I will not trouble your Lordships further. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 6, after ("subsection") insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Linlithgow.)
LORD MARLEY: We are quite prepared to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
CLAUSE 28 [Duty of local authority to have regard to amenities of locality, etc.]:
LORD MARLEY: This is an Amendment which follows the English clause. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 35, leave out ("natural"). —(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: After Clause 28 there is Lord Marley's proposed new clause on the Paper and there is a clause in manuscript in the name of the Earl of Lauderdale.
LORD MARLEY LORD MARLEY moved, after Clause 28, to insert the following new clause:—
Power of sheriff to determine lease where premises demolished.
"—(1) Where any premises in respect of which a clearance order or a demolition order made under this Act has become operative form the subject matter of a lease, either the landlord or the tenant or any other person deriving right thereunder may apply to the sheriff within whose jurisdiction the premises are situate for an order determining the lease.
(2) Upon any such application as aforesaid the sheriff, after giving to any subtenant or other person whom he considers to be interested in the matter an opportunity of being heard, may, if he thinks fit, order that the lease shall be determined, either unconditionally or subject to such terms and conditions (including conditions with respect to the payment of money by any party to the proceedings to any other party thereto by way of compensation or damages or otherwise) as he may think it just and equitable to impose, regard being had to the respective rights, obligations and liabilities of the parties under the lease and all the other circumstances of the case: provided that the sheriff shall not be entitled to order any payment to be made by the landlord to the tenant in respect of the lease of a dwelling-house.
(3) In this section the expression lease includes a sub-lease and any tenancy or agreement for a lease or sub-lease and tacit relocation following on a lease."
The noble Lord said: This proposed new clause explains itself. It says that the sheriff may, if he thinks fit, order that a lease may be determined. That is to say, we do not want an outstanding lease to stand in the way of the operation of these clearance schemes and, therefore, this new clause is proposed. In that connection there has been considerable discussion with regard to a manuscript Amendment and an agreement has been reached whereby we have included the following words at the end of subsection (2) of the new clause—
"provided that the sheriff shall not be entitled to order any payment to be made by the landlord to the tenant in respect of the lease of a dwelling-house."
That manuscript Amendment is in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale. We have come to an agreement about it, and I trust that the clause with the addition will be accepted by your Lordships. I beg to move.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I understand that Lord Marley moves it in the amended form, with the proviso?
LORD MARLEY: Yes.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 28, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Marley.)
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: I thank the Minister in charge of the Bill for accepting this Amendment and for meeting us in this matter.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 29 to 31 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW moved, after Clause 31, to insert the following new clause—
Certificate of execution of works.
.—(1) It shall be competent for a local authority to issue to the owner of any dwelling-house occupied by persons of the working classes a certificate that works of reconditioning, repair, or reconstruction have been executed to their satisfaction, and to fix in the said certificate a period of not less than two or more than five years, after which the condition of the dwelling-house shall be further reviewed.
(2) If such dwelling-house is compulsorily closed, demolished, or purchased during the period of currency of the said certificate, otherwise than for some disrepair or sanitary defect which was not in existence at the time the certificate was granted and which renders the dwelling-house injurious or dangerous to health, compensation shall be assessed in accordance with subsection (3) of Section twelve of this Act."
The noble Marquess said: The new clause which stands on the Paper in my name explains itself. It is important to many owners in Scotland, and I am certain that the Government and the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will agree that it is extremely important in this matter that owners throughout Scotland, when they are good owners and carry out their responsibilities and duties, should feel that they are not to be penalised under this Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 36, insert the said new clause.—(The Marquess of Linlithgow.)
LORD MARLEY: I feel a great deal of sympathy with the intention of the Amendment, but I would suggest to the noble Marquess who moved it that in point of fact the owner who makes a house fit for human habitation is fully protected in the Bill as it stands. A house which is properly repaired will remain fit for a very long time, and should last for many years if the work is properly done. A fit house will always get the market value. We want to avoid the jerry builder gaining under this
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clause. I suggest that under the proposed new clause a man who slaps some paint over the damaged part of a house and generally paints over dirt and worn out materials might be able to gain a certificate. We do not desire, and no one of your Lordships would desire, to protect the sham repairer or the jerry building repairer. I venture to suggest that, perhaps, the noble Marquess would accept the position as it stands and with- draw his Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW: I confess to some disappointment that the Government will not accept this new clause. As the noble Lord in charge of this Bill is aware, a clause of this nature was moved in another place boy my hon. friend Major Elliot. Various points were made against that clause by the spokesman of the Government, and I have sought and I think I have succeeded in meeting every single one of those points of criticism. In view, however, of the noble Lord's explanation, I am not prepared to take the Amendment to a Division, and I ask leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.
Clause 34 [Amendment of s. 51 of principal Act]:
LORD MARLEY LORD MARLEY moved to insert at the end of the clause:—
"(2) The proviso to section fifty-one of the principal Act shall have effect as if for the words forms part of any park garden or pleasure ground or is otherwise required for the amenity or convenience of any house' there were substituted the words forms part of any park garden or pleasure ground occupied together with and required for the amenity or convenience of any house'."
The noble Lord said: This insertion is made to follow the English Bill. It was asked for by the London County Council. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 29, at end insert the said subsection.—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35 [Provisions with respect to official representations]:
LORD MARLEY: This and the following Amendment in my name are drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 30, after ("of") insert ("this or").
Page 32, line 10, at end insert ("of the authority").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 36 [Power of Department to enforce exercise of powers by local authorities]:
Loan MARLEY: My Lords, the two Amendments in my name upon this clause are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 32, line 36, after ("under") insert ("this or").
Page 33, line 25, after ("under") insert ("this or").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 37:
Complaint to Department by tenant or occupier with regard to water supply, etc.
37. If the tenant or occupier of a dwelling-house is aggrieved by any decision of a local authority with respect to the provision of a water supply or a water closet for the house or the execution of works necessary to render the house fit for human habitation he may, in any case where no appeal to the sheriff has been taken against such decision, complain to the Department who may cause a local inquiry to be held, and if as a result of such inquiry they are of opinion that the local authority have not required the provision of such water supply or water closet or the execution of such works as they should have required, the Department may make an order rendering exercisable by themselves such powers of the local authority in the matter as may be specified in their order and any such order may contain such directions as appear necessary with regard to any notice given by the local authority relating to the house.
THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW moved, after the first "closet," to insert "or where this is not practicable, an earth closet." The noble Marquess said: There are circumstances in which it extremely difficult to arrange for a water closet for a dwelling of this nature. The difficulties may arise through lack of fall in the ground, and a faulty water closet is a far greater menace to health than some other suitable arrangement. I very much hope that the Government will agree to this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line 29, after ("closet") insert ("or where this is not practicable, an earth closet").—(The Marquess of Linlithgow.)
LORD MARLEY: The Government would prefer the words in the subsequent Amendment standing in my name to those in the Amendment of the noble Marquess. It is substantially the same thing, but we rather prefer the words that I have put down, and I hope the noble Marquess will accept them.
THE MARQUESS OF LINLITHGOW: I am prepared to accept the Government Amendment, and beg leave to withdraw mine.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments moved—
Page 33, line 29, after ("closet") insert ("or earth closet").
Page 33, line 27, after ("closet") insert ("or earth closet").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 38 agreed to.
Clause 39 [Power of Department to withhold contributions in event of default]:
LORD MARLEY: The Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 40, after ("this") insert ("or the principal").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 40 to 47 agreed to.
Clause 48:
Interpretation.
48.—(1) For the purposes of this Act and of the principal Act, unless the context otherwise requires—
the expression "disrepair" includes deficiency in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls, except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to the wilful default or neglect of the occupants of the house, and is not likely to injure or endanger their health; and
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON moved, in subsection (1), in the definition of "disrepair," to leave out all words after "includes" and to insert "such deficiency in respect of internal painting and papering or distempering of walls as is likely to injure or endanger the health of the occu

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pants of the house, except in so far as any such deficiency is attributable to the default or neglect of the said occupants." The noble Lord said: In this Amendment the proposed new definition of "disrepair" is intended to make it clear that decorative painting and papering are excluded. The definition was inserted in the Bill on the Report stage in another place, and some concern was felt that the definition might be interpreted to include decorative work. Mr. MacRobert therefore moved an Amendment in another place which was supported by Sir John Gilmour, to add the words "which renders the house unfit for human habitation" after the word "walls" in line 16 on page 77 of the Bill. The Lord Advocate replied that it was never intended to include decorative work, and that he did not think the word "disrepair" did cover such work. He was possibly right.
The word "disrepair" first occurs in line 15 on page 1 of the Bill, and the expression used is as follows: "dwelling-houses are by reason of disrepair or sanitary defects unfit for human habitation." The context therefore makes it clear that the disrepair must make the house unfit for human habitation. In the definition itself, however, without the context, this is not so. The definition might be referred to by itself, however, in a later Act, and it is for this reason that I am suggesting that the definition should be in accordance with my Amendment. The deficiency must be such as to be a source of danger to the health of the inhabitants. I am of the opinion that if the clause is altered in accordance with my Amendment there will be no ambiguity as to what is meant either now or in some later Act, and I hope the Government, therefore, can see their way to accept this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 14, leave out from ("includes") in line 14 to ("and") in line 20 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Fairfax of Cameron.)
LORD MARLEY: The Amendment as moved would prevent the Government from doing one thing which they are very anxious to do, and that is to include bad papering or painting or bad distempering as one element in the reasons for a house being unfit for human
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habitation, and this Amendment, I am advised, would prevent us from considering bad painting, bad papering or bad distempering as even an element to be taken into account when we are considering whether a house is unfit for human habitation or not. Therefore I am bound to resist the Amendment as it appears upon the Paper, out I think there is a general feeling that there should be some modification of the clause as printed, and, therefore, if the House would agree to leave this matter for discussion so as to bring it into line with possible Amendments in the English Bill, it would be advisable. We could then get one definition which would be the same in both Bills. I think perhaps it would be the wisest course if your Lordships would consent to that, and I suggest we should leave the matter like that.
LORD LAMINGTON: I rather hope my noble friend behind me will press his Amendment. No reason is given why bad papering or bad distempering would be injurious to health. It seems to me ridiculous to suggest such a thing. "Bad painting" is a very elastic term. I hope the noble Lord will abide by his Amendment.
LORD FAIRFAX OF CAMERON: If the noble Lord, Lord Marley, would allow us to put the Amendment in now and establish the principle which has been established already in the English Bill, I think that would be the best course. We should then be able to discuss the matter with him between now and Report stage. We would like to get the principle into the Bill to-day if we can.
LORD MARLEY: I do not feel I can resist the suggestion of the noble Lord, and so I propose to accept it under those conditions—that we shall bring the two into agreement, and meet the general position indicated by the noble Lord in his Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MARLEY: The next Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 22, after ("or") insert ("of").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 48, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 49 [Amendment of principal Act., etc.]:
LORD MARLEY: The remaining Amendments to the Bill are drafting Amendments.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 2, leave out ("repair") and insert ("execution of works on or the").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 49, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 50 [Repeals]:
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 38, leave out ("has been made").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 50, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule agreed to.
Second Schedule [Compulsory purchase orders]:
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 9, leave out ("sub-paragraph (ii)") and insert ("sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii)").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Third Schedule agreed to.
Fourth Schedule [Minor and Consequential Amendments of the principal Act]:
Amendments moved—
Page 47, line 21, leave out ("repairs") and insert ("works")
Page 47, line 31, leave out ("repairs") and in-Sort ("works")
Page 47, line 34, leave out ("repairs") and insert ("works").—(Lord Marley.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would like to ask the Govern-
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ment about the next stage of the Bill. It appears from what the noble Lord said just now that an effort is to be made to assimilate many of the provisions of the Scottish Bill to the English Bill. The form of the English Bill will not be finally decided until Monday next when the Third Reading is taken. It will, therefore, be almost impossible to take the Report Stage of the Scottish Bill until we know the form the English Bill is going to take. I would, suggest, therefore, that the Report Stage of the Scottish Bill should be postponed until Tuesday so as to give us time to see how the English Bill emerges.
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I do not think the idea was to assimilate the Scottish Bill to the English Bill. The Scottish Bill is a far better Bill. A good many of these assimilations will be matters for discussion and agreement. Perhaps I might refer the matter to my noble friend the Leader of the House and ask him to consider whether this matter should be taken on Tuesday instead of Monday?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: As to which Bill should be assimilated to which Bill, that is a delicate matter on which I would not like to enter, but it is not sufficient to say that where assimilation is to take place that can be done by agreement. I am obliged to the noble Lord for his promise to convey the message I have ventured to give him to the Leader of the House.

SEA FISHERIES REGULATION (EXPENSES) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
House adjourned at a quarter past four o'clock.