Lords Sitting of 2 July 1930

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Ker (M. Lothian)—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.

PRIVATE BILLS.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, the Motion with reference to Standing Orders that appears in my name on the Paper deals with a very small point regarding the manner in which consents to Estate Bills are signified to your Lordships. I think that the proposals here made will work quite as efficiently as the present system, and more conveniently. Unless your Lordships desire that I should explain this small change at length, I will satisfy myself by moving that this Motion be agreed to.
Moved, That the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills be amended as follows:—
163. After ("aforesaid") insert ("the consent of")
Leave out ("consent thereto before") and insert ("be proved to the satisfaction of")
166 and 167. Leave out the Orders.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to and ordered accordingly.

SOUTHEND-ON-SEA CORPORATION BILL.

  SOUTH YORKSHIRE AND DERBY SHIRE GAS BILL.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands upon the Paper in my name regarding two Bills. I think there are public reasons justifying this Motion.
  Moved, That the Order made on the 25th day of March last, "That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time
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  after Tuesday the 24th of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2ª.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bills read 2ª accordingly.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (IMPROVEMENTS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2ª.
BRIGHTON AND HOVE GAS BILL.
Read 3ª, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (GOOLE AND OLDHAM) BILL.
  MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HENDON RURAL) BILL.

    MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (KIDDERMINSTER AND LLANELLY) BILL.
    THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD MARLEY): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands upon the Paper in my name.
    Moved, That the Order made on the 25th day of March last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday, the 24th of. June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2ª.—(Lord Marley.)
    On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bills read 2ª accordingly.

POOR PRISONERS' DEFENCE BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 2:
Legal aid before courts of summary jurisdiction.
2. If it appears to a court of summary jurisdiction or examining justices that the means of any person charged before them with any offence are insufficient to enable him to obtain legal aid and that by reason of the gravity of the charge or of exceptional circumstances it is desirable in the interests of justice that he should have free legal aid in the preparation and conduct of his defence before them, the court of justices may grant in respect of him a certificate (in this Act referred to as a "legal

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aid certificate"), and thereupon he shall be entitled to such aid and to have a solicitor and (where he is charged with murder and the justices think fit) counsel assigned to him for that purpose in the prescribed manner.
LORD DARLING LORD DARLING moved to leave out "and (where he is charged with murder and the justices think fit) counsel." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I have set down an Amendment to this clause, and I think I should explain to your Lordships at once that I did not devise it, but it was thought in the Home Office, which has charge of these matters, that difficulty would arise if this clause were passed in the terms in which it now appears. Therefore it was suggested that this Amendment should be moved fur your Lordships to consider it, and it is simply for this reason that I suggest that these words should be left out. The clause as printed in the Bill provides that the court or justices may grant in respect of the person accused
"a certificate (in this Act referred to as a legal aid certificate') and thereupon he shall be entitled to such aid and to have a solicitor."
There is no objection anywhere to that, but the clause goes on to say, "and (where he is charged with murder and the justices think fit) counsel assigned to him" for his defence.
The Amendment proposes to leave out the words "and (where he is charged with murder and the justices think fit) counsel." As I understand it, the objection taken is this, that murders are not confined to those towns in which there is a sufficient local Bar practising and attending at Assizes, accustomed to deal with murder cases. You might have a murder committed in a very obscure little place, where there is no counsel or, if there is counsel, no counsel with the kind of experience which would be of the least use to any prisoner, if that man were to defend him before a Judge of Assize. It is thought that, this being so, the magistrates might, if they were to appoint counsel, not have that large choice which they would have in large towns like London, Manchester, Liverpool or Birmingham. They might take, if there was a barrister at all, simply some local barrister, utterly unaccustomed to deal with murder cases, and perhaps a man who had never had such a case before, and he would naturally be seized of the case when it came to the Assizes.
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That is the opinion of those entitled to be heard in this matter, and I simply undertook to bring the point to your Lordships' notice. I think I ought candidly to say that I think there is not much danger in it, because the words are that the justices
"may grant in respect of him a certificate … and thereupon he shall be entitled to such aid and to have a solicitor."
All that would stand, and then come the words objected to, which are "and (where he is charged with murder and the justices think fit) counsel assigned to him." It is only where the justices think fit.
I think it was Lord Atkin who put in these words when the Bill was before your Lordships in Committee, and I should think it very probable that he may say that the justices will be entitled not to use this power improperly and only to use it if they think fit. It may well be that, if they do not know of any counsel in the neighbourhood whom they can assign, they would not assign any counsel but leave the case to go to the Assizes, or for that to happen which always happens in respect of such cases—that some people interested in a spectacle being provided for the public will provide for the best known counsel at the Bar to be secured. I have said all that I have to say in regard to the Amendment, and no doubt my noble and learned friend will state his attitude towards it.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 28, leave out from ("solicitor") to the end of line 29.—(Lord Darling.)
LORD ATKIN: My Lords, I venture to think there is no real reason for altering the decision that your Lordships arrived at some four weeks ago, unanimously, and if I were not speaking of this House I should say agreed to with enthusiasm. On that occasion I ventured to point out that there were a few cases in which a poor prisoner might not have the full effect of the provisions for legal aid—not all cases but some cases—and therefore I framed a very carefully guarded Amendment, which was confined to murder cases, and which even in murder cases gave the justices a discretion as to whether they should assign counsel or not. That discretion seems to me to remove altogether the difficulty, even if it existed, because if there were no counsel likely to be able to take the ease, the justices need not exercise

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their discretion to assign counsel, but may leave it to the solicitor, and it seems to me to be a very poor reason for preventing poor persons from having adequate defence where adequate counsel can be provided, to say that in a few cases counsel might not be had.
The objection seems to me to be quite ill-conceived. I do not believe there is a place in England where it would not be possible to obtain adequate and good counsel. There is no profession that has ever given more willingly gratuitous service for the aid and relief of the poor than the profession of the Bar, both in England and in 'Scotland. It is a tradition that they should do it, and I am certain that counsel will be prepared to make sacrifice, if sacrifice be necessary, for the purpose of conducting the defence of prisoners. I do not believe there is a place in England where a poor person would not be able to get the services of entirely adequate counsel, and I venture to suggest that on principle it ought to take a strong case to induce this House to reverse in a few weeks time a decision arrived at unanimously in Committee. I venture to ask your Lordships to adhere to the Bill as it now stands.
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, as I was somewhat responsible for the Bill, may I say one word upon this matter? I think my noble and learned friend Lord Darling has moved the Amendment in such a manner as, to show that he is not very keen on its being carried. I think there is one point that has not been made by the noble and learned Lords who have spoken, which inclines me to think we can safely leave the provision in the Bill—namely, that two certificates may be given, a legal aid certificate under this clause, which is given for the purpose of appearing before the local magistrates, and a second certificate when the case goes before Quarter Sessions or the Assizes; and in that case, if I may respectfully say so to Lord Darling—it is the one point of substance he raised—the objection in regard to the capacity or otherwise of the counsel who might be assigned in some more remote country district would be got over.
I know that the view of the Home Office was in the first instance in favour of the Amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Darling, but I think on the whole your Lordship's would
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not do any harm in at all events letting the power remain to the magistrates to assign counsel if they see fit. It is purely permissive. I think the probability, even the certainty, is that no bench of magistrates would attempt to assign counsel if it was not in so remote a part of the country that no counsel lived there or—if I may be allowed to say so in these days of advertisement—that no counsel would be willing to go down in order to take up a murder case. My own experience of the legal profession is that in a case of this kind there would be no difficulty in getting a good counsel to go and take up the case.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY): My Lords, I think I ought to say that when my noble and learned friend Lord Atkin moved this Amendment in Committee to insert the words welcomed it as I thought the words were very useful. I am afraid I am still unrepentant and prefer those words. I think they ought to remain, and I hope your Lordship's will allow them to remain and reject the rather half-hearted Amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Darling. After all, the power given to the justices is only permissive.
LORD DARLING: My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord knows quite well this was not my invention at all. I promised to bring it before your Lordships. It was really a brief which I accepted. Like many others I accepted the brief in a bad form and I am quite satisfied at its having led to this debate. I would like to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6:
Short title, commencement, interpretation, extent and repeal.
5.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Poor Prisoners' Defence Act, 1930, and shall come into operation on the first day of September, nineteen hundred and thirty.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out "September, nineteen hundred and thirty" and to insert "January, nineteen hendred and thirty-one." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment I also move with reluctance. It is an Amendment to postpone the date of corning into operation of the Bill. The difficulty is that there is not time to get the machinery into

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operation by September 1 this year. A great deal has to be done in the way of consultation, and regulations have to be made under Clause 3 by the Secretary of State in connection with the new arrangements. In addition to that, rules and regulations have to be drafted by Parliamentary Counsel and to be put not only before the Home Office but before the solicitors' profession and the profession of the Bar, and there really is not time to enable that to be done. I am afraid it really is a necessity to ask your Lordships to alter the date of the coming into force of the Bill from September 1, 1930, to January 1, 1931. I need hardly say that with regard to this I consulted Sir John Withers.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 3, leave out ("September, nineteen hundred and thirty") and insert ("January, nineteen hundred and thirty-one").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT BRENTFORD: My Lords, whereas on the last Amendment the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack was unrepentant, I hope he is repentant in regard to this Amendment. As long as he admits his repentance I will not trouble your Lordships any further. I am very sorry it has been necessary to make this Amendment. The effect of it is, of course, that any poor prisoner who is prosecuted during the period between September 1 next and January 1, 1931, will not get the benefit of this Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

BRITISH NORTH AMERICA BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): My Lords, this is a Bill for confirming and validating certain Agreements between the Government of the Dominion of Canada on the one side and the Provincial Governments of Manitoba, Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia on the other. These Agreements, which have been unanimously approved both by the Dominion Parliament and by the Provincial Parliaments of the Provinces concerned, cannot be validated without the confirmation of the Imperial Parliament, and consequently
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this Bill is introduced at the desire of His Majesty's Government in Canada, and is in accordance with the terms of an Address to His Majesty the King from the Senate and House of Commons of Canada.
Your Lordships will see from the Bill that it is not a Bill in ordinary loom, but it consists of Agreements between these various Provinces, none of which can be altered at this stage, and which, indeed, have only been sent forward to the Parliament of the United Kingdom for the purpose of confirmation and validation. They provide for the transfer to the Provinces named of the control and administration of their natural resources—land, mines, minerals and so forth. These hitherto have been vested in the Dominion Government. In the case of the original members of the Canadian Federation—those older members of the Canadian Federation in these particular Provinces—these assets already belong to the Provincial Governments; and these Agreements, which have been approved, as I say, by Acts of Parliament both of the Dominion and of the Provincial Legislatures concerned, are merely designed to place the younger Provinces on the same footing as the older Provinces which had been constituted at the time of the North America Act, 1867.
The reason why legislation by Parliament here is required is that the British North America Acts, under which there was conferred on the Parliament of Canada the right to establish new Provinces, also provided that (except in one point with which we are not concerned to-day) it shall not be competent for the Parliament of Canada to alter the provisions of any Dominion Act establishing new Provinces. It is not necessary, of course, to go into a matter of this kind about which there is no controversy, but the particular sections involved are Sections 3 and 6 of the British North America Act, 1871. No controversy of any kind arises with regard to those provisions and the necessity for confirmation is agreed to by everyone, the reason being that the various Agreements vesting in the particular Provinces their own natural resources cannot be made effective without confirmation by the Imperial Parliament.

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His Majesty's Government in Canada have expressed the hope that it will be found possible for the Bill to be passed and receive the Royal Assent at as early a date as possible. The reason is that the Province of Manitoba was constituted a Province first in July, 1870. It was constituted first of all under a Canadian Act, but it was held that it required confirmation under the Act of 1871. When that confirmation was given the earlier date was accepted as the actual date on which the Province was constituted. At the present time what I may call a Jubilee is being prepared in Manitoba to celebrate the sixtieth anniversary of the foundation of the Province. Extensive arrangements have been made in connection with that Jubilee, and it is desired both by the Government of the Province and the Government of Canada that on this occasion there shall be handed over, as confirmed and validated by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, those natural resources which are now vested in the Dominion Government, but which hereafter are to be transferred to the Manitoba Provincial Government.
I am sure that all your Lordships will wish to join in congratulating the Dominion of Canada and the Province of Manitoba on having made this friendly arrangement, and that you will feel that it would add much to the effectiveness of the celebration if the transfer of those natural resources should be made on the date I have mentioned. I hope your Lordships will agree that we ought to do our best to make sure that this very reasonable request is complied with, and I trust that your Lordships will regard the passage of this Bill as entirely uncontroversial and as raising no political issue at all. I hope that we shall give it a unanimous assent. I am sure that we shall, and no doubt that will be given by the other House of Parliament too.
If I may mention it now on my Motion for Second Reading, I have a proposal which would enable us to carry this Bill through all its stages to-day so that it may go down at the earliest possible moment to another place. I hope that noble Lords who lead the Opposition—the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, and the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp—will be able to assent to that proposal. I think it would increase the compliment of our
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unanimous assent if at the same time we bear in mind the desire of the Dominion Parliament and the Provincial Parliament to have this matter settled as early as possible having regard to the sixtieth anniversary of the constitution of Manitoba as a Province. I realise, of course, that this is an exceptional case. If none of your Lordships has any opposition I hope we may carry the Bill through all its stages to-day and send our best wishes for its quick progress and hope that it may be of advantage to all the parties concerned. I beg to more that the Bill be now read a second time. It will be a later matter to move the suspension of the Standing Order.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Lord Parmoor.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I need not tell your Lordships, on behalf of those for whom I speak on this side of the House, that our only wish will be to facilitate as far as we can the passage of this Bill into law. I will not dwell upon its merits as those are not in question. The question merely is whether we can make the procedure as quick as possible in order to show how glad we are to conform with the wishes of the Dominion of Canada and the Province of Manitoba. May I take this opportunity of saying that so far as we are concerned we shall offer in the circumstances no opposition to the suspension of the Standing Order as suggested by the noble and learned Lord?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I would say on behalf of my noble friends how cordially we welcome the opportunity of saying a word or two in relation to this measure which only in a technical way really comes before your Lordships. I am glad that it has come because it gives us an opportunity not only of saying that we hope that the Bill will have an easy and immediate passage but also of conveying our very best wishes to the Province of Manitoba upon the happy anniversary which is just about to be celebrated. We hope that they may have a continued spell of prosperity for many years to come.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I need say nothing more in moving that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with in regard to this Bill.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with.—(Lord Parmoor.)
On Question Motion agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, House in Committee: Bill reported without amendment.
Bill read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned at half past four o'clock.