HL Deb 17 December 1930 vol 79 cc657-60

Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Second Report from the Select Committee.

The Committee reported as follows:—

1. DEATH OF SIR HENRY GRAHAM, K.C.B.

The Committee recorded their sense of deep regret at the death of Sir Henry Graham, K.C.B., late Clerk of the Parliaments, and desired the Chairman of Committees to communicate the same to Lady Margaret Graham.

2. CLOAKROOM ACCOMMODATION IN THE PEERS' LOBBY.

Certain proposed rearrangements for the accommodation of Peers' hats and greatcoats were agreed to.

3. HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPTS.

The Clerk of the Parliaments brought in the notice of the Committee an application from Professor W. Motestein that certain documents in the Victoria Tower might be transferred temporarily to the Record Office to ho photographed there. The Committee authorised the Clerk of the Parliaments to make the necessary arrangements with the Record Office.

4. LIBRARY SUB-COMMITTEE.

The Lord Ponsonby of Shulebrede was added to the Sub-Committee.

5. RESTORATION OF THE STONEWORK OF THE PALACE.

The Chairman of Committees called the attention of the Committee to certain proposals of the Office of Works for repairs to the stonework outside the Library and Committee Rooms.

6. CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS AND CLERK ASSISTANT.

In accordance with a report from the Sub-Committee, the Committee recommend that as from the 1st of April next the salary of the Clerk of the Parliaments shall be £2,500 a year, plus an allowance of £500 for a house, and that of the Clerk Assistant £1,800, inclusive.

7. ESTIMATE, 1931.

The Estimate for 1931 was resubmitted to the Committee and agreed to, as amended.

The Committee declined to insert provision for the expenses of witnesses in connection with the Joint Committee on East Africa on the ground that no funds were available out of which to meet these expenses and that in time opinion of the Committee the cost should be borne elsewhere.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUOTIMORE)

My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now considered and adopted. In doing so I ought to make an explanation to your Lordships with regard to item 7, which you will have noted. It is a record of our proceedings yesterday, and, in accordance with my duty, I move that it be approved by this House. I ought to mention that since the Committee met and this Report was printed, the Secretary of State for the Colonies has been good enough to communicate with me. He is anxious that this matter which was decided yesterday should be reconsidered, and when this House meets again I will issue the usual notices summoning the Committee, in order that the matter may be again taken into consideration. I hope that we shall then have the benefit of the assistance of the Secretary of State himself at the meeting of the Committee, as well as that of some of your Lordships who are members of the Joint Committee in question.

Moved, That this Report be now considered and adopted.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD PASSFIELD)

My Lords, I have to express my thanks to the Lord Chairman for what he has said. The matter is one which T think could with advantage be reconsidered, and I shall be very glad to wait upon the Offices Committee next year, as early as possible, in order that we may have further discussion.

LORD ISLINGTON

My Lords, as a member of the Offices Committee, I should like to make one or two observations upon the decision that we came to yesterday afternoon. I confess that some of us were surprised when a demand was put to the Committee for an expenditure to be permitted by them of no less than £4,000, that being half of the full expenditure of £8,000 incurred in connection with witnesses coining from East Africa. I understand it is said that this is in accordance with custom, but I also understand that it is not in accordance with constitutional law. The point is this, that this question of Last Africa has been fully considered. I was myself, quite a number of years ago, Chairman of a similar Committee on Indian affairs, which considered this question of Last Africa, and it so happened that the witnesses were available in this country, so that the amount required for their expenses was trivial. Again, I was a member of a Joint Committee which considered the Montagu Report. The same thing happened there. It happened that most of the witnesses whose evidence it was considered necessary to take were to be found in this country, and, therefore, the amount of expenditure incurred was trivial. The case in point here is a very different one. The witnesses all have to come from East Africa. I am told that amongst some thirty witnesses no fewer than nine natives will be called to give evidence, and they will require something like half a dozen interpreters to make themselves intelligible to the members of the Joint Committee. Their expenses will all have to be paid.

I would like your Lordships to bear this in mind, that in the consideration of this Committee, difficult and complicated though the subject is, there is no subject which has undergone the lash of investigation to such a great extent as this subject of East Africa. To my certain knowledge there was first a gathering together out there of the Governors of the countries concerned, together with their secretaries. Then there was a conference of the Governors, with their secretariat, in this country, and their expenses have had to be paid. They fully considered the question and no one could have been more competent to give an opinion. In addition, there has been a Royal Commission which gave a most valuable Report. That, however, was not sufficient, and the permanent Under-Secretary of the Colonial Office, Sir Samuel Wilson, was sent out to East Africa to investigate again. There again those concerned obtained their share of their expenses. So I suppose this question has been investigated more than any other.

I should have thought the Government might have been in a position to-day to come to some well-thought out and well advised decision on the subject. But not at all. A Joint Committee is appointed, and now we are asked to pay for it. It is already £8,000 and it will be more before it is finished. I never knew any Committee to entertain a more unanimous feeling against this expenditure than that which met yesterday. It is to be reconsidered at an adjourned meeting. I am only telling your Lordships for what this expenditure has been incurred, and therefore I trust that when the matter comes before your Lordships' House again it may give you the opportunity of going still further into the subject and making your decision, after well considered thought as to what that decision shall be.

On Question, Motion agreed to.