§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 1:
§ Close season for grey seals.
§ 1.—(1) Subject us hereinafter provided, there shall be, both in England and in Scotland, an annual close season for grey seals, that is to say, seals of the species known as halichœrus grypus, extending train the first day of October to the fifteenth day of December, both inclusive:
§ Provided that, in the case of England, the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries and, in the case of Scotland, a Secretary of State, may at any time by order direct, either generally or as respects any area described in the order, that, notwithstanding anything in the foregoing provision—
- (a) there shall be no close season during the twelve months next following the making of the order; or
- (b) the next close season shall commence and end on such dates as may be specified in the order.
§
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (EARL DE LA WARR) moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert:—
(2) An order made under this section which renders lawful the killing of grey seals during their breeding season may contain such regulations, if any, as the Minister or the Secretary of State thinks fit for prohibiting, during such period as may be specified in the order, the killing of grey seals in places to which they resort for breeding by any weapon or instrument or in any manner, not being a weapon, instrument or manner sanctioned by the regulations.
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is moved in pursuance of an undertaking which I gave to Lord Danesfort on the Committee stage of the Bill. As I told him at the time, it was impossible to go quite as far as he wished, but I think he will admit that this Amendment is a very big step forward in the direction which he would like to travel. Actually the purpose of this new subsection is to make it possible for the Minister, or the Secretary of State, when he decides to make it lawful to kill grey seals during the breeding season, to make regulations as to the means by which the grey seals shall be killed. It is possible so to do because during the breeding season the killing will be done in an organised fashion, by possibly a 476 raid on the rookery. Therefore it should be perfectly possible to lay down regulations whereby this organised killing is carried out. It is not possible to go further and lay down regulations for the killing of all grey seals outside the breeding period, for the reason that I gave your Lordships in Committee. Then the killing is done by individual fishermen, who at some time or another come across a grey seal. They are possibly not expecting to see grey seals, and they have with them no rifle or other means of killing seals; they just kill in the best way possible. Your Lordships will see, I think, that under those conditions it is quite impossible to lay down or to enforce regulations, and I therefore beg to move the Amendment that stands in my name.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 22, at end, insert the said new subsection (2).—(Earl De La Warr.)
§ LORD DANESFORTMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for having gone some way, at any rate, to meet the case which I ventured to put forward on Second Reading and in Committee, but I hope he will not think me ungrateful if I say that his Amendment goes only a very short way to meet the case that I raised, because his Amendment is severely restricted both as to place and time. It is restricted as to time because it only applies to those times when an order is made rendering lawful the killing of grey seals during the breeding season, and it would not apply to any other part of the year. As regards the restriction of place, it can only restrict the mode of killing at places where the grey seals resort for breeding. It would have a certain effect, I know, in preventing the cruelty which has for some years past existed as to the mode in which grey seals are killed, but it would leave untouched the cruelty which occurs in all places and at all times except those prescribed by the Bill.
What I would venture to ask the noble Earl is this: Would it not be possible for him to extend the powers of the Minister somewhat, so as to meet possible cases of this sort? Supposing cases were brought before the Minister in which there was very aggravated cruelty, by fishermen or others, in the killing of these grey seals. As the Bill stands, unless it occurred in the breeding season, and at the breeding places, the Minister could 477 take no action at all; but if the noble Earl extended the wording of this Amendment, or put in another new clause, then the Minister might deal specially with cases of that sort brought to his attention—really cases of aggravated cruelty with which otherwise he would be unable to deal. The noble Earl has said, quite truly, that in the eases which he contemplates there would be some organised process by which raids would be made under proper restrictions, but in cases such as I have suggested would it not be possible to give the Minister this power? Then he might organise raids, so that the seals would be killed otherwise than with cruelty. I should be very grateful if the noble Earl would promise to consider the matter between now and the next stage of the Bill, with a view of widening his Amendment, which, I think, although valuable, is very restricted.
§ EARL DE LA WARROf course I will consider any matter put forward by the noble Lord, but we have considered this matter very carefully and I am afraid I cannot hold out any hopes of any alteration. I will, however, certainly look into the matter further.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 2:
§ Offences in relation to grey seals during close season.
§ 2.—(1) Every person who—
- (a) during the close season knowingly and with intent kills, wounds or takes a grey seal; or
- (b) being an owner, charterer or hirer of a boat uses, or permits any person to use, it for the purpose of killing, wounding or taking a grey seal during the close season;
- (i) in the case of offences under paragraph (a) of this section, to a fine not exceeding five pounds in respect of each such offence; and
- (ii) in the case of offences under paragraph (b) of this section, to a fine not exceeding ten pounds in respect of each such offence.
§ EARL DE LA WARR moved, in subsection (1) (b), after "owner," to insert "master." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is moved in accordance with a suggestion that was made by the noble Viscount, Lord Bertie of Thame, and I think that, on the whole, it might be an improvement.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 12, after ("owner") insert ("master").—(Earl De La Warr.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ EARL DE LA WARRMy Lords, the next Amendment is consequential on the first Amendment.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 2, line 15, at end insert ("or
(c) contravenes any such regulation as is mentioned in subsection (2) of the preceding section;").—(Earl De La Warr.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ EARL DE LA WARRMy Lords, there is also another consequential Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 21, after ("paragraph (b)") insert ("or paragraph (e)").—(Earl De La Warr.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.