§ Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD THOMSON)My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered. I feel that there is some sort of apology due from me personally in this matter. I had a copy for the noble Marquess, the Leader of the Opposition, early yesterday afternoon—a correct copy of the Bill with the Amendments—but I did not pass it to him directly. The noble Earl, Lord Onslow, passed it on. It was the best I could do. The Report stage of the Bill had only been reached in another place at half-past ten the night before, and it was considered desirable, if possible, to get this very small measure through yesterday.
The Commons Amendments are not important. I think it will be for the convenience of the House if I summarise them, to save time. Eight of these Amendments involve the insertion of the phrase "within the meaning of this Act". It is considered desirable to introduce these drafting Amendments in order to make it quite clear at the outset that the qualified civil engineer referred to and defined in the Bill is a person employed in a, special sense, and is a civil engineer who is one of the panel set up under Clause 8. These are, in effect, purely drafting Amendments. There are in addition two Amendments of a somewhat more substantial character. The first of these applies to subsection (5) of Clause 2. Incidentally, there is a minor Amendment in the proviso to that subsection which substitutes 1198 "employment" for "permanent service". This is really a drafting Amendment.
The other Amendment to that proviso really constitutes a concession. The proviso, as modified, would read as follows:
Provided that, where there is in the employment of the undertakers a qualified civil engineer within the meaning of this Act, who is responsible to the undertakers for the maintenance of the reservoir, the undertakers may appoint that engineer to make any such inspection and report.An engineer employed by any set of undertakers who is a member of the panel can make a report independently, and not jointly with an independent engineer. It is really a concession to a point of view which was advanced by, amongst others, the noble Lord, Lord Banbury, who was thinking of big undertakings like the Metropolitan Water Board, who employ highly competent engineers on a more or less permanent basis. By this concession such an engineer would be able to make a report not jointly with an independent engineer appointed by the Secretary of State. It is an Amendment of some substance, but it really meets many of the arguments put forward in your Lordships' House during the debate on Second Reading and on Committee stage. The next Amendment of any substance occurs in Clause 7, page 5, line 19—"within the meaning of this Act".
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD SANKEY)May I call the noble Lord's attention to the fact that there are two copies of the Bill, the number of one being 100 and the number of the other 153?
§ LORD THOMSONI am dealing with number 153, which is the one on the Table. The Clause I am dealing with, Clause 7, page 8, line 12, relates to liability where damage or injury is caused by the escape of water from a reservoir constructed after the passing of this Act under statutory powers granted after the passing of this Act. That Amendment tends to reduce the number of cases where undertakers of the standing of the Metropolitan Water Board would be under two sets of legal formality—one referring to reservoirs constructed before the passing of this Act and the other referring to reservoirs constructed after the passing 1199 of this Act. The Amendment tends to reduce the number of cases in which large undertakers with several reservoirs, some constructed before and some after the commencement of this Act, will be subject to some legal liability in respect of the old reservoirs and different liabilities in respect of the new ones. The Bill as it now stands after amendment in another place will reduce the number of cases of these different liabilities because of the insertion of these words "granted after the passing of this Act". It is a very obscure point, but the point is that sonic of these reservoirs constructed before the passing of this Act were constructed under statutory powers and the only limitation now is to reservoirs constructed under statutory powers after the passing of this Act. It is really a limitation of the number of cases of difference. The next Amendment affects Clause 8, subsection (3), on page 8. That subsection is deleted. That is the definition of a civil engineer. That definition is transferred to page 9, Clause 10 subsection (1).
§ LORD THOMSONIt is practically drafting. I do not know why it has been transferred, but it has been transferred. The words are practically identical. Those are all the Amendments. I beg to move.
§ Moved, That the Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Thomson.)
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, perhaps as the noble and gallant Lord has made some general observations I may be allowed to say a few words generally. In the first place may I say that, as regards a personal point, I was very grateful to the noble and gallant Lord for having given me yesterday a copy of the Bill with Amendments, written in ink, as to which I think my noble friend who sits behind me made certain observations last night. I need not say that I was obliged to the noble and gallant Lord; but I would like to point out to the Government very respectfully, if I may, that it is not sufficient to hand a copy of a Bill amended in ink to a particular Peer, even if he be the occupier for the moment of the post of Leader of the Opposition. Really the point is that your Lordships ought to have the oppor- 1200 tunity of knowing exactly what you are doing.
It would really be—and I am sure the noble and gallant Lord will agree with me—too absurd if we were asked to legislate about matters we did not understand merely because the Leader of the Opposition had been given a manuscript copy. Therefore, although I am very grateful to the noble and gallant Lord for his courtesy to me, I am afraid that cannot be looked upon as a solution so far as your Lordships' House is concerned. I know that one of my noble friends behind me thinks that everything is very satisfactory in the way business is wound up at the end of the Session. I hope he is convinced now that there is a certain ground for criticism. But I do not want to find fault with the Government. They have done the best they can in your Lordships' House. The fault does not lie here; it lies of course in another place. I have only to say as regards the Amendments which the noble and gallant Lord has detailed to us, that they are for the most part drafting Amendments. There is an Amendment, which he dwelt upon, by which the powers granted are limited to powers after the passing of this Act which are limiting words, but there are already limiting words in the clause limiting it to cases where reservoirs are constructed after the passing of the Bill. The extension of the limitation to the powers as well as to the construction does not amount to very much. At any rate, as far as noble Lords on this side of the House are concerned, I am sure we shall make no difficulties.
§ LORD JESSELMy Lords, as my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition has referred to me, and said that I approved of the methods of the Government in this House, may I explain that what I said, and what I reiterate, is that we had the opportunity in this House of dealing with very important Bills in the earlier part of the Session. Those Bills were fully discussed, and I expressed the hope that in future, if our Party came into power again, we should again have that opportunity, which in the past we have not had. But, as regards this particular muddle, that is due to the usual hurry and rush at the end of the Session, and it is a great pity, and we must all deplore it. I am not in the least in love with this Government, as they 1201 know, but where they have earned a good mark has been in giving us an opportunity of going thoroughly into Bills at the commencement of the Session.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.