Lords Sitting of 8 April 1930

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House can tell your Lordships anything as to the business of the House?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (LORD PARMOOR): My Lords, I think I can give the noble Marquess the information which he desires. I assume it is information relating to the general course of business in the immediate future. Of course that is not like the laws of the Medes and Persians in that it cannot be altered; but this is what is proposed. The Coal Mines Bill will be read a first time this evening. After consideration, and with the desire that this House should have the very fullest opportunity of considering a Bill of that kind, we propose that the Second Reading should not be taken until Tuesday, April 29, the day on which the House reassembles after the Recess. I hope that in the subsequent stages, though I do not want to press your Lordships, consideration will be given to the fact that there has been a consider-
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able interval for the study of the Bill by members of the House who take an interest in it. The First Reading of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill will be taken this evening, and I think probably the best time for the Second Reading will be this day week; but I will say a further word on that point presently. The Third Parties (Rights Against Insurers) Bill may be read a first time this evening, and it will not be necessary to press that Bill further forward until after Easter. There is no special hurry about it. I understand that it will reach us to-night, but, if it does not, it will not matter very much, because I do not propose to take the Second Reading until after Easter.
To-morrow we shall have the pleasure of hearing the noble Lord, Lord Trenchard, on the question of the Air Force. I propose that we should give the whole of to-morrow's sitting to that discussion, and I am told that several noble Lords desire to speak. We shall also take the First Reading of the Unemployment Insurance (No. 3) Bill. That Bill concerns the additional sum of £10,000,000, and there is nothing in it except the money question. On Thursday we shall consider the Commons Amendments to the Children (Employment Abroad) Bill, which your Lordships passed last November. I think the Amendments are fairly formal and concern the bringing in of Northern Ireland, which was not in the Bill before. The Second Reading of the Land Drainage

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Bill will be moved by my noble friend Lord De La Warr on Thursday, and the Third Reading of the Land Drainage (Scotland) Bill will also be taken on that day.
Next Tuesday I propose, after giving Notice on Thursday, to move the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX in order that the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill may go through its remaining stages. That Bill must be obtained before we adjourn for the Recess. We shall also take the Third Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill, leaving time for a Royal Commission. I will not give the exact hour at which the Royal Commission will take place, but half past six is the time suggested. I think I have mentioned all the work that we have to do before the Easter Recess.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I need not say that we shall offer no opposition to the course which the noble and learned Lord suggests, but I hope he will allow me to suggest one alteration in his programme—namely, that instead of meeting next week we should sit on Friday to consider the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill. I think some changes have been made in that Bill in another place, and it is not unlikely, though I have no certain information, that there may be some discussion upon it. If there is, I cannot help thinking that it would be much more convenient to sit on Friday and not to be obliged to come back in the course of next week. We can dispose of the Bill quite well on Friday morning and deal with all its stages on that day, instead of on Tuesday. There are many noble Lords who are so fortunate as to live in or near London. To them it does not matter very much whether we sit again next week or not. On the other hand, there are a certain number of your Lordships who live some way from London and to whom it is a matter of considerable inconvenience to come up for one day. On their behalf, and on my own, I venture to suggest to your Lordships that it might be more convenient to us and to the House generally if we finished our discussions this week. I should not for a moment hesitate to have a purely formal meeting on Tuesday for the Royal Commission which is always necessary at this stage
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of the Session. Subject to the views of the noble Marquess beside me (the Marquess of Salisbury) I will venture to submit that point for the consideration of the noble and learned Lord.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, let me in the first place say how well advised I think the noble and learned Lord and the Government have been in determining not to take the Second Reading of the Coal Mines Bill until after Easter. I think this shows a very proper regard on their part to the great importance of the Bill and the great interest which your Lordships' House is likely to take in it. I do not think that in the long run any time will be lost by the postponement of the Second Reading until after Easter. As regards the Land Drainage Bill, like the noble Earl, the Under-Secretary of State for War, I do not pretend to be an authority on land drainage, but I confess that I am a little appalled at the immense complexity of the measure, and I am bound to say that I very much doubt whether the noble Earl will be able to persuade your Lordships to give him the Second Reading on Thursday, and that being so I should have thought that part of the time on Thursday might have been profitably employed in reading the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill a second time. I have, as I believe the learned and noble Lord has, great objection to suspending the Standing Order, except when it is really necessary, and when there is an abundant number of days before us before the adjournment for the Recess.
I should have thought that the Second Reading of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill, about which no doubt your Lordships will agree, could have been taken on Thursday. Then, when you come to the Committee stage, which is the important stage of the Bill, in the present state of things, we have the proposal made by the noble Earl above the gangway that the Committee stage of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill should be taken on Friday. I have great reluctance to differing from Lord Beauchamp on a matter of this kind, but I think that it would be quite as well to adhere to the Government's plan of taking the effective important stage of the Bill on Tuesday of next week. It is undoubtedly the greatest possible nuisance to have to come back when

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you have started your holiday, but I can assure the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp, that the number of miles you are from London does not make a great deal of difference. I have not found nearness to London an advantage in public life at all. On the contrary I find that you are asked more than if you were a little further off. At any rate I have no objection whatever to Tuesday for the effective stage of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill. I only make this very respectful suggestion to the Government, and conclude by thanking them for their courtesy in giving us the information they have done.
LORD PARMOOR: I sympathise very much with Lord Beauchamp's view. I do not live as far from London as he does, nor as near as the noble Marquess, but I think that on the whole we had better confirm the suggestion which I made that we meet on Tuesday of next week, and also accept the suggestion of the noble Marquess that it would be convenient on that day to take the Committee Stage of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill, which undoubtedly is the important stage of that particular Bill. I have discussed more than once with the noble Marquess the fate of the Land Drainage Bill. I admit that he has not satisfied me that we cannot go on with the Second Reading in the ordinary form. It is a long Bill, but not a mysterious Bill. I should have thought that land drainage was the least mysterious topic that we could have to deal with. However, we can wait till the time comes and see what is to be done.

READING CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2a.
EPSOM RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
GUILDFORD RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MID KENT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
COAL MINES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (GUILDFORD AND WEST KENT MAIN SEWERAGE DISTRICT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
EDINBURGH CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
RENFREWSHIRE UPPER DISTRICT (EASTWOOD AND MEARNS) WATER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
COQUET FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order).

LAND DRAINAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1 [Maintenance of banks and cleansing of channels of watercourses]:
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, this is a purely drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, leave out from ("sheriff") to ("direct") in line 29, and insert ("if he thinks fit, may, and on the application of any party, shall").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2:
Making of underground main drains.
(3) Such warrant shall provide (i) for the payment by the person so authorised of compensation for any damage caused to any other person by reason of the making of the undeground main drains authorised by such warrant, the amount of such compensation, failing agreement, to be determined by the sheriff after such inquiry as aforesaid; and (ii) for the proper maintenance or renewal of the said drains in the future at the expense of the owner for the time being of the said agricultural land.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 43, leave out from ("sheriff") to ("direct") in line 2 on page 4, and insert ("if he thinks fit, may, and on the application of the person through whose land such underground main drains are proposed to be made, shall").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE moved, in subsection (3), before "damage," to insert "loss or." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is the same as one that I moved in Committee. The noble Earl in charge of the Bill said then that it was a drafting Amendment, and that he was advised that there was really no difference between the words in the Bill and my Amendment, except that my Amendment was slightly longer and in the Government's opinion not quite so well drafted. I have since been advised that this Amendment is really necessary. As the Bill at present stands the words are:—
"Such warrant shall provide (i) for the payment by the person so authorised of compensation for any damage."
That wording might be confined to personal damage, and not include financial damage as well. Considerable damage might be done to standing crops, or dykes or fences, and my intention is that the words "loss or" should be inserted in front of the word "damage," so that financial loss would be fully covered. It is better, I think, to have extra words than to run any risk of extra litigation under the clause, and I hope the Government mill accept my Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 7, after ("any") insert ("loss or").—(The Earl of Lauderdale.)
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, we are still advised that these words are not really necessary, but if the noble Earl is keen on them we have no objection and will accept them.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3:
Schemes for drainage works.
(2) Before executing any works under this section the Department shall prepare a draft scheme specifying—
(d) the estimated cost of maintaining the works proposed to be executed and the manner in which the cost of such maintenance is to be apportioned among the lands comprised in the area;
and shall give to the owners and occupiers of the land comprised in the area, and to any navigation authority or other body or person appearing to the Department or claiming to be affected by the scheme, notice in the prescribed manner of the making of the draft scheme, and of the place where it can be inspected and of the time within which objections to the scheme may be presented to the Department.
In estimating the cost of carrying out the scheme for the purposes of this subsection the Department shall take into account the cost of the execution of the works and the compensation, if any, which may be expected to become payable in pursuance of this section.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, this again is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, lines 20 and 21, leave out ("of Agriculture for Scotland").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved, in paragraph (d) of subsection (2), after "executed," to insert "the amount to be recoverable by the Department in respect of such cost." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, in moving my first Amendment, it may save your Lordships' time if I put the case for the landowner on this matter of his liabilities for "maintenance." There was no definite provision in the original Bill for the Department paying anything towards the costs of maintenance. It may be assumed, therefore, that it was never intended that the Department should contribute to those costs. After debate, the Government has put down Amendments on this intricate point. I seek the definite pledge that the De-

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partment will be responsible for all expenditure on maintenance as on construction in so far as the owner derives no economic benefit therefrom. If the noble Earl accepts that view then I have nothing more to say. I have only further to remind him that while he and I are at one as to the need for main drainage, and while I am driven to the conclusion that the Government must assist in view of the ruin of agriculture and of the landowner, so completely accomplished by the legislation and taxation of every Government, we foresee very different results.
The Government has in its mind a waterlogged plain whose fertile soil is to be made to smile and blossom like the rose, at the wave of a wand by an impeccable Socialist Administration. What I feared is a plain where, in the effort to make two blades of grass grow where one grew before, all capital value, and more, had been eaten up by the swarm of locusts which had settled upon it—department and sub-department, surveyor and draughtsman, inspector and sub-inspector, accountant and foreman, with a crowd of lacemakers, wool combers, yarn spinners and dole earners who had never turned a sod in their lives—leaving the grower of corn and potatoes as the man to stand the shot, with not even the original blade of grass to keep the wolf from the door. I recall a scheme, which I turned down, for reclaiming land in the Island of Lewis, submitted by a theoretical official who might well have been trained in the Academy of Laputa. It was to reclaim bog and rock at £30 or more an acre to be let on crofter tenure, so that the owner should become liable for a tenant's failure. Plausible schemes of this sort are so easily devised in the inner recesses of public offices, to fail lamentably when put to the practical test. Therefore I invite the noble Earl to continue his co-operation in amending the Bill as it entered your Lordships' House, so as to leave it in an altered shape free of all trace of injustices.
Amendment moved—
Page 4 line 41, after ("executed") insert ("the amount to be recoverable by the Department in respect of such cost").—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I hope that if I give your Lordships the assurance that we are in agreement with the principle of this Amendment, I
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shall not be taken as committing myself to full agreement with the noble Viscount's views on impeccable Socialism, and its relation to lace-making and woolcombing. I very gladly, however, give the noble Viscount the assurance of the Government that our Amendments which are put down to cover his points will secure that in no case shall any owner of land be called upon to pay in respect of the carrying out of a scheme and of the cost of maintaining the works more than the estimated value of the benefits accruing to his land from the carrying out of those works. I think that is the assurance that the noble Viscount asked for, and I hope, therefore, that he will not press his Amendments but allow me to move Amendments on behalf of the Government.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: My Lords, with that assurance I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment, and I shall not move the others which are on the Paper in my name.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
EARL DE LA WARR: I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 5, line 1, leave out ("the cost of such maintenance") and insert ("such estimated cost")
Page 5, line 19, after the first ("the") inserted ("estimated")
Page 5, line 23, after ("lands") insert ("in respect of the estimated cost of carrying out the scheme and of maintaining the works").
Page 6, line 9, leave out from beginning to ("to")
Page 6, line 10, after ("lands") insert ("in respect of the estimated cost of carrying out the scheme and of maintaining the works")
Page 8, line 29, after ("shall") insert ("in so far as such cost does not exceed the estimated cost of maintenance specified in the scheme").—(Earl De La Warr.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
VISCOUNT NOVAR VISCOUNT NOVAR moved, after subsection (12), to insert the following new subsection:—
"() If any lands in respect of which a rate in pursuance of subsection (6) of this section or a sum in respect of the cost of maintenance is recoverable shall after the date when the scheme is settled be divided by sale or feu the rate or sum shall be apportioned among and payable by the owners of the various parts of the lands so divided according to the gross annual value of their respective parts as appearing

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in the valuation roll, and where any part of such a rate is payable by an occupier and the lands in his occupation have after the said date been divided between two or more occupiers the said part of such rate shall be apportioned among and payable by the occupiers according to the gross annual value as aforesaid."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I will not labour this point, because I think it has been placed for consideration in the hands of the noble Earl opposite.
EARL DE LA WARR: Yes, quite so.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: If the noble Earl will undertake to consider it before the Third Reading that will satisfy me, because I have not put the Amendment on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 38, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Novar.)
EARL DE LA WARR: Yes, we will consider it.
VISCOUNT NOVAR: I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

WIRELESS TELEPHONY.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON THE EARL OF CLARENDON rose to ask His Majesty's Government if they will give every possible facility to Imperial and International Communications, Limited, for research and experimental work in connection with wireless telephony. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I need not, I think, detain you for any length of time in putting this Question, because I understand from my noble friend Lord Russell that the reply will be of a sympathetic order. But I want to assure him at the outset of what I have to say that there is no ulterior motive behind the Question. It is, in fact, a purely friendly one. But it is essential at this stage to secure, so far as we can, some form of positive assurance from His Majesty's Government that the International Communications Company, Limited, which I represent this afternoon in your Lordships' House, shall in no way be hampered in so far as research and experimental work are concerned. If that great merger is in any way hampered in so far as this particular part of its operations is concerned, it means
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that we shall lose that part of the market which is connected with the sale of wireless telephonic equipment. It is not, I think, stretching the imagination too far to say that only by means of research and experimental work is the production side of the enterprise enabled to ascertain what exactly are the needs of the customers in this particular line throughout the world.
Before proceeding further, I should like to read to your Lordships a passage from a book which was written quite lately, entitled "America Conquers Britain" by a gentleman of the name of Ludwell Denny. The book is published by Alfred A. Knopf, Ltd., and I would most seriously commend it to the attention of those of your Lordships who take an interest in matters of this kind. As your Lordships are probably aware, there exists in the United States of America a very powerful organisation known as the International Telephone and Telegraph Corporation. This great enterprise started operations in the year 1920; that is to say, ten years ago. It was organised by two brothers of the name of Behn. It started with a capital of $6,000,000, and in the year 1928 its annual gross earnings amounted to a sum of $81,000,000.
Turning to Mr. Denny's publication. I would like to read this short passage to your Lordships. Mr. Denny says that this particular corporation, the International Telephone and Telegraph Corporation,
"probably has done more in nine years to break the British world communications monopoly than all other companies and Governments combined in the half century of electrical communications. I.T.T. in its field has conquered most of Latin America, has invaded Europe, and now reaches out for more in every direction. Starting with purchase in 1920 of the telephone systems of Cuba and Porto Rico, it connected these with the United States by a Key West-Havana telephone cable in co-operation with A.T.T. [American Telephone and Telegraph]. Then I.T.T. jumped across the Atlantic in 1924 to acquire from the Spanish Government 80 per cent, of the stock in that country's telephone system, which it reorganised. This was followed in 1925 by purchase from Western Electric and American Telephone and Telegraph of the International Western Electric. It reorganised the latter as the International Standard Electric, with factories in London, Antwerp, Vienna, Paris, Madrid, The Hague, Budapest, Milan, Tokio, Shanghai, and other key cities abroad.

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At that point the Behns came to terms with the House of Morgan. Subsequent international extension was even more rapid. The trust's European telephone holdings soon included the French Thompson-Houston interests, and were followed by municipal installation contracts in Paris and other cities. German manufacturing companies were acquired, and then the British Creed and Company. The only large European competitor remaining is the Swedish Ericsson Telephone Company, operating in Scandinavia, and parts of Poland, Italy and the Balkans.
Swinging back to this"—
the American—
"hemisphere I.T.T. in 1927 acquired All America Cables (30,000 miles of sea and land lines in addition to radio connections) linking the United States, Central and South America. This was followed by acquisition of telephone lines in Chili, Southern Brazil, Montevideo and parts of Uruguay, and Mexico, and radio concessions in Peru. Much to the alarm and indignation of London, the Behn-Morgan Trust in 1928 bought out the British owners of United River Plate Telephone Company, covering Buenos Aires and four Argentine provinces, the largest single system in Latin America. Only a small minority interest is retained by the British.
Then the trust was rounded out by absorbing in 1928 the Mackay combine, including the Postal Telegraph system in the United States, the Commercial Atlantic and Pacific cables (27,000 miles) and the Mackay ship-to-shore and station radio systems. As a result gross earnings of I.T.T. in 1928 rose 118 per cent. After buying the Mackay and the All America Cable systems, I.T.T. in 1929 obtained the Venezuelan cable monopoly (formerly held by the French). It bought United States and Haiti Telegraph and Cable Company, which connects with the system covering the West Indies and with the north coast of South America systems formerly monopolised by the French-British interests. Other recent acquisitions include radio-telephone-telegraph concessions in Nicaragua, Ecuador, Peru, and Colombia. I.T.T. is now said to control about two-thirds of the 1.5 million telephones in South America."
That is the story I have to tell your Lordships in connection with the competition which the company I have the honour to represent has to meet from the other side of the water. Your Lordships will agree, I think, that the growth and development of that corporation is nothing short of remarkable. I have endeavoured to show your Lordships by what I have read from that book what it is exactly that the Imperial and International Communications are up against. Our request this afternoon is bound up with a desire to secure from His Majesty's Government an assurance that
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they will use their influence, as far as possible, on behalf of the great organisation which I represent as against the American interests on the other side of the water. If the organisation which I represent fails in securing what we are out to obtain so far as we can, it simply means this. So far as we know there is no other organisation in existence which can compete in any way with that great organisation on the other side of the water, and unless we are successful the American interests will secure the entire field of operations. I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Paper.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (EARL RUSSELL): My Lords, the noble Earl has given a very striking advertisement to this American development. I do not quite know what he suggests about it. We have to recognise, I think, that America is the richest country in the world at this time and that she has these stupendous developments with which no other country can compete. I do not know whether the noble Earl deprecated that, or whether he would deprecate the employment of American capital in the concerns, the electrical concerns though not necessarily the wireless concerns of this country. But that also has taken place. If the only object of the noble Earl was to show the serious competition which his or any other company has to meet, that, of course, I understand. I was very glad to learn from him, when I applied to him in advance, that he had no complaint to make of his treatment by the Post Office at present. The Postmaster-General was a little alarmed by this Question, and thought there might be some suggestion that proper opportunities for research and experiment had been refused.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: I hope the noble Earl will forgive me interrupting him at this stage. It is quite true to say we had no complaint to make in so far as this particular question is concerned, but I think I made it clear to the noble Earl this morning over the telephone that we were not very happy, or very pleased, over the result of the Committee of Inquiry into the question of beam telephony.
EARL RUSSELL: I quite appreciated that the noble Earl and his company were not pleased with the result of that Inquiry, but that has nothing to do with the Question which is before your Lordships this afternoon, which deals merely with the matter of research, and the Postmaster-General was glad to learn that no complaint was made regarding facilities for research or experiment which had been afforded by the Post Office or permitted by the Post Office up to now. I can assure the noble Earl, although it is difficult to give a general reply without knowing whether there is any specific complaint, that the Postmaster-General is always anxious in principle to assist the company in research operations so far as he can do so. His position of course has been well described by the late Postmaster-General as that of the policeman of the ether, and, as the noble Earl knows quite well, he has certain obligations in that respect, to see, for example, that experiments do not cause interference to other wireless stations which are operating; but, subject to that, he is perfectly willing to do everything he can do to assist or to permit research by this company.
In order that my answer may be as full as possible I have also communicated with the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and I am informed by them that they undertake, through their Radio Research Board, a considerable amount of radio research work which is of general interest and devoted to the study of the more fundamental problems, such as atmospherics and the
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theory of wave propagation—all matters of importance for long distance stations. Those investigations give rise to results which are very often of great importance, and they are made generally available to the community. They would, therefore, also of course be available to Imperial and International Communications, Limited, just as they would be available to any other company. More than that, the Department authorise me to say that they welcome co-operation in these investigations with the company, and that they would be glad to afford facilities for the research workers to exchange views on the problems. That seems to me to be a promise of very full co-operation.
I have only perhaps one word of caution to add, and that is to say that the Postmaster-General's answer is limited, and properly limited, to questions of research—real questions of research—and of the development of telephony, and must not be necessarily taken to pledge him in the future to anything in the nature of Press demonstrations or public advertisements or anything of that sort, which are quite apart from actual research. But so far as actual research is concerned the answer can be made without any qualification, and I hope that will satisfy the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl very much indeed for his sympathetic reply.
House adjourned at five minutes past five o'clock.