§ Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (EARL RUSSELL)My Lords, silicosis is the name given to a disease of the lungs caused by the inhalation of very minute particles of silica, from which it gets its name. The effect of this inhalation is to produce a fibrous and hardened condition of the soft spongy lung, which, as you will realise, is the 1187 apparatus for transmitting oxygen to the blood. The infection gradually increases until the matter becomes serious, and quite frequently ends in death. That condition is called fibrosis. This disease has been known for some time. I think I should be right in saying that it was first noticed in South Africa in connection with mining there, but it only became the subject of legislation in this country for the first time in 1918. That Bill, and another Bill dealing with it, subsequently found a place in an Act in 1925—the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925, to which I shall have to refer again in a moment.
This disease might naturally be supposed to be an industrial disease—one of the industrial diseases in the Workmen's Compensation Act—but it is not, and I understand perhaps for this reason, that the Workmen s Compensation Act in the matter of industrial diseases, like lead poisoning and nystagmus, assumes a disease which has arisen a short time before in the course of employment with the employer, who is made responsible for the consequences; but in the case of silicosis many years may pass before the disease develops and reaches serious dimensions. In addition to that, I understand that the diagnosis is rather difficult and that you can hardly expect the ordinary general practitioner, or even the ordinary factory surgeon, always to be quite certain about the diagnosis of silicosis. The matter is so complicated that it involves, as I understand, radiographs, and for that reason it was not found possible to include it as an ordinary industrial disease, but it was made the subject of compensation schemes, which your Lordships will understand, of course, are schemes by which the employers in the industry contribute to a central fund, which is available in cases of disability or death resulting from silicosis.
The diagnosis of silicosis has been improved considerably now by those who are expert in the matter, and provision in the Act of 1925 was made in Section 47 which gives the Secretary of State power to make schemes for the payment of compensation, and which provide for the employers subscribing to a fund for the settlement of claims, for medical officers and medical boards, and for requiring workmen to submit to examination. That last point is of very great importance, 1188 and naturally the concern of the Home Office is to prevent the disease if possible, rather than merely to pay compensation when it has reached a serious stage. Experience shows that if it is detected at an early stage, and the workman is then removed from the dust-contaminated atmosphere, it does not progress any further, and he has a reasonable chance of not having his health further impaired. Until you could say with certainty whether the disease existed or not, until, that is to say, the diagnosis was fairly certain, it was difficult to apply that test, but it is now felt that by an examination of workmen before they take up a dusty occupation to see whether they are likely to suffer much from it, and by a periodical examination while they are engaged in that occupation, and by removing them altogether from that occupation if it is seen that they have been affected, a great deal may be done to prevent the disease ever becoming serious. Schemes under Section 47 of the Act of 1925 have been made altogether in respect of four industries.
There has also been set up by the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, who was at the Home Office in the last Administration, a medical committee to enquire into the medical arrangements for the diagnosis of silicosis. That committee reported on September 17 last, and this Bill is practically the outcome of that report. It is proposed under this Bill by Clause 2 to set up medical boards, which shall deal with all cases of silicosis, not separate schemes each having their separate medical boards, but medical boards competent to deal with all cases of silicosis in all industries. And, of course, it is naturally proposed to merge into them and to employ those who already have experience of this disease and are competent to pronounce upon it. That is the principal object of Clause 2. Silicosis, although not in itself tuberculosis, produces a condition in the lungs which renders men more liable to be affected by the infection of tuberculosis. It is therefore very serious in that respect also.
The figures are rather incomplete, because the matter has not been under investigation very long, and accurate diagnosis is not very easy, but a table has been furnished to me showing the proportion of deaths occurring in the years 1927 and 1928 from certain industrial 1189 diseases. In the case of silicosis there were seventy-two cases of disablement and thirty-six deaths; in the case of lead poisoning there were 349 cases of disablement and twenty-one deaths; in the case of anthrax there were fifty-four disablements and nine deaths; and in the case of nystagmus, although there was much disablement your Lordships will not be surprised to hear there were only four deaths. Your Lordships will observe therefore that the fatality rate of this disease is really rather high, and it is a somewhat serious matter. The number of those who have actually died from it is fairly large. Medical officers of the Home Office, I think, are satisfied that many persons whose deaths have been certified as due to tuberculosis in previous years or to other tubercular affections really died from silicosis. The matter, therefore, seems very worthy of being dealt with.
Clause 2 of the Bill proposes to set up a general scheme applicable to all industries and processes and groups of industries to which compensation schemes apply for the purpose of co-ordinating the medical arrangements in connection with these compensation schemes. Then there come the provisions that may be made by the general scheme for the expenses fund, for the fees, and for securing that employers shall not employ in a process involving exposure to silica dust or asbestos dust, any workman who has been suspended on account of the state of his health, or who has not been submitted for examination, and that they shall give notice when they are going to use processes involving the creation of this dust; and necessary matters of that sort. It is thought that by ventilation and periodical inspection a great deal may be done to prevent the disease, Which is, of course, the desirable thing.
In Clause 1 it is provided that those measures which apply to workmen suffering from silicosis shall also extend to industries and processes involving exposure to asbestos dust. It has been discovered that asbestos dust produces somewhat similar effects. It produces a fibrosis of the lungs, which is akin to, but not the same as, fibrosis produced by silica, but it has somewhat the same results, although considerably slower in its action. It is, therefore, important that asbestos should also be included in the matters to be dealt with. Asbestos 1190 is a mineral of fibrous material, which contains a silicate, and it gives rise to a dust which has these evil consequences. Therefore Clause 1 provides that asbestos shall be treated in the same way as silica is treated, and that the same provisions shall apply to it.
The advisers of the Home Office go so far as to say that silicosis at the present time has probably more devastating effects than any other industrial disease, and that the rapidity with which it develops depends upon the quantity of dust to which the workman is exposed. It may take many years, but, where concentrations of dust are, it may terminate in death in from two and a half to four years. In the refractories industry alone since 1919 there have been 442 cases, including 131 cases of death. The total number of persons concerned in the silica industry is supposed to be about 60,000 to 70,000 and the number that will be brought in under the provisions as to asbestos is estimated at about 2,200. I think your Lordships will agree that clearly asbestos ought to be brought in. As to Clause 2, your Lordships will see that it really does not go beyond providing departmental machinery for the purpose of providing the best possible medical inspections under the best possible medical conditions by those who are able to pronounce that a disease is silicosis and who are able to recognise it in its early stages, so that it may be arrested. I beg to move that the Bill be now read 2a.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Russell.)
§ LORD ASKWITHMy Lords, I do not wish to obstruct the progress of this Bill, but I would ask the noble Earl to use his best efforts afterwards not to hurry on the Committee stage or the Report stage too speedily. This Bill is of the very utmost importance to certain classes of industry in this country. My information, although I have not got much medical knowledge, is that the disease is extremely difficult to diagnose; also that it may not arise a short time beforehand, but a long time beforehand. The industry in which I am particularly interested in this matter is the tin industry in Cornwall. There, if the deplorable price of the metal should rise sufficiently to enable the mines to continue, or to be 1191 opened, it is of the utmost importance that they should not be hampered with an undue amount of expenditure on boards or of other expenditure, and also that the miners themselves should not be suspended too much.
There are other industries, of course, where silica comes in, but this industry is particularly affected for the very reason that the noble Earl gave, that silicosis was first found to have come from the mines in Africa, and I believe that the effect of the silica is that it is like taking powdered glass. It gets into your inside, causes irritation and inflammation, and may not be discovered for a long time afterwards. But these miners would come from South Africa or from other places where silica mines are worked and come to Cornwall, and in Cornwall, although generally the mines may be without danger of silicosis, yet some of the other mines pass through granitic and other formations which do give out dust that may affect the lungs in this way. But although the lungs were affected, possibly, by a little bit of granitic formation in a Cornish tin mine, the disease itself may have arisen in South Africa and may have been hidden for years. It would be most unreasonable for the Cornish owner to have to pay the whole of the compensation for a disease that had arisen upon another man's property, that other man being somebody who could not be got at at all.
My reason for asking for some delay is this. I am aware that the owners of the tin mines in Cornwall, where efforts have been made comparatively recently to do something for an industry that is in great want of some success—and everyone would be glad to see the Cornish tin industry more living—are meeting to consider the effect of this Bill and what steps to take so as to protect their interests under any rules that may be made. They are also making arrangements for consulting with the miners who are also deeply interested in the same point. Therefore, I suggest for the noble Earl's consideration whether he can do anything in the matter of giving more time.
§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDMy Lords, I will not detain you many minutes. I had intended to speak at some little length on the subject of silicosis, but I will not do so this afternoon as there is 1192 other business on the Paper. But this is an important measure. This question gave me very great anxiety while I was at the Home Office, and I was responsible for making two or three of these Orders, The noble Earl will remember that in the case of two industries I was not satisfied with the means of ascertaining the temporary disablement, and I confined the compensation to permanent disablement or death. Those two Orders, I believe, are working satisfactorily. As the noble Earl has said, there are some 70,000 people employed in these various industries and, according to the figures he gave for the last ten years, there have been 131 deaths. That is an average of thirteen deaths a year. Therefore, the matter is not, perhaps, so urgently serious as the noble Earl suggested to the House.
There are one or two very grave objections to this legislation. Very considerable powers are already vested in the Secretary of State, as your Lordships know from the Orders which I made when I was at the Home Office. Very large powers of legislation are being given to him under the provisions of this Bill. My noble friend will remember that we have been discussing in and outside of Parliament for some few months past the desirability or otherwise of legislation by Ministers. Very large powers are to be given, as I have said, under the provisions of this Bill for enabling a compulsory fund (that is really the principle of the Bill) to be provided by a form of taxation on the industries, as to the amount of which the noble Earl has given us no particulars at all. Both of these industries are to be placed in that position, and before this House, or Parliament passes this Bill giving unlimited powers to a Secretary of State to make Orders relating to the institution of medical men, medical boards and advisory medical boards, and the provision of radiographic boards, all most expensive things, there should at least be given to the House some idea as to the lines on which the Secretary of State proposes to make the Orders and something like an estimate of the cost which is to be placed upon the industries.
I do not propose to weary your Lordships further with the matter to-day. I do not know that there is any desire on the part of members of the House to 1193 oppose the Second Reading, but I think they agree with the appeal made by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, that the Committee stage should not be taken at all events until after Easter. I think the Bill needs mach more consideration also in regard to the question of asbestos dust. That is really a very modern propoal. While I was at the Home Office certain questions were asked of me in another place, and there was very little information indeed in possession of the Home Office as to any appreciable ill effects from asbestos dust. The noble Earl has told us that there are only 2,000 men employed in that industry which might be the subject of that, but just by a stroke of the pen under Clause 1 he proposes to include any industry using asbestos or producing asbestos dust, under the provisions of the Act of 1925. Under this Bill another medical board and another advisory medical board might be established for this industry. That needs, I think, a little more consideration before your Lordships are asked to pass this Bill. In those circumstances, if the noble Earl will give, as I am sure he will, an undertaking not to take the Committee stage until after Easter, which would give an opportunity for further consideration, I shall not object to the Bill passing its Second Reading.
EARL RUSSELLMy Lords, I might deal with the last observation of the noble Viscount. I did not dwell on it because I thought, perhaps, he was familiar with it, but there has been a report made quite lately on the effects of asbestos dust by two medical men appointed by the Home Secretary. It goes very carefully into the matter and I am bound to say that I think it establishes the case. I do not know whether the noble Viscount has read the report.
§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDI have read it.
EARL RUSSELLPerhaps it will convince him if he does. As to the powers given to the Home Secretary the noble Viscount seems to have exercised them with discretion and successfully.
§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDI am not there now.
EARL RUSSELLAnd I see no reason why another Home Secretary should not do the same thing. He said that the Orders he made which did not provide 1194 for partial disablement were working satisfactorily. It depends in which sense you use the words "working satisfactorily." They are not working satisfactorily from the point of view of workmen who are partially disabled, and it is felt as a very definite grievance that, because they are partially disabled by silicosis instead of by lead poisoning, they will not be able to get compensation. It does not seem, in itself, to be equitable, that because it is one disease rather than another which partially disables a man he should not be able to get the compensation to which he is entitled.
So far as the noble Viscount asked for information, I will, of course, communicate with my right hon. friend and see what information can be obtained. Whether it is possible to form an estimate of the cost I am not sure, but that also I will enquire into. I certainly will endeavour to get all the information possible. But one of the objects, now that certainty of diagnosis appears to be established, was to procure compensation for those who were partially disabled. Of course, how much the compensation levy will be it is very difficult to say. Your Lordships will understand that it is merely that you are distributing among a group of employers engaged in a particular industry that burden which would otherwise fall on the particular employer under an industrial disease—I think that is a correct description. You are simply grouping these employers together because of the difficulty experienced in deciding in which particular employment, whether in that of A, B, or C, the disease has arisen, having regard to the length of time the disease may take to develop.
§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDMay I ask the noble Earl one question? The question of partial disablement does not arise on the Bill. Am I to gather from him that if the Bill is passed and if the medical boards proposed under the Bill are set up, the intention of the Home Secretary is to incorporate in the provisions for compensation an Order bringing in partial disablement throughout the whole of these industries?
EARL RUSSELLI cannot tell the noble Viscount that to-day, but I assure him that before the Committee stage I will ascertain that. But we do think that it really is a very small Bill in every 1195 way. It does not do much more than bring together the medical knowledge and apply it to the trades. But it does give certain power, which I think exists already under Section 47 of the Workmen's Compensation Act, of making these schemes and Orders. All the matters that the noble Viscount has raised have been carefully considered, and in order to meet his wishes I would propose to take Committee stage after Easter, say on May 1, if that would be convenient.
§ On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.