RECONSTITUTED CREAM BILL. (Hansard, 7 May 1929)

HL Deb 07 May 1929 vol 74 cc410-41 410

§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.

§ House in Committee accordingly.

§ [The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

§ Clause 1:

§ Regulation of sale of reconstituted cream.

§ 1.—(1) Reconstituted cream shall not be sold or offered or exposed for sale for human consumption under any description or designation including the word "cream" unless that word is immediately preceded by the word "reconstituted."

§ (2) Every receptacle used for the conveyance of reconstituted cream for sale for human consumption, or containing reconstituted cream at any time when it is exposed for such sale, shall have the words "reconstituted cream" printed in large and legible type either on the receptacle itself or on a label securely attached thereto.

§ (3) If any person contravenes any of the provisions of this section he shall be guilty of an offence against this Act.

§ LORD CLINTON moved to leave out subsection (1) and to insert:— (1) No person shall sell or offer or expose for sale for human consumption under a description or designation including the word 'cream,' any substance purporting to be cream or reconstituted cream as defined in this Act unless— 411

(a) the substance is cream as defined in this Act, or
(b) where the substance is reconstituted cream as defined in this Act, the word 'cream' is immediately preceded by the word 'artificial.'"

§ The noble Lord said: This Amendment has the object of making it perfectly plain that no substance can be sold, supplied or exposed for sale as cream which is not cream as defined in the Act, that is the natural article, and if it is reconstituted cream as defined in Clause 6, that it is sold only as artificial cream. My objection is mainly to the word" reconstituted," because it is a word of somewhat unknown meaning. What it will convey to a purchaser I do not know. He might be supplied with butter or some super-cream, and he would not then be getting what he desired to get. Another objection is that it is not, in fact, reconstituted cream at all. Cream is a natural product and once it has been converted into something else you will never get it back to cream again. The substances out of which this reconstituted cream is made are mainly butter and powdered milk. You cannot give back to these things certain constituents which they have lost in the process of treatment or manufacture either before or during emulsification.

§ I am not proposing to alter the title of the Bill. The words "reconstituted cream" will remain in the title only because that is the term under which this particular substance is known, and I think it will be sufficient protection to the trade if it is clearly understood that this artificial cream under the name by which it is sold is not really cream at all. The farmer would think himself entitled, perhaps, to better protection, and that provision should be made for not selling this cream at all; but I do not think it is possible for your Lordships to prevent what is really a not unreasonable competition so long as it is certain that there is no confusion in the minds of those who purchase the article. I have chosen the term "artificial" because it seems to me the best that we can find. My noble friend Lord Strachie proposes that the substance shall be called imitation cream. My objection to "imitation" is that it does not convey to my mind what this substance is. Imitation cream would be rather in the nature of synthetic cream, and synthetic 412 cream is already provided for under a different Act. My noble friend Lord Bledisloe prefers the term "manufactured," and that is more nearly my Amendment. It is a matter upon which a choice can easily be made; but I still prefer as more typical and descriptive of what is really a creamy substance the term "artificial cream."

§ When my noble friend Lord Strachie was moving his Amendment to the Motion for Second Beading at the last sitting of your Lordships' House, he said, quite correctly, that the National Farmers Union and the Central Landowners Association had resolved against this measure. But as I think I suggested at the time, their feeling was not against the principle of the Bill but because they thought, and I think correctly thought, that the Bill as it stood did not carry out what they desired in connection with this matter. Since the last sitting of your Lordships' House I have had an opportunity of meeting representatives both of the National Farmers Union and the Central Landowners Association and they have agreed that this is an Amendment which should be passed. If it is passed, although it may not do all that is required, they think it will make the Bill effective and that it will give a necessary protection to the dairy industry. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 1, line 6, leave out subsection (l) and insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Clinton.)

THE LORD CHAIRMAN
In order to save the rights of later Amendments I will just put: "In Clause 1, page 1, line 6, to leave out the figure (1)."

THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE EARL OF ONSLOW)
Perhaps I could shorten the discussion if I were to say a word or two indicating the departmental view of the Ministry of Health on this subject, and when I say the departmental view I mean it is purely the opinion of the Department, and that I am not giving to your Lordships the considered opinion of His Majesty's Government. I do not think I need trouble your Lordships with more than a few words, because what I have to say refers solely to the different alternatives which appear in various Amendments down in the name of noble Lords to be substituted for the word "reconstituted." It 413 is true, I think, that the term "reconstituted cream" is not an absolutely accurate description, because the reconstituted cream never really has been cream at all. What is done is that a substance practically similar to cream is made from ingredients all of which are found in natural cream. That is how I am advised it is made; it is not my own opinion that I am giving. I understand that my noble friend Lord Bledisloe disagrees. I am told there are vitamins in it and that it cannot be distinguished from cream by any known process, either physical or chemical, or in any other way. At least I am credibly informed that is the case.
It is not really a composite cream, or an imitation cream, or an artificial cream. Although I quite agree that all those epithets might apply to it, if we were to use them I think, perhaps, they would be likely to lead to confusion. Take, for instance, ice cream. Ice cream is a manufactured cream, and there are other manufactured creams which really do not bear any relation to cream at all. Therefore the Ministry of Health think that the words "reconstituted cream" with all their defects should be retained, because the term does not mean anything else which is sold under the name of cream, and, therefore, departmentally, we prefer this designation to the other various alternatives that noble Lords have put down. We feel that there is a definite objection to using a word which might possibly lead to confusion in regard to some other composite or manufactured cream. We think there would be less chance of this happening if the words now in the Bill, which have been submitted to a great deal of consideration, were retained. It is thought those words would be less likely to lead to ambiguity and would carry out the intention of the Bill better than any one of the other alternatives which have been put down.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE
I hope your Lordships will not approve the suggestion which the noble Earl has just thrown out. As was pointed out on the Second Reading, and as the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, has forcibly pointed out this afternoon, this is not reconstituted cream, because it has never been cream. You cannot reconstitute a thing which in some prior existence has never in fact been what it is now said to be under the name of "reconstituted." It is not 414 cream, at least not cream as we always understand natural cream, which is the result of skimming or separating cream from cow's milk, and it is not reconstituted. Therefore, if it is not reconstituted, why should we, either in the title or in the body of the Bill, call it what it is not? Of course the people who are mainly opposing this are the dairy farmers of this country. My noble friend Lord Clinton has already pointed out that reconstituted cream may suggest something in the nature of a super-cream. There is nothing in the term "reconstituted" to suggest that it is not natural cream, perfectly good for invalids and infants and all other persons who may be recommended to take cream or milk from which cream is derived.
I cannot believe that it is beyond human ingenuity to discover some term which, perhaps, is not quite so detrimental to the manufacturers as either "artificial" on the one hand or "imitation" on the other, and yet which would protect both the producer, whom we have specially in our minds, and the consumer, against the use of a term which might conceivably, and which certainly in my judgment would do harm to the former and might do harm to the latter also. As regards the expression which Lord Clinton has advocated, I am not at all sure that this is altogether artificial cream. It depends again on what you mean by cream and what you mean by milk. I found fault with the interpretation clause because it used "milk" in a sense in which we do not all use the term; at any rate you can have cocoa-nut milk and you can have milk which is synthetic. Why the term "synthetic" should be confined to a vegetable product I do not know, but this undoubtedly is a synthetic article. It is synthetic cream—if you like, a synthetic product of milk that comes from two different sources, but I am not at all sure if you use "milk" in the larger sense as covering every sort of milk that, necssarily, it is artificial milk, or, if you abstract cream from it, that it is, necessarily, artificial cream. That is why I prefer the term "manufactured"; but for goodness sake do not let us have "reconstituted."
I would rather adopt Lord Harris's suggestion and put an initial K instead of the C, if you cannot meet the 415 case in any other way, but I think, if there was one thing that was made perfectly clear during the Second Reading of this Bill, it was that the whole House was opposed to calling this particular product reconstituted. I think the House was doubtful about calling it cream, but we were all apparently unanimous in thinking it was not reconstituted, because, in fact, according to the ordinary interpretation of that word, it is wholly inapplicable. I hope that rather than accept the suggestion of the noble Earl who represents the Ministry of Health in this House you will throw out this Bill on Third Beading.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
With regard to the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, I am perfectly prepared to accept it, but, like Lord Bledisloe, I myself rather prefer the term "manufactured." "Artificial" to my mind seems to call up a substance which is not actually cream, but something entirely different. This substance, as we have already been told, is indistinguishable from cream by analysis, and, to my mind, "manufactured" seems to meet the case better. However, I am prepared to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, but I hope he will agree to the use of the word "manufactured" instead of "artificial."

§ LORD DYNEVOR
After the speech of my noble friend Lord Cranbrook I am not quite sure where we stand. I understand he accepts the Amendment with the word "artificial" and then suggests that we should put in the word "manufactured." Personally, I much prefer the word "artificial." I think it is a much better word than "manufactured," and would clear the whole case up very well. I quite agree with my noble friend Lord Bledisloe that we cannot leave the word "reconstituted" in the Bill as it stands. I hope my noble friend Lord Cranbrook will accept "artificial" and not allow "manufactured" to go in.

§ LORD STRACHIE
I quite appreciate the force of some of the objections raised on Second Reading to the word "reconstituted." On the other hand, I cannot help thinking that this Amendment goes too far. The impression I have got from the agriculturists among whom I move is that they entirely object to the word "cream" being used in regard to this production. They object entirely. 416 It is equally important that no name should be used which would deceive the consumer. I must say that it does not seem to me that my noble friend Lord Clinton adds very much to the strength of his argument when he says that a member of the National Farmers Union and a member of the Central Landowners Association met only yesterday or the day before and have gone behind the unanimous decision of the council of the National Farmers Union and the unanimous decision of the council of the Central Landowners Association. I do not think that on other occasions he would have approved at all if someone in your Lordships' House said that a decision of the councils of these bodies was wrong because Mr. So-and-so from the National Farmers Union and somebody from the Central Landowners Association did not approve of it.
I admit that Mr. Robbins—I imagine that is the gentleman Lord Clinton means; he will contradict me if that is not so—is a very able man and a very influential man in the National Farmers Union, but he is not a dairy man and has no interest in that branch of agriculture. We in the West of England do not forget that it was owing to Mr. Robbins that we had those Milk and Dairy Orders put upon us which, if strictly carried out in the West of England, would have meant ruin to all except the large landowners like Lord Clinton. Smallholders have told me that if they had had to carry out those regulations they would have been ruined. I know that the Somerset branch of the National Farmers Union—the largest branch, with a membership of nearly 7,000, of which I am a humble member—were unanimously against the action of headquarters in approving those Milk and Dairy Orders. I repudiate the idea that a gentleman who, however able, is not a dairyman can at all appreciate what we want. Therefore I venture to think that it is hardly a proper thing for the noble Lord to come here and say that it does not matter what the council of the National Farmers Union decided because Mr. Robbins now takes another view and is quite content to have this Amendment. Then he goes on to say that it does not matter what the Council of the Central Landowners Association has decided be- 417 cause someone—I do not know whom, but some member—is satisfied with this Amendment. I venture to think that that will not carry great weight in the council of the National Farmers Union or the council of the Central Landowners Association.
I do not know really what is the best course to adopt in this matter. I quite appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, has gone a certain way to meet those who have a strong objection to this Bill, and of course we know what happened on Second Reading. The Government threw it over and said they had no responsibility for it, and it was only carried owing to the great popularity and undoubted ability of the noble Marquess who leads the House, assisted by the Labour Peers. It is a difficult thing to know what to do in this particular matter. I am almost inclined to think that it might be a good thing to pass Lord Clinton's Amendment, which does go some way to meet the opposition, and then when it becomes a substantive Motion we might move a further Amendment to it. But it is a very difficult question at the present moment and we have had very little time in which to consider the Bill because it has been rushed upon us at the end of the Session. I noticed only the other day some remarks of the noble Marquess who leads the House about the way in which Bills come before your Lordships, and this is a case in which we cannot give real consideration to the Bill. Undoubtedly everyone in your Lordships' House is anxious to see a Bill passed which will adequately and properly protect both the producer and the consumer, but the difficulties are very great because of the way in which the Bill has been rushed upon us at the end of the Session.

LORD ST. LEVAN
The solution of the difficulty seems so obvious that there must be some very good reason for not adopting it. Why not leave out the word "cream" altogether and put in another word so as to avoid the possibility of any purchaser buying this compound thinking it is cream? That solution is so obvious that there must be some good reason against employing it and I should like to know what it is.

LORD O'HAGAN
I should like to make a very few observations because I happen to be Chairman of the Central 418 and Associated Chambers of Agriculture which have twice considered this Bill. I very much regret that I was prevented from being present in the House when this Bill was considered on Second Reading, because it would have been my duty on that occasion to have explained to your Lordships the views of that organisation—an organisation which represents all sections of those engaged in agriculture—with regard to this question. I think I may say that it is quite appreciated by that organisation that some such Bill is necessary at the present time, but the feeling with regard to it, to which expression was given only this morning, is that the Bill—if I may be allowed to depart From the strict limits of discussion in Committee—is so deplorably badly drafted that it will not carry out the intentions of the promoters. I am strengthened in that opinion by the attitude taken up by the National Farmers Union. It was felt desirable by the organisation which I represent that this Bill should be opposed on Second Reading, not with the view of destroying any legislation on the same lines, but because this particular Bill would not be effective in achieving its object. At the same time it was realised that if your Lordships gave the Bill a Second Reading it was most desirable that it should receive most drastic amendment.
That opinion was reiterated this morning at a meeting of the council and great emphasis was laid on the point which I was glad to hear raised by my noble friend Lord St. Levan. The whole point is that the word "cream" should not be used in connection with an article which is not cream but is popularly understood to be cream. If that point could be dealt with I am quite sure that the organisation for which I am speaking would be satisfied. That some drastic amendment is necessary is the very strong opinion of the farmers represented by that organisation. Speaking for myself, I have had some experience in the past as a dairy farmer, and I think it is perfectly true to say that the agricultural community feels that some drastic amendment which would get over this difficulty of the use of the word "cream" would be appreciated by them, not merely in the interests of the producers, but also in the interests of the consumers, whom I am sure your Lordships feel every interest in protecting in this matter.

419

KARL BUXTON
I think I have seldom heard a Bill more damned by various speakers, and especially by those who supported it on Second Reading. It is quite clear, I think, that every member of your Lordship's House desires the Bill as introduced to be drastically altered. The difficulty is to know how to alter the Bill drastically when it includes in its title the words "reconstituted cream" and when its sole object is to enable this particular product to be sold under that name. That difficulty has to be met, but unless it is met this Bill will, I think, do more harm than good. Many of your Lordships have looked at this matter from the point of view of the farmer. I find it is a little difficult to decide whether any person interested in farming would support this Bill, but I am more interested in the question of the consumer. Undoubtedly this Bill, if it goes forward without very radical and almost destructive amendment, will enable the producers of this so-called cream to continue to deceive the consumer with much greater effect than before, if we give them statutory liberty to use a phrase which is in itself a deception. My noble friend Lord Clinton has really proposed to reconstitute the Bill altogether. His Amendment does away with some of the most objectionable parts of the Bill, but it still uses the word "reconstituted."

§ LORD CLINTON
Only in the definition. We say that reconstituted cream is to be called "artificial cream."

§ EARL BUXTON
What I want to make clear is that, while we are inclined on the whole to think that Lord Clinton's Amendment as it stands would be better than the Bill in its present form, we want to enter a caveat against the word "reconstituted" appearing in the Bill at all. The noble Earl who represents the Ministry for the time being said that exports had considered the matter and that words like "artificial," "imitation" and "manufactured" were not so clear as the word "reconstituted." I do not think that "imitation" is a good word, and I think that perhaps "substitute cream" might meet the case; but at any rate the alternatives appear to be better than the word "reconstituted." At all events any of them will show that this is not cream in the ordinary acceptance of the term, whereas, if we leave in the word "reconstituted," we make it 420 seem as if this were a sort of super-cream, instead of not really being cream at all. I cannot think of a worse word than "reconstituted," and accordingly, while my noble friends and I are inclined to support Lord Clinton's Amendment as being better than the Bill as it stands, it should be clearly understood that, if we vote for it on a Division, it is on the understanding that the terms of it are open for reconsideration in various ways. As my noble friend Lord Strachie has said, many of us would prefer to make it clear that this artificial cream cannot be sold as cream at all. It is on those conditions that we support this Amendment.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW
I should like to explain a point which I think the noble Earl has failed to appreciate. The other adjectives that have been suggested might lead to confusion. They have been used for existing substances, whereas the phrase "reconstituted cream" has never been brought forward before, and accordingly it would not lead to so much confusion.

§ THE EARL OF ANCASTER
If I might intervene for one minute, I think that many of us are doubtful about this Bill and personally I should like to have further explanation. I understand that there is a great deal of this substance, whatever it may in future be called, sold in London and the big towns at the present time, and that the main ingredient of it is cream. This cream, instead of being sold as cream, is sent to London and the big cities as butter, and is then turned again from butter into cream. Other articles may be added, though I do not know to what extent. I should like to know whether Lord Bledisloe is absolutely correct when he tells us that this stuff never was cream and never will be cream. I thought that the main portion of this beverage, which the British public are consuming now and will probably consume in the future, was cream which had been turned into butter and back into cream, just as water is turned into steam and condensed back into water. I think that we ought to be better informed on this point, especially after the speeches that we have heard.
The noble Earl who represents the Ministry of Health tells us that they much prefer the word "reconstituted," which certainly, if the article ever was cream 421 and is turned back into cream again, seems to be the best word. If on the other hand it never was cream, but is entirely made up of other substances, then I should think the word "artificial" would be better. At any rate, we should like a little information as to whether cream is one of the main ingredients of this mixture or not. If so, I think that "reconstituted" is the proper word.

§ LORD DANESFORT
There appears to be a large measure of agreement on both sides of the House—and I entirely share it—that the word "reconstituted" is a very misleading one from the point of view both of the dairy farmer, who is thereby subjected to unfair competition, and of the consumer, who is very apt, indeed almost certain, to be misled. The word "reconstituted" in this connection seems to me a wholly wrong expression. It is most likely to convey to the consumer the idea of some kind of improved cream, if it conveys anything at all. If you consider another connection in which the word is used, we often speak of a re constituted Second Chamber, and thereby mean, as I think rightly, an improved Second Chamber. "Reconstituted cream," such as has been described by Lord Bledisloe and others, is certainly not an improved cream—very far from it. Whether it is a desirable substance or not I do not know, but the expression is a wrong one. I have read Lord Clinton's Amendment with great interest, and it appears to me that it offers a reasonable protection to the dairy farmer on the one hand and to the consumer on the other. I therefore trust that your Lordships will accept this proposal, and then at a later stage perhaps you can decide whether we shall use the term "artificial," which appears to me to be on the whole the best, or "manufactured." That this Amendment is an immense improvement of the Bill as it stands in the interests of dairy farmer and consumer alike is, so far as my judgment is of any value, not in doubt.

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)
Something has been said in your Lordships' hearing this afternoon of the great agricultural organisations and of the attitude which they have adopted towards this Bill. They seem to have passed through several phases, but really, although I have great respect for these organisations, as I need 422 not say, I do not think that your Lordships need give conclusive weight to those opinions. We really contain among ourselves authorities on this subject who are amply qualified to speak and have every reason to command your Lordships' confidence. We have my noble friend Lord Clinton, a great authority on all agricultural topics, who has put this Amendment before the Committee. The mere fact that he has proposed it would have great weight with me. But we also have the circumstance that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill has accepted the Amendment, so far as he is concerned.
Of course, no one could have listened to the debate this afternoon without being convinced that this question of adjectives is rather a difficult one. A great many adjectives have been suggested, and my noble friend who represents the Ministry of Health has said that so far as his Department are concerned they prefer the word "reconstituted." This is not a Government Bill. It is not a Bill in which the Government is at all interested, one way or another, and so far as I am concerned no influence that I possess will be used to induce the House, or any member of the House, to vote either way. Everybody will vote just as he wishes, but, personally, I am inclined to support the Amendment, because I think the weight of the arguments to which I have listened is in its favour. I do not say that you can fix upon any adjective which will be entirely satisfactory, not because of the difficulties of cream, but because of the infirmities of the English language. We must, however, do our best, and I think that the word "artificial" put before "cream" will convince everybody that the substance is not cream. I cannot imagine anybody being deceived into thinking that he is buying cream if the adjective put before the word "cream" is "artificial." It has been suggested that we should get rid of the word "cream," but can you find anything else to take its place? We do not do business in this House in that way, by taking out a word and putting nothing in its place. Consequently, that alternative is not open, and the use of the words "artificial cream" seems to me to be as near a solution as we are likely to get. Therefore, without at all prejudging what your Lordships may do at a later stage, if we go to a Division I shall support the Amendment.

423

LORD HARRIS
May I intervene for a moment to say that I am somewhat tired of all this argument about adjectives, and about the use of the word "cream." It seems to me that it is so absolutely simple to adopt a composite word, a thing which is so often done in mercantile affairs. It will simply imply that there is something like cream about the substance. There is a wholesome and palatable substance manufactured in my county which is spelt with the letter "k," and if the words "milk kreme" were used the whole Bill, as drafted, could remain as it is. It is just as good a word as "Waulkenphast," which has lasted for many decades in this country, and the picture of the gentleman going at a great pace is common to us all. This will get you out of all the difficulties of etymology, and to go on arguing about etymological exactitudes seems to me to be unnecessary.

LORD RAYLEIGH
Might I suggest a more prosaic term than that suggested by the last speaker? Why not call it "cream substitute"?

§ LORD TREOWEN
Reference has been made by several noble Lords to an opinion expressed at a large meeting of the Central Landowners Association. As I happen to have been in the chair, perhaps it is as well for me to state the feeling there. I do not wish to take a greater authority than the noble Marquess the Leader of the House is prepared to accept. I admit that there are others quite able to give an opinion. The decision was very simple and was plainly expressed by Lord St. Levan. They objected to the use of the word "cream," and if that word can be got rid of I think it will be the simplest way out of the difficulty. I quite appreciate the difficulty there is in striking out that word, and on account of that difficulty I am rather prepared to accept the Amendment put forward by Lord Clinton, upon the understanding that we might possibly deal with the use of the word "cream" by way of a verbal Amendment to his Amendment. I do not think your Lordships will get very much further if we continue to discuss an adjectival form of Amendment. I doubt whether we shall ever arrive at an agreement upon it, and therefore I feel inclined to support Lord Clinton's Amendment.

424

§ THE MARQUESS OF READING
I am not quite sure where we are. I only rise to take part in the discussion because, as the debate proceeded, I rather thought I was back again on the Bench, in a Divisional Court, listening to arguments as to the construction of an Act of Parliament. One thing is clear from the discussion, and that is that the word "reconstituted" is not the right one. Of that there seems to be no doubt, in spite of the experts of the Department. It must be wrong, because it conveys an impression which is admitted on all hands to be a wrong one. The point which we are discussing is not the exact words of Lord Clinton's Amendment, but what adjective we are to use, and that does not seem to be of much use, if we are going to have the discussion all over again in trying to arrive at a proper adjective. I think "artificial" is on the whole the best word, because it does convey to a purchaser that it is an artificial substance—a substance meant to imitate the real substance. That is a protection to the consumer and also to the farmer, which is what I suppose we are seeking. Lord Harris's suggestion is very ingenious, but it has this disadvantage that it is more deceptive than any other suggestion which has been made, because anyone going to purchase what is called "milk kreme" does not look to see whether cream is spelt with a "k" or not. All he knows is that it is pronounced like cream. On the whole, having listened to the debate, in which everybody has tried to elucidate the problem, I agree with the noble Marquess the Leader of the House that "artificial" is the best word.

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
According to the dictionary "butterine" is the proper word for artificial butter. I therefore suggest that this substance should be called "creamine."

§ LORD CLINTON
I only rise for the purpose of dealing with a correction from Lord Strachie. He is frequently good enough to correct me, and I usually accept his corrections; but I am not in the least penitent on this occasion. He rather objected to my saying that at some meeting the National Farmers Union had departed from a decision at which they had previously arrived, and he used the name of Mr. Bobbins as being the villain of the piece. My meeting 425 was with the Chairman, the Secretary, and Mr. Robbins, all of the National Farmers Union, and they all agreed on behalf of their union that this Amendment should be moved, and that they would accept it as a distinct improvement in the Bill in the interests of the farmers.

§ LORD STRACHIE
I do not think that that explanation makes any difference. The noble Lord only quotes the ipse dixit of Mr. Robbins and says that the Farmers Union have changed their minds.

§ LORD CLINTON
It was the noble Lord who brought in Mr. Robbins's name; I never used it at all.

§ LORD STRACHIE
I challenged the noble Lord to contradict me if I was wrong in saying that I understood Mr. Robbins and some other gentlemen had met the noble Lord only a day or two ago privately to discuss this question, and I say again that, however important someone is, he has no right to go behind the decision of the council of the National Farmers Union.

§ On Question, Amendment to leave out subsection (1) agreed to.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN
The Question now is that the new subsection (1), standing in the name of Lord Clinton, be here inserted.

§ LORD STRACHIE moved, as an Amendment to the Amendment, to leave out "or reconstituted cream as defined in this Act." The noble Lord said: I desire to amend this Amendment, which is now part of the Bill.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN
No, it is proposed to be inserted in the Bill. The noble Lord moves the Amendment to the Amendment before it is inserted.

§ LORD STRACHIE
Lord Clinton's Amendment would then read as follows: No person shall sell or offer or expose for sale for human consumption under a description or designation including the word ' cream ' any substance purporting to be cream. There is undoubtedly a feeling among agriculturists, as has been shown in speeches on the other side of the House, that it is entirely wrong that this reconstituted stuff should be called cream at all, and that another name ought to be found for it. The three great bodies 426 which I have already quoted are undoubtedly of that opinion. The Central Chamber of Agriculture only to-day expressed the opinion that they did not like the Bill at all, but, as it had already passed the Second Reading, the only thing was to amend it by striking out the word "cream." But I have also got another authority. This morning at the Dairy Committee of the Royal Agricultural Society this question was raised, and that body was unanimously of opinion that the description of the article called reconstituted cream should not contain the word "cream." Everyone who was there took exactly the same line as was taken by the other bodies I have mentioned, and as; has been taken in this House to-day—namely, that it is a fraud on the producer and the consumer to call this stuff cream when it is not cream.
Margarine was at first called "butterine," but legislation was introduced to forbid any name of that sort, and it has to be described under fancy names which have nothing to do with butter. I understand it is difficult to find a name for this substance. You might call it "Argentine," because Lord Bledisloe told us that it comes mainly from Argentine butter. The noble Lord told us that this stuff is made from material that comes entirely from overseas, and the name "cream" will be to the prejudice of British farmers. I think some name could be found. I believe the name "margarine" was taken from the Christian name of the wife of the professor who invented the substance. We might take the Christian names of some of the promoters of this Bill, and thus they would be handed down to posterity. I feel certain that the agriculturists of this country will support me to a man in saying that under no consideration whatever would they have reconstituted cream called cream at all.

§ Amendment to the Amendment moved— Lines 4 and 5, leave out ("or reconstituted cream as defined in this Act").—(Lord Strachie.)

THE EARL OF ONSLOW
My Lords, I must point but—and I am speaking on a little firmer ground than I did just now—that if you do this you will stop the sale of any cream, whether reconstituted, artificial or composite, and we shall not be able to get any cream at all. 427 It would be as rare as plovers' eggs. The noble Lord will share with Lord Buckmaster the honour of abolishing a popular article of food. I think the noble Lord must have really misunderstood the Amendment. But still, as the noble Marquess the Leader of the House said, we must give this stuff a name. The noble Lord has not suggested anything except "Argentine," but he has not put it on the Paper. But when we come to a later Amendment he proposes to call it "liquid butter"; I shall have something to say on that subject. I think if you put in the word "artificial" that is going a great deal further than "reconstituted." "Reconstituted" may be a vague and ambiguous term, and if you call it "artificial cream" that may not be a correct description of this substance, but it makes it perfectly clear that it is not natural cream. You must call it something. Therefore, I think you would do well to stick to the Amendment on the Paper.

§ LORD MILDMAY OF FLETE
Would not the position be met by the omission of paragraph (b) of Lord Clinton's Amendment? You would then simply say that people shall not call cream what is not cream.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE
The decision which we seem to have unanimously reached, with the exception of the noble Earl on the front Bench, is that we shall not refer to the term "reconstituted" in any part of this Bill. For my own part I cannot see why we should. If, wherever "reconstituted" appears in the original draft of the Bill, we substitute the word "artificial," which is the word apparently that we are prepared to accept as a substitute, I do not see that the difficulty which the noble Earl has adumbrated need be feared. If your Lordships were to put in the word "artificial" where the word "reconstituted" now appears in the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Clinton I think it would produce the effect desired. The result of that will be, of course, that no substance shall be sold as cream unless in fact, first of all, it is cream and, secondly, where the substance is an artificial cream as defined in this Bill, the word "cream" is immediately preceded by the word "artificial." Surely that is the logical sequence of what we have all just unanimously decided.

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§ LORD CLINTON
I should be prepared to approve of that alteration, but my only reason for leaving the words "reconstituted cream" in the Bill at all was that it is a known substance and has been traded in under that name. My fear is that it may still be thought that reconstituted cream as made at present is saleable, and that the word "artificial" only applies to some other form of cream. I thought that was sufficient reason for leaving "reconstituted" in. If it is not so, the deletion of the term "reconstituted" throughout the Bill and the substitution for it of "artificial" will certainly meet my point.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I do not want to prolong this discussion. I want, if I can, to make a suggestion as to how it is best for your Lordships to keep in proper order. The Amendment before us, moved quite hastily of course by the noble Lord opposite, evidently he will not press, because, as my noble friend very properly pointed out, it would prevent anybody selling cream of any sort, natural as well as any other kind of cream. Therefore, no doubt, that Amendment will immediately fall to the ground. I may say incidentally that the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Bledisloe would have been in order had it been orginally suggested to strike out the word "reconstituted" right through and to put in the word "artificial." We have now got past that point, as I think my noble friend will find. In that case it will have to be done, I think, on the next stage of the Bill. I may be wrong about that; but I suggest to your Lordships that we should at any rate begin by disposing of the Amendment which is before us.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE
With all respect to my noble friend the Leader of the House, I understood from the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees that he so put Lord Clinton's Amendment as to save the subsequent Amendments and to save this particular issue.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN
Yes, to save them; but Lord Clinton's Amendment to omit subsection (1) was agreed to, and for that reason this new subsection is now proposed. Of course, the Amendments to subsection (2) can be taken.

§ EARL BUXTON
In reference to what the noble Marquess the Leader of the House said, is it not always the case that 429 the title—and this word first appears in the title—is always postponed until after the whole Bill has been dealt with? If that is so, we have not yet actually arrived at the word "reconstituted" at all. In those circumstances there would be no difficulty when we reach it in substituting for it the word "artificial." One point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, was of importance I thought, and I should like to have guidance with regard to it. As I understand it, this article is actually being sold under the title of reconstituted cream, and unless some reference is made to that in the Bill it may be held that this Bill will apply to anything else but not to reconstituted cream. If that is so, it ought to be dealt with in some clause of the Bill, probably the Definition Clause: because people ought not to be allowed to continue to sell reconstituted cream after the Bill is passed.

§ LORD CLINTON
That was the sole reason for leaving the word "reconstituted" in the title. As the substance will always have to be sold as artificial cream it did not appear to those of us who framed this Amendment that it would really affect the matter.

§ EARL BUXTON
It is a point of substance. I think your Lordships are agreed that this reconstituted cream should be no longer allowed to be sold under that name and should only be sold under the title of artificial. It is not possible, perhaps, to deal with this matter at this stage, but possibly between now and the Report stage the noble Earl will look into it and see whether something can be put into the Bill to deal with it.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
I believe it would be possible to change the name of the substance in the Bill; but I will certainly look into it between now and the Report stage.

§ LORD STRACHIE
As I understand that the feeling of the House is against me, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment. I will move instead to leave out the word "reconstituted" and insert "artificial."

§ Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Amendment to the Amendment moved— Line 4, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

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§ LORD CLINTON
My objection, as I have already stated in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Buxton, is that I am rather concerned about this: If you leave out "reconstituted," you may not prevent the sale of that particular article. People may say that the article which you are trying to stop is something different to what is known in the trade as reconstituted cream. I think there is some danger of that, and I would suggest to my noble friend Lord Strachie that he should leave that until we have had time to consider whether we are not really putting ourselves in a worse position by omitting any reference to this cream the sale of which we wish to prevent.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE
I am afraid I was under the impression that I was just now supporting the Amendment which my noble friend Lord Strachie has now moved, and I must apologise to my noble friend the Leader of the House for misleading the House in that connection. Although it is conceivable, particularly since this Bill first made its appearance in another place, that some of this substance has been sold as reconstituted cream, the greater part of it has undoubtedly been sold as cream simpliciter. It is against that I will not say fraud, but widespread deception, that this Bill is framed. If that is so, and if we are all agreed that reconstituted cream as referred to in the original draft of this Bill is not reconstituted at all, cannot we even at this stage get rid of the expression altogether and use the word we are all prepared to substitute for it—namely, "artificial"? After all, what we want to prevent is the purchase by the public of something as cream which is not cream. That would be fully achieved if we substituted "artificial" for "reconstituted." I should like to support my noble friend Lord Strachie.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW
I think that is the correct method. It would probably complicate matters if we had the two words, "reconstituted" and "artificial." I think the advice of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe is the simplest and the safest.

§ THE MARQUESS OF READING
It would carry out all that we intend if the word "artificial" was substituted for "reconstituted" in line 4 and the substitution was made again when you come to the definition. The effect is this. There 431 are two things which have to be defined; that is to say, there is a prohibition against the sale of the substance as "cream as defined in this Act," or where the substance is artificial cream as defined in this Act, and so on. You have to define it, whether you call it reconstituted or artificial. It is much better to deal with the term you intend to use and to call it straightaway "artificial" and so define "artificial" as you intended to define "reconstituted." The matter is simple.

§ LORD CLINTON
Am I to understand that the noble Marquess is telling your Lordships that by dealing only with the term "artificial" you will in fact prevent the sale of reconstituted cream?

§ THE MARQUESS OF READING
The point as I follow it is that the word has to be defined by what it is that you must sell. As the epithet whatever it is—whether it is artificial or reconstituted—is to be defined, that would cover both, and so long as your definition is wide enough, as it obviously must be, to cover reconstituted as well as artificial you are perfectly clear.

§ LORD CLINTON
I am much obliged to the noble Marquess.

§ On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.

§ Amendment to the Amendment, moved— Line 8, leave out (" reconstituted ") and insert (" artificial ").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.

LORD O'HAGAN
May I ask whether in the event of this Amendment being inserted in the Bill the suggestion of any alternative name for the substance in question would be in order at a subsequent stage?

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
Certainly.

§ EARL BUXTON
I understand that you are putting in the words "cream is immediately preceded by the word artificial?"

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
We shall get into great confusion if we do not obey the Orders of the House. I think it is all right, but if it is not right we shall put it right on Report.

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§ On Question, Amendment to insert the new subsection, as amended, agreed to.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE had given Notice to move, in subsection (2), to leave out "reconstituted" and insert "manufactured." The noble Lord said: Subject to its being open to me to move an alternative word on the next stage I do not move now.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN
I will now put as drafting Amendments the Amendments proposed in lines 12, 13 and 14:

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 1, line 12, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial")

§ Page 1,line 13, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial")

§ Page 1,line 14, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 2:

§ Registration of premises where reconstituted cream is manufactured or sold.

§ 2.—(1) Reconstituted cream shall not be manufactured sold or exposed or kept for sale for human consumption except at premises registered with the Food and Drugs Authority:

§ Provided that this requirement shall not apply—

(a) to the manufacture of reconstituted cream, by any person solely for his domestic purposes; or
(b) to the manufacture on any premises of reconstituted cream for use in the preparation on those premises of some other article of food; or
(c) to the sale, exposure or keeping for sale of reconstituted cream on any premises where it is sold or exposed or kept for sale for consumption on those premises only or is not supplied otherwise than in the properly closed and unopened receptaeles in which it was delivered to those premises.

§ Amendment moved— Page 1, line 20, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Amendment moved— Page 2, line 2, leave out (" reconstituted ") and insert (" artificial ").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

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§ LORD STRACHIE moved to leave out proviso (6). The noble Lord said: My noble friend Lord Clinton apparently came to the same conclusion as I did upon this matter for he also has down an Amendment to leave out this proviso. It is desirable that registration should apply to premises used for the manufacture of reconstituted cream for use in the preparation on those premises of some other article of food; but I think it would be unnecessary where only ice creams were made or ice cakes with creams in them such as one constantly sees in the small shops. I imagine that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, has the same object as myself—namely, that premises in which large manufacture is taking place should be registered. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 2, line 5, leave out proviso (b).—(Lord Strachie.)

THE EARL OF ONSLOW
I would like to put before your Lordships the departmental view. The object of registration is to enable the enforcing authority to secure that the provisions of Clause 1 are complied with, and that applies to reconstituted cream, which is now of course artificial cream, when it is only made for conversion into some other article on the same premises. The difficulty is this. It is difficult for an inspector to ascertain in such circumstances whether the artificial cream had a separate existence. In the manufacture of ice cream, for example, it might occasionally be convenient to make artificial cream, using it in the sense of the term we have now adopted, before adding the other stuff you make ice cream of, which, I believe, is sugar, gelatine and things of that kind. Generally speaking the maker would mix up the ingredients for ice cream and then emulsify them, and it would be impossible to enforce registration on those premises, and I am doubtful whether the registration, if effected, would serve a useful purpose.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE
If there is some departmental objection based upon the impossibility of effective administration, of course we must bow to the decision of the Department, but I should have thought it would simplify matters very much—certainly if there was the commission of fraud, to which I fancy there will be great temptation—if all comer- 434 cial premises where there is an emulsifier were brought under the Food and Drugs Act. We all know now the nature, character and description of the emulsifier that is required for this purpose. Premises on which there is an emulsifier, the business of which is to blend by emulsification butter and separated milk powder with water and produce cream, ought to be brought under the Food and Drugs Act. There is a provision in the Food and Drugs Act, to which Lord Strachie referred on the Second Reading, to the effect that all products that are brought under that Act should be of the nature, character and quality that they purport to be. That being so, I venture to think that it would simplify procedure and avoid fraud if, wherever such a machine is used for commercial purposes, even if there be a secondary product made from it and sold on those premises, those premises were registered under the Food and Drugs Act.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
The trouble is that the whole, object of this Bill is to operate against people in cases where the Food and Drugs Act is of no use. This substance is of the nature, character and quality of cream: it is impossible to tell it from true cream and therefore it would be of no use to bring these premises under the Food and Drugs Act any more than they are at the present time. I think we must accept the decision of the Department that difficulties would arise, and I hope your Lordships will not accept the Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ LORD DANESFORT
May I point out that we ought to put in the word "artificial" instead of "reconstituted" in line 5?

THE LORD CHAIRMAN
Yes, I am much obliged to the noble Lord.

§ Amendment moved— Page 2, line 5, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD CLINTON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out proviso ("c"). The noble Lord said: I would like to ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill what is the exact meaning of this proviso. I take it the premises referred to will be mainly hotels or restaurants. Will this 435 reconstituted cream, or artificial cream as it will now be called, have to be supplied to the consumer in receptacles in the same way as delivered from the wholesale manufacturer?

§ Amendment moved— Page 2, line 9, leave out proviso (" c ")—(Lord Clinton.)

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
I think it would meet the noble Earl's point if we omitted the words "sold or exposed or kept for sale on those premises only or is." If cream is sold in the containers in which it was delivered by the manufacturer of course, the receptacles being marked, it would be exempt by this proviso. But cream sold in other vessels would not be so marked. I think that is what the noble Lord means.

§ LORD CLINTON
My object in moving to strike out this proviso is to deal with retail premises in which artificial cream is handed on to the consumer from the wholesale manufacturer. Those places would probably be hotels or restaurants in the main. Does this affect the sale of cream at hotels?

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
By striking out the words I suggest artificial cream sold at an hotel would have to be labelled as such. If it was sold to the hotel in a container already labelled it would not be affected.

§ LORD CLINTON
If the noble Lord is correct, as I have no doubt he is, in his interpretation of the meaning of his suggested Amendment, I am prepared to withdraw.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Amendment moved— Page 2, line 10, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Amendment moved— Page 2, line 11, leave out (" sold or ex posed or kept for sale or consumption on those premises only or is ").—(The Earl of Cranbrook.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to. Amendments moved—

§ Page 2, line 29, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial")

§ Page 2,line 33, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial")

436

§ Page 2,line 36, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 3 [Application to reconstituted cream of provisions relating to cream]:

§ Amendment moved— Page 3, line 6, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 4 agreed to.

§ Clause 5 [Penalties]:

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 3, line 25, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial")

§ Page 3,line 31, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial")

§ Page 3,line 33, leave out (" reconstituted ") and insert (" artificial ").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 6:

§ Definitions.

§ 6. In this Act— Food and Drugs Authority" has the same meaning as in the Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act, 1928; Cream" means that portion of milk rich in milk fat which has been separated by skimming or otherwise; Reconstituted cream" means an article of food resembling cream and containing no ingredient which is not derived from milk except water or any ingredient or material which may lawfully be contained in an article sold as cream.

§ LORD CLINTON moved, before the first "milk," to insert "natural." The noble Lord said: I think we must make it quite clear after all the controversy we have had that this article is not milk reconstituted or artificial or manufactured, or milk to which any other epithet could be applied. It should be really natural milk. I do not know whether it is absolutely essential to put in this word. I have been told since I drafted the Amendment that the words in this clause are the ordinary words defining milk in all previous legislation and if that is the case I will not press this Amendment, but I should like to hear what the noble Earl representing the Department has to say.

437

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, line 5, alter ("of") insert ("natural").—(Lord Clinton.)

THE EARL OF ONSLOW
I think, as a matter of fact, it is not necessary to insert this word in order to attain the end desired by the noble Lord. It is true that the word "milk" is used alone in previous legislation, such as the Milk and Dairies Act and the Food and Drugs Act, without definition. The word has always been interpreted as only applying to natural milk of animal origin. Therefore, it would be unfortunate to suggest by the insertion of any qualifying words in this Bill that a wider interpretation could be given to the word "milk" in other Acts. I do not think the Amendment is necessary.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE
Here again we have to be guided very much by the Ministry of Health, which the noble Earl so ably represents in this House, but I should like to draw attention to the fact that, although there is a certain amount of so-called cream with which this Bill is intended to deal sold on board ship, in hotels and elsewhere, there is a quite considerable, and I believe larger quantity of so-called milk which is not really milk at all from which this cream is extracted by separators or by skimming. Are we going to say that this so-called cream is to be labelled "artificial," but that the milk from which it is produced, though it is also a synthetised, composite article, is to remain without any qualifying epithet? I should have thought that it was desirable to put in the word "natural," if you think that word is sufficient to indicate that it comes from a cow or a goat or an ass. I would suggest that we should have either the prefix "natural" or the suffix "of animal origin," indicating that this particular milk from which this so-called cream is made must be milk as we ordinarily understand it. On board ship, as I have reason to know, because I went to South America twice last year, so-called milk is supplied to the passengers which is simply produced by an emulsifier from Argentine butter and New Zealand separated milk. I venture to hope that, if there is no real departmental objection, we shall insert one or other of these qualifications.

§ THE MARQUESS OF READING
After what has been said by Lord Bledisloe, I 438 think it would be desirable to introduce this word. I quite appreciate what was said by the noble Earl, that if you have this world which does not appear in other Acts there may be a little danger, but I do not think that the word could be held to apply to those other Acts, because here we are dealing with the distinction between real and artificial cream. That makes it important that you should he very careful about your definition because the whole Bill depends on the definition. I cannot but think that it is wise to have very definite language in a measure designed to make it quite certain that what is artificial is sold as artificial.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW
Subject to what my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill thinks, I will not raise any objection at present, but I should like to keep a perfectly open mind and to see whether this would affect other legislation, and whether the statements that we have here are quite correct. I should like to leave it like that, if my noble friend agrees.

THE EARL OF ORANBROOK
I am quite prepared to accept the Amendment if there is no departmental objection.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE had given Notice, after the first "milk," to insert "of animal origin." The noble Lord said: I do not intend at this stage to move my Amendment, but I should like to point out in passing that there are various milks that are not of animal origin, such as soya bean milk, cocoanut milk and so on.

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, line 8, leave out ("Reconstituted") and insert ("Artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE moved to leave out all words after "water." The noble Lord said: The words that I propose to leave out are— or any ingredient or material which may lawfully be contained in an article sold as cream. I should like to know who is going to decide that. I believe that there is a legal maxim, Certum est quod certum reddi potest. There is nothing 439 on the face of the Bill to indicate what is to be included in these very ambiguous words that I have read and, in order that there may be no evasion, I beg to suggest that it would be more wholesome and salutary to leave the words out altogether.

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, line 11, leave out from (" water ") to the end of the clause.—(Lord Bledisloe.)

§ LORD CLINTON
When the noble Earl replies, perhaps he would answer the question already put as to what these words are intended to convey. Are there any substances which may legally be inserted in natural milk when it is sold as such? I believe that no preservatives are now permitted by law. If the noble Earl can tell us what substances the pro-motors of the Bill have in mind, it might clear the matter up.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
I am informed that it is allowable under Section 2 (2) of the Food and Drugs Act to put a certain very small proportion of cane sugar into natural cream to assist its preservation, and it was thought that these words will prevent the seller of reconstituted cream from being in a different position in this respect from the seller of ordinary cream.

§ LORD DANESFORT
Might I suggest to the noble Earl that, if this is the only exception that he wants to cover in these words, it would be well to limit the clause by referring to the section of the Food and Drugs Act to which he has referred? You will have local benches, and possibly even the High Court, asked to determine the meaning of this section, and they might have to get expert evidence. If you can put in words which show exactly the limitation, it would be an improvement. Perhaps he will consider that point.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
I will certainly consider it between now and the next stage.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I should almost think that the noble Lord would not press the Amendment now. My noble friend has promised to consider it between now and Report.

§ LORD CLINTON
I do not want to rule out anything that may be legally added, but I should like to have some definition, if possible.

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§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 7 [Application to Scotland]:

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, lines 22 and 23, leave out (" reconstituted ") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

§ Clause 8 [Short title, commencement and extent]:

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, line 27, leave out ("Reconstituted") and insert ("Artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.

§ Schedule: [Provisions of Food and Drugs (Adulteration) Act, 1928, applied]:

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 5, line 17, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial?")

§ Page 6, line 11, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Strachie.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

§ Title:

§ An Act to regulate the sale and manufacture of reconstituted cream.

§ LORD BLEDISLOE had given Notice to move to leave out "reconstituted" and to insert "composite". The noble Lord said: By leave of the House, in consequence of the decision that we have taken, I wish to substitute the word "artificial," and I beg to move my Amendment in that form.

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, line 27, leave out ("reconstituted") and insert ("artificial").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Title, as amended, agreed to.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW
I do not know when my noble friend intends to put the Bill down for Report. I think it will require very careful scrutiny by the Government draftsmen. There have been a good many alterations and, if it-be possible, I hope that it may be postponed until Thursday.

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THE MARQUESS OF BEADING
If possible, I suggest that we should not deal with this Bill on Report to-morrow. It will be necessary to consider it, and it could be taken through its remaining stages on Thursday.

§ THE EARL OF CRANBROOK
I will put the Report stage down for Thursday, if that is the pleasure of the House.