HL Deb 13 March 1929 vol 73 cc503-7

Read 3a (according to Order).

Clause 7:

Determination of tenancies in holdings excluded on account of building value.

7.—(1) Where a hording has been excluded from vesting in the Commission under Part II of the Act of 1925 by reason that it possesses a substantial value or utility (whether potential or actual) as building ground, the following provisions shall have effect.— (c) if the landlord determines a tenancy as aforesaid he shall at the expiration of the notice to quit pay to the tenant compensation of an amount calculated as follows— If the notice is given before the expiration of ten years from the passing of this Act an amount equal to twenty-five times and if the notice is given after the expiration of the said ten years an amount equal to thirty times, the rateable value of the holding, or the part thereof comprised in the notice, and any buildings thereon.

For the purposes of this section the rateable value of a holding or part of a holding means the annual rateable value thereof as shown in the revised valuation lists in force under the Irish Valuation Acts at the time when the notice is given, or, if that value is not separately shown in those lists, the amount certified by the Commissioner of Valuation to be the annual rateable value; (d) where the landlord determines the tenancy in a part only of the holding the tenant shall be entitled to a reduction of rent which shall, in the absence of agreement, be proportionate to the amount by which the rateable value of the part of the holding comprised in the notice to quit is less than the rateable value of the entire holding;

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in paragraph (c) of subsection (1), to leave out "twenty-five" and to insert "thirty." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have a few Amendments to this clause which have been put upon the Paper on behalf of the Government, but I do not think that at this late hour, particularly as they all relate to one clause and have been practically agreed upon by those who are principally interested in the measure, I need go into them at any length. They refer to the amount of compensation that is to be given to tenants when landlords resume possession under the powers given in the case of land which may become building land owing to development in the neighbourhood of towns. My first Amendment is to substitute for the words "twenty-five" the word "thirty." That is the multiple of the rateable value of the land which is given to the tenant when the land is resumed by the landlord. This and the following Amendment are practically agreed by the landlords and the tenants, to whom the matter has again been submitted since this Bill has been before your Lordships' House.

The matter has been carefully considered and the arrangement arrived at has, I believe, the full approval, not only of the landlords and the tenants who are principally concerned, but also of the Government of Northern Ireland. In this matter we are indebted to the exertions of the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, who has procured and endorsed a satisfactory settlement of a difficult question. The two noble and learned Lords who have interested themselves particularly in this question have approved, I understand, the conclusions which have been arrived at and the Amendments that have been put down. I see Lord Buckmaster here, but I regret that Lord Carson is in bed and cannot be present, but he has empowered me to say that these Amendments have his full concurrence and support. Accordingly I beg to move the first Amendment that stands in my name.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 15, leave out ("twenty-five") and insert ("thirty").—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD BUCKMASTER

My Lords, this Bill was down for Third Reading some seven or eight days ago, and on the evening before the Third Reading was reached I was approached by certain representatives of tenants in Ireland who pointed out that the Bill as it stood might do a hardship to tenants who held land that had a building value. I pointed out to them that they were late in raising this complaint. They said that for some reason they had not noticed the progress of the Bill and had not been able to make their case heard. It seemed to me that they had a just cause of complaint, and I accordingly approached Lord Carson, who, with his natural readiness to consider any case in which he thought that people were being unfairly treated, promised that he would look into the matter, and the Third Reading was adjourned until to-day in order that something might be done. In the interval the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland himself took the trouble to go back to the beginning and to see if this matter could be adjusted. He came over here from Northern Ireland for the purpose of giving effect to an arrangement that might remove some of the grievance, and these Amendments represent what he has been able to propose.

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Desborough, is probably a little too optimistic if he imagines that these Amendments are perfectly satisfactory to the tenants. He must know that in these cases such a thing as thorough satisfaction on one side is almost impossible. That, however, is not the thing which is in my mind. I imagine that still under this Bill it is possible there may be individual cases of grievance, but the thing which impresses me is that there has been that readiness to meet at the very last hour, and the very last minute of the last hour, a case which was thought to involve hardship, and the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland has done a thing which might well be an example for our Government. Instead of taking the opportunity of saying it was too late, and the Bill was about to become law, he has set himself, almost without precedent, to see if he could not do something to meet a grievance which he felt might justly be admitted, and he has met it by these Amendments. I wish to say that, although I do not think that these Amendments meet the whole of the cases of the tenants, I yet think there has been a generous attempt to settle the thing at the last moment, when it would have been perfectly possible to exclude every claim of any sort or kind by merely asking the House to read the Bill a third time, when no Amendment would be possible. I am therefore glad to accept these Amendments.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in paragraph (c) of subsection 1, to leave out "thirty" and insert "thirty-five." The noble Lord said: This Amendment follows on the previous one.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 18, leave out ("thirty") and insert ("thirty-five").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in paragraph (c) of subsection (1), before the sub-paragraph beginning "For the purposes of this section" to insert Provided that where, before the passing of this Act, any buildings have been erected upon the holding or the part thereof comprised in the notice, the tenant or the landlord may at any time before the expiration of the notice apply to the civil bill court to determine the amount of compensation to be paid in respect of such buildings, and the civil bill court shall determine the amount of compensation by reference to the increase in the value of the holding fairly attributable to the buildings; and in that case the amount of compensation shall be calculated according to the foregoing provisions of this paragraph in respect of the holding (or the part thereof comprised in the notice) apart from such buildings, with the addition thereto of the amount determined by the civil bill court as compensation in respect of such buildings.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, there is a small drafting alteration to be made in this Amendment as printed. It is to substitute for the words "provisions of the last preceding" the words "foregoing provisions of this." I beg to move the Amendment with that alteration. It gives the civil bill court power of fixing a price in the case of buildings and also gives an appeal to the Appeal Court of Northern Ireland.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 20, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved—

Page 7, line 29, insert ("and the expression civil bill court' means the civil bill court of the county or borough where the holding (or the part thereof comprised in the notice) is situate; and where the holding or such part thereof is situate within the jurisdiction of more than one civil bill court, any civil bill court within the jurisdiction of which any part of the land or buildings affected is situate, may determine an application under this paragraph.

Any person aggrieved by any decision of the civil bill court under this section may appeal to the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland, and the decision of that court shall be final.").—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, after paragraph (d), to insert:— Provided that if there are buildings on the holding the amount of the reduction shall in the absence of agreement be determined by the civil bill court on the application of the landlord or tenant.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is consequential Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 37, insert the said proviso.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.