HL Deb 23 July 1929 vol 75 cc170-4

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

LORD PARMOOR

My Lords, in moving that the House do resolve itself into Committee on the Bill, it would be convenient if I were to state that the matter very properly raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, on the last occasion, has been settled and a form of draft has been agreed between us. He very kindly came to see me about it, and we were enabled to settle a draft which runs in this way:— Page 2, line 4, leave out from the second "of" to the end of line 6 and insert "such powers as His Majesty being satisfied that reciprocal provisions have been made may by Order in Council declare to be parties to the said Convention. In the same way in the proposed new paragraph (c), after the words "in one of such territories as His Majesty," there will be inserted: "being satisfied that reciprocal provisions have been made." Paragraphs (b) and (c) will then read in this way:— (b) between persons each of whom is subject to the jurisdiction of one or other of such Powers as His Majesty, being satisfied that reciprocal provisions have been made, may by Order in Council declare to be parties to the said Convention; and (c) in one of such territories as His Majesty, being satisfied that reciprocal provisions have been made, may by Order in Council declare to be territories to which the said Convention applies. That really meets, I think, the two points which were discussed.

It is right that the clause I am referring to should be applied both to Powers and territories. As has been pointed out by the Foreign Office, it does not necessarily mean that those are identical. For instance a Power might be France, and Madagascar might not be a territory which came within the reciprocal provisions. I hope that your Lordships will accept this. I think it is a matter that ought to have been settled and it has been settled between the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, and myself.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Parmoor.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Am I to understand that the noble and learned Lord is going to move these Amendments in Committee directly?

LORD PARMOOR

Yes.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

They are Amendments which do not appear on the Paper? They are in manuscript?

LORD PARMOOR

They do appear upon the Paper, but the terms of the agreement which I have come to with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, would not, of course, appear upon the Paper.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I mean that the form which the noble and learned Lord has read out does not appear on the Paper.

LORD PARMOOR

No.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I only desire to call your Lordships' attention to the fact that though that is a very reasonable method of procedure, in ordinary circumstances, generally speaking, your Lordships have an opportunity during the discussion at the remaining stages of the Bill to see that no mistake has been made. It is very unlikely the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, or the noble and learned Lord, the Leader of the House, would make a mistake, but in case they did make a mistake your Lordships would, in the ordinary course, have an opportunity of looking into it on the subsequent stages of the Bill. On the present occasion, however, I understand that the Government propose to take all the remaining stages of the Bill this afternoon.

LORD PARMOOR

Yes, the Standing Order has been suspended.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The Government take a grave responsibility in doing that. They put a manuscript Amendment into the Bill, and then they withdraw it from the cognisance of your Lordships' House without giving your Lordships the opportunity of seeing it in print. I cannot say that I approve of that method of legislation, and if the Government could see their way to allow the Bill to be reprinted and the remaining stages to be taken to-morrow instead of to-day, I think that would be far more suitable.

LORD PARMOOR

I feel very much what the noble Marquess has said; but when we discussed this matter the other night the noble and learned Viscount (Viscount Hailsham) said he had nothing further to say on the clauses, and the only outstanding matter was a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Atkin, as regards reciprocity—a very proper question to raise, as I stated at the time. Lord Atkin having raised that particular question, and it being agreed to, what we have done is to suspend the Standing Order with a view to the Bill being passed to-night. It would have passed through all its stages last Thursday but for the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin. I think it is a matter about which the noble Marquess need not have any anxiety. The Bill will have to go through the other House, and it is a matter which we fully discussed on a former occasion and the words have been agreed to between us.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Application of Part I.

1.—(1) This Part of this Act applies to any award made after the twenty-eighth day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-four—

  1. (a)in pursuance of an agreement for arbitration to which the protocol set out in the Schedule to the Arbitration Clauses (Protocol) Act, 1924, applies; and
  2. (b) between persons each of whom is subject to the jurisdiction of one or other of the governments to which this Part of this Act applies; and
  3. (c) in the territory of such a government;
and an award to which this Part of this Act applies is in this Act referred to as "a foreign award."

(2) The governments to which this Part of this Act applies are those governments in respect of which His Majesty may by Order in Council declare the said Convention to be in force.

(3) His Majesty may by a subsequent Order in Council vary or revoke any Order previously made under this section.

LORD PARMOOR moved to omit the words "the Governments to which this Part of this Act applies; and" in paragraph (b) of subsection (1), and also paragraph (c), and to insert:— " such powers as His Majesty, being satisfied that reciprocal provisions have been made, may by Order in Council declare to be parties to the said Convention; and (c) in one of such territories as His Majesty, being satisfied that reciprocal provisions have been made, may by Order in Council declare to be territories to which the said Convention applies. The noble and learned Lord said: I move this in the form which I have handed in. The, only difference from the form as it appears on the Paper is that the words "being satisfied that reciprocal provisions have been made" are inserted in each paragraph. It was, I understand, the general view that a provision to that effect should be inserted.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 4, lease out from the second (" of ") to the end of line 6 and insert the said words.—(Lord Parmoor.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I am not prepared to resist the Government Amendments, because they are no doubt very carefully advised by competent officials as to the wording and they have also had the very great assistance of the noble Lord, Lord Atkin, in the matter. I understand that by this modification of the words it is not intended to make any change in substance, but that it is merely a matter of getting the drafting in an accurate form. Is that so?

LORD PARMOOR

Yes—I do not want to mislead the noble Marquess—to this extent. I think I assented the other day to what was called by Lord Atkin reciprocity, and the words which we have added are words which will, I think, carry out quite correctly and accurately what is desired. They have been very carefully studied by the Departments concerned.

LORD ATKIN

I may be allowed to say this. I did put a carefully framed Amendment on the Paper with a view to carrying out the idea which, I think, commended itself to all parts of the House—namely, that it should be made clear that in taking power to enforce foreign awards here it would be based upon a principle of reciprocity, and that we should not be obliged to enforce here awards made in a foreign territory unless the foreign Government to which that territory appertains gave reciprocal advantages to us. I put an Amendment on the Paper to carry that out. The Lord President told me this morning he was prepared to put in the words he has mentioned. To my mind they carry out the object of my Amendment. I am bound to say I prefer my own drafting, as one probably naturally would do, but I cannot conceive that these words, properly construed, would have any other effect than would be the effect of the Amendment I put on the Paper. I was very pleased to agree with the Lord President and not to dispute what, after all, would be a mere question of words.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PARMOOR moved to leave out subsection (2).

Amendment moved— Line 9, leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 2 to 6 agreed to.

Clause 7 [Application to Scotland and Northern Ireland]:

LORD PARMOOR

This Amendment and the following one are merely to correct misprints.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 16, leave out "(2)" and insert "(3)".—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 17, leave out "(2)" and insert "(3)".—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

House resumed.

Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Amendments reported: Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.