Lords Sitting of 20 March 1928

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE on the Woolsack.

LIQUOR (DISINTERESTED OWNERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the disinterested control and management of the manufacture, sale and supply of intoxicating liquor, to amend the law relating to the grant and renewal of licences, and for other purposes incidental thereto; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

RAILWAY (ROAD TRANSPORT) BILLS.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Commons Message of Thursday last.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to make the Motion which stands in my name upon the Paper and which is consequential upon Motions to which your Lordships have already agreed.
Moved, That a Committee of five Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons to consider the following Bills, the London, Midland and Scottish Railway (Road Transport) Bill, the Great Western Railway (Road Transport) Bill, the London and North Eastern Railway (Road Transport) Bill, the Metropolitan Railway (Road Transport) Bill, the Southern Railway (Road Transport) Bill, the London, Midland and Scottish Railway (Road Transport, Scotland) Bill and the London and North Eastern Railway (Road Transport, Scotland) Bill, as mentioned in the Commons Message, and that the said Committee be named by the Committee of Selection.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read; 1a; and to be printed.

PUBLIC HEALTH (DESTRUCTION OF VERMIN) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STRATHSPEY: My Lords, with the permission of your Lordships, I should like to postpone the Second Reading of this measure for a week.
Second Reading put off till Tuesday next.

INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES (AMENDMENT) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
POLICE DISTRICTS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

FALSE OATHS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. In doing so I should like to make an explanation upon a point raised by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane, on the Second Reading, to the effect that Section 5 would make it possible to convict a person who had nothing to do with Scotland, who had never heard of the Bill, and who might be only casually and temporarily in Scotland. Clause 5, however, deals with offences against the Bill. For instance, a person makes a false statement in a declaration made for the purpose of
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some Act of Parliament or makes a false declaration with a view to securing registration on some register kept in pursuance of an Act of Parliament. It is essential that a person who makes such a false statement should be punishable though he made the statement abroad instead of in Scotland; otherwise it would be possible to evade the Act by crossing the Channel in order to make a false declaration for use in Scotland. Clause 5 could not be used except where the false statement had been made for the purpose of securing something in Scotland—for example, registration as a voter or as a dentist. There is no possibility therefore of the shipwrecked mariner, to whom the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane, referred, being apprehended on his forced landing in Scotland and being there imprisoned for some false oath or statement he had made in complete ignorance of Scotland and of this Bill. I hope that explanation will satisfy the noble and learned Viscount.
I also want to make it clear that this clause is in complete conformity with Section 8 of the English Act of 1911, though the latter is rather wider in its terms for it applies to offences punishable under other Acts as well as to contraventions of that Act. That Act has been amended in some points, chiefly as regards procedure, but no amendment that in any way affects Section 8 or limits its operation has been made. The present Bill is exactly analogous to the English Act of 1911, making allowances for the essential differences between Scottish and English criminal administration. Any objection to Clause 5 of the Bill therefore necessarily applies with equal force to Section 8 of the Act of 1911.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Duke of Sutherland.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, the statement which the noble Duke has just made is in accordance with what his technical advisers have pointed out to be desirable, if not necessary, and the outcome is that it is just one of those clauses which we put into Acts of Parliament that go far beyond the necessities of some of the cases which may come up, but are convenient and possibly

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essential as regards others. In those circumstances, having great confidence in the common sense of the judiciary, I am not prepared to offer any opposition to this Bill, but I do not like legislation in this form.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE, in the Chair.]
Bill reported without amendment.

AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE (GRADING AND MARKING) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
LORD HARRIS: My Lords, the noble Earl the Lord Chairman advises me that this is perhaps the correct moment, or the least incorrect moment, at which to ventilate my grievance, not for the first time. Your Lordships will observe that wider Clause 5 of this Bill it is to be the duty of the council of every county or county borough to enforce within the county or county borough the provisions of this Bill. More expense, therefore, will be laid upon the unfortunate ratepayer. I believe that if the Public Health (Destruction of Vermin) Bill had been discussed to-night, it would have been possible to say on that Bill also that the charge for administering it is laid upon the unfortunate ratepayer. What is the use of the Chancellor of the Exchequer going round the country expressing sympathy with the ratepayer when the Government allow, and indeed assist, various interested and anxious legislators to pass such legislation? I think there are four or five Bills in the boxes on the Table in your Lordships' House, every one of which, for all I know, may contain provisions to throw the cost of administration on the ratepayers. What use is it for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go round the country expressing sympathy when, in many Acts which are passed, this is done?
There is no suggestion in this Bill, so far as I can see—my noble friend below me will correct me if I am wrong—that
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the Public Exchequer should assist the ratepayer as is done in many cases. Of course it is no use attempting to move anything in regard to that—it would be contrary to privilege—and therefore one has to accept the position. But I take every opportunity—I did so last Session on the Nursing Homes (Registration) Bill, which also laid responsibility on county councils—of calling attention to this in the hope that county councils will bring some pressure to bear upon their county members. That is where there is laxity. If they were continually to impress upon their county members that Bills are laying more charges upon the rates, there might be some chance of Parliament paying attention to this, which I think is a real grievance.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF STRADBROKE): My Lords, in reply to what the noble Lord has just said, had he been here last week he would have heard a statement that it is not expected that any extra expense will be incurred by county councils in administering this measure. There are very few places that will have to be registered for the storage of chilled eggs and the chemical storage of eggs, and we think that the number of officers now employed by the county councils and municipal authorities will be sufficient for the carrying out of arty inspections that will be necessary should the Bill become an Act.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Grade designation marks.
2.—(1) Regulations made by the Minister under this Act may prescribe such mark (in this Act referred to as a "grade designation mark") as he may consider appropriate to represent any grade designation, and may make provision for authorizing, or empowering any person or body of persons to authorise, subject to such conditions as may be attached to the authorisation, the marking with a grade designation mark of any covering containing, or label attached to, articles in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed.
(2) Any person who uses any covering or label marked with a grade designation mark, whether the covering or label was so marked

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by him or by some other person, shall be deemed for the purposes of the last foregoing section to use, in connection with any article which is contained in the covering or to which the label is attached, the grade designation represented by the mark.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE THE EARL OF STRADBROKE moved, in subsection (1), before "covering," to insert "article in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed or of any." The noble Earl said: When this Bill was introduced it was thought that it would be sufficient that the grade designation should be applied only to the covering or label or wrapper. Since then it has become apparent that it may be desirable to apply the grade mark to the goods themselves, such as bacon or cheese. For that reason I move the insertion of the words which appear on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 12, at end insert ("article in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed or of any").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE THE EARL OF STRADBROKE moved to omit the words "articles in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed" in subsection (1), and to insert "any such article." The noble Earl said: This Amendment is consequential on the one just passed.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 13, leave out from ("to") to the end of the subsection, and insert ("any such article").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to add to subsection (1): "and the Regulations shall provide for an appeal to a court of summary jurisdiction by any person who may be aggrieved by a refusal of authority to use a grade designation mark." The noble Viscount said: If your lordships will look at Clause 2 of the Bill, you will see that Regulations made by the Minister may prescribe and may make provision for authorising or empowering any person or body of persons to authorise the marking with a grade designation mark of any articles in respect of which such a mark has been prescribed. I think the noble Earl on the Second Reading of this Bill said that this mark would be a very valuable asset. It seems to me that if any
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one is aggrieved by the refusal of authority to use a grade designation mark he ought to have the right to appeal. I think a court of summary jurisdiction is the best for cheapness and by reason of being at hand, and is in every way appropriate. I therefore beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 14, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: The Bill as it stands at present provides that the grade designation mark may be used by any person authorised to use it by the Minister, or by any person or body of persons authorised by him to give that authority. The intention of the Minister is to consult with the National Farmers Union and other organisations who are well acquainted with the conditions both of producers and of those who are interested in the marketing of goods, and after that consultation to form committees, who will have power to grant the use of these grade marks. It is essential, I think, for the proper working of the Bill, that the discretion as to whether a person may or may not use the grade designation mark should be in the hands of experts, who understand what they are doing. I think the noble Viscount, on consideration, will perhaps agree with me that it is much better that the discretion should be in the hands of experts, and that it should not be left to a court of summary jurisdiction to decide this question. It is not a criminal question. I hope therefore he will not press his Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: It is perfectly competent for a court of summary jurisdiction to have expert advisers, as is done in many cases in the Law Courts. However, I will not press my Amendment to a Division.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: The next five Amendments on the Paper are all consequential on the first Amendment.
Amendments moved—
Page 2, line 15, after ("who") insert ("sells or delivers or exposes or offers for sale any article marked with a grade designation mark, or who"), and at end insert ("so")

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Page 2, line 16, leave out ("with a grade designation mark"), and at end insert ("article")
Page 2, line 19, after ("with") insert ("the article marked or in connection with")
Page 2, line 21, after ("attached") insert ("as the case may be,")
Page 2, line 38, after ("any") insert ("article").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Marking of preserved eggs.
3. Subject as hereinafter provided, it shall not, after the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-eight, be lawful to sell or expose for sale any egg which has been subjected to any process of preservation unless the egg is marked in the prescribed manner, and any person who acts in contravention of this section shall be liable on summary conviction in the case of a first offence to a fine not exceeding five pounds, and in the case of a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds:
Provided that the Minister shall by order exempt from the operation of this section eggs preserved by any process with respect to which he is satisfied that the marking of imported eggs preserved by that process cannot be enforced.
THE EARL OF STBADBROKE THE EARL OF STBADBROKE moved, in the proviso, to leave out "imported." The noble Earl said: This is a drafting Amendment. The proviso as it stands enables the Minister to exempt eggs from the operation of the clause where he is satisfied that the enforcement of the provisions of the clause is impracticable. Therefore the word "imported" is not necessary.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 15, leave out ("imported").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Cold and chemical storage of eggs.
4.—(1) Any premises used or intended to be used by way of trade or for purposes of gain for the cold storage or chemical storage of eggs may be registered in the prescribed manner in a register kept by the council of the county or county borough in which the premises are situated, in accordance with regulations made by the Minister under this Act.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "may" and insert "shall". The noble Viscount said: If your Lordships will turn to column 419 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, you will see that in the Second Reading debate on this Bill the noble Earl in charge of it said:
"It is not possible to detect by analysis whether eggs have been preserved in this way, and consequently they cannot be brought under the provisions of Clause 3. Such methods are, however, dealt with in Clause 4, where it is laid down that any premises used for cold storage or chemical storage of eggs must be registered, and all eggs intended to be preserved in this way must, before being brought into the registered premises, be marked in an appropriate manner."
That is not quite borne out by the words of the Bill, and it is in order to bring it into conformity with what the noble Earl said that I move my Amendment. I think it better, instead of making optional, to make it compulsory.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 19, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: I think that the noble Viscount is under a misapprehension as to this word. A reference to the clause will show that the prohibition against the use of premises for the cold storage or chemical storage of eggs for gain by way of trade becomes operative only if and when an Order in Council requiring the marking of imported eggs is in force. This being so, the first subsection of the clause is necessarily only optional until such Order is made, and it is for this reason that "may" is inserted rather than "shall," so that in the meantime the authorities concerned can, if they wish, proceed with the registration of premises where eggs are likely to be stored when the Order comes into force. I hope, therefore, that the noble Viscount will withdraw his Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Enforcement and expenses.
5. It shall be the duty of the council of every county or county borough to enforce

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within their county or county borough the provisions of this Act, and for that purpose to appoint such officers as may be necessary, and any expenses incurred by a council under this Act shall be defrayed in the case of a county council as part of their expenses for generai county purposes, and in the case of a county borough, out of the borough fund or the borough rate:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, before "appoint," to insert "keep such registers and". The noble Viscount said: One of the duties imposed under Clause 4 on the local authority is the keeping of registers, and it seems only right that these words should be inserted. The duties that they have to carry out are in part enumerated, but the duty to keep registers is not mentioned.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 5, after ("to") insert ("keep such registers and").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: The registration by the council of the county or county borough is already provided for in Clause 4, which provides for Regulations being made and prescribes the manner in which registers must be kept by the local authority. It is most desirable that they should be kept in conformity with the Regulations that are made. This Amendment would allow each local authority to make its own regulations, and there might be disparity in the different registers that were kept. I do not think that there is any necessity for the insertion of these words, and I hope that the noble Viscount will withdraw his Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I should not have thought it necessary to move this Amendment had not the words "to appoint such officers as may be necessary" been put in. But I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn
LORD HARRIS: I hope that I shall not offend if I comment on the retort that my noble friend below me made in regard to Clause 5. It gives me no comfort at all, for it does not hold out any hope of the Government contributing to these expenses of local authorities, but merely expresses the hope that the expenditure will not be great. I have heard this hope expressed before and it has not been realised. It is obvious
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from the clause that the expense is to be borne by the county council. The Bill means more inspection officers, and I am very much afraid that if it is successful, as I suppose the Government hope that it may be, it will mean that a great number of places will have to be inspected.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): I am quite sure that your Lordships will believe that my noble friend is only forcing an open door when he says that we should desire to restrain undue local expenditure. I do not think that my noble friend quarrels with the substance of this Bill, and he thinks it is a Bill which might reasonably be passed. No Bill, of course, can be passed unless you provide the machinery under which it is to work, and machinery necessarily costs certain small sums. That is an incident of all legislation. My noble friend's protest, with which I greatly sympathise, really only comes to this, that the expenses are to be thrown rather on the ratepayer than on the taxpayer.
LORD HARRIS: Partly.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My noble friend's interruption really brings me to the point of what I rose to say. His observations have really raised a much bigger question than is contained in the four corners of Clause 5. They really raise the whole question of how far we are right in the policy hitherto pursued in this country of throwing the burden of this kind of legislation upon the local authorities, and that in its turn raises the whole question or the relations between Imperial and local taxation. I cannot help thinking that we shall have to talk a great deal about this subject in the course of the present Session, but I hope that my noble friend will not press us on the present occasion.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
Interpretation.
7. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:—
"Chemical storage" includes storage for the purpose of preserving eggs by any process which does not alter the

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composition of the shells, including storage in any gas, vapour or gaseous mixture:
"Prescribed" means prescribed by regulation made under this Act:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in the definition of "chemical storage," to leave out "includes" and to insert "means." The noble Viscount said: I am legally advised that, unless "means" replaces "includes," there will be no definition in the Bill of chemical storage.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 37, leave out ("includes") and insert ("means").—(Viscount Bertie Thame.)
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: I think that on the whole the word suggested by the noble Viscount is an improvement upon that in the Bill, and I am glad to accept his Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I am very much obliged to the noble Earl.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: My last Amendment is purely drafting, to add certain words to the definition of "prescribed."
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 10, at end insert ("by the Minister").—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.

PATENTS AND DESIGNS (CONVEN- TION) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
LORD ERNLE LORD ERNLE rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether the existence of two distinct types of foot-and-mouth disease is still confirmed by the Research Committee; whether the type most prevalent in Denmark, Holland and Belgium is the same as that which mainly prevails in this country; whether the virus has been recovered from any imported supplies of
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chilled or frozen meat; and, if so, to which type it belongs; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in previous discussions of foot-and-mouth disease the precise points to which I wanted to call attention were not raised, and I scarcely thought it reasonable to spring them upon an unprepared Minister. I therefore have put Questions down which I hope indicate with sufficient clearness the lines which I wish to pursue. A Research Committee was appointed in April, 1925, to examine into foot-and-mouth disease in this country and elsewhere, with a view of discovering some means of rendering invasions less harmful to agriculture. In the course of their researches they confirmed the discovery of there being two distinct types of foot-and-mouth disease—two distinct fixed types, and only two—and they designated them by the letters A and O. The first question that I wish to ask the Minister is whether that confirmation still holds good. It may have an important bearing on the whole question of foot-and-mouth disease. The Committee examined seventeen strains of the virus of foot-and-mouth disease, derived from cattle infected in this country, and they found that of those seventeen, sixteen belonged to the O type of feet-and-mouth disease, and one only belonged to the A type. I believe that type was discovered in Sussex, and promply suppressed, and so you may say for certain, if these samples are representative, that foot-and-mouth disease in this country belongs to the O type. We know that that is the type which prevails in France and the A type appears to have prevailed in Germany.
My second Question is whether the virus of the disease in Denmark, Holland and Belgium has also been examined, and whether it is known to what type the virus in those countries belongs. If infection is blown here from the Continent, it evidently may have an important bearing. The source of the invasion of foot-and-mouth disease only secondarily comes within the province of the Research Committee, but it is only those sources of invasion that I want to deal with. Initial outbreaks, as they are generally called in the Ministry's publications, occur generally in rural districts, and of recent years more particularly in the Midlands. They often occur under very

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puzzling circumstances. Suddenly, in a lonely isolated farm perhaps a hundred miles away from any source of known infection in this country, the disease breaks out. No livestock of any sort have been brought on to the farm. No human contact can be traced, and the smaller rodents, such as mice and rats, appear to be acquitted by science of being carriers. How, then, can the virus have reached that isolated place? Generally there are two theories. One is that the infection is air-borne, or bird-borne, and the other that it is introduced into this country in some article of agricultural produce imported from abroad. Whichever of those two theories you like to embrace, there is this initial difficulty. Since 1892, when the slaughter policy was first adopted in this country, down to 1927, infection on the Continent has been continuously prevalent, and the importations of the same articles of agricultural produce have been continuously pouring into this country. For the first twenty-six years of that period those two sources of infection, if sources they are, were innocent of infecting this country. In the last nine years we have suffered almost continuously, with varying degrees of severity, from outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease.
The difference between the two periods may be measured by the amount paid in compensation for animals slaughtered under the slaughter policy. For the first twenty-six years, down to 1918, the amount paid was under £12,000 a year, and the total expenditure for the twenty six years was about £300,000. In the last nine years the average annual net expenditure has been over £485,000, and the total net expenditure for the nine years has been £4,300,000 odd. How then, if those two sources of suspected infection were comparatively innocent for twenty-six years, can they be flagrantly guilty in the last nine? That is the difficulty you have to face. As to the air-or bird-borne theory, I think it is a theory of despair. I do not think it will hold up against examination. It cannot make any answer to the point that if the air and the birds were innocent for twenty-six years, why have they become guilty in the last nine. Certainly you would expect, if it were the fact, that there would be more numerous outbreaks in this country when there were
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more numerous outbreaks on the Continent. I have searched the figures very carefully, and I will not worry your Lordships with them. I will only mention two facts. In 1923, when our outbreaks rose to the, for us, enormous figure of 1929, the Continent was comparatively free from infection. In 1926, when our outbreaks dropped to 204, the air and soil of the Continent were reeking with infection. Therefore I do not think that that theory of despair need be adopted. No definite proof is possible in such a theory, and, if it is true, no remedy is possible.
At the most we can say that there are some cases to which it may apply. Therefore we are driven back to the imported trade in agricultural produce, and if we have any chance of finding that it is responsible, what we have to look out for are the changed conditions which make it possible for that trade to be infectious at one time and innocent of infection at another. There was one new trade that has already been dealt with—the trade in fresh pigs' meat from Belgium and Holland. That new trade was found to be infected and was prohibited in July, 1926. Other agricultural produce has been sometimes suspected and measures have been taken. One of these was the trade in foreign fresh vegetables, which might go uncooked into the swill of large towns. That was dealt with.
There remains the imported chilled and frozen meat from abroad, and particularly from the Argentine. What changed conditions has that gone through? It has gone through several changed conditions. In the first place it has greatly increased in volume. It used to provide rather more than one-third of the meat supply of this country: it now supplies close on one-half. Increase in volume in itself, of course, proves nothing at all, but if the produce is infected it becomes of extreme importance. Another change is that, within the last nine years especially, the predominance of chilled over frozen meat has become more and more marked. In 1912, I think I am right in saying, the proportions were about 50–50, but in 1927 the chilled meat had risen to 86 per cent. Once more, this change means nothing at all if the meat is innocent of infection, but if it is guilty of infection, then you have this fact. The activity of the virus must have a time limit. The chilled meat must be consumed within the time limit.

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Frozen meat can be kept for years. I believe there is a piece in the docks—when I was President of the Board of Agriculture there was a piece that had been there for over twenty years, and was supposed to be quite good.
Therefore frozen meat can be kept for any time, chilled meat must be eaten much more quickly—eaten, that is, when the activity of the virus is still considerable, and I should like to say that that has a very great bearing upon a Question which was asked by Lord Banbury about a fortnight ago. He said that the frozen and chilled meat trade had been suspended during the War, and he suggested that our immunity from outbreaks was due to that suspension. As a matter of fact it was not really the frozen meat trade that was suspended, it was the chilled meat trade. The frozen meat trade continued in volume as great as at any time within the last three years. What did happen was that the chilled meat fell off practically to nothing. It may be only a coincidence but we were certainly immune from outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease, and if the matter has any significance at all it is that it confirms to a certain extent the view that chilled meat is the dangerous part of the import.
A third change may have taken place, and about this I really want all the information that the Minister can give me. I should like to know whether the Argentine meat has become infected, whether in other words, foot-and-mouth disease is prevalent in that country. I know, and I think it is common knowledge, what his answer must be—that it is prevalent in Argentina. He may tell us that in South America it is a benignant disease. But, if I may say so, unless he is going to tell me that the Research Committee have other types, it can only belong to type A or to type O, that is to say to two types which in this country are virulent in their form. That the disease is benignant in South America may be a very good thing for the South Americans, but that when it comes over here it comes in the virulent form is what does us harm. It may be that it makes matters worse for us, because if it is so mild in Argentina it may be more difficult to detect. There are, I am told, no statistics, but if this disease belongs to either the A or the O type, then it is
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the type that is prevailing in this country at the present moment. If there are no statistics probably the Minister may not be able to tell me what I particularly want to know. I want to know if foot-and-mouth disease has increased in prevalence in Argentina in the last nine years; whether it was exceptionally prevalent in our worst years, 1922, 1923 and 1924; and whether to his knowledge it is now endemic in South America.
This becomes an important point, if you consider the recent Report of the Research Committee. The Research Committee examined carcasses of infected animals in this country, dressed for market and exposed to the chilling and freezing temperatures, so as to make them exactly comparable to the chilled and frozen trade of South America, and they found the virus of the disease was active in the blood for from 30 to 40 days, and that it was active in the marrow of the bones for longer periods—in two instances up to 76 days. Now, that is an important, at all events a significant, discovery. If, as I expect the Minister to tell us, Argentina is rife with this disease—whether it is malignant or virulent that does not affect the question—it means that our meat supply, distributed all over the country, is a source of infection to our flocks and herds, and if you consider one other point made by the Research Committee, you will see the gravity of that. The mere smear of the virus of this infection on a man's working clothes is actively infectious for more than a fortnight, and even up to three weeks. Therefore by handling this infected meat you are multiplying all over the country the sources of initial outbreaks. I make no comment on what is past, nor do I mean to do so, but I want to ask the Minister what his Department has been doing. That progress Report was signed in January, 1927, fourteen months ago. What I want to know is whether the Ministry have examined the virus derived from the disease in Argentina, and, if so, whether they can tell us to which type, A or O, it belongs; whether they have actually found the virus in meat that has been imported from Argentina into this country; and, finally, what steps the Ministry have taken, or propose to take, to control the importation of infected

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meat from the country of origin, or to regulate its handling after arrival in our ports.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, before the noble Earl answers there is a further question on which I should like to say a few words, which is germane to that put by the noble Lord opposite. The noble Lord has introduced to-day a subject of national importance, a subject that goes to the very root of things in this country, and which has inflicted upon us much loss, not merely of animal life but of money to our people. He said that research had got so far as to show that there are two types of this disease, and he also went on to indicate, speaking with the great knowledge which he has of these matters, that between chilled meat and frozen meat there is a great difference. The bacillus, for it is a bacillus in some form, lives longer under chilled conditions than it does under frozen conditions. That, at any rate, disappoints one.
LORD ERNLE: I do not think I quite meant to convey that. What I meant to say was that there must be a time limit to the activity of the virus, and that chilled meat will be sold before that time limit is reached while frozen meat may be kept beyond it. It is the same point put in a different way.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: That, I think, is very much the same thing as I was suggesting.
LORD ERNLE: Quite so.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: When we get to the root of it there is a bacillus, the nature of which we do not know, and we are speculating about the discovery of that bacillus and its life under certain conditions. Early in 1924, I think it was, a Committee was appointed by the Ministry of Agriculture to inquire into this matter. That Committee has been working steadily ever since. It has distinguished experts upon it and has presented various Reports; among them, the progress Report of which the noble Lord has spoken and other communications. But when you want to get at the character of a bacillus like this what is the use of leaving it to a Committee? The Committee consists of very eminent men who know a great deal, and if they could give their time and thought to it
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with the passion which is given by the individual researcher the fruits might be great; but it is never so. I know something of the history of biology in this country, and I have never known of any great discovery being made by a Committee, and I do not expect that I ever shall. It is not a question merely of the conditions under which the disease manifests itself or how it may be mitigated. It is a question of what is the character of the bacillus. That is a purely scientific question and it is a question of biology.
Let us look at the past. We had a terrible question of the same kind in rabies. It was solved by Pasteur. Do you imagine that Pasteur's place could have been taken by any Committee? No, not at all. He was opposed and bitterly assailed at the time, but that would not happen again to-day. He had to do his work himself, in solitude, inspired by the passion for excellence and by his superb scientific instinct. Take Lister, who was a disciple of Pasteur and applied his principle in an entirely new form. That, again, was the work of a single man. Only a single man can devote himself and his knowledge with the passion for excellence which is required if you are to get a great individual result. In later times Banbury did his work for humanity by himself. No doubt he had colleagues with whom he consulted, but it was Banbury's work; it was the work of an individual.
What the Ministry of Agriculture has never done, what no Government has ever done, and what I have clamoured for more than once, is to look out in the biological laboratories of Universities among the experts in these things for a comparatively young man who would devote himself to this research into the character of the bacillus. I know it is very difficult to find. The Germans thought they had found it. I do not think they think so now; but what has been done with them has been the work of one man. It is always one man who does these things. Notwithstanding the War, notwithstanding the loss of life among our young scientific men, we still retain a remarkable number of quite first rate investigators who are engaged in parallel fields. It is no use going to the great professor, because he will say that it is not his subject. But the professor

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may tell you—and he is likely to know more than you do—who there is of promise, who there is that can be trusted, who there is that can be set to work in the research which is necessary to identify this bacillus, which is a very difficult thing. Probably it is an ultramicroscopic bacillus. But the microscope is not the limit to our power of detecting and describing these things, and if somebody was turned on and his whole time in his laboratory given to the research, I venture to think the prospect would be far more promising than that which can come from any Committee.
I am far from criticising the Committee or depreciating its activities. I have no doubt that it has done very useful work. But having regard to the terrible national evil which has been inflicted upon us, having regard to the magnitude of what it costs us in life and money, I am for omitting no step which, according to the best analogies, may be likely to throw light upon the source of a great evil. I hope, therefore, that the noble Earl will tell us that the Ministry of Agriculture is alive to these things and that it is prepared, notwithstanding its Scientific Committee, to look out for this far more special kind of assistance which it can derive from the work of a single individual, sought for and found on the best advice of the people with whom he has been working, and who may be engaged to devote his whole time and his whole energy to this very special research.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: My Lords, in replying to the two very interesting speeches which have been made on this subject this afternoon, I beg to thank the noble and learned Viscount for the suggestion he has made. I can assure him that great care has been taken by the Research Committee to make the studies he has suggested, and if we can find anybody who is qualified for this work I am sure that use will be made of his suggestions. The noble Viscount will, I know, agree that it is very difficult to find anybody who will be able to fill this very difficult position and still more unlikely, I am afraid, that he will find a preventive. A cure has been found, as our Lordships know. The difficulty is to find a preventive of this terrible disease, foot-and-mouth disease, which is causing so much anxiety to the Ministry at the present time.
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With regard to the Question which the noble Lord, Lord Ernle, placed on the Paper, I should like to say that the Foot-and-Mouth Disease Research Committee have confirmed the opinion arrived at by Dr. Vallée, of the Alfort Veterinary College, Paris. They agree that there are two strains of foot-and-mouth disease and that if cattle, or animals, are attacked by one strain of virus of the disease and become immune it does not prevent them falling victims to the other strain of virus. The distinction between these two strains cannot be found by clinical evidence; only by cross-inoculation. It has been proved that if an animal is infected, we will say, with the A strain of virus and becomes immune and after a short time is again infected by the A virus it does not re-act. But if it is infected with the O virus it does re-act and becomes infected. That is the only way of proving that these two strains exist. The importance of the discovery is that it explains why, when animals have been attacked by foot-and-mouth disease, it is not uncommon for them to be attacked again within a few months. A good many people thought that if an animal or a herd of animals were infected with foot-and-month disease, after they once got over it they were immune. That has proved not to be the case, and the reason is that, while in the first case they were infected with one strain, On the second attack it was the other strain to which they had fallen victim.
This naturally very greatly adds to the difficulty of eradicating the disease. The only way we see at the present time of attacking it is by the very expensive method of slaughtering the infected animals. It is important also to notice that the animals are immune from the disease for a very short period, at most a few months only. As the noble Lord, Lord Ernle, pointed out, the type of the disease that is most prevalent in Europe is the O. type, the same that we have in this country, and perhaps that is the reason why it is so much more prevalent here than the other type—namely, on account of our proximity to continental countries. I do not know if it has any bearing on the case, but in 1919, 30,000 cwts. of fresh meat were imported from Europe whereas in 1926 1,000,000 cwts. were imported. I do not know whether this increase in imported fresh meat

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from the Continent has had any bearing on the increase in foot-and-mouth disease during those years. It looks on the face of it as if that might be so.
There is no information available as to the type of foot-and-mouth disease in the Argentine. We do not know which type it is that is most prevalent there, but we know that it is very prevalent. I hope the steps that the Government of the Argentine have promised to take, to check the sending to this country of cargoes that are likely to be infected by the disease, will prove effective. Article 7 of the new Argentine Decree, if properly enforced, will, I think, minimise the danger of infection being brought here very greatly. The Article to which I refer is as follows:—
"The procedure of inspecting animals at the freezing plants before and after slaughter will be intensified, and the herd (particular consignment) shall be isolated in the event of symptoms of foot-and-mouth dsease or other contagious disease being established among the animals on foot, and when such disease is ascertained on the slaughter ground the meat from the herd may not be exported."
That, I think, will greatly minimise the risk of infection. Your Lordships are aware—the noble Lord, Lord Ernle, has already referred to it—that in July, 1926, the embargo was put on the importation of fresh carcasses into this country from the Continent owing to the outbreak that occurred in Lanarkshire in that year. The cause of the disease was traced to carcasses imported from the Continent.
The noble Lord, Lord Ernle, also asked whether the virus has been recovered from imported supplies of chilled meat or frozen meat. I must say that no attempt has been made by the Foot-and-Mouth Diseases Research Committee under this head to recover the virus from imported meat. It is thought that such a task would really be impracticable as so many thousands of carcasses are imported. One might take case after case and find nothing and, after all, that would not prove that there was an infection brought in but would simply prove that the carcasses that had been examined were free from the disease, though all the time disease might be brought in. The work of the Committee has been carried out on animals that have been specially infected with foot-and-mouth disease for the purpose of experiment. It is thought by that method the Research
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Committee can make sure that the animals are infected with the disease and find the results that occur when animals are truly infected. They get better results in that way than they would do by taking chance carcasses of the previous condition of which they might not be sure. I regret I cannot give the noble Lord the information that he wished to have, but I have given him all the figures which are at the present moment available to me.
LORD BLEDISLOE: My Lords, I am conscious that, having only lately returned from a Government Mission to the Governments of South America in connection with this question of the transmission of foot-and-mouth disease germs in chilled carcasses to our own shores, your Lordships will probably desire I should not remain silent in the course of such a debate as this. Obviously it would be quite impossible for me, even if it were strictly proper, to go into detail at this stage as to the contents of a Report which, in its complete form, I have not yet submitted to His Majesty's Government, but I should like to say, in reply to a Question of my noble friend, Lord Ernle, that foot-and-mouth disease, or as it is called there aftosa, is undoubtedly prevalent in the Argentine, although I learn from various responsible sources that it is not deemed to be more prevalent to-day than it was, say, a decade or two decades ago. The disease is at least as prevalent in Uruguay, from which the importation of meat is not so considerable, and is very considerably prevalent, one might almost say raging, in the very large tract of country known as Brazil. I do not know that Brazil is very important from our point of view because, so far, a comparatively small amount of chilled meat passes from Brazil into this country, but it is an increasing amount and I am inclined to think we shall have to focus our attention more largely on Brazil in this connection in days to come than perhaps even upon the Argentine, where, owing to the climate being much more temperate and the country being much more manageable, it is easier to control the disease.
But what I should like very much to ask the noble Earl who now represents in this House the Ministry of Agriculture is whether something could not be done

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to effect co-operation in the matter of research as between the very eminent veterinary experts who are conducting research work with the utmost sympathy with our contentions on this side of the Atlantic and the very eminent experts both in Argentine and Brazil who are engaged in similar tasks. I may particularly mention Dr. Suarez, the chief veterinary inspector of the Argentine Government and a very eminent veterinarian, Dr. Huerta, who is the chief veterinary and a very eminent expert under the Government of Brazil. I may mention in connection with Dr. Huerta that he professes, rightly or wrongly, to have discovered, and is in fact using, a preventative serum which was found first of all to be successful in preventing the spread of rinderpest which has been rather seriously prevalent in Brazil. He has used it also in the case of foot-and-mouth disease with, as he alleges, very remarkable preventative results. But in any case, entirely sympathising with the contention of the noble and learned Viscount opposite, my point is that you cannot expect a Committee effectively to conduct research into this or any other scientific problem. Those working on the Committee—and there are indeed in this country several eminent research workers who are working under this Committee—might be invited to co-operate with those who are carrying on similar work in countries which are more seriously devastated by the same disease.
There are certain observations which were made in the course of a letter addressed to The Times by Sir William Haldane, who I think is a brother of the noble and learned Viscount, and who, I believe, is also a Development Commissioner, It would not have been appropriate for me to have commented before to-day upon the contents of that letter, because the Ministry of Agriculture had in no way made public officially the purport of my preliminary Report which was made to them on my return from South America, but perhaps I may be allowed to take this opportunity of saying that when Sir William Haldane says, as he does in this letter, that it "has passed beyond the power of the Argentine authorities to save the herds of that country from this devastating disease," I can only say that personally I do not support that view, after carefully investgating
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the position on the spot. I cannot help feeling that with the sincere and hearty support which I think we may expect from the leading estancieros of the Argentine to their own Government in carrying out, as they obviously intend to carry out, our demands in relation to restrictions and penalties under the Decree which the Argentine Government has just issued, the position in the Argentine will very materially improve, and that there is not sufficient ground for such an alarmist statement as that.
I notice that Sir William Haldane goes on to quote a paper, a well-known organ of public opinion in South America, the Review of the River Plate, as saying:—
"The facts stated are, however, sufficient to prove that there is too much of the spectacular and too little of the practical in the preventive measures which have thus far found favour with the Argentine officials…"
My comment upon that is that all South American Governments do indulge, perhaps, in spectacular legislative efforts to a greater extent than those of Western European countries, and no doubt they lay rather more stress upon what may be called the printed or the written word without considering perhaps as seriously as we should its prompt and effective enforcement. Still, I am bound to say, after most careful and detailed negotiations with the representatives of the Argentine Government, with which the President of the Republic was in entire sympathy from our point of view, that I am perfectly convinced that whatever may have been the case prior to my visit, the Argentine authorities are determined to do their utmost to carry out their Decree, which embodies to a very large extent, though not entirely, the conditions which we asked them to adopt some six or nine months ago.
I know that personally I have been criticised for not demanding from the South American Governments the same drastic Regulations as are in force in respect of this disease in this country. The answer is that these South American Governments stand in relation to this highly infectious disease in a similar position to where we stood say sixty years ago. Any attempt rapidly to enforce penalties upon the estancieros of that country when they have never been used to effective control in the matter of disease would, I am quite sure, defeat

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its own end. That is the impression I have formed, and I am bound to say that the British community of Buenos Aires and of other large towns in South America hold exactly the same opinion. If we try to force the pace in this matter, we shall not obtain what we desire. I made an earnest appeal to that most powerful of all bodies in the rural areas of the Argentine, the Rural Society of Argentina, asking them to do their utmost to point the way in carrying out the requirements of this new Argentine Decree, which embodies our demands. I used these words—and I am not in the least ashamed of them—"I appeal to your honour and conscience to do what you can to see that our British requirements are carried out." I am bound to tell you that I believe those words are likely to have more effect than anything that has been done so far. The appeal has been embodied in a letter which has been addressed by the council of this powerful organisation to all the estancieros throughout the whole of this large country. I have only recently received a letter from their president to the effect that they have every hope that it will produce the required effect, and that the new Decree of the Argentine Government will be faithfully carried out.
When the noble and learned Viscount opposite suggests that a first-rate young investigator should be found, and entrusted with the special task of this very difficult research work, I entirely support his contention, but, as has been discovered in other fields of scientific endeavour, these men are very hard to find. I do not know whether the noble and learned Viscount realises this, but the one outstanding fact that emerged from our Imperial Agricultural Research Conference which met last October in this country and was attended by scientific representatives from all over the Empire, was that men are to-day not available in sufficient numbers to carry out agricultural research of any description to the extent that we desire and require throughout the British Empire. In fact, representatives of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge who were present had to admit that there was not a sufficient number of the right type of man for producing this very difficult human article—namely, a really efficient research
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worker. Subject only to that, I am in entire agreement with the suggestion. If such a young man could be found, and brought into sympathetic contact with this work, I am sure we should much sooner come to the discovery, from which we are still so far, of what is really the nature of this germ, which is ultra-microscopic, and which is also filterable. That discovery would give the means to prepare that preventative virus, which probably is the solution of our difficulty far more than any attempt to cure the disease. I hope this drastic and expensive policy of slaughter may, by such discoveries, soon be brought to an end, to the advantage of our flocks and herds, and also to the alleviation of the pockets of the taxpayers of this country.
LORD ERNLE: My Lords, I do not propose to press my Motion for papers. I presume we shall have laid before us as soon as possible the full details of what we asked of the Argentine, and what they are prepared to do. I would, however, venture to appeal to the Ministry, after the rather vague answer which I have received to my very definite Questions to consider whether unless they show more activity in this matter, they will be able any longer to rely upon loyal co-operation in carrying out the slaughter policy, which is quite sure to be ineffective if the farmers do not support it. I do not think we have heard in the answer of the Minister, and still less, if he will allow me to say so, in Lord Bledisloe's contribution to the debate, anything likely to be comforting to the farmers of this country.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Secretary of State for India, I beg to move the Motion which stands in his name on the Paper.
Moved, That the following Lords be appointed to serve on the Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs, and that the Committee have power to agree with the Commons upon the appointment of a Chairman—

Earl of Midleton,

Viscount Chelmsford,

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Lord Harris,

Lord Lamington,

Lord Ampthill,

Lord Islington,

Lord Hardinge of Penshurst,

Lord Southborough,

Lord Clwyd,

Lord Meston,

Lord Olivier.

—(Viscount Gage.)
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith, to request them to appoint eleven members of that House to be joined with the said Committee.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the First Report from the Select Committee.
The Committee reported as follows:—

1. RE-APPOINTMENT OF SUB-COMMITTEES.
The Sub-Committee on the Library was re-appointed, consisting of the following Lords:—

The Earl of Ilchester.

The Viscount Haldane.

The Viscount Finlay.

The Lord Wigan (Earl of Crawford).

The Lord Hylton.

The Lord Colebrooke.

The Lord Ernle.

The Lord Darling.

The Sub-Committee on the Refreshment Department was re-appointed, consisting of the following Lords:—

The Marquess of Lincolnshire.

The Earl of Clarendon.

The Viscount Younger of Leckie.

The Lord Muir Mackenzie.

The Lord Lambourne.

With the Clerk of the Parliaments.

2. PENSION OF RETIRING RESIDENT SUPERINTENDENT.
The Committee were informed that Mr. Whitehead, the Resident Superintendent, was due to retire at the end of the financial year. The Committee sanctioned the following payments to him on his retirement, calculated in accordance with the Superannuation Act, 1909: (a) a pension of £121 per annum and a supplementary pension, subject to quarterly revision, calculated on the current rate of bonus; this supplement at the present rate of bonus amounts to £33 18 s.: (b) a capital sum by way of additional allowance calculated on his present rate of salary together with the 75 per cent. of the current bonus, amounting to £396 6s. 2d.
In calculating the pension and allowance, the value of the Resident Superintendent's official residence had been included at the
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assessed amount, namely £140. This was sanctioned by the Committee. The question of the approval of the appointment of a successor to Mr. Whitehead was postponed.

3. PENSION OF DOORKEEPER.
The Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod invited the attention of the Committee to a petition from one of the Doorkeepers, Captain E. Clague, for an extension of service from the 17th of June next, when he is due to retire, to the 31st March, 1929, in order to enable him to complete the length of service necessary to qualify him for the maximum pension on retirement.
The Committee decided, in accordance with their recommendation of the 9th of July, 1925, Captain Clague should retire on the normal date, but on retirement should be granted a pension at the rate to which he would have been entitled if he had served the full three years at the higher rate of pay.

4. ROYAL GALLERY.
The Committee considered the proposals for the decoration of the Royal Gallery.
The Chairman of Committees referred to certain correspondence that had passed since the debate in the House of Lords on the 6th of July last. The Viscount Peel, First Commissioner of Works, made a statement to the Committee.
The Committee resolved that the Viscount Peel be asked to arrange for the submission of all designs in connection both with the House of Lords' War Memorial and with the proposed decoration of the Royal Gallery to the Royal Fine Art Commission forthwith.
THE EARL OF DONOUCHMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the first Report from the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be now considered and adopted.
Moved, That the first Report from the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be now considered and adopted.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, this Report relates, in the fourth paragraph, to the Royal Gallery and to War Memorial of your Lordships' House, and the Offices Committee of the House of Lords has recorded its opinion that designs in connection both with the House of Lords' War Memorial and with the proposed decoration of the Royal Gallery should be referred forthwith to Royal Fine Art Commission. I have the honour of being a member of that Commission, and I would say at once that, if this House should express such a wish, my colleagues on that Commission will do their utmost to be of service. The

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subject is one of real complexity and, in point of fact, advice has already been offered on several questions connected with the War Memorial. The Fine Art Commission has expressed its opinion about the employment of the recess in the Royal Gallery for the monument, about the lateral statues which flank the recess, about the projected method of lighting from the ceiling and, finally, as to the disposition of the names of the deceased.
I really doubt if my colleagues will be in a position to add anything to their views about the Memorial itself, but a new issue will be brought before them arising from the projected decoration of the Gallery. That certainly raises points of great interest and great difficulty, because any large scheme of mural decoration must be considered in relation to the scale of the Gallery itself and equally in relation to the two great pictures by Maclise from one of which the Gallery takes one of its names. Furthermore, the relation of a large suite of paintings to the War Memorial is naturally of great importance. If the necessary data for forming a judgment are available for the information of the Royal Commission, I can assure your Lordships that we will give the matter our most careful attention and will make our views known to the Chairman of Committees at the earliest convenient moment.
LORD CAWLEY: My Lords, I should like to say that I really feel that most of these matters ought to have been considered a good while ago. It is now some nine years since this fund was set on foot, and some of us who are very deeply interested in it are beginning to feel that we may not live long enough to see the Memorial put up. I hope that the Lord Chairman and the noble Earl who has just spoken will do all in their power to hasten matters.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for making his request. That is what I have been doing for nine years, and I quite appreciate his feelings. The big question before your Lordships at this moment has nothing to do with the Memorial. It is the question of the decoration of the Royal Gallery, which is a very much larger one than that of the Memorial. I quite admit that the latter is mixed up with it. That is inevitable, and I am not blaming anybody. I am not entitled to speak for the First Commissioner of Works, who is going to submit this matter to my noble friend and his colleagues, but I need not say with what pleasure I have heard the statement that the noble Earl has made as to his willingness to consider it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at a quarter before six o'clock.