*IPSWICH GAS ORDER, 1928. (Hansard, 19 December 1928)

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
My Lords, I should like to ask the view of the Lord Chancellor on the question of the approval of the Ipswich Gas Order which we have just been discussing.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM)
The noble Earl knows very well that the Lord Chancellor has no authority in a matter of this kind, and I think he had better address his question to the Leader of the House.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
Perhaps I might be allowed to ask the noble Marquess whether in regard to this Gas Order he now thinks that that Order has been approved by the House or not, as it was put down for four o'clock but was taken five minutes before that hour.

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)
My Lords, I was unfortunately not in my place at the time mentioned by the noble Earl. Except in the point of time I gather that there was no question of any irregularity, and as to that I think your Lordships' House is really the judge in its own cause and can do as it pleases. If the House sanctions what has been done nothing more need be said.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
I really cannot allow that. It really will not do. In the future, is it to be possible for His Majesty's Government to put down an Order for four o'clock and then take it at a quarter to four or any time that may be convenient to them, when it may happen that those who are opposed to it are not present in the House? That really will not do and we really must insist that this Order is put down for another day and is not regarded as having been approved at all. I am quite sure the noble Marquess, who is generally so anxious that things in this House should be done in order and that proper attention and due regard should be paid to Standing Orders, will agree with me 689 after a little reflection that this House cannot allow Bills put down for a certain hour to be taken even one minute before the hour for which they are put down. Therefore I hope the noble Marquess will allow this Order to be put down for another day.

§ LORD PARMOOR
My Lords, before the noble Marquess replies I should like to make this suggestion. I do not know whether the noble Earl was here when this Ipswich Gas Order was put to the House—I think he was—but surely that is the time to take the objection. Supposing no objection is taken, and even if there is an informality as regards time, I should have thought it was quite clear that the decision of the House had been given. I quite agree that an Order ought not to be taken before the time fixed. That is another matter, but this Order has been passed It was passed without objection in the ordinary way.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, I think perhaps I can put this right. I am quite sure that I do not yield for a moment to the noble Earl in my desire that the proceedings of this House should be conducted with scrupulous regard to the interests of everybody, and although we are a little irregular sometimes In our proceedings yet I quite agree with him, that to take an Order at a time when it is not expected would be a gross breach of regularity which ought not to be admitted. The noble Earl, however, desires that this Order should be put down another day. I do not think that would be reasonable What I would suggest is this: if an irregularity has taken committed then may we assume that what has taken place is null and void? If that be so, let the question be put again from the Woolsack and in that case if your Lordships are pleased to pass it there will be no question. I would rather not pronounce as a humble member of your Lordships' House upon the regularity or irregularity of the proceeding, but what I do think is important is that there should not be any doubt about it. Therefore, if the noble Earl, who is a very responsible and important member of your Lordships' House, raises the question, let us by all means put it right for greater security and, as we may treat the Question which was put a few minutes 690 before the right time as null and void, may I suggest that your Lordships should ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack to put the Question again? In that case I fancy I have the consent of your Lordships to this proceeding, and I beg to move in regard to the Ipswich Gas Order that the Special Order which was presented to the House be approved.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
Will the noble Marquess move it in that form or will he move it in the form that the approval of the House which has been given be confirmed, so that we may be technically in order seeing that the Order has already been approved, though the approval may have been irregular?

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, I beg to move, as the noble and learned Lord suggests, that the approval of the Special Order which was presented to the House on November 27 be confirmed.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
I am much obliged to the Leader of the House for having so far met my objection, but do hope he will realise what a serious position we are in. Are we never to be able to rely upon the Standing Orders and upon the Notices put upon the Paper in your Lordships' House? A measure of first class importance might possibly be taken when there is not a person in the House. Really it does seem to me that, once an Order is put on the Paper for four o'clock, every member of your Lordships' House has very real ground of complaint if it is taken five minutes before. How can we trust the Government? Really, I do ask myself what reason there is for circulating any Order or giving any information in regard to the time if we cannot rely upon it, and if we cannot be sure that matters of very much more importance than this are not going to be taken when there is not a person in the House. In those circumstances, though I have no wish to object to the passage of the -Ipswich Gas Order, I do wish we could have from some responsible person—I do not know to whom to apply—some kind of promise that this kind of thing will not occur again.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I can assure the noble Earl that he has taken the very best means of preventing it ever happening again. He has called attention to it in the most public manner, and he has asked us to put the matter right. I have done my very best to meet him. I quite agree with him in substance, though the matter seems a very slight variation from our Rules. I can assure him that after his protest and after the action the House has taken there upon, he may rely upon it that it will never occur again.