HL Deb 04 December 1928 vol 72 cc361-8

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My Lords, in moving that the House resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, may I say in two words that the Amendments I have put on the Paper are accepted by the Institute of Architects, and that they are nearly all inserted to meet the wishes of the Institute of Civil Engineers and the Surveyors' Institution. Several of them are purely drafting Amendments, and only one has any question of substance at all and that is rather small.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Crawford.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I wish to say to my noble friend that, though the Government have not put down any Amendments to the Bill, I do not want him to think that we preclude ourselves hereafter from taking another course. On the Third Reading perhaps an Amendment, may be proposed. I do not think it is of very great importance, indeed I believe it to be a minor matter, but I should not like my noble friend to think because there are no Amendments put down now that we were not keeping it open to ask him on Third Reading, if we desire to do so, to agree to a particular Amendment.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5:

Persons entitled to be registered without examination.

(3) For the purposes of this section there shall be appointed annually an Admission Committee consisting of twenty-four persons, one to be nominated by each of the twelve bodies specified in the Second Schedule to this Act and twelve persons to be appointed by the Council, of whom ten persons shall be members of the Institute, one person shall be nominated by the Incorporation of Architects in Scotland, and one person shall be nominated by the Ulster Society of Architects (Incorporated). The Admission Committee shall continue in existence for such period as may be necessary to deal with questions arising under subsection (2) of this section.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, in subsection (3), to substitute "eleven bodies" for "twelve bodies." The noble Earl said: The Surveyors' Institution desired to have their name removed from the Second Schedule of the Bill—that is, the Admission Committee. The name was inserted with their consent, and I believe at their instance, originally. Now they desire no longer to serve in that capacity. I accordingly move that the word "twelve" be left out and "eleven" inserted.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 39 leave out ("twelve") and insert ("eleven").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "twelve persons" and insert "thirteen persons." The noble Earl said: This is consequential in the sense that it provides an alternative member for the member who would have been ruminated by the Surveyors' Institution.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 90, leave out ("twelve") and insert. ("thirteen").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 42, after ("the") insert ("Surveyors' Institution, one person shall be nominated by the").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6 [Council to prescribe future qualifications for registration]:

LORD DANESFORT

May I ask my noble friend if he has considered the question which I raised on the Second Reading of this Bill, as to the body who had charge of the arrangements for, and the conducting of, the examinations which an architect will have to pass before registration. Examinations are not very pleasant things as some of your Lordships who have had to submit to them know very well. I agree that in this case a proper examination is absolutely essential, but I hope that the examination will be strictly appropriate for the purposes for which it is conducted. My doubt, which I expressed on Second Reading, is whether the body—I am not quite sure how many compose it—is the best body that could be set up in order to arrange for these examinations. Perhaps my noble friend can tell me now whether he has considered the point which I raised, and whether it is quite certain that proper Committees are possible of this very large body which is mentioned in the Second Schedule and that these Committees will be sufficient in number and in quality to deal with the very important matters which will be committed to their charge.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

It is impossible, naturally, for me to predict what course will be followed by a Committee which, as my noble friend rightly points out, is very large. It consists of fifty individuals nominated by various bodies. But it is quite clear that the Board of Architectural Education, set up in the First Schedule under Clause 6 of the Bill, is already invested with large powers and considerable discretion. The Bill gives that Committee discretion as to time and place and very largely as to the nature of examinations. Under those conditions I am advised by my friends who are learned in the law that this body is empowered to appoint Sub-Committees to which it is authorised to delegate its responsibilities. There is nothing in the Bill to say so; there is nothing in the Bill to say that the Board of Architectural Education shall keep minutes; but those rights are inherent, I understand, in Committees set up in this fashion, and once Parliament begins to lay down that such and such a body shall keep minutes, or that such and such a body shall have the right to appoint sub-committees, you begin to make a schedule of rights and powers which, as I am told, is most undesirable because probably you will leave out something and later on the discretion of the Committee may be there by fettered. That point, therefore, I hope is satisfactorily dealt with.

As regards the other point, nobody likes examinations, but I am confident of this, that certainly as regards architectural education the tendency nowadays is to ensure that there shall be great disparity of method and style of education. So much the better. There is no uniformity, there is nothing in the nature of stereotyped examinations, and I hope that that will be maintained by the Board, because I am sure that disparity of education in these artistic as well as in these constructional matters is a very excellent thing. I hope that on these two points I may have reassured my noble friend.

Clause 6 agreed to.

Clauses 7 to 10 agreed to.

Clause 11:

Use of title.

11. Any registered person shall be entitled to take and use the name or title of "Registered Architect" or any style containing the words "Registered Architect," but a person shall not practise in Great Britain or Northern Ireland under any name, title, or style containing the words "Registered Architect," unless he is a registered person, and any unregistered person who so practises or wilfully pretends to be a registered person, or takes or uses the name or title of a Registered Architect or any name, title, style or description implying that he is a registered person, shall on summary conviction be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds for the first offence and one hundred pounds for every subsequent offence: Provided that, subject to the provisions of this section, nothing in this Act shall prevent any local authority or person performing any act or operations in connection with the construction of buildings which such local authority or person was entitled to perform prior to the passing of this Act: Provided also that nothing in this section shall affect the validity as between contracting parties of any act of any person under any customary form or conditions of a building contract.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved to leave out "or any style containing the words Registered Architect'" The noble Earl said: I move to omit the whole of the last line of page 5 of the Bill because the words are tautological and are covered by the words at the top of page 6.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 41, leave nut ("or any style containing the words Registered Architect'").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, in the first proviso, after "local authority," to insert "corporate body." The noble Earl said: I move to insert these words at the request of the Institution of Civil Engineers. They think that the words rather extend the scope and therefore it is an Amendment which they are anxious for your Lordships to accept. I accept it.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 13, after ("authority") insert ("corporate body").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL or CRAWFORD moved, in the first proviso, before "the construction," to insert "the design or." The noble Earl said: This is the only Amendment in my name of any interest or substance of all those that I have to move to-day. The Bill, in line 14 on page 6, speaks about the performance of "any act or operations in connection with the construction of buildings." The Institution of Civil Engineers have suggested that the wording of the proviso should be extended to introduce the word "design," so that if this Amendment is accepted it will read "design or construction of buildings." It certainly is an extension of the rights conferred on the Institution of Civil Engineers and other similar bodies, but as it is not one to which architects or their Institute object, I suggest that your Lordships should accept it.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 14, after ("with") insert ("the design or").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, in the first proviso, after "buildings," to insert "of a nature." The noble Earl said: This is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 14, after ("buildings") insert ("of a nature").—(The Earl of Crawford)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 15, after ("authority") insert ("corporate body").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 12 to 18 agreed to.

Clause 19:

Saving for other bodies.

19. The provisions of this Act, other than the provisions of the section of this Act of which the marginal note is "Use of title," shall not, unless he is a registered person, apply to any person who is or may at any time hereafter he a professional member of the Institution of Civil Engineers or is a professional member of any of the bodies specified in the. Second Schedule to this Act, or of such other professional body as may from time to time be approved by the Council or to any person when performing any of the duties or functions connected with any office held by him under ally public or local authority or to the department of any undertaking the head of which is a registered person: Provided that nothing in this section shall operate to prevent a professional member of any body referred to in the said Schedule, or of such other body as may from time to time be approved by the Council from being registered under this Act if he is duly qualified for registration under the provisions of this Act.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, after the first "person," to insert "or has made application to the Council for registration under Section five of this Act." The noble Earl said: I have put down several Amendments to this clause at the instance of the Surveyors' Institution and the Institution of Civil Engineers. The first Amendment which I move gives a right of appeal which otherwise, I am afraid, would have been omitted from the Bill. It is not a very important point, but it brings it into conformity with the other part of the Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 30, after the first ("person") insert ("or has made application to the Council for registration under Section five of this Act").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved to leave out the first "professional" and to insert "corporate." The noble Earl said: This Amendment is intended to deal with a technical oversight. "Professional" is not the correct word as defining membership of the Institution of Civil Engineers. It should be "corporate."

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 31, leave out ("professional") and insert ("corporate").—(The Earl of Crawford)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, after Institution of Civil Engineers," to insert "or of the Surveyors' Institution." The noble Earl said: This is to make it correspond to the Surveyors' Institution.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 32, after ("Engineers") insert ("or of the Surveyors' Institution").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD had given notice to move, in the proviso, after "prevent," to insert "any person who is or may be at any time hereafter a corporate member of the Institution of Civil Engineers, or." The noble Earl said: May I have the permission of your Lordships to add at the end of the Amendment on the Paper the words "of the Surveyors' Institution, or." That extends the Bill to corporate members of the Institution of Civil Engineers or of the Surveyors' Institution who may hereafter desire to be registered.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 40, after ("prevent") insert ("any person who is or may at any time hereafter be a corporate member of the Institution of Civil Engineers, or of the Surveyors' Institution, or").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD moved, in the proviso, to leave out the first "body" and insert "of the bodies." The noble Earl said: This is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 41, leave out ("body") and insert ("of the bodies").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 8, line 42, after ("other") insert ("professional").—(The Earl of Crawford)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

First Schedule agreed to.

Second Schedule:

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: moved to leave out "The Surveyors' Institution." The noble Earl said: Your Lordships have just inserted the name of the Surveyors' Institution in Clause 5, and it is therefore unnecessary to include it in the Second Schedule.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 20, leave out ("The Surveyors' Institution").—(The Earl of Crawford.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.