HL Deb 18 March 1926 vol 63 cc699-707

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

Appointment and resignation of county and borough coroners.

2.—(1) On a vacancy occurring in the office of coroner for a county or borough, the council having power to appoint a person to fill the vacancy shall forthwith give notice thereof to the Secretary of State.

(2) Subject to the provisions of this Act relating to the formation and alteration of coroners' districts, within one month after the occurrence of a vacancy in the office of coroner for a county or borough or within such further time as the Secretary of State may allow, the council having power to appoint a coroner shall appoint a duly qualified person to the office and shall forthwith give notice of the appointment to the Secretary of State.

LORD STRACHIE moved, in subsection (2), to substitute "three months" for "one month." The noble Lord said: I hope the Government will accept this Amendment because it is the general wish of county councils to have the period of one month extended to three months in order that there may be time for calling a county council together when an appointment has to be made. Your Lordships are aware that many county councils do not meet as often as once a month and difficulty would he caused if the clause remained as drafted. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 17, leave out ("one") and insert ("three").—(Lord Strachie.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am prepared to accept this Amendment, which seems to me to be quite reasonable.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4:

Abolition of franchise coronership.

(5) The foregoing provisions of this section shall not apply with respect to—

  1. (a) the King's coroner and attorney; or
  2. (b) the coroner of the King's Household; or
  3. (c) the coroner for the Isles of Scilly.

(6) This section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act.

LORD MARSHALL OF CHIPSTEAD moved to insert in subsection (5) "(c) the coroner for the City of London." The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to preserve to the Corporation of the City of London the right to appoint the coroner for that area, which, under the present Bill, would pass to the London County Council. I might mention that the City Corporation have also the right, under a Charter of Edward VI, to appoint the coroner for the ancient Borough of Southwark. Under Clause 4 of the Bill, which abolishes franchise coronerships, that right will pass to the London County Council. The City Corporation recognise that there is much to lie said for this transfer and do not ask, therefore, for any amendment in regard to Southwark. But the right to appoint the coroner for the City of London was granted to the Corporation, in return for a very substantial sum of money, by a Charter of Edward IV and has been exercised by them ever since, without, as far as is known, complaint or even the suggestion that it should be transferred to other hands. I venture to hope, therefore, that this Amendment may have the approval of the Government and he sanctioned by your Lordships' House.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 40, at end insert ("(c) the Coroner for the City of London").—(Lord Marshall of Chipstead.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am prepared to accept this Amendment which, I understand, the Corporation desire to sec inserted in the Bill. It may be necessary to consider at a later stage of the Bill whether some provision should be; inserted which would bring the City Coroner, when the office is next vacated, within some of the provisions of the Bill as to salary, pension and so on. But that, of course, would not affect the Amendment.

LORD MARSHALL OF CHIPSTEAD

The City Corporation are prepared to accept all the other provisions of the Bill. This is the only Amendment asked for, and I am very much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5:

Salaries of county and borough coroners.

5.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section every council having power to appoint a coroner shall pay to every county or borough coroner appointed by them an annual salary at such rate as may be fixed by agreement between them and the coroner.

(2) If at any time a coroner and the council by whom his salary is payable are unable to agree with respect to any proposed alteration of the rate of salary, the Secretary of State may, upon the application either of the coroner or of the council, fix the rate of the salary at such rate as he thinks proper, and thereupon the rate so fixed by the Secretary of State shall come into force as from such date as he may determine, not being a date less than three years from the date when the rate of salary came into force as last fixed, unless in the opinion of the Secretary of State the coroner's area or district has in the meantime been materially altered.

LORD DANESFORT

In the absence of my noble friend Lord Banbury of Southam I nice his Amendment to leave out subsection (2), in order to see what answer will be made to it. The effect of subsection (2) is that if a coroner and the council who have appointed him cannot agree regarding any proposed alteration of the rate of his salary, the Secretary of State may step in and decide what the proper rate of salary shall be. In other words, the Secretary of State comes in to supersede the paymaster and to order the paymaster to pay the coroner at a rate which that paymaster does not want to pay. It seems on the face of it a somewhat unreasonable proposition. As a rule, the man who has to pay is regarded as the proper person to decide what he should pay. Therefore, I move in order to see what real reason there is, if any, for the existence of subsection (2).

Amendment moved— Page 4, lines 7 to 18, leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Danesfort.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My noble friend regards this as an unreasonable provision, but he evidently is not aware that it has been in force as regards counties since the year 1860 and that no complaint has arisen. The proposal now is to extend it to boroughs and as coroners are now paid a salary that is only reasonable. I suppose that one reason for adopting it sixty-six years ago was that a coroner is not an officer of a county council or a county authority. He is a person in a judicial position. True the county council is to select him, but he is mainly a judicial officer and ought not to be entirely subject to the will of the county council as to the amount of his remuneration. The proposal is to give him in boroughs, as in counties, an appeal to the Secretary of State, and I think that is reasonable. I cannot accept the Amendment.

LORD DANESFORT

In those circumstances I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Clause 6:

Superannuation of county and borough coroners.

6.—(1) Upon the retirement of any county or borough coroner after not less than five years' service, the council by whom his salary is payable shall have power—

  1. (a) if he has attained the age of sixty-five years; or
  2. (b) if they are satisfied by means of a medical certificate that he is incapable from infirmity of mind or body of discharging the duties of his office, and that such incapacity is likely to be permanent, 703 to grant to him a pension of such amount as may be agreed upon between him and the council not exceeding the scale contained in the First Schedule to this Act:

Provided that the provisions of this section shall not apply with respect to any coroner holding office at the date of the commencement of this Act unless upon his application a resolution applying those provisions to him is passed by the council by whom his salary is payable.

LORD STRACHIE moved, in subsection (1), after "Upon the retirement of any county or county borough coroner," to insert "holding office at the date of the commencement of this Act." The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to allow only coroners who are already holding office when the Act commences and retire from that office the right to have superannuation without making any contribution. That is to say, I am proposing that only those coroners who were appointed before the passing of this Act should have that great exemption and privilege. I think it is perfectly right that they should have it as they will be giving tip something. But it seems to me only reasonable to ask coroners appointed after the passing of the Act to contribute to the superannuation fund in the same way as all other local government officials.

It will be noticed that I suggest in the next Amendment that they shall make contribution only during the time they hold office; the reason being, of course, that lawyers and doctors, who are professional men take up these appointments late in life, and it would be very unfair to make them pay in the same way as those who have been in local government service for many years. Therefore my proposal is that they should make contribution of only 5 per cent. It does not seem to me unfair or unreasonable that they should be required to do that. I would like to point out that lately the Government adopted that plan in the case of teachers' superannuation. Teachers simply pay a. portion of their salary for the time being: they are not obliged like other officers to pay for the full time of their service. I think we should be creating a rather dangerous precedent if we were to allow any local government officials to be superannuated on high pensions without having required them to contribute anything to a pensions fund. I therefore Leg to move the Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 9, after ("coroner") insert ("holding office at the date of the commencement of this Act").—(Lord Strachie.)

LORD STRACHIE also had an Amendment on the Paper to insert the following new clause after Clause 6:—

"—(1) Every county and borough coroner appointed after the date of the commencement of this Act who shall—

  1. (a) have completed ten years' service and shall become incapable by reason of permanent ill-health or infirmity of mind or body, of discharging the duties of his office with efficiency; or
  2. (b) have attained the age of sixty-five year,
shall be entitled on resigning or otherwise ceasing to hold his office to receive the maximum pension which the council by whom his salary is payable is empowered, having regard to the length of his service, to grant to him in accordance with the scale contained in the First Schedule to this Act and shall, as from the date of his appointment, contribute towards his pension an amount equal to five per centum of his salary, which amount shall be deducted from the salary payable to him by the council and shall be applied by the council, in such manner as they may deem expedient, towards the cost of the provision of such pension."

(2) Every county and borough coroner appointed after the date of the commencement of this Act shall, on attaining the age of sixty-five years, cease to hold his office:

Provided that the council may, with the consent of the coroner, extend Ins period of service for one year or any less period and so from time to time as they may deem expedient:

Provided also that no contribution shall be made by the coroner in respect of any such extended period, and any such extended period shall be disregarded in calculating his pension.

(3) The provisions of sections ten, eleven, twelve and thirteen of the Local Government and other Officers Superannuation Act, 1922, which relate to the return of contributions in certain cases, shall, so far as the same are applicable, apply to contributions made under this section."

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I think it would be convenient to take the Amendment just moved and the noble Lord's next Amendment together, because they really depend upon one another. The proposal in the Bill, as the noble Lord has said is that coroners, when they retire, shall be allowed such pensions as they may agree with the county councils, and shall not contribute to any pension fund. That, I agree, differs from the course usually followed in the case of holders of public offices. Where, as in the case of teachers, the men and women are appointed quite young, so that they may make a good many contributions to a pension fund before they come upon the fund, it is reasonable that the practice, now so familiar, of forming a fund and exacting a yearly contribution and paying a pension out of the fund should be followed. But there is a real difficulty in applying that system to coroners, and the chief reason—not the only one—is that they are appointed at an advanced age. They are usually men of experience, either experienced lawyers or experienced doctors, who have practiced and made a name and have obtained their knowledge. I am told that the average age of appointment of coroners is something like fifty. It is quite impossible, if you are appointing men of the age of fifty, to form any kind of superannuation fund by means of any reasonable yearly contribution.

The figure of 5 per cent. which the noble Lord has taken is not founded, I gather, upon any calculation actuarial or other. It is a chance figure, and I am satisfied, if the matter were examined, it would be found that that percentage is perhaps quite enough for the younger men, but of no use at all in the case of men appointed at an advanced age. So the method has been adopted in the Bill of saying that a coroner shall, after a period, be entitled to such pension as he may agree with the county council—I suppose he might agree either at the date of his appointment or later—but that he shall make no contribution, the object being that the matter shall be considered in fixing his salary. If the county council are going to appoint a young man they would make very little reduction from the normal figure with a view to superannuation, but if they were appointing an older man they might reduce the salary somewhat more so as to provide some compensation or protection for themselves if the officer should become pensionable. It is a matter that is easily worked out. I think it would work very well and upon the whole it seems to the Government and to the Home Office to be a better system to follow in this special case than to endeavour to form a superannuation fund as in the case of other officers. Will the House also remember that the coroners of a county are very few? A borough would usually have only one coroner. You cannot hope to form a fund for a small body of that kind, and you have to resort to special means. On the whole the Government; think it is better to adhere to the proposals in the Bill than to make the radical change that the noble Lord desires. I hope he will not press his Amendment.

LORD OLIVIER

It seems to me undesirable to leave the matter in such a vague state in order that there might be precision with regard to the salary a provision was inserted that there should be an appeal to the Secretary of State. Would not the same argument apply for the necessity of having some prescribing or regulating authority with regard to the pensions? Is it not possible, for example, to apply to the pensions of coroners some fixed principle of allowance for professional qualifications such ns has been done in regard to the judicial and other offices to which persons are appointed at an advanced age? This seems to me to leave it to a bargain between the coroner and the county council, and it would be just as much open to objection to leave the pension the subject of a bargain as it would be to leave the question of the salary.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

If some proposal of that kind should be made will consider it.

LORD STRACHIE

The Lord Chancellor has appealed to me not to press this Amendment, and of course at this hour of the evening I do not desire to do so. At the same time I would wish to correct the statement that the learned Lord Chancellor made in regard to my argument. No doubt it was entirely my fault, but I did point out that while it was quite true you could not expect aged coroners to subscribe in the same way as young officers subscribe, it would not he hard to require them to make some contribution, out of the large sum that they will receive as salary, towards superannuation. It seems to me to be only fair that they should be required to do that, and that was the object of my Amendment.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I quite understood that.

LORD STRACHIE

I did not think the noble and learned Viscount did. I agree that it would be ridiculous to require a man of the age of fifty to pay the same as a young man, but after what the noble and learned Viscount has said I will not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clauses 6 to 23 agreed to.

Clause 24:

Power to make rules.

24. The Lord Chancellor may, with the concurrence of the Secretary of State, make rules for regulating the practice and procedure at or in connection with inquests and, in particular (without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision), such rules may provide— (d) as to the procedure to be followed where a coroner decides not to resume an adjourned inquest; and

THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in paragraph (d), after "inquests," to insert "and post-mortem examinations." The noble and learned Viscount said: this is only to enable rules to be made as to post-mortem examinations and the forms of certificate to be sent to the coroners, and matters of that kind. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 16, line 3, after ("inquests") insert ("and post moriem, examinations").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Schedules agreed to.