PART II. (Hansard, 13 July 1926)

§ LORD DESBOROUGH
I cannot accept this Amendment. The kingfisher cannot possibly be classed as a rare bird. In a great many cases it does infinitely more harm than the raven. I remember trying to bring salmon to the Thames and I stocked a number of streams with that interesting fish. The fish mysteriously disappeared, although no kingfishers were found there. We had some wire nets put up and no fewer than sixty kingfishers committed suicide upon them. That shows that although you may not see the kingfishers they are not by any means rare birds. There are many birds which have a, much greater claim to go into the protected Schedule than the kingfisher, and the Government cannot accept this Amendment.

§ VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON
I hope your Lordships will not accept this Amendment. The greatest amount of damage that is done by hawks is done by the sparrowhawks, and damage is also done by the kestrel occasionally. The sparrowhawk and the kestrel are exempted from the protection which this Bill gives. So far as that is concerned, the notoriously mischievous hawks, of which the kestrel is hardly one, receive no protection. If the noble Lord's Amendment is carried we shall have hawks like the hobby, beautiful and comparatively rare, which have no protection. One is told that in the case of these rare hawks the places where they nest are marked down to enable egg collectors to add to their collections. I think that if you exclude from protection all hawks, including the harriers, which do very little damage to game, it would be a serious blemish on the Bill. They are not numerous enough in any part of the country to do damage to game, but some people have gone to a heat deal of trouble to restore them as a breeding species.

§ LORD DESBOROUGH
May I say on behalf of the Home Office that they think that protection should not be removed from falcons, harriers and hawks of all species. I hope my noble fiend will not persist in his Amendment.

§ LORD BUCKMASTER
Following my own unguided inclination I had prepared quite a long list of birds that I was anxious to put into the First Schedule. I then had the privilege of an interview with Viscount Grey, who treated me so severely that I eliminated all except the golden-crested wren. I certainly thought the size and charm of that bird might 1035 enable it to creep into the Schedule without anyone objecting at all. I have, however, had a further interview with Viscount Grey and he has explained that if I move my Amendment with regard to this bird and with regard to others that I desire to put into the Second Schedule, I shall dislocate the Bill. As I appreciate very much both the value of the advice and the enormous value of his assistance, I feel I must sacrifice the whole of my birds and let them be left to the tender mercies of bird-nesting boys. I should like, however, before abandoning them altogether, to explain that it was not I who was responsible for wishing to insert in the Second Schedule a bird called the whitechat.

§ LORD DESBOROUGH
The object of this Amendment is to allow owners and occupiers to shoot geese during the close season. The Government do not view the Amendment with any great favour. There are very few geese that do nest in this country. I suppose the grey lag is about the only one. If owners and occupiers were allowed to shoot geese 1036 in the close season it would be very difficult to carry out the close season for ducks.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL
I should like to know how many wild geese are killed in a year, and what is the immense damage that is being done by sportsmen to these geese?

§ LORD DESBOROUGH
And I should like to know what is the immense damage to crops referred to?

LORD LOVAT
I hope my noble friend will go on with this Amendment. Almost right along the east coast of Scotland geese assemble in great flocks in March and April and some of them, such as the brent geese, are there quite late in the year. They do a certain amount of damage and have to be scared off the crops. I think the idea that if they are not shot some of these geese are going to alter the whole of their habits and come to nest in Scotland is one of the most extraordinary ideas I have heard. I am quite sure that Lord Grey will not associate himself with the idea that if we do not shoot in March and April geese which do not nest and never have been known to nest in the British Isles, they will alter the habit formed long before crops were thought of.

§ VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON
Some inquiry was made about this, but I have not been able to ascertain that serious damage is done by brent geese. I have not heard of their doing damage to craps. I should have thought that the only damage would have been done by various kinds of grey geese, which do go on the fields in the autumn. It is very desirable that the grey lag geese should be protected. We cannot very well distinguish between the varieties of grey geese, and say that one grey goose may be shot and others not. I should have thought that it would be better to leave it to the Scottish Office to deal, by the system of licence, with cases where these wild geese do damage, rather than to allow the shooting of wild geese generally for a month later than is the case at the present time.