HL Deb 08 July 1926 vol 64 cc937-44

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 12 [.Powers of entry and sampling]:

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD BLEDISLOE) moved, in the proviso in subsection (1), to leave out ''thereof," and to insert "of the county or county borough in which the said premises are situate." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a purely drafting Amendment in order to make the meaning clearer.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 15, leave out ("thereof") and insert the said words.—(Lord Bledisloe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16:

Prohibition against disclosures.

16. If any inspector or official sampler discloses, except for the purposes of proceedings for alleged offences, any information obtained by him in or in connection with the exercise of his powers under this Act, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved to leave out "or official sampler." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this clause, I may remind you, is intended to afford some protection to manufacturers against a public officer making use of information, acquired during his visit to a manufacturer's premises, to disclose trade secrets to the detriment of the manufacturer and for the benefit of his rivals. I propose to leave out the words "or official sampler" because, in fact, no official sampler has any right of entry on the premises of a manufacturer.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 29, leave out ("or official sampler ").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD PARMOOR

IS the noble Lord quite certain that the omission of these words will not affect the protection which he says it is intended to afford? Is this the only place in the Bill where the words "official sampler" occur?

LORD BLEDISLOE

No, they occur in many different parts of the Bill. This is a very simple point indeed. An inspector has the right to enter a manufacturer's premises for the purposes of this Bill, but an official sampler has no such right. It was by inadvertence that these words were originally included.

EARL RUSSELL

But would it do any harm to leave them in? Is it not a fact that the official sampler may become possessed of knowledge which it is undesirable that he should divulge?

LORD BLEDISLOE

I should like to look into that between now and the Third Reading, but I think as a matter of fact that the fears of the noble Earl are not well founded. However, if the Amendment is accepted now, we can, if necessary, reinstate the words on the Third Reading.

EARL RUSSELL

In that case I will not oppose the Amendment now.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, after "except," to insert "to persons acting in the execution of this Act or". The noble Lord said: My Lords, there is, I think, a little more substance in this Amendment. On reconsideration of this clause it is considered that it possibly goes a little further than was originally intended. I am moving to insert these words for this reason. There are a certain number of public officers who have the right to enter trade premises for other purposes than for those of contemplated legal proceedings. By way of illustration, I may mention that an officer might be asked by the Ministry of Agriculture to inspect a register of marks, such as is provided for in lieu of the detailed description under Clause 4 of this Bill, in order to ascertain whether that register contains an accurate definition of the trade mark. Obviously he should be entitled to do that without any risk of being fined for doing so, it being in the ordinary course of his official duties.

Amendment moved— Page 11, line 30, after ("except") insert ("to persons acting in the execution of this Act or")—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD PARMOOR

I think the noble Lord is quite right in saying that this goes far beyond any drafting Amendment. Personally I am not satisfied with the explanation he has given. I think the words which he proposes are altogether too general, and I hope the noble Lord will not press the Amendment. If, before the Third Reading, any special case such as he has suggested can be brought forward I should not object to putting such words in to meet the case. But if the words are once put in in this general form the protection which it is intended to give the manufacturer as regards nondisclosure may very easily become a dead letter. I am sure the noble Lord does not desire that.

LORD BLEDISLOE

I understand from the noble Lord that he feels that these words go further than is necessary in order to secure the purpose in view. If that is so, perhaps he will allow me to consult with him before the next stage of the Bill, and in the meantime, with the leave of the House, I will withdraw the Amendment.

LORD PARMOOR

That is quite satisfactory.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 21:

General provisions as to legal proceedings.

(3) A prosecution for an offence under this Act may, subject to the provisions of this Act as to the consent of the Minister, be instituted by the person aggrieved or by the council of a county or county borough, and in any case where a sample has been taken by an inspector appointed by the Minister, may be instituted by the Minister.

LORD STRACHIE moved, in subsection (3), after "county borough," to insert "or with the consent of such council by an inspector appointed by such council." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment provides for a third person being authorised to prosecute. As the clause stands it is only the aggrieved person, or the county council, or county borough who may institute these proceedings. I propose to ask your Lordships to permit such prosecution to be instituted by an inspector appointed by such council. It will be very cumbersome and expensive if in all cases—and some of them may be very trifling—it is necessary for the county council to take proceedings either through their clerk or through a solicitor to deal with these matters. It would be much easier to allow the county council to prosecute through one of their own inspectors who has been properly authorised by the county council. The whole responsibility of the county council would be retained, and there could be no objection to such an official acting. I am sure that members of your Lordships' House who are members of county councils will agree with me that this is a very necessary Amendment in order to make the procedure simpler and less expensive for the county council.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 6, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Strachie.)

LORD BLEDISLOE

My Lords, I understand from my noble friend that the County Councils Association feels rather strongly on this matter. Personally I see no objection to the words he proposes to insert, and therefore I am prepared to accept them.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, after Clause 26, to insert as a new clause: —

"Application to Northern Ireland.

.—(1) This Act shall apply to Northern Ireland subject to the following modifications:

  1. (a) The regulations made by the Minister and the Board of Agriculture for Scotland shall apply to Great Britain only:
  2. (b) References to the Minister, and to the Minister and the Board of Agriculture for Scotland acting jointly shall be construed as references to the Ministry of Agriculture for Northern Ireland: Provided that the Ministry of Agriculture for Northern Ireland in-lieu of appointing; a separate advisory committee may in making regulations to be laid before the Parliament of Northern Ireland, act on the advice of the advisory committee appointed for Great Britain:
  3. (c) References to the Treasury shall be construed as references to the Ministry of Finance for Northern Ireland:
  4. (d) References to the Government Chemist shall be construed as references to the Chief Agricultural Analyst, for Northern Ireland:
  5. (e) The reference to the Local Government Act, 1888, shall be construed as a reference to article thirty-eight of the schedule to the Local Government (Application of Enactments) Order 1898:
  6. (f) The expenses of a council incurred in the execution of this Act shall be defrayed, in the case of a county council, out of the county fund as a county at largo charge, and in the case of a county borough, council, out of any rate or fund applicable to the purposes of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1913:
  7. (g) References to Parliament and to His Majesty shall be construed respectively as references to the Parliament and to the Governor of Northern Ireland, and the reference to twenty-one days, occurring in relation to regulations laid before Parliament, shall be construed as a reference to the period prescribed by subsection (1) of section 4 of the Rules Publication Act (Northern Ireland), 1925.

(2) For the purpose of section six of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, this Act, in its application to Northern Ireland, shall be treated as if it had been an Act passed before the appointed day for the commencement of that section."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the object of this clause is to make this Bill applicable to Northern Ireland. The Government of Northern Ireland have particularly asked that this Bill shall apply to Northern Ireland and have agreed this particular clause with the Home Office. I ought, perhaps, to explain that in one sense it raises something in the nature of a constitutional question. This is a purely domestic matter and being a domestic matter it is not a Reserved Service under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. But there is a special reason here for departing from the usual practice. The bulk of the fertilisers and feeding stuffs used in Northern Ireland are either imported direct from England or else are controlled by selling agencies whose headquarters are in London, and it is obviously desirable that there should be some uniformity of regulations as between the farmers, let us say, on the other side of St. George's Channel and the manufacturers and agents on this side. This is the main reason why we are taking this somewhat unusual course in asking you, with the consent of the Government of Northern Ireland, to accept a clause which deals with a non-reserved Service under the Government of Ireland Act.

I ought to point out that this clause substitutes for the specified British authorities corresponding authorities in Northern Ireland and I would particularly draw attention to subsection (1) (b), which provides that instead of appointing a separate Advisory Committee who shall advise the Government in making Regulations for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland may accept the advice of the Advisory Committee set up under this Bill for the purposes of Great Britain. The main object, of course, is to avoid expense and to secure the uniformity to which I have referred. I ought, perhaps, to refer to subsection (2) because Section 6 of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, provides that the Parliament of Northern Ireland shall not have power to repeal or alter the provisions of any Act passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom after the appointed day, and your Lordships will notice that this sub-section provides that, for the purposes of this section in the Government of Ireland Act in its application to Northern Ireland this measure shall be treated as if it had been an Act passed before the appointed day for the commencement of the section. The whole object of that is to enable the Government of Northern Ireland to repeal this measure if they think fit to do so in future in order to meet their own domestic requirements. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 17, line 35, at end insert the said new clause.—(Lord Bledisloe.)

EARL RUSSELL

My Lords, the noble Lord has made an explanation and has informed your Lordships that he is taking a sort of constitutional leap, I gather, in imposing this Bill upon Northern Ireland. He has got the consent of the Government of Northern Ireland, but even that seems to me to be a little dangerous because Governments in power do not always permanently represent the electorate and I do not quite know whether, if you get the consent of a Government to the Bills we might pass in this country, that would always involve the consent of the people. The point I want to make is this. As this Bill is a good and useful one cannot the noble Lord obtain the consent of the Free State as well and make the Bill applicable to Ireland as a whole? It seems to me the noble Lord would create a very useful precedent if he could get the Free State to consent. Perhaps he will consider that.

LORD BLEDISLOE

My Lords, I am afraid the noble Earl is suggesting something which is absolutely beyond my competence. But may I remind him that under the Government of Ireland Act it is clearly within the competence of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to pass an Act or even to insert a provision in another Act applying to Northern Ireland without any right on their part to object to it. In this particular case they have approved, and we have left them a loophole to repeal this provision by their own domestic legislation if they so desire.

LORD CARSON

My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Lord has given your Lordships this explanation because I should be extremely sorry if the slightest doubt was ever raised that Northern Ireland was still part of the United King- dom and subject to the laws that may be imposed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, if it thinks proper. Your Lordships need only be reminded of one fact to see how clear that is. Northern Ireland sends representatives to the Imperial Parliament and is very proud of sending them there. So far as I can see; it will be a very great advantage to Northern Ireland to have exactly the same law in relation to these matters as this country, and I have not the faintest doubt that this step will be welcomed by the Government of Northern Ireland.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 27:

Short title, commencement, repeal and extent.

(4) This Act shall not apply to Northern Ireland.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved to omit subsection (4) of Clause 27. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have to ask the indulgence of the House to move a manuscript Amendment. By an inadvertence the words still remain at the end of the Bill: "This Act shall not apply to Northern Ireland." In order to be consistent I ask your Lordships to permit me to move the omission of those words.

Amendment moved— Page 18, line 6, leave out subsection (4). —(Lord Bledisloe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.