HL Deb 13 December 1926 vol 65 cc1585-9

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve intself into Committee.—(Viscount Gage.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clause 2:

Power of local authorities to make grants or loans.

(4) The following provisions shall have effect with respect to grants under this section: (a) the grant may be made in either of the following ways—

  1. (i) by way of a lump sum payment to be made after the completion of the works; or
  2. (ii) by the provision, during a period not exceeding twenty years, of any part of any periodical sums which may be payable to any persons by way of interest on or repayment of advances made by those persons for the purpose of the works;

LORD OLIVIER moved, in subsection (4), immediately before paragraph (a,) to insert: "Assistance by way of grant shall be given only to an owner of a dwelling of which he is himself the occupier or of which his father, mother, brother, sister, son-in-law or daughter-in-law is the occupier or occupying tenant." The noble Lord said; I have given Notice of this Amendment in order to give effect to the criticism that I ventured to make upon this Bill in your Lordships' House last Friday as regards the grants proposed to be made under the Bill. Under the conditions attached to these grants—namely, that the grant shall not exceed two-thirds of the estimated cost of the works in respect of which it is to be made—they will practically be of no use to the small holders of property in villages who let that property to poor occupants, because they cannot afford to find another £20 when they are going to get an addition of only 1s. a month rent for it. This would not apply to the owners occupying these small cottages, or those whose families occupy them, because they would very likely be able to scrape together the money and think it worth while to pay for the improvement by which they or their families would benefit.

Accordingly my Amendment proposes to allow the Bill to continue to operate with regard to small occupying owners of property or the members of their families. I do not know that there is any comprehensive definition, so I have put in a whole table of affinities. These people should be allowed to receive the benefits of the Bill, but I wish to except from the purposes of the Bill the only class which, in my opinion, will be able to make use of the Bill—that is, those small owners who are themselves owners of house property and who let it. I cannot conceive how noble Lords on the Liberal Benches can support the principle of giving to the owners of estates who, for the most part, as the noble Marquess, Lord Lincolnshire, pointed out the other day, maintain their cottages thoroughly, grants out of public funds in order to enable thorn to house properly the labourers employed upon their estates. This appears to me to be an entirely wrong principle, and I accordingly wish to limit the operation of the grants to occupying owners or members of their families who can expend the money for the benefit of the family (excluding other persons) while leaving all other owners of property to make use of the Bill so far as it allows them facilities for borrowing money under its terms. To those loans I have no objection whatever.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 33, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Olivierv.)

VISCOUNT GAGE

I see that at the conclusion of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Parmoor, on this Bill on the Second Reading, he said: We shall certainly do what we can on this side to further this Bill. Any Amendments we may think necessary will be entirely in that direction and I hope the noble Viscount will regard from that point of view any suggestions we may make.

LORD PARMOOR

I hope that he regards this Amendment in that sense.

VISCOUNT GAGE

Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Olivier, places rather a liberal interpretation on those words, because the Amendment that he proposes will really wreck about three-quarters of the Bill, and I think that the view that he expressed on the Second Reading would tend to wreck the whole of the Bill. He said: With regard to these grants, I think the noble Viscount will see that, where £40 and £50 is needed to put a roof back into condition, none of these small people are going to spend £16 or £20 of their own money on it. Of course we cannot possibly accept this Amendment as, in our view, it excludes at least three-quarters of the persons whom it is desired to assist. We anticipate that the bulk of the cases under this Bill will be those of owners who do not themselves live in the cottages, and the Bill is intended to assist owners of agricultural properties generally to provide more up-to-date cottages for their tenants. The noble Lord must himself agree that the discrimination that he proposes would very largely defeat the object of the Bill, and I really think that I need not waste any more of your Lordships' time in expressing our attitude.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3:

Conditions attaching to dwellings in respect of which assistance has been given by way of grant.

3.—(1) In the case of a dwelling in respect of which assistance has been given under this Act by way of grant the following conditions shall, subject as hereinafter provided, apply in relation to the dwelling for a period of twenty years from the date on which it first becomes fit for occupation after the completion of the works and shall so long as they continue to have effect be deemed to be part of the terms of any lease, agreement for a lease, or tenancy of the dwelling, and shall be enforceable accordingly:— (c) The owner of the dwelling shall from time to time, on being so required by the local authority, give to the authority a certificate to the effect that the foregoing conditions (a) and (b) are being complied with in respect of the dwelling;

VISCOUNT GAGE moved, at the end of paragraph (c) of subsection (1), to insert "and any tenant of the dwelling shall, on being so required in writing by the owner, furnish to him such information as he may reasonably require for the purpose of enabling him to comply with this condition." The noble Viscount said: The object of this Amendment is to enable the owner to whom a grant has been made to comply with paragraph (c) of the statutory conditions which bind the dwelling. That paragraph requires him to certify from time to time that the statutory conditions (a) and (b)—namely, those relating to the class of person who may occupy the dwelling and the rent which may be charged in respect of the dwelling—are being fulfilled. If the actual occupier of the dwelling is not the tenant of the owner but a sub-tenant, the owner might find it impossible, in the absence of the words proposed to be inserted, to discover whether these conditions were, in fact, being fulfilled.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 3, after ("dwelling") insert the said words.—(Viscount Gage.)

LORD PARMOOR

I think that this is really an Amendment which is necessary in order to make clear the provisions of the Bill. That is the view which I take of it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.