HL Deb 14 May 1925 vol 61 cc269-73

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 1:

Power to require returns.

1.—(1) The Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries may annually, by notice served on the occupier of any agricultural land in England or Wales or on the person having the management on behalf of the occupier of any such land, require him to make within such time as is specified in the notice, and in such form and to such person as the Minister may prescribe by regulations made under this Act, a return in writing of the acreage of land in cultivation, specifying the acreage of the several crops thereon, and of the acreage of land in fallow or used for grazing and of the live stock on the land, and of the persons employed thereon, and, if the occupier is also the owner of the land, that fact shall be stated in the return.

The return shall be made with respect to the conditions existing on such date as may be specified in the notice.

(3) (a) Any person who refuses, or without lawful excuse, neglects to make a return required under this Act to be made by him shall he liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding five pounds.

(b) If a return made under this Act is untrue in any material particular, the person by whom the return was made shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds, if it is proved that he knowingly made such untrue return.

LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM had given Notice to move, in subsection (1), to leave out "within such time as specified in the notice" and to insert "within twenty-eight days." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I should like to move the Amendment of which I have given Notice in a somewhat different form—namely, after the word "time" to insert the words "not being less than twenty-one days." I see that the Government have on the Paper an Amendment to insert "fourteen days." Your Lordships will remember that last year the noble Lord opposite, who was in charge of the Bill, offered twenty-one days. I was then prepared to accept twenty-one days, but your Lordships held that twenty-eight days would be a better period, and that period was inserted. I myself much prefer twenty-one days, but I am in the hands of the House; if your Lordships prefer "fourteen days" to "twenty-one days," I should not object to "fourteen days," but I hope that the Government may meet me by accepting "twenty-one days." I beg to move in the altered form.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 11, after ("time") insert ("not being less than twenty-one days").—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)

THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD BLEDISLOE)

My Lords, I am anxious to try and meet the noble Lord as far as possible. I understood that his main complaint was that under a Bill of this sort there was an intention to give general powers to Departments, which they could exercise according to their own sweet will, and not according to the desires of Parliament. So far as the principle is concerned, I am bound to say that I think there is a great deal to be said for the noble Lord's contention, and I for my part am quite prepared to meet him and have put down an Amendment accordingly specifying the period within which these Returns shall be made.

I rather hope, however, that the noble Lord will not press me too hard regarding the length of the period, because it is quite obvious that we must have these Returns within a reasonable time, if they are to be properly collated by the Department with a view to the information and instruction, not merely of the agricultural public, but of the public generally. It is quite obvious that the person making the Return should be allowed sufficient time in which to do so, but at the same time the period should be sufficiently short to enable the collation to commence at as early a moment as possible. Under these circumstances I venture to hope that, since an overwhelmingly large proportion of the Returns are already received within the period of fourteen days, the noble Lord will be prepared to accept the Amendment in the form in which I have placed it upon the Paper.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

There is really no very great difference between fourteen days and twenty-one days, and I hope that the Government will meet my noble friend on this point. Lord Banbury had great success last year, and I hope that the Government will allow him to carry one of his Amendments, as there is really so very little difference.

Loan BLEDISLOE

In view of what the noble Duke has said, I am quite prepared to agree to twenty-one days as a compromise, if your Lordships approve.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM had given Notice to move, in subsection (1), to leave out "and of the persons employed thereon." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I really cannot see what the Government will gain by ascertaining the number of persons employed, but they have put down an Amendment later on which, I think, will make it easier for the farmer to fill up the form, and, as my noble friends upon the Front Bench have met me so far, I propose to agree to the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, and I do not move the Amendment which stands in my name.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, in subsection (1), after "thereon," where that word secondly occurs, to insert "shewing separately the numbers of persons in regular and in casual employment." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have put down this Amendment with a view to trying to meet a point which, I think, was raised by the noble Duke, the Duke of Buccleuch. I think that there is a desire on the part of many of your Lordships that it should be made perfectly clear in these Returns what proportion of the persons returned as employed in the agricultural industry were in regular employment, and what proportion were in casual employment. With that object I have put down these words, which provide that the number of persons in regular employment and the number of persons in casual employment shall be separately stated.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 17, after ("thereon") insert ("shewing separately the numbers of persons in regular and in casual employment").—(Lord Bledisloe.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

The DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, at the end of subsection (1), to leave out "date" and to insert "day." The noble Duke said: My Lords, this is really all but a drafting Amendment. I am informed that the Bill would be rather clearer and easier to understand if the word "day" were put in instead of the word "date," and, if the Government have no objection, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 21, leave out ("date") and insert ("day").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

LORD BLEDISLOE

My Lords, I am quite prepared to accept this Amendment. I cannot quite see what is intended, but I assume that the noble Duke would like to see the day of the week as well as the day of the month, and I think that there may be some force in that suggestion.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD BLEDISLOE moved, in subsection (3), to leave out paragraph (b) and to insert the following new paragraph: (b) If any person makes a return under this Act which is to his knowledge untrue in any material particular, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding ten pounds.

The noble Lord said: As your Lordships will remember, a similar Amendment was moved in Committee as a manuscript Amendment by my noble friend Lord Banbury. I asked the noble Lord to allow me to put his Amendment into a more practicable legal form, and I have done so in this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, leave out lines 3 to 7, and insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Bledisloe.)

LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM

I am quite satisfied.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.