§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Bledisloe.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 (Power of Minister to allow importation of pedigree animals):
§
LORD STRACHIE moved at the end of the Clause to insert the following new subsection:—
Before any order or regulation is made under this Act a draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament, and if an address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-eight days on which that House has sat against the draft or any part thereof, no future proceedings shall be taken thereon without prejudice to making any new draft.
The noble Lord said: I hope my noble friend will accept, this Amendment. It contains the same provisions as my last Amendment on the previous Bill, with regard to the continued power of either House to alter or nullify any regulations made under this very important Bill. Agriculturists are greatly interested in this matter, and I think there would have been a good deal of discussion in another place if the Minister for Agriculture had not accepted a very important Amendment moved by a member representing agriculturists, providing that before these animals are imported there shall be consultation with the Councils of the
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Agricultural Societies for England and Scotland. I wish to have the further safeguard that any Regulation made under the Bill shall come before either House of Parliament. I therefore beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 2, line 23, at end, insert the said new subsection—(Lord Strachie.)
§ LORD BLEDISLOEI do not find it possible to accept this Amendment, and I think that the noble Lord rather misconceives the object of these Orders. First of all no Regulations are involved at all, and the only Orders contemplated are to be made by the Minister for the admission of either single animals or shipments of animals, and it is only proposed to follow the same course which has been followed for the last thirty years, since the passage of the. Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, in the case of animals admitted for exhibition or like purposes. I would be obviously inconvenient if every Order had to appear in draft and to be laid upon the Tables of both Houses, with regard to a matter about which Parliament has already agreed that the Minister should have a discretion. The noble Lord has already pointed out that there is a safeguard provided, if any safeguard be necessary, by a limitation of the discretion of the Minister, because now, by an Amendment inserted in the House of Commons, he has to consult the two premier Agricultural Societies of England and Scotland, respectively, before any shipment can be made. I hope my noble friend will rest content with that. I can give him one illustration of the extreme inconvenience which would follow such a course as he suggests. If Parliament were not sitting there might be hung up for a considerable time the admission of pedigree animals from our Dominions which the Dominions desired to see admitted, and with regard to which, in the opinion of the Minister, there was no reason why they should not be admitted.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAMI am rather sorry my noble friend has not accepted the Amendment of the noble Lord opposite, which I think does provide some degree of safety. May I ask Lord Bledisloe a question? He has alluded to the words in Clause 1, "after consultation with the Royal Agricultural Society of England and the Highland and 112 Agricultural Society of Scotland." What does that provision actually mean? We will presume that certain animals are to be imported, and Mr. Wood consults those two societies, and those societies say that they would rather not have these particular animals imported. Will Mr. Wood be able to say: "I have consulted them, I do not agree with their opinion, and I am going to admit these particular animals," or does it really mean that, if the two societies object, the advice of these societies is going to be taken in the matter?
§ LORD BLEDISLOEIt is obvious that if the words "after consultation with" are used it does not mean necessarily that the Minister is going to accept the advice given by these two societies. But; it is very difficult to contemplate a position in which he would not give the most careful and respectful consideration to anything that those two societies suggested, and I think the noble Lord may rest assured that the Minister is not likely to disregard the opinion of those two bodies in any case in which it is given.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAMThat is what I was afraid of. I thought there might be some catch in this. Occasionally, in another place, things are put into Bills which are not always what they seem, and I was very much afraid that this was one of the things which are put in to allay the fears of certain people, and mean practically nothing.
§ LORD BLEDISLOENo.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAMYes. My noble friend Lord Bledisloe has said that the Minister would not lightly disregard such advice. I have not so much trust in Ministers as he has. I am very much inclined to think that they sometimes do foolish things, and are often very obstinate. If a Minister wanted to do anything he would be perfectly prepared to disregard even my advice, and certainly the advice of the Royal Agricultural Society of England. I1 rather hope that my noble friend will persist in his Amendment. If he does I shall certainly vote for it, unless later on an Amendment can be inserted here to give effect to the opinion of the two societies mentioned.
§ LORD STRACHIEI should like to remind my noble friend Lord Bledisloe, that this was a compromise arrived at in another place. He is a member of the Council of the Royal Agricultural Society, as I am, and he knows very well that the Society wanted practically to have a veto on this question, and that only those animals should he brought into the country and entered in the herd books which were approved of by the Council of the Society. That is a very different matter from what is in the Bill. Had that been put in there would have been no objection to the Bill at all, and the arguments of my noble friend would have been good. But this, as I have said, was a compromise, and the Minister is entirely at liberty to consult the Royal Agricultural Society and accept their views or not. There is no safeguard as the Bill stands, and I am certain that agriculturists are very anxious to see the Amendment of my noble friend inserted in the Bill. I may tell my noble friend Lord Bledisloe that, the Royal Agricultural Society supports my view on this matter.
In regard to the Orders, may I remind my noble friend that such Orders have to lie on the Table of both Houses of Parliament when animals are imported? If an antelope was imported an Order would have to be laid on the Table. I have seen such Orders constantly on the Table. I really must press my Amendment.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMay I make this appeal to my noble friend? I think he must see that in the course of these' proceedings in your Lordships House the Government have been most anxious, as they always would be, to meet the views of experts in the matter of agriculture. But if the noble Lord will look at his Amendment he will see that it is an impossible one. I will not refer to the difference between "after consultation with" and "with the consent of." The two things are different. But that is not germane to the present Amendment, and to treat the words "after consultation with the Royal Agricultural Society of England" as my noble friend Lord Banbury has done, as though they had no value whatever is really presuming upon your Lordships' kind consideration. How can my noble friend believe that the Minister of Agriculture would consult 114 these very important bodies and treat their opinion with absolute contempt? I am sure that my noble friend would never have said that except for the sake of making a point in debate. Let me deal with the Amendment as it stands. In the first place, the noble Lord speaks of Regulations. There are no Regulations, and the noble Lord is positively asking your Lordships to insert an Amendment which does not read. There are no Regulations under the Bill, and it is no good asking that Regulations shall be laid upon the Table of the House when there are no Regulations.
Turning now to the Orders under the Bill, the Orders have regard to specific animals and to specific shipments of animals. The noble Lord said that whenever a single animal is to be introduced into this country from our great Dominions under this arrangement, an Order is to be laid on the Table of the House and, unless the House agrees, a particular animal is not to be introduced. That would be using machinery which was quite out of proportion to the matter in hand. This great machinery of the consent of both Houses of Parliament is used for acts of State of great importance, and it is really absurd that every animal of this type which is to be introduced into this country should be protected by the consent of both Houses of Parliament.
Let me point out further that the provision which the noble Lord asks us to insert is to operate even when Parliament is not sitting; so that an unfortunate animal cannot be introduced for months during the Recess. Is that a courteous way of treating our great Dominions? As everybody knows it is out of deference to them that this particular legislation is introduced at all. The thing is not really arguable, and I would ask my noble friend, to whom I make repeated concessions in these agricultural matters, not to press this Amendment.
§ LORD STRACHIEI, of course, accede to the request of the noble Marquess, but may I ask him whether he would consider between now and Report the question of whether Orders should have to be laid on the Table of the House in their draft form, as is the case at the present moment? Then, if the House thought fit it could, when sitting, take objection to 115 an Order. I agree that, had we to wait till the draft Order was made, we might have some orders that would be liable to be objected to—
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYDoes the noble Lord suggest that the House of Lords should be asked to consent after the animal has been imported?
§ LORD PARMOORI hope the noble Marquess will not make any concessions. It would make the whole Order ludicrous.
§ LORD STRACHIEI beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ Bill reported, without amendment.