§ VISCOUNT ASTOR rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they propose to take administrative steps to 40 stimulate the dairy industry and increase the use of liquid milk. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, it is my misfortune sometimes to find myself in disagreement with some of your Lordships as to the benefit of certain beverages, but I am certain that to-day there can be no difference of opinion as to the importance and benefit of stimulating, to the maximum extent, the use of liquid milk. It should be the prime food of children, and, as I see it, dairying should be made, to a greater extent than it is now, the cornerstone of agriculture and of the development of our agricultural policy. I understand that in this country the average consumption per head of milk is only about one-sixth of that of Sweden, and about one-third of that of the United States of America, and so there should be a large potential market for the dairyman. If the consumption of milk could be doubled it would be an enormous advantage to the children of this country, and also of great benefit to dairying and agriculture. The first point on which I hope the noble Lord will be able to give us information is whether the Government proposes to bring the Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Act, 1915, into operation. Unless the Government decide to postpone it again it will come automatically into operation again this year, I believe in the month of September. I have never been a whole-hearted supporter of the whole of the proposals in that Act. I believe a great deal more could be done under the Act of 1922.
§ The next point on which I hope the noble Lord will give us information is as to whether the two Departments concerned, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture, propose to revise or amplify the special designations or classifications of milk. At present they are to a certain extent confusing and incomplete. One can claim a licence to sell certified milk or Grade A (tuberculin tested), or Grade A. In addition vendors can sell what they describe as nursery or invalid milk, but in these cases no purchaser knows what he is getting. In London and other large centres milk is often sold as raw milk which has been partially pasteurized. This is a fraud on the public. There is a great deal of merit in pasteurized milk, but I can see no object in selling milk partially pasteurized as raw milk. If the Government intend to revise or amplify or 41 extend the classification or designation of milk it should be done as soon as possible. Nothing can be more prejudicial to the industry than having the classifications altered constantly. We ought to agree on proper classifications, and then leave the matter alone. I would like to suggest that it would be far better to have such distinguishing names as A and B rather than A (t.t.) and A. From the point of view of the general public it would be very much easier to understand the difference between the two grades of milk.
§ I hope the Government will not imagine that I am suggesting that they should attempt to do anything drastic all at once. I think one ought to set out to get improvements in the hygienic quality of milk in the next ten years. The dairying industry should be notified of the principle on which you are endeavouring to proceed. I think it would be fatal to act too precipitately. I was present at a deputation to the Ministry of Health some months ago, when we put various proposals to the Government. We suggested that the Government should draw up model milk regulations. It is most inadvisable that there should be differential classifications in different parts of the country. It is undesirable to attempt to impose any general classification of milk all over the whole country. We suggest that they should draw up model milk regulations and have those adoptive; that is to say, let any large town which desires to do so adopt the regulations and apply them to all milk sold in its own area. We want to have the same designations in all towns and localities which adopt this principle.
§ People are sometimes frightened lest the classification and grading of milk should prejudice the development and prosperity of the industry. My answer is that the dairy industry is not now developing satisfactorily. If you take the growth before the war you find that between 1871 and 1914, whereas the human population increased 60 per cent., the number of cows only increased 40 per cent. Then another set of figures—post-war figures. If you take the number of cows between 1914 and 1924, you find that they only increased by 5 per cent., whereas our imports of condensed and dried milk, and milk foods, increased by 80 per cent.; that is to say, the public is buying and consuming milk products 42 produced outside the British Isles, whereas there ought to be an increased consumption of milk produced in this country. Liquid milk is one of the few agricultural products which cannot be imported, and I am sure there is a large potential market for the farming industry, if only dairying is increased.
§ Then I hope the noble Lord will be able to tell us something about tuberculin tests. The Agriculture Research Council recently went into the whole question. Up to now it has been very difficult for the average farmer to know which of the three separate tuberculin tests was the most reliable. I hope the noble Lord will be able to announce that the Department intend to make known as widely as possible the very interesting results of that Committee of Inquiry. I hope he will be able to tell us whether he thinks it possible to standardise tuberculin. One of the points brought out by that Committee was the difference in strength and quality of the various tuberculins on the market. One other suggestion I should like to make. At the present moment any one who has a licence to sell either certified milk or Grade A milk has to have his herd tested every six months. That is apt to be costly and troublesome. I would like to suggest that when a dairy herd has twice passed the test satisfactorily without any "reactors" being found, it should only be necessary to test the cows in that herd every year instead of every six months, provided that no cows were brought in from outside.
§ I should also like to ask the noble Lord whether he or the Ministry of Health can do anything to help the Milk Publicity Council. The object of that Council is to educate the public as to the value of milk and to try to increase the use of milk. The Council is composed of producers and distributors in the milk trade. It works through medical officers of health, "health weeks," in the schools, through the teachers, by advertising, by literature and by posters. At the present moment the Milk Publicity Council spends something like £25,000 a year, which is given by the milk industry, but only about 10,000 producers subscribe to it. The subscription is one twenty-fourth of a penny per gallon of milk sold. That is a very small amount, and the value of the work of the Council to the dairy industry is enormous. I have noticed that 43 during the last year there has been an increase of 7 per cent. in the quantity of milk brought by the Great Western Railway to London, of 11 per cent. in the quantity brought by the London, Midland, and Scottish Railway to London, of 14 per cent. in the quantity brought by the London and North Eastern Railway. Milk brought to London is milk for consumption as milk, and not for conversion into cheese or butter, and I think that the Milk Publicity Council can claim with justice that this increase is very largely due to its efforts and to its educational campaign during last year. I hope that the noble Lord who replies on behalf of the Government will be able to hold out some hope that the Ministry of Health is prepared to assist this work by a grant in aid, and that his own Department will help to make known the work which is done by this Council.
§ In 1918 a Committee was set up by the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Food to deal with the question of bookkeeping and costing. The noble Lord was a member of that Committee. The first essential in any business is that it should be run on a businesslike basis, and the difficulty in agriculture in the past has been that the majority of farmers had not the faintest idea what it cost them to produce different articles on their farms. I am perfectly aware of the limitations and the difficulties: those are obvious, but they are not insurmountable. The Committee of which I have spoken, I regret to say, was abolished when the anti-waste campaign was started. That was one of the many unwise things that were done as the result of that campaign. I do not know whether the noble Lord will be able to announce to your Lordships to-day that his Department is doing anything to assist farmers in their book-keeping and costing. I understand that the Department either has appointed or is appointing officers to advise in matters of economics; perhaps the noble Lord can give the House some information on that matter.
§ EARL DE LA WARRMy Lords, I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, for bringing forward this very important question to-day, and I think the debate will be of the very greatest value to the producer and the consumer of milk, as well as to the nation as a whole. I do 44 not believe that the community has begun to realise the importance of milk as a really vital human food. The noble Lord has already referred to the figures of the consumption of milk in other countries as compared with our own. Those figures speak for themselves. We cannot begin to tackle this question until we have endeavoured to increase the efficiency of the production and distribution of milk. I leave aside the question of cleanliness, because the noble Lord has dealt with that already in a manner that I could not hope to equal.
I will start with production. Looking at this matter from the point of view of the economist, the cow must be regarded as a machine for the manufacture of milk. Therefore, in so far as we are able to increase the efficiency of the cow, we shall be able to decrease the cost of the manufactured article. Looking at it from that point of view, we can see that the very first, thing we have to do is to increase the application of the Ministry's live stock improvement scheme. The two main bulwarks of any policy in this direction must be a scheme for the compulsory registration of bulls, and another scheme for the extension of the milk-recording movement. In regard to the registration of bulls, I understand the attitude of the Ministry is that while they favour the idea in principle, they feel that agricultural opinion in this country is not yet ripe for such a step. If that is so, I must confess that I find the attitude of the Ministry very puzzling.
What are the facts? The present Prime Minister, during the time of his last Government, appointed an Agricultural Tribunal of Investigation, which reported last year in favour of the introduction of a scheme. The executive of the National Farmers' Union have passed a resolution in its favour, and no less than fifteen county agricultural committees have passed similar resolutions. The bodies last named are of particular importance in this connection, because it is suggested that the necessary powers should be made permissive; that is, that they should be put into force at the will of the county agricultural committee. Therefore, the attitude of the Ministry is not that it is refusing to enforce tyrannical legislation on unwilling local bodies who can best claim to represent the agricultural interests of their localities; but it is refusing powers to 45 local bodies which many of them have stated would be of enormous local value. I submit that the position of the Ministry-is hardly tenable, and I would ask the noble Lord to reconsider seriously the attitude hitherto taken up by his officials on this matter.
Turning now to the question of milk recording, a very great work has already been clone by the milk recording movement, and the Ministry can well look with pride upon all that they have accomplished in the past. But for the last two years, at any rate in the district in which I live, the movement has made extremely little progress. I do not believe that the society to which I belong has gained a single member during that period. In view of the tremendous success that this scheme has had among those who have adopted it, I would urge the Ministry to consider that phenomenon very seriously, and to try to see whether there is anything inherent in the scheme which seriously endangers its future development. Without venturing to dogmatise, I would suggest to the noble Lord a very simple and, I think, very obvious fact. The dairy industry in this country is divided broadly into two sections, those who produce milk simply and solely and have no interest in the selling value of their cattle, and, on the other hand, the breeders, either of pedigree stock or of stock which they wish to grade up to pedigree standard. On the whole, the present scheme is working very well for the breeder, and we find that, not only is the breeder willing to join us, but he has to join us if he is going to keep pace with his competitors.
If I might digress for a moment, even on this side of the scheme things are not quite satisfactory, for lately the Ministry of Agriculture has made it necessary to pay 5s. for every certificate of a cow's yield which has to be taken by the farmer. As a result of this imposition the number of cows registered has decreased enormously. Hitherto the farmer has paid his subscription to the society, and the Ministry of Agriculture has considered it to be worth while to make a grant to that society. Why not continue financing the scheme on a straightforward basis? Why, having made a grant, then proceed to introduce these petty impositions giving with the one hand and taking away with the other? I would ask the noble Lord 46 whether he could not look into this matter, with a view to representing to the Treasury that this scheme is one that is far too important to play with in this way.
However, this is really a digression, for we are, on the whole, agreed that the scheme is working well for the breeder, but is not so working for the commercial o dairy farmer. He, as I have said, is not interested in a scheme that will increase the selling value of his stock. His calves are sent off to market when they are a few days old, and fetch what they will; his cows are sold to the butcher when they are too old to milk, and he does not need a certificate certifying the yield of a certain cow. What he wants is a system of recording that will be of use to him in his commercial work. He wants clerical assistance and advice as to how best to keep his records, and as to the best use to put them to when he has got them. He does not want careful checking. I would like to ask the noble Lord, therefore, whether it is not possible to devise a scheme which could be administered very much more cheaply, and which would, I venture to suggest, be very much more in accord with the needs of the commercial dairyman to-day. I put these suggestions forward very tentatively. The one thing I would urge is this. When he consults his officials at the Ministry let him not only consult those men who are always at the Ministry, but also those very faithful servants of the country who spend all their time amongst the farmers, his live-stock officers. Let him go even further than that. Let him see some of the secretaries of the societies, who are the men who have to approach the farmers and canvass them, and who hear what farmers themselves are saying to-day. I venture to predict that there, at any rate, he will find very considerable agreement with some of the suggestions that I have put forward.
After the efficiency of the machine, we come to the fuel of that machine. Before a ration is fed it has either to be produced on the farm or purchased elsewhere. Here I would like to ask the noble Lord a question. Can he tell us what is the view of the Ministry on the possibilities of the increased development of arable dairying in this country? Perhaps at the same time he could indicate to 47 us the steps that they are taking to encourage research in this direction. I know that the noble Lord himself, with all his great enthusiasm and experience in agricultural matters, is interested in developments along these lines, and perhaps I may express a hope that he may be able to do something practical to impress upon the farmers of this country the possibilities of this system. If he does so, I think he will do considerable good in the direction of cheapening the production of milk. However much a farmer may produce on his farm, he has still to purchase very considerable supplies of cake and meals. I think we are all fairly generally agreed that the only way of cheapening cost in this direction is that the farmers themselves should get together in their own organisations, and do their own purchasing. As individuals they are powerless; as co-operators they can practically dictate their own terms. I am not going to dwell on this subject, as co-operation amongst farmers is a subject which well merits a debate to itself. It must suffice to point out that in so far as purchased foods are used in the production of milk the only way of cheapening cost in that direction is co-operative purchase by the farmers.
I turn now to distribution, and here I promise I will be very brief, and endeavour simply to put before your Lordships the views of my Party on this matter. The difficulty of the community to-day is, I think, as follows. Under the present system of private enterprise the community has to choose between two alternatives, either the inefficiency of competition—which, for instance, sends perhaps three carts to serve a street which one cart could equally well serve—or the tyranny of a trust. I myself retail my own milk, and therefore speak with a certain small experience in this matter. I can speak just as strongly against the alternative of competition as can any consumer. The wastage and the overlapping is appalling. I do not know that there are very many of your Lordships who would wish to see the whole country's supply of milk controlled by rings and monopolists. That is your only alternative under the present system of private enterprise. Surely we know too much of the operations of these bodies to wish to see them very much increased.
The only hope lies, in our opinion, here as in the other social problems, in the 48 direction of Socialism. Economic events, not the theories of faddists, are driving us there. The Conservative Party have had in the last few days to adopt the Socialist conception of social insurance. I quite realise that my noble friends on the Liberal benches were the originators of the idea of insurance, and I do not wish to seem to attempt to take away any of the credit from them, but just as the Conservatives have had to adopt Socialism with regard to insurance so, we are convinced, they will have to adopt Socialism in the distribution of milk. First and foremost in our scheme come the great consumers' co-operative societies. At the present moment they are very nearly the largest individual organisations distributing milk. Socialism is the organisation of the people to control the essentials of life, and the consumers' co-operative societies most certainly come under that category. But where these societies are not operating we hope to see the municipalities undertaking the task, and here we welcome Clause 12 of the Conservative Government's Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Act, which we hope will shortly be in operation. This clause makes the power of the municipalities quite clear on this matter. After all, there is no reason why a public authority should not retail milk, just as it retails gas and water. It is merely an extension of a principle that is almost universally accepted.
My remarks on the production and distribution of milk do not pretend to be comprehensive, but I have tried briefly to cover a few of the main points which seems to be the most urgent. To recapitulate, we say that the first step must be in the direction of increasing the efficiency of the cow by allowing only registered bulls to be used, and of extending the milk recording movement. Secondly, the food of the cow must be reduced in cost by increasing arable dairying in suitable districts and by the purchase of foodstuffs co-operatively. And lastly, we believe that the distribution of milk can only be carried out efficiently on socialistic lines through the consumers' co-operative societies or the municipalities.
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD BLEDISLOE)My Lords, under the cover 49 of the umbrella of the Question of the noble Viscount a considerable number of questions have been addressed to me, and I am quite sure your Lordships will agree that we have just listened to two very interesting and informing speeches. If I disappoint the two noble Lords, and particularly the noble Earl who has just spoken, in not answering very precisely all the questions they have addressed to me, they must forgive me. Although my anticipation was fairly voluminous, it has not been quite extensive enough to cover the large field over which they have ranged. Let me say at once that the Government recognise the extreme importance of the problem underlying the Question, and also the special claim which the noble Viscount himself has to speak on this subject. I have no doubt, as he himself adumbrated at the commencement of his speech, that your Lordships will have a much larger measure of sympathy with him in his opinions on this particular beverage than apparently you had on another subject on which he recently addressed you.
If the Ministry of Agriculture has during recent years appeared to shun taking any rapid or drastic action in relation to the supply of milk, it is for fear lest, in any endeavour to secure pure and disease-free milk for human consumption in this country, they might take steps which would tend to dry up the milk supply altogether, or bring about a milk famine; and a scarcity of milk, your Lordships will agree, would be a far more serious happening than the presence in some of our milk of a certain amount of dirt. The noble Viscount has referred to the relative consumption of milk in this country and certain other countries, notably the United States and Sweden. We have reluctantly to confess that, the consumption of milk here is very much less than it is in the United States, and considerably less than it is in some of the Continental countries. We all deplore the fact. We think that our children suffer in consequence. But it is no good passing drastic laws in relation to this or any other like subject if public opinion is not ripe to endorse them, and the sad fact is that in this country the general public is not sufficiently alive to the importance, particularly in the interests of their children, of pure and disease-free milk, and the farming community themselves are not sufficiently appreciative of the necessity, if they mean 50 to be up-to-date in their methods compared with other countries, of eliminating from their herds unsound cattle, and in practising within their premises the cleanest possible methods of milk production and milk distribution.
The noble Viscount referred to the existing four grades into which milk is at present classified, and he has asked for some fresh classification. We are quite open to consider some new classification of milk, but you are met with this difficulty. Certified milk, which is the highest grade, Grade A (tuberculin tested) milk, which is the second grade, and Grade A, which is the third grade, represent at present no more than a fraction of one per cent. of the milk production of this country, and, if you are going to label milk as A, B, C and D you will find that by far the larger portion of the milk will unfortunately have to be labelled D. It would thus be quite impossible for those who desire any of the other descriptions of milk to obtain it, and, if it were available, to obtain it at prices which many of them could afford to pay. The first step which it seems to us must be taken in all these matters is to educate the general public and the farming community as much as you can with a view to improvement. Both noble Lords who have addressed you this afternoon seemed to be unconscious of what is being done in this direction, but I can assure them that a great deal is being done; in fact, considerably more than was the case two or three years ago.
Not only has there come into existence the National Milk Publicity Council, to which the noble Viscount referred, which is doing quite admirable work, and appears to be spending a considerable amount of money—money which I am sure is well spent—but through the medium of local authorities, county councils, education authorities, municipal bodies, and, indeed, through the schools, a great deal is being done to educate public opinion on these matters. If I remember aright they started their work with an advertisement campaign, which proved somewhat costly and was, in my judgment, a little bit difficult to justify. Of course, it is all very well to press upon the public that they must consume more milk, but what we want to be quite sure of—and in this matter we want to have the medical authorities behind us—is that 51 the milk we are pressing the public to consume is really fit for human consumption. That can only be done by educating the milk producers in the direction of keeping sound cattle, and particularly of observing cleanliness in their cow-sheds.
In this connection many of the county councils are organising clean milk competitions, and in 1924 there were no fewer than twenty held in different counties, and no fewer than thirty are contemplated in the current year. All these competitions are of very high educative value. Information is now being provided by county education authorities on the same subject, and lectures are being organised from time to time for the instruction of children in the elementary and secondary schools as to the importance of milk, and the great importance of its cleanliness and purity. Instructors on this subject are at work to-day in no fewer than forty-eight counties, so that the noble Lord will agree that something material is being done to educate the farmers as well as the public in this matter.
I agree that it may be asked, as the Lord Chief Justice asked in a certain important action in the High Court yesterday, "What is milk?" Well, it is extremely difficult to say what milk is. In certain countries like the United States, it is very much easier to define milk than it is in this country. Is it a liquid obtained from the cow containing bacillus-coli, 100,000 bacteria to the salt-spoon, no bacillus-coli and containing 4½ per cent. fat, as is possible under our existing law? Or is it a liquid similar in appearance with less than 10,000 becteria per salt-spoon, no bacillus-coli and containing 4½ per cent. of butter fat? Obviously there is milk and milk, just as there are eggs and eggs. What we want to try and do is to level up the standard of milk, and be sure that no milk is purveyed to the public which is of low butterfat content and contains impurities especially manure.
It is significant to notice that, whereas the consumption of milk does not seem to have increased during the last few years, the production of milk has very considerably increased. I will not bore your. Lordships by going into figures, but the difficulty to-day is to know how effectively to dispose of surplus milk during the 52 summer months, and the Ministry is doing its best to organise—or shall I say to persuade?—farmers to form organisations for the conversion of surplus milk during the summer months into cheese and other like products. There is also an attempt made to emphasise the high value of whey, which is very largely wasted at present when it comes from the cheese factories, for feeding pigs, for which it is very valuable, or for conversion into lactose or lacto-albumen and other medical preparations which come to-day from foreign countries.
I think the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, referred to the possibility of framing some model milk regulations which various local authorities might be asked to enforce within their areas. That is a matter which is under the serious consideration of both the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Agriculture, but we are doubtful whether the time is ripe to take any such course. What we very much fear is that a very large number of small retailers would be driven out of business and, though such a course might in the long run be justified if on the other side there was any genuine public benefit to be obtained, we are somewhat doubtful on this point at the moment, until the standard of milk has been levelled up and good, pure milk is obtainable in larger quantities than it is to-day. On the subject of milk bottling we feel that compulsory bottling in this country is at present undesirable, for the reason that I have given—namely, that it would put out of business a considerable number of small people, without the quality of the milk being necessarily very much, if at all, better than that of the milk sold in the same areas to-day.
The noble Lord opposite referred to development of milk recording. Speaking for the Ministry, I can only say that the development of milk recording has far exceeded our anticipations of a few years ago. It is spreading all over the country, and the advantages to the farmer himself are becoming known to him, because he is enabled thereby to eliminate cattle which are not paying for their keep, and is able to produce his milk from his herd at a lower cost. It has been found that greater efficiency can be secured by the elimination of some of these very small milk recording societies, and so there are fewer of these societies than there were a few years ago, but 53 there are very many more milk-recorded cattle and milk-recording farmers. The noble Lord opposite referred to scrub bulls. The question of how best to deal with scrub bulls is receiving the attention of the Minister, and he, like myself, is very anxious to see some action taken in the matter. It is undoubtedly very desirable to eliminate such bulls, which are doing a considerable amount of harm to the cattle of this country in perpetuating undesirable stock, but it is very questionable whether sufficient agricultural support can yet be obtained for any compulsory measure for eliminating scrub bulls. It is "up to" the agricultural community to help us in this matter, and those organisations who feel very strongly upon the subject would do well to pass resolutions or make it clear to us what their opinion is, because it is quite clear in a matter like this that it would be undesirable to act unless we had a very large weight of agricultural opinion behind us.
The noble Lord opposite also referred to the lack of support that is given to the ordinary commercial farmers in the matter of milk recording, and other like matters. I do not quite know what is the suggestion in the way of improving what is being done at the present time, but I can assure him a great deal is being done. The county agricultural organisers are doing admirable work to-day in advising the smaller dairy farmers as to the best methods of feeding their cattle with a view to milk production and also as to the best means of ensuring the production of clean milk. I know that it is dangerous to select any particular organiser for mention by name, but I should like to say that very admirable work is being done in this direction in Wiltshire. Perhaps I may be allowed to draw your Lordships' attention to sonic of the results of the work for which the gentleman whom I have in mind is responsible. He is encouraging a certain scheme of rationing cattle in a very large number of herds which are now under his supervision. These herds are both large and small, and the result of the scheme has been to increase the milk yield to the extent of anything from 30 per cent. to 60 per cent., with no appreciable additional expenditure on foodstuffs.
If your Lordships are interested in this subject I should like to have the opportunity of explaining to you in outline 54 the main features of this system of rationing. It certainly makes it clear, as numerous farmers in Wiltshire will testify, that by the application of up-to-date science, which, after all, is very largely organised common sense, it is possible to produce milk a great deal more cheaply than it is produced to-day without any appreciable increase in the expenditure on foodstuffs. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Banbury must be very proud of the enlightened attitude of his county in this matter.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAMI hope that you will not register my bulls.
§ LORD BLEDISLOEI might also mention that it is quite a mistake to suppose, as many people do suppose to-day, that perfectly pure milk cannot be produced in the ordinary farmer's cow-houses. I know that there is a tendency to say that you must entirely alter the fittings and equipment of cow-houses in order to produce clean milk, that you must provide more light and ventilation, that you must shorten the standings of the cows—no doubt these things are very desirable—and that you must install washstands and roller towels, and the like, in your cow-houses. All this is very desirable but, at the same time, it can be demonstrated, as, indeed, it is demonstrated at the National Dairy Research Station at Reading, that perfectly pure and wholesome milk can be produced, so long as the human factor performs its part, in the ordinary farmer's cow-house, and, where it is not being produced, this is more due to human defects than to defects in the building or its equipment.
The noble Lords who have spoken must remind me if I omit certain of the matters to which they have referred. Reference has been made to the methods of applying the tuberculin test. Upon that point I am not in a position to say anything to-day. The Report of the Medical Research Council on this matter, which is intensely interesting, has been published, and is available in the Stationery Office for any noble Lords who like to study it. A large number of veterinary surgeons throughout the country—and the matter rests mainly with them—are themselves making experiments with the intra-dermal test which is so strongly recommended in this Report. No doubt, if it is as efficacious as the Report suggests, its 55 efficacy will be recognised throughout the country. As regards the standardisation of tuberculin, that again is a matter which is being considered, and experiments are being made by leading veterinary surgeons throughout the country. I am sure that we all agree that it is desirable to standardise tuberculin so far as is possible.
The noble Earl opposite spoke of the socialisation of industry, and exemplified its possibilities by referring to the distribution of milk. We on this side of the House consider that a solution, and a more effective solution, can be found for these problems without turning to that which the Labour Party describe as the socialisation of industry. But we do recognise that it is uneconomic for milk to be distributed in the way in which it is distributed to-day in many large cities where you have, as the noble Earl said, several milk carts delivering milk in the same street. Obviously there is no economy in distribution there, but this is a matter for organisation among distributors, in the same way as the purchase of foodstuffs, to which he referred, and the sale on satisfactory terms of milk products by farmers are matters for organisation between the producers. I should like to make it plain to the noble Earl that, in my opinion, this must be a matter for voluntary action and not for compulsion on the part of the Government. The whole essence of agricultural cooperation, as demonstrated throughout the world, is that it must be voluntary. You cannot force people to co-operate if they will not co-operate. The advantages of co-operation are being recognised increasingly every year, and I have no doubt that, with such encouragement and assistance as the Government can give, they will be more and more recognised in this country as time goes on. I do not know whether I have covered the whole of the points brought forward by the two noble Lords in their speeches, but I have done my best to answer their questions.
§ LORD PARMOORMy Lords, I should like to say only one word of a practical kind, since the views of my noble friends on this side of the House have already been represented. I have been very closely associated with a dairy farm in the North of England which, for the 56 purpose of experiment, was placed under the control of the University of Leeds. That dairy farm has been successful in two ways. In the first place it has, I think, solved the question of whether it is more economical to produce food for dairy cows on the farm or to buy it outside. The farm in question has been divided into two parts in order that the experiment may be tried under conditions that are exactly similar. But more important still, I think, is the question of clean milk. This farm obtained the prize in Yorkshire for clean milk during last year. No doubt it had admirable buildings, but I doubt whether any one really understood, until the experiment was made, what was the real difficulty in obtaining clean milk—or rather, since there is no such thing as absolutely clean milk, in obtaining relatively pure milk. The custom there had been to milk the cows by electrical machinery, but it was found to be quite impossible to obtain clean milk under those conditions, however carefully the machinery was cleaned. Clean milk could be obtained only by hand milking. That was a very important discovery and, although the change was costly, it was quite compensated for by the fact that clean milk was produced in one instance where there had been an entire failure to produce it in the other. The farm, of course, comes under what are called the Grade A Regulations.
I hope that the noble Lord opposite who represents the Ministry of Agriculture will consider very carefully the question of tuberculin tests. It often happens that, possibly three or four times, the tuberculin test may operate to show absence of tuberculosis and then, on the fifth occasion, you get a different reaction. That is very unsatisfactory, and particularly unsatisfactory when it is a case of the sale of pedigree stock abroad from a well-known dairy stock in this country. That, to my knowledge, has happened more than once, with very unfortunate results, and I hope the noble Lord will consider the suggestions made by the noble Earl on this side, and also, I think by Lord Astor, that, so far as tuberculin tests are concerned, further research should be made and further information obtained. My purpose in rising was merely to give the illustration of a farm with which I am personally associated, in which clean milk has been obtained 57 so as to gain the Yorkshire prize, and which, I think, offers conditions favourable to the maximum result, because the records on that farm for various cows have been kept now for thirty years, and the stock has always been selected in relation to those milk records.
§ LORD BLEDISLOEWith the leave of the House I should like to answer the noble Lord who has just spoken, and also reply to two questions which I failed to remember just now. We all admit that tuberculin tests are not in every case reliable, but it is rather a remarkable fact that in 95 per cent, of the cases the subcutaneous injection of tuberculin has been found to give a correct idea of the condition of the cow. The last word, however, has not been heard on the subject. The noble Lord can be well assured that the matter is under very careful consideration by the Ministry of Agriculture, and it is hoped that some method will shortly be found which will be trustworthy not in 95, but in 100 per cent. of the cases. Of course, it is only fair to remind the noble Lord opposite that it depends upon the condition of the cow at the time of injection whether the temperature does rise.
I forgot to refer to the question of castings, and Lord Astor asked me to say something about it. In each of the twelve provinces into which England and Wales has been divided for agricultural educational purposes, there will be a staff attached to the provincial college, which is costing a number of selected farms in the area. Approximately 300 farms are at present being costed, and, as the scheme further develops, no doubt this number will increase considerably. The costings scheme is centralised at the Institute for Research into Agricultural Economics at Oxford, where all the costings results are sent by the various colleges, and they are thus available for the costings staff at any college which may wish to carry out a full investigation of one particular aspect of farming, such as, for example, dairying. The other matter to which I did not refer was the 5s. charge for the certificate as to the yield of milk in recorded cases. The noble Lord opposite may be interested to hear that although, as he says, the 5s. charge has discouraged a large number of people from applying for certificates, there has been substituted by the Ministry a form of declaration which is made by the owner 58 of a cow and counter-signed by the secretary of the milk recording society, which to all intents and purposes is of the same value, and for which nothing whatever is paid.