Lords Sitting of 31 July 1925

Preamble
The House met at twelve of the clock, THE LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills, and Measure passed according to the provisions of Section four of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act. 1919, received the Royal Assent:—

Merchant Shipping (International Labour Conventions).

Former Enemy Aliens (Disabilities Removal).

Guardianship of Infants.

Statutory Gas Companies (Electricity Supply Powers).

Dramatic and Musical Performers Protection.

Fire Brigade Pensions.

Improvement of Land Act (1899) Amendment.

Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation).

Summary Jurisdiction (Separation and Maintenance).

Theatrical Employers Registration.

Advertisements Regulation.

Mental Deficiency (Amendment).

Ministers of Religion (Removal of Disqualifications).

Education (Scotland) Superannuation.

Isle of Man (Customs).

Board of Education Scheme (Winchester, Christ's Hospital School Foundation) Confirmation.

Wemyss and District Water Order Confirmation.

Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation.

Land Drainage (Black Sluice) Provisional Order.

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1).

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2).

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Tramways Provisional Orders.

Kirkcudbright Burgh Order Confirmation.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 3).

Lanarkshire County Council Order Confirmation.

London and North Eastern Railway Order Confirmation.

Leicester Fire Brigade Provisional Order.

Salford Provisional Order.

Land Drainage (Ouse) Provisional Order.

St. Mildred's Churchyard.

St. Mary's Church, Birmingham, and General Hospital

Standard Life Assurance Company.

Rochdale Corporation.

London County Council (Tramways and Improvements).

Royal Exchange Assurance.

South Metropolitan Gas.

French Protestant Episcopal Church of the Savoy.

Bolton Corporation.

Oakengates Urban District Council. Southern Railway.

London, Midland and Scottish Railway (New Capital).

London and North Eastern Railway (General Powers).

Great Yarmouth Haven Bridge.

Southampton Corporation.

Bedwellty Urban District Council.

Newport Corporation.

Fylde Water Board.

Nottinghamshire County Council (Gunthorpe Bridge).

Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board.

London County Council (Money).

Leeds Corporation.

Poole Harbour.

London Electricity Supply (No. 1).

London Electricity Supply (No. 2).

Bishopric of Leicester Measure [1925].

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

VICTORIA INFIRMARY OF GLASGOW ACT, 1888 (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, relating to the Victoria Infirmary of Glasgow, and to move that it lei now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act. deemed to have been read 2a and reported front the Committee.

BARROW-IN-FURNESS CORPORATION BILL.
Order of the Day read for further proceedings after Third Reading.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I am glad to say the matter is now in order, and I suggest that your Lordships should make the Amendment to which I referred yesterday.
On Question, Amendment made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

IRVINE BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, Section 7, Bill deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
GREENWICH HOSPITAL (DISUSED BURIAL GROUND) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

ROADS IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Planting of trees and laying out of grass margins in highways.
1.—(1) The Minister of Transport (hereinafter referred to as the Minister) and any county council or other highway authority shall have power to cause trees or shrubs to be planted and grass margins to be laid out in any highway maintainable by him or them respectively; and to erect and maintain guards or fences and otherwise to do anything expedient for the maintenance or protection of such trees, shrubs and grass margins.
(3) The powers conferred by this section hall not be exercised by the Minister, or any county council or other highway authority except in a highway vested in him or them respectively, or upon land so vested which forma part of a highway.
(6) Section seven of the Telegraph Act, 1978, shall apply to any work done in exercise of the powers conferred by this section as if the work were done in the execution of an undertaking authorised by a special Act of Parliament, and as if any county council or highway authority carrying out the work were the undertakers.
Loan BANBURY or SOUTHAM Loan BANBURY or SOUTHAM moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "maintainable by him or them respectively," and to insert "vested in him or them respectively or upon land so vested which forms part of a highway." The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have a consequential Amendment to leave out subsection (3). This is really only a drafting Amendment designed to make the Bill intelligible to the ordinary observer. As the Bill stands, subsection (1) of Clause 1 empowers the Minister of Transport and any county council or other highway authority to cause trees or shrubs to be planted, and grass margins to be laid out in any highway maintainable by him or them respectively, and to erect and maintain guards or fences. That right as it stands would permit the Transport Minister and the county council or other highway authority to plant trees and do various things on land which does not belong to them. That question was raised in Committee and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, pointed out that subsection (3) cancelled that and limited the powers of the Ministry of Transport and the county council to land which was
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vested in them; that is to say, to these new roads which have been made during the last few years. It is rather absurd to grant certain powers in one subsection, powers which cannot be exercised or which probably could not be exercised, and take away those powers in another subsection. It would be much simpler if the clause was amended as I suggest. It does not alter the meaning in any way, but it puts it in a more intelligible form and in such a way that any one who reads it can understand what is meant.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, lines 10 and 11, leave out ("maintainable by him or them respectively") and insert ("vested in him or them respectively or upon land so vested which forms part of a highway").—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, this Amendment has been moved by the noble Lord with the laudable desire of making the Bill simpler and more intelligible and we shall all agree that his object is most admirable. I should like to point out to him that the Bill, as drafted, proceeds upon a simple principle, and that is to lay down in subsection (1) what are the powers and then to state the limitations on those powers in subsection (3). It is not quite accurate to say that subsection (3) takes away the powers given in subsection (1).
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I should have said some of them.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I think that would be more accurate. The noble Lord, however, knows that there are a good many wiles and stratagems in the way of the draftsmen and he has told us that the change he proposes to make does not alter the effect of the Bill. I am afraid he has not reckoned with the complexity of the law in this country with regard to highways and he has forgotten Scotland altogether. What I understand would happen is this. As regards this country there are cases where the roads are vested in one authority and maintainable by another. Under his proposal the authority that had to maintain the roads would not be able to plant trees, but authority which would he able to plant the trees is the one which is not responsible for the maintenance of the roads.

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That would produce rather an undesirable complexity in the maintenance of these roads.
The second point is that the law in Scotland, as so very often happens, is not the same as the law in England—in fact, it is quite different as regards highways—and it would be very difficult, unless the Bill is left as it is drafted, to apply these particular changes to the peculiar case of Scotland. It would introduce very great complexity. It would not only be necessary to alter the definition clause, but I also understand that if the clause is drafted as suggested it would be very difficult to make its application to Scotland otherwise than very confusing and rather unintelligible. I hope the noble Lord does not lay so much stress on the Amendment as to press it further and I trust that the view he takes of the intelligence of the magistrates, that they only read one section and not another, is not entirely accurate.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I confess that I am not conversant with the law in Scotland. It is a curious law, and it is always cropping up at inopportune times to show that it is different to the law of England. My idea was not merely to consult the convenience of magistrates, but to let the ordinary person who wants to know what is going to be clone see it at a glance and without finding it necessary to have recourse to anyone learned in the law, which he would have to do if the clause remains as it is. But after the statement of the noble Viscount I will not press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT PEEL VISCOUNT PEEL moved to leave out subsection (6) and insert
"(6) For the purposes of section seven of the Telegraph Act, 1878, any work done in exercise of the powers conferred by this section shall be deemed to be work done in the execution of an undertaking authorised by an Act of Parliament, and any county council or highway authority carrying out the work shall be deemed to be the undertakers."
The noble Viscount said: This is purely a drafting Amendment in order to secure the Postmaster-General
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 20, leave out subsection (6) and insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2:
Amendment of s. 8 of 9 Edw. 7. c 47.
2. For the purposes of Part ll, of the Development and Road improvement Funds Act, 1900, the expression "improvement of roads" shall, in addition to the matters specified in subsection (5) of section eight of that Act, include the planting, laying out, maintenance and protection of trees, shrubs and grass margins in and beside roads, the placing on or near roads of notices, milestones and sign posts, and the freeing of roads from tolls, and the prescription of building lines along roads in anticipation of the widening thereof.
VISCOUNT PEEL: The first Amendment in my name is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line leave out the second ("and").—(Viscount of Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT PEEL VISCOUNT PEEL moved to leave out the last six words of the clause: "in anticipation of the widening thereof". The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is not quite a drafting Amendment. It leaves out the words which restrict the prescription of building lines to cases where road widening is definitely anticipated. There is no provision confining the prescription of building lines in the governing clause and this really only brings this clause into conformity with Clause 5.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 35, leave out from ("roads") to end of the clause.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4 [Restrictions as to fences at dangerous corners]:
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, all the Amendments in my name to this clause are of a drafting nature. They only secure uniformity of language between this clause and Clause 5 or leave out certain provisions in regard to service of notice and definition of terms in order that they may be inserted later in the Bill.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 14, leave out from (''serve") to ("to") in line 16 and insert ("a notice—
"(a) upon the owner or occupier of the land directing him")
Page 3, line 21, leave out ("restraining the owner and occupier of the land") and insert ("upon every owner, occupier and lessee of the land restraining them")
Page 4, lines 1 to 4, leave out paragraph (iv)
Page 4, line 42, leave out ("under this Act")
Page 5, lines 4 and 5, leave out ("against this Act")
Page 5, line 15, leave out from ("that") to ("imposed") in line 17, and insert ("his property is injuriously affected by restrictions")
Page 5, line 22, leave out from the second ("a") to ("required") in line 24, and insert ("county council or other highway authority in exercise of their powers under this section shall, whether or not land is")
Page 5, line 30 to page 6, line 18, leave out subsections (9), (10) and (11).—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 5:
Power to prescribe building line.
5.—(1) A county council or other highway authority (hereinafter in this section referred to, where the context so admits, as "the authority") may by order prescribe, in respect of any road (being a public highway) which is for the time being maintainable by them, a building line along each or either side of the whole or any part of such road, and, subject to the provisions of paragraph (a) of subsection (10) of this section, it shall not thenceforth be lawful, without the written consent of the authority (which consent, if given, may be subject to such conditions as the authority shall think fit), to erect, or permit to be erected, any structure whatsoever in front of such building line, or to alter, or permit to be altered, any structure existing at the date of the order in such manner that any part thereof projects in front of such building line, or to make, or permit to be made, any permanent excavation in front of such building line:
Provided that the consent of the Minister shall be obtained before any such building line is prescribed as aforesaid in respect of any road, or part thereof, for the time being classified by the Minister for the purpose of advances from the Road Fund.
(2) One month at least before the date of the order the authority shall—

(a) cause to be prepared, signed by their surveyor, and deposited with their clerk, a plan of the proposed building line, which shall be open at all reasonable times to the inspection of the public without change:

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(b) give notice in writing of the deposit of the said plan to every owner or lessee interested whose name and address they can ascertain; and

(c) give public notice by advertisement. in two newspapers circulating in the district in which the road affected is situate, that the said plan has been so deposited.

(3) Within one month after the date of the order the authority shall—

(a) cause to be prepared, signed by their surveyor and deposited with their clerk, a plan of the said building line, which shall be open at all reasonable times for the inspection of the public without charge; and

(b) give notice in writing to every owner or lessee interested whose name and address they can ascertain that a building line has been so prescribed and a plan thereof so deposited.

(4) If the road in respect of which a building line is proposed to be prescribed in accordance with the provisions of this section, is either a main road maintained and repaired pursuant to subsection (2) of section eleven of the Local Government Act, 1888, or a road, other than a main road, classified by the Minister as aforesaid. the authority shall, before prescribing a building line as aforesaid, send a notification of their proposals to the council of the county in which the road is situate, who shall submit their observations thereon, if any, to the authority within three months from the date of such notification, and the authority shall consider such observations, if any, before making any order under this section.
(5) If the road in respect of which a building line is proposed to be prescribed in accordance with the provisions of this section is a main road maintained and repaired by a county council, the authority shall, before prescribing a building line as aforesaid, send a notification of their proposals to the local authority of the district in which such mad is situate, who shall submit their observations thereon, if any, to the authority within one month from the date of such notification, and the authority shall consider such observations, if any, before making any order under this section.
(6) The authority may, subject to the provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection (10) of this section, at any time after the date of the order and on giving three months' notice in writing to the owner or lessee of any structure which, or any part of which, was in front of the said building line at the date of the order, require that such structure shall be demolished or set back or altered in such manner that no part thereof shall project in front of the said building line.
(7) Any person upon whom a notice is served under subsection (3) of this section who proves that the value of his interest in any land has been reduced by the prescription of a building line, and any person upon whom a notice is served under subsection (6) of this section who proves that he has sustained loss

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or damage by the demolition, setting back or alteration of any structure, shall be entitled to recover from the authority compensation for such reduction in value or for such demolition, setting back or alteration, as the case may be, and the amount of such compensation shall, in default of agreement, be determined by arbitration under the provisions of the Arbitration Act, 1889:
Provided that—

(i) in estimating the amount of such compensation, there shall be taken into account as a set off the benefits accruing by reason of any road widening or improvement made or about to be made by the authority to the person to whom such compensation is payable;

(ii) no compensation whatsoever shall be payable in respect of any structure the erection or alteration of which in advance of the proposed building line was first commenced after the service of the notice specified in paragraph (b) of subsection (2) of this section; and

(iii) no compensation whatsoever shall be payable to any person in respect of a reduction in the value of his interest in any land as aforesaid, except in pursuance of a claim made to the authority within six months after the date of the order.

(8) Where by any scheme confirmed under the Town Planning Acts, 1909 to 1923, any building line it prescribed by the local authority making such scheme and such building line is nearer to the centre line of the road than a building line prescribed in accordance with the provisions of this section, the local authority shall pay to the authority (if not the local authority) such proportion of any compensation paid by the authority under subsection (7) of this section as may be agreed upon between the authority and the local authority or, in default of agreement, as shall be determined by arbitration under the Arbitration Act, 1889.
(9) Copies of arty plan prepared, signed and deposited in accordance with the provisions of subsection (3) of this section shall, when certified by the clerk of the authority to be true, be received in all courts of justice and elsewhere as primâ facie evidence of the contents of such plan so far as it relates to a building line prescribed in accordance with this section, and a copy (certified as aforesaid) of so much of ally such plan as relates to the district of any local authority shall, on the application of that local authority or of the council of the county in which the road affected is situate, as the case may be, be delivered to such local authority or county council, and copies of or extracts from such plan shall also be delivered to the owner, lessee or occupier of any property in the district applying for the same, on payment of a reasonable fee to be determined by the authority, and all fees so received shall be
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carried to the credit of the fund out of which the highway expenditure of the authority is payable.
(10) Nothing in this section shall be deemed—

(a) to prevent the erection in front of a building line prescribed in accordance with this section of any boundary wall or fence or the alteration of any existing boundary wall or fence; or

(b) to require the demolition, setting back, or alteration of any boundary wall or fence existing in front of such building line at the date of the order.

(11) The provisions of this section shall not apply to any building (not being a dwelling-house) or lands belonging to a railway company and held by them for the purposes of any railway authorised by Act of Parliament or by an order having the force of an Act or belonging to the owners, trustees or conservators acting under powers conferred upon them by Parliament of any canal, inland navigation, dock or harbour, and held by them for the purposes of the canal, inland navigation, dock or harbour.
(12) Every notice for the purpose of this section may be served either by delivering it or leaving it at the usual or last known place of abode of the person on whom it is to be served, or by sending it by post as a registered letter addressed to that person at his usual or last known place of abode, or by delivering it to some person on the premises, or, if there is no person on the premises, by affixing it on some conspicuous part of the premises, and any such notice or document may be addressed by the description of the "owner" or the "occupier" of the premises (naming them) without further name or description.
(13) Any person offending against any of the provisions of this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds, and a further penalty not exceeding five pounds for every day during which the offence continues.
(14) Nothing in this section shall derogate from the powers of the London County Council under the London Building Acts, 1894 to 1923, and in the administrative county of London the London County Council shall be the authority for the purposes of this section.
VISCOUNT PEEL VISCOUNT PEEL moved to leave out Clause 5, and insert the following new clause:—
Power to prescribe building lines.
5.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section a county council or other highway authority may by resolution prescribe in relation to either side of any part of a highway maintainable by them a frontage line for building (in this section referred to as "a building line"):
Provided that—

(a) the Minister may by order direct that a building line shall not be prescribed under this section in relation to any class of road classified by him under subsection (2) of section seventeen of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, until notification of the building line proposed has been sent to him and his observations with respect thereto have been considered; and

(b) before a building line is prescribed under this section—

(i) affecting any main road maintainable by an urban authority by virtue of the provisions of subsection (2) of section eleven of the Local Government Act, 1885, notification of the building line proposed to be prescribed shall be sent to the council of any county in which any land proposed to be affected is situated; or

(ii) by any county council, notification of the building line proposed to be prescribed shall be sent to the local authority for every district in which any land proposed to be affected is situated, and to every authority fur the time being authorised to make a scheme under the Town Planning Act, 1925, or under any enactment repealed by that Act, in respect of any such district,

and any observations by an authority to whom notification has been sent as aforesaid, which are made within three months after the receipt of the notification shall be considered by the authority proposing to prescribe the building line.
(2) Any building line proposed to be prescribed and every building line prescribed under this section shall he distinctly marked and shown on plans to be signed by, and deposited with, the clerk of the authority prescribing the building line, and the said plans shall be at all reasonable times thereafter open for the inspection of the public without charge; and any county council or other highway authority prescribing a building line under this section—

(a) before the building line is prescribed shall give notice in writing of the proposal to prescribe the building line and of the times and place at which the plans aforesaid can be inspected, by serving a notice in writing upon every owner, occupier and lessee of land proposed to be affected, and shall consider any objection to the proposal made within six weeks after the service of the notice;

(b) within six weeks after the building line has been prescribed, shall cause the plan showing the
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building line to be sealed and authenticated by the signature of their clerk, and shall serve upon every owner, occupier and lessee of land affected a notice in writing of the prescription of the building line and of the times and place at which the said plan can be inspected.

(3) Where a building line prescribed under this section is in force it shall not be lawful, except with the consent of the authority by whom the building line was prescribed, to erect or make nearer to the middle of the highway than the building line, any new building, other than a boundary wall or fence, or any permanent excavation below the level of the highway:
Provided that the consent of a county council or other highway authority for the purposes of this subsection may be given subject to such conditions as the authority think fit to impose, and any conditions so imposed shall be binding upon any successor in title to the owner, occupier or lessee of any land to which they relate.
(4) If any person erects or makes, or permits to be erected or made, any new building, or permanent excavation in contravention of the provisions of this section he shall without prejudice to any other proceedings which may be taken against him, be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a penalty not exceeding five pounds, and any person so convicted shall, within such time as the court may allow, remove any building erected, or fill in any excavation made in contravention of this section, and if he fails to do so he shall be deemed to commit, a continuing offence, and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings for each day upon which such failure continues.
(5) Any person who proves that his property is injuriously affected by the prescription of a building line under this section shall, if he makes a claim within six months after the prescription thereof, or in the case of an owner, occupier or lessee, within six months after the service upon him of a notice of the prescription thereof, be entitled to recover from the county council or other highway authority by whom the building line was prescribed, compensation for the injury sustained, and any question whether compensation is payable under this section, or as to the amount of any compensation so payable, shall in default of agreement be determined by an official arbitrator appointed under the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919:
Provided that in determining any such question as aforesaid—

(a) no compensation shall be payable to any person in respect of anything done by him or on his behalf after the date of the service upon him of a notice of the proposal to prescribe a building line, except in respect of anything done in pursuance of a contract made, or

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for the purpose of finishing a building begun, before that date; and

(b) there shall be taken into account any benefit accruing to the person to whom compensation is payable, by reason of any improvement made or about to be made to the highway.

(6) In the administrative County of London the powers conferred by this section shall not be exercised except by the London County Council, and may be exercised by that council in relation to any highway, whether maintainable by them, by the Common Council of the City of London, or by a metropolitan borough council; and all expenses of the London County Council incurred under this section, so far as not defrayed out of any advance made by the Minister, shall be defrayed as expenses for general county purposes:
Provided that the Common Council of the City of London and any metropolitan borough council may, as part of the general expenses of the council, pay or contribute towards the payment of any expenses incurred by the London County Council wunder this section.
(7) The powers conferred by this section shall be in addition to, and not in derogation of, any powers conferred by any other Act:
Provided that, a county council or other highway authority shall not, except with the consent of the Minister of Health and subject to any conditions imposed by him, exercise the powers conferred by this section with respect to any land to which a resolution having effect under section two of the Town Planning Act, 1925, or under any corresponding enactment repealed by that Act, extends.
(8) Nothing in this section shall affect—

(a) any right of statutory undertakers for gas, water, electricity, tramways, or light railways to make any excavation for the purpose of laying altering, repairing, or renewing any main, pipe, electric line, duct, or other apparatus; or

(b) any land belonging to a railway company or to the owners, trustees, or conservators acting under powers conferred by Parliament, of any canal, inland navigation, dock, or harbour where the land is held by them for the purposes of their railway, canal, inland navigation, dock, or harbour, except in so far as they may consent thereto; or

(c)any land specifically authorised by Parliament to be used by any statutory undertakers for the manufacture or storage of gas the generating of electricity, or as a pumping station or reservoir for water, except in so far as the undertakers may consent thereto:

Provided that any consent required for the purposes of this subsection shall not unreasonably withheld, and any question
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whether or not consent so required is unreasonably withheld shall be determined by the Minister after consultation with the Minister of Health"
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, This is a re-drafting of the clause which was moved by Lord Strachie, and I think he is quite satisfied with it. Subject to certain minor alterations the new clause embodies the clause now in the Bill and the Amendments which were put down by Lord Strachie and Lord Stuart of Wortley. There is only one exception, and that is that the unfettered power of the authority to require, without any appeal to any one, the demolition of any part of any existing building which projects in front of the building line finds no place in the new clause. It is really quite unnecessary because it could not alter the amounts of compensation payable supposing, the road is to be widened. I therefore move this clause in fulfilment of the promise that I made. I told the noble Lord, I think, in accepting his clause, that it would be necessary to introduce certain changes in it, and I understand that the effort to adapt the noble Lord's clause to this Bill has been a considerable one and has caused the draftsmen and the Department a good deal of anxious thought.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 33, leave out Clause 5 and insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Peel.)
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, may I just say on behalf of the County Councils' Association that we are perfectly satisfied with the alterations that have been made? I should like also to express my thanks and those of the County Councils' Association to the noble Viscount for having met me so reasonably. I would also express my thanks to the noble Marquess the Leader of the House, who, I understand, has also interested the Ministry of Health in this question.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, this clause covers four pages of the Marshalled List of Amendments. I dare say that it is all right, but I must confess that I do not understand it. It apparently deals with the power to prescribe building lines. I seem to remember that only yesterday we passed a Bill called the Public Health Bill through one of its stages and this Bill also gave power to prescribe building lines. I hope that this

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clause does not conflict with the power that we gave yesterday, but I must leave it entirely in the hands of my noble friend, because I do not in the least know what it all means.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT PEEL VISCOUNT PEEL moved, after Clause 6, to insert the following new Clause:
"Joint exercise of powers.
7. The powers conferred by this Act upon the Minister, or any county council or other highway authority may, by agreement between any of them respectively, be exercised jointly, and any such agreement may provide for the apportionment of any expenses incurred thereunder."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is really a drafting Amendment. It makes applicable both to Clause 5 and Clause 1 the power already contained in Clause 4 for authorities to agree to the joint exercise of powers in the apportionment of expenses. It is purely an enabling provision.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 25, at end insert the said new clause.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7 [Expenses]:
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, I have a drafting Amendment to this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 30, after ("shall") insert ("except as otherwise in this Act expressly provided").—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8 [Determination of Questions]:
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, my Amendments to this clause also are drafting, and are due to the special provision of Clause 5 as to the ascertainment of compensation.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 36, leave out ("under this Act")
Page 11, line 37, leave out from ("under") to ("or") in line 38, and insert ("any of the provisions of this Act except section five thereof")
Page 11, line 40, after ("under") insert ("section four of")
Page 11, Page 12, line 5, after ("under") insert ("section four of")
Page 11, line 15, after ("under") insert ("section four of")—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 9:
Interpretation, short title, and extent.
9.—(1) In this Act the expression "roads" includes bridges, viaducts, subways, road-ferries and footways, and the expressions "common," "open space," and "allotment" have the meanings respectively assigned to them by the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1909.
(2) In the application of this Act to Scotland—

(a)the expression "highway authority" shall mean a county council or a district committee in a county divided into districts or a town council charged with the management and maintenance of the highways in the burgh;

(b) the expression "county court" shall mean sheriff's court;

(c) subsection (3) of section one shall not apply as regards any highway authority, but the powers conferred by that section shall not be exercised by any county council, district committee, or town council in any land forming part of a highway unless the county council, district committee, or the town council of the county, district, or burgh in which such highway is situated is charged with the management and maintenance thereof;

(d) paragraph (ii) of the proviso to section four shall not apply, but a notice restraining the erection of any building on land situated within a burgh the town council of which is not charged with the management and maintenance of the highways therein shall not be served without the consent of such town council.

(3) This Act may be cited as the Roads Improvement Act, 1925.
(4) This Act shall not extend to Northern Ireland.
VISCOUNT PEEL VISCOUNT PEEL moved to leave out Clause 9 and insert the following new clauses:—
Provisions as to notices.
10. Subject as hereinafter provided, every notice which may be served under this Act may be served either by delivering it or leaving it at the usual or last known place of abode of the person on whom it is to be served, or by sending it by post as a registered letter addressed to him at his usual or last known place of abode, or if that cannot be found, by fixing it on some conspicuous part of the land; and any such notice or document may be addressed, as the case may require, to the "owner," "occupier," or "lessee" of the land (describing it) without further name or description:
Provided that a notice requiring the owner or occupier of land to alter the height or character of any wall, fence or hedge thereon shall be served personally upon him or his agent, or upon some person having charge of his affairs, and if the notice is served upon the occupier a copy thereof shall be served upon the owner, or if it is served upon the owner a copy thereof shall be served upon the occupier of the land.
Interpretation.
11. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say—
"Building" includes any erection of whatsoever material and in whatsoever manner constructed, and any part of ft building;
"common, open space and Allotment" have the meanings respectively assigned to them by the Development and Road Improvement Funds Act, 1905;
"Fence" includes any hoarding or paling;
"Hedge" includes any tree or shrub, whether forming part of a hedge or not;
"Local authority for the district" means as respects land within the administrative County of London, the Common Council of the City of London, or a metropolitan borough council, as the case may require, and as respects any other land, the district council:
"Now building" includes any addition to an existing building;
"Owner" has the same meaning as in The Public Health Acts, 1875 to 1907;
"Road" includes any bridge, viaduct, subway, road, Ferry and footway;
"Wall" includes any partition of whatsoever material constructed, and any bank.
Application to Scotland.
12. In the application of this Act to Scotland—

(a) a reference to the Scottish Board of Health shall be substituted for any reference to the Minister of Health, and a reference to the Town Planning (Scotland) Act, 1925, shall be substituted for any reference to the Town Planning Act, 1925;

(b) The expression "highway authority" shall mean a county council or a district committee in a county divided into districts, or a town council charged with the management and maintenance of the highways in the burgh;

(c) The expression "county court" shall mean sheriff court;

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(d) Subsection (3) of section one shall not apply as regards any highway authority, but the powers conferred by that section shall not be exercised by arty county council, district committee, or town council in any highway or in any land forming part thereof unless the county council, district committee, or the town council of the county, district or burgh in which such highway is situated is charged with the management and maintenance thereof;

(e) Paragraph (ii) of the proviso to subsection (1) of section four, and paragraph (b) of the proviso to subsection (1) of section five shall not apply. but a notice restraining the erection of any building on land situated within a burgh the town council of which is not charged with the management and maintenance of the highways therein, shall not be served without the consent of such town council, and a building line affecting land within any such burgh shall not be prescribed by a county council or by a district committee without the consent of the town council of such burgh.

Short title and extent.
13.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Roads Improvement Act, 1925.
(2) This Act shall not extend to Northern Ireland."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, these clauses merely gather together the provisions as regards notice which occur separately in Clauses 4 and 5, and accordingly they are purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 24, leave out Clause 9 and insert the said new clauses.—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

WIDOWS, ORPHANS AND OLD AGE CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1.
Contributory pensions for widows, orphans, and persons between the ages of 65 and 70.
1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act relating to the payment of contributions (including payments out of moneys provided by Parliament) and otherwise, pensions shall be payable as follows, that is to say—
(b) in respect of the orphan children while under the age hereinafter specified of an insured man or of an insured widow, a pension at the rate of seven shillings and sixpence per week for each such child (in this Act called an "orphan's pension").
LORD ARNOLD LORD ARNOLD moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (1), to leave out "widow" and insert "married woman". The noble Lord said: This Amendment deals with a small point, but it raises an important principle. The point is so small and the principle is so important that I think there is a very strong case to put before the Government for accepting the Amendment. The matter is a little complicated, but I think I can explain it to your Lordships in comparatively few words. Under the Bill as it now stands, to obtain an orphan's pension the orphan must be the child of an insured man or an insured widow. That is to say, when an insured woman marries an uninsured man and both parents die, the orphan children will not get any pension or allowance unless either (1), the man dies first and the widow continues to be insured, in which case they will get pensions after the widow has died; or (2), the man becomes on marriage a voluntary contributor. There cannot, I think, be any dispute as regards the justice of what I am proposing. The difficulty raised does involve an important principle and a considerable injustice, which depends simply upon the question whether, in the case of orphan children such I have described, the husband or the wife dies first. That is the determining factor, and it is, of course, purely a matter of accident.
Consider the position. If the Bill remains as it is, the woman may be contributing under this scheme from the age
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of 16 until she is over 60 and, if she has an uninsured husband—that is, a man who, owing to the contributory principle about which I spoke at length on the Second Reading, does not come into the scheme and is not insured—she may contribute for all those years and, if she then dies, perhaps just before she is 65, she will not get any benefit whatever for her contributions. There would be no widow's pension and no orphans' pension if she died after her husband, and further she would get no old age pension unless she remained insured until the age of 65 or became a voluntary contributor earlier.
Let me put a specific case. Take the case of an insured woman who is a breadwinner and who has married, say, a disabled man who cannot work or can work only very little, and who is not insured. The Minister of Health in another place said, when this matter was brought forward, that the man could become a voluntary contributor. That is true enough, if he can afford it; but many of the men in these cases cannot afford it, and that fact, therefore, by no means covers the ground or meets the position. Consequently a woman bread-winner might have been paying insurance contributions for forty or forty-five years without gaining any advantage from the Bill. In particular it seems to me a very great hardship that, if she dies first, her husband dies after her and there are orphan children within the meaning of the Act, they get no pension at all.
The cases, I quite admit, must be very few, but that consideration is of great advantage from the point of view of the Government, because it means that to give this concession would cost very little. Obviously there must be very few cases of an insured woman married to an uninsured husband, where the woman dies first and there are children below the age of fourteen, or of sixteen, if still going to school. I am unable to give the actuarial cost, but it must come to very little, and there is a real grievance. This matter was brought up in another place, but in a slightly different form, which might have involved complications in the case of single women or illegitimate children. The Amendment on the Paper avoids any complications of that sort. Lord Askwith's Amendment also avoids them, and I am not sure whether, as it is worded, it is not

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preferable to my own, and if it is I should be very glad to give way and allow his Amendment to be inserted in the Bill.
I think I have said sufficient to show that there is a real injustice here, and there is, think, a very strong reason why the Government should accept the Amendment. The Government may say that there are administrative difficulties, that it is not easy, for instance, in the ease of a woman who dies, and then her husband dies after a lapse, say, of ten years, leaving children, and that then you have got to go back and see how the woman stood in her insurance. If that is the line which the Government are going to take, that position can be met by throwing the onus of proof upon the claimants. If they cannot make good their case then there will be no allowance paid, and they will be no worse off than they are under the Bill as it stands now, because they get nothing now. There must, however, be cases where such proof can be given, and I therefore strongly press the Amendment upon the Government.
The Bill has to go to another place, anyhow, because several Amendments are going to be inserted at the instance of the Government, and, humanly speaking, I think one can guarantee that there will be no trouble over this Amendment in another place. If I may, I would plead with the noble Marquess to accept this small Amendment, partly on the grounds which I have just stated, but also in view of the strong case which I have been able to make. He has always treated us on these Benches with the greatest courtesy, consideration and fairness. We appreciate that, and ask him if he cannot grant this Amendment as a small encouragement, so that we may feel that, although our numbers are few and we cannot prevail in the Division Lobby, yet we do not always move Amendments in vain.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 22, leave out ("widow") and insert ("married woman").—(Lord Arnold.)
LORD ASRWITH: Before the noble Marquess replies, as the noble Lord has referred to my Amendment [to insert, after "widow," "or of the insured wife of an uninsured man"] and expressed his readiness to take either of the
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Amendments, I think I may say that I am of his opinion, in one sense, and rather agree with him that the words of my Amendment are to be preferred, because I have a feeling that the word "widow" ought to stand. I think I can put the case very shortly indeed, for I know of a typical ease in Lambeth where this sort of thing has occurred. A woman was insured for years. Her husband was a cripple and not insured, and I believe was unable to do any work. There are two children under fourteen. The woman dies, the man dies a fortnight afterwards, and the children have no allowance. That is a typical instance of the kind of case intended to be provided for by these Amendments. It seems to me that this is really a casus omissus in the Bill, which I hope the noble Marquess will see remedied.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): I need not say that it is my wish, and not only my wish, but the wish of all my colleagues on these Benches, to treat not only the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, and his colleagues, but all noble Lords, with that courtesy which I am glad to say is a distinguishing mark of your Lordships' House. If I could see my way to accept the Amendment moved in such kindly terms by the noble Lord I would do so, but I would ask him to remember that it is really impossible to cover all the hard cases in a Bill of this kind. It is quite evident that under a Bill of a far-reaching character, touching very subtle points and necessarily with very subtle distinctions, you must have a certain number of hard cases, and the only point for your Lordships is whether this matter is of such substantial importance that the insertion of this Amendment in the Bill is to be preferred over the administrative difficulties which might arise under it. I think I may lay it down as the main principle not only of this Bill, but of all legislation in this country, that the man, the husband, the father, while he it; alive, is looked upon as the bread-winner of the family, and therefore on the face of it the cases which the noble Lord has put, quite fairly, of the children of a widow who survives her husband, and the children of a widower who survives his wife, are fundamentally different. The widower who survives his wife is responsible, as he always has been

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according to English law, for the maintenance of his children in a way far more obligatory, by our practice and theory, than is the widow, and therefore there is this distinction.
But the noble Lord thinks this case is a hard case which ought to be remedied, and he conceives the case of a family in which the wife was insured and the husband was not, the wife pre-deceases her husband, and the children lose all the rights they otherwise would have had. Well, they do not lose, as the noble Lord himself admitted, all their rights, because it is clear from the Bill that the husband may become himself a voluntary contributor, and therefore may enter into the full privileges of insurance, and of course the children after him would benefit and get the full allowances which are provided under the Bill. Therefore, from the very limited number of cases which, as the noble Lord admitted, would in any case arise, you must eliminate a further category—namely, that in which the husband avails himself of this power and becomes an insured person as a voluntary contributor.
There is left only the very limited number of cases where the widower is unable to become a voluntary contributor. But they must be a very small number of cases. The great number of instances, I apprehend, in which the wife is insured and the husband is not insured is where the husband is a man of more or less independent means, a shopkeeper or something of that kind, and the wife is insured because she was insured before she married and keeps up her insurance still. I suggest that the cases where those people are in very poor circumstances and the husband is unable to avail himself of the privilege of becoming a voluntary subscriber are very few. Then we have to balance against meeting that particular case the administrative difficulty. As I understand from the noble Lord, the pension would be suspended while the crippled husband was alive and it would only be operative when the husband followed his wife to the grave. Is that so?
LORD ARNOLD: Yes.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: So observe. The crippled husband would be able to support his wife during his life
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time, and one would imagine he could only become a voluntary contributor by using the same resources which enabled him to support his children while he lived. Then the administrative difficulty arises. Finally, the husband dies, perhaps fifteen years after the insured wife died. How are we to trace the history of the case? These things are scattered all over the country. No doubt the cases will not be very many, but they will not be confined to large areas where records are easily available. I am advised that the administrative difficulty would be very great indeed. We consider that for the purpose of meeting this very limited case which I have tried to describe they would be too great. For this reason we can hardly accept the Amendment. I may say that as the words stand the Amendment would really go much too far, because it would cut out the insured widow, too, but no doubt that is an accident and could be put right.
LORD ARNOLD: I am very much obliged to the noble Marquess for his very full reply. I am, of course, disappointed and I still think that the balance of argument is in favour of the acceptance of the Amendment. I should prefer the Amendment to be negatived rather than withdrawn.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD ASKWITH,who had on the Paper an Amendment, in paragraph (b) of subsection (1), after "widow," to insert "or of the insured wife of an uninsured man," said: I associate myself with the noble Lord opposite and will not move this Amendment.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Widows' Pensions.
(2) A widow's pension shall continue to be payable until the widow attains the age of seventy unless she re-marries before attaining that age, in which case the pension shall cease except in respect of such part thereof, if any, as is payable by way of additional allowance in respect of children.
(3) An additional allowance shall, subject as hereinafter provided, be paid to the widow together with and as part of the pension.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved to leave out all the words in subsection (2) after "cease" and also to add to subsection (3) the following proviso:
"Provided that if for any reason other than the death of the widow, the widow's pension ceases to be payable before the expiration of the time during which an additional allowance is payable, such cessor shall not affect the continuance of the additional allowance."
The noble Marquess said: It would probably be convenient that I should describe these Amendments together. The proviso is really directed to filling a little gap left in the House of Commons. The Amendment put in, in that House, was intended to cover this point, that where for any reason a widow's pension came to an end it was unfair—so it was thought, and rightly thought—that the allowances for the children should also come to an end and they were continued. But when the Amendment was made it was not observed that it only applied in the case of widows of insured persons who died after the passing of the Act, and there was left out the case of the children of widows whose husbands died before the passing of the Act. In that case there is a pension to the widow' of limited duration during the young life of the children, and if that came to an end for any reason—there are several reasons why it might come to an end—then, as the Bill is now drafted, the children's allowances would lapse with it. It is in order to make that good that these consequential Amendments are inserted.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 19, leave out from ("cease") to the end of line 21.—
Page 3, line 24, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.
CLAUSE 6 [Special provisions as to additional allowances and widows' and orphans' pensions]:
LORD BUCKMASTER LORD BUCKMASTER moved to add the following new subsection:—
"() Where on the representation by the local authority, or from any court, the Minister is satisfied that it is in the interests of any woman entitled to a widow's pension that the pension should not be paid to her but should be applied for the benefit of the
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widow and the children (if any), he may direct that the pension including any additional allowance shall be paid to the local authority or to some other person approved by him to be administered by the local authority or that person for the benefit of the widow and the children (if any)."
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment seeks to introduce into the Bill a subsection which was originally in the Bill when it was introduced in another place, but with a certain modification, which, though slight, I think might have had a very material influence on the fortune of that subsection when it came to be discussed. The Amendment provides that when it is clear that in the interests of a woman her pension ought not to be paid to her it should be applied, either through the local authority or some appointed person, for the benefit of the woman and her children. At the present moment there is no such provision in the Bill at all. The nearest approach to it is to be found in Clause 6 (2) where it is provided, in respect of an additional allowance, that if a woman has deserted or abandoned or ceased to support the children or has become disqualified from receiving a widow's pension, the money may be administered in the interests of the child.
There are one or two instances that I would like to place before you in regard to the eases which this Amendment is designed to cover. It will be observed that if the woman is disqualified the whole thing ceases, but disqualification can only take place for certain specified causes. One is prolonged and, I suppose, notorious cohabitation with some person to whom she is not married, and the others are in the Third Schedule of the Bill. Those cases are where a woman be comes an inmate of a workhouse or is detained in a lunatic asylum, or is convicted of an offence and ordered to be imprisoned without the option of a fine. Those are the only grounds for which the disqualification for the receipt of a pension exists.
Therefore, the position is that a woman may be a notorious drunkard, sentenced again and again at the police court, but not sent to prison without the option of a fine. She will still be receiving a pension and, to the knowledge of all the people in the locality, she will be completely incapable of applying that money for the purpose for which it was designed.

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She may be, not an inmate of an asylum, but a person of weak intellect, who cannot possibly use that money for the purposes for which the national aid and employers' subscriptions have been designed. You could also make many further suggestions. She might be in the hands of a moneylender. It is perfectly true that the pension is not assignable; but it is equally true that a woman may get into the hands of a moneylender and may be paying week after week money which ought to be used for some other purpose, under the conditions of the loan and under terms grossly extortionate. That ought not to be permitted, and I suggest there should be some means of securing that the money which is going to the woman, partly public money and partly the employers money, should be used for her benefit and the benefit of her children through the administration of the local authority or some other body—the body which is already dealing with the care of the children if she abandons them.
An objection was taken to the corresponding clause in the original Bill in another place and in the end the Government withdrew it; I never could quite see why. Having read the debate, one thing is plain—that the original debate objected to words which are not found in my Amendment. The original clause as it stood contained this provision—
"Where on the representation by the local authority or any court or otherwise…"
It was argued that "otherwise" means that any busybody might complain and that the Minister might be influenced by somebody he met at dinner, or by some other indirect means, and that you would be placing this woman at the mercy of a perfectly obscure and unknown complainant. It seemed to me that there was some force in that contention. I have left those words out and inserted in their place:
"Where on the representation by the local authority, or from any court…"
Had those words been in the Bill as originally drafted the objection in another place would not have been taken.
Once the objection was taken a considerably prolonged debate took place upon it and I am bound to say, having read the report all through, that I find very little of it directly applicable to the
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real point that has to be considered. But the Government said: "We will withdraw the clause." In my judgment they ought not to have withdrawn it. They ought to have modified it in the manner I suggest, or in some equivalent way, and so have retained this protection. I protest utterly against the view which found expression more than once in the debate—that because a woman had subscribed for this she is therefore at liberty to waste it exactly as she pleases. I agree that there should not be anything in the nature of inquisitorial investigations as to the way it is done; but whenever a local authority or a court says: "This woman is unfit to have the custody of this money; she will spend it in the public house and the children will never get a farthing of it"; the time has come when the local authority, or someone appointed by them, should administer that money.
It is for the benefit of the woman as much as for anybody, as the Amendment in terms states, that I am moving my Amendment. Every one of us recognises—we have all expressed our view upon it again and again—the extreme disadvantage in which this House stands in considering Bills of this consequence at this period of the year. We are all agreed about it. The Government are not to blame; they cannot help it. We know there will be this feeling. If this Amendment is put into the Bill it will go down to another place. They have already rejected something similar and it may lead to prolonged debate and they will send it back again. The Amendment is proposed in order that there should be a proper application of the funds and I trust that your Lordships will accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 43, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Buckmaster.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I need not say how cordially I agree with the closing words of the noble and learned Lord's speech concerning the great difficulty in which your Lordships' House is placed in considering very important Bills full of great complication, Bills upon which your Lordships' opinion would be very valuable because of your knowledge of affairs, at a period of the Session when it is extremely difficult to carry out our work effectually. I have often said so when holding a position of

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greater freedom and less responsibility and I still adhere to the view. But the noble and learned Lord has said most justly and considerately that he knows we are not to blame in the matter.
As to the merits of this Amendment, I need not say that on the face of it I have great sympathy with it, for two reasons: first, because it was subject to the very important modification to which the noble and learned Lord has called attention when the clause was originally in the Bill; secondly, because on the merits of the Amendment what the noble Lord has said has great weight. We fully recognise that in the case of the children and the additional allowances, it may be necessary, where the widow has proved herself unfit to administer them, to take them out of her hands. The noble and learned Lord proposes as it were to extend the principle so that it may touch the widow herself and not merely her children. I do not mean this quite literally, but that the broad principle should be extended, and naturally we have great sympathy with that. The noble and learned Lord has a considerable advantage over me in that he has fully read the debate in the House of Commons. I do not find the least fault with him, I need not say, for the reason I have stated, but as his Amendment only appeared on the Paper this morning I have not been able to familiarise myself with the full details of what passed in another place. I have, however, made myself acquainted with the facts to this extent.
The original clause was struck out practically by the unanimous wish of the Opposition in another place. So far as I know, there was no dissentient voice whether from the Labour or the Liberal Benches. Indeed a very eloquent speech was delivered by a very distinguished colleague of the noble and learned Lord, Sir Alfred Mond, urging the Government to abandon the clause. Therefore, it is a little difficult to ask us to go back upon the decision which was then arrived at. The noble and learned Lord said that the bulk of the debate was upon the words "or otherwise." That may be so. But I think he will agree that this was not altogether the argument. In the speech of the distinguished colleague to which I have referred, a good deal of weight was placed upon not adding complexity to an
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already complicated Bill. Honourable gentlemen belonging to the Labour Party were averse from leaving it in the power even of a magistrate to make representations which would put the clause in force. The noble and learned Lord retains the magistrate; but I suppose a "court" means any court of summary jurisdiction?
LORD BUCKMASTER: Yes.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Or two magistrates or even one magistrate?
LORD BUCKMASTER: Yes.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am afraid it would be impossible, as I am sure he will recognise, for us to accept his Amendment straight off, in face of what I have said. It is clear that an argument might be developed that all magistrates are not wise, that even two magistrates speaking together are not wise, that they might become very inquisitorial in country districts and might hold strong views on special kinds of moral obliquity which would drive them to interfere with widows who, if not perhaps perfect from the moral point of view, were not at all unfitted to look after their children and to administer their pensions.
I am afraid the noble Lord's friends in another place would be rather unwilling to give this power to the "great unpaid"—I think that is how they are described when one wishes to be offensive (noble Lords never are) to the magistrates—who might have special views of a rather inquisitorial character, and in that way these women might be exposed to a kind of persecution. I have great respect for the noble and learned Lord and his opinion, but the most I can do is to promise to consider his Amendment between now and Report. I could not possibly accept it now. I am afraid it might have a formidable effect in the House of Commons. I would look into it if he would take that amount of concession and not press it now, because I confess the Government are not oppose to the merits of the clause which formed part of the original Bill.
LORD BUCKMASTER: It is obvious from what the noble Marquess has said that there is no real answer to the clause. The objections that were put forward in another place were objections which I venture to think do not bear

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examination. The contention that the court would consist, perhaps, of busybodies is absurd. Moreover, it is not only the court. The court have to represent the matter to the Ministry and they have to be satisfied that it is in the interests of the woman that the things should be done. I notice that the noble Marquess referred to matters which found their way into the debate in another place. I cannot think why it was ever thought that this was intended to be some kind of a moral scourge to a woman. Indeed, it is not so. Even if the woman were living a life of open, flagrant immorality, as this clause stands, unless it was proved it was in her interest, you could not take the money away. By all means, if you think fit, extend and expand and define it in any manner you please where the woman is, by the weakness of her character, notoriously unfit to have the charge of the spending of the money. That is the real purpose of the Amendment. It is designed in the interest of the women. I am grateful to the noble Marquess for his promise to examine the matter further, and I will not put the House to the inconvenience of a Division, but I feel sure that the more this is examined the more reasons will be found in favour of this Amendment.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I hope my noble friend Lord Salisbury will consider the proposal carefully. It seems to me that the noble and learned Lord opposite has made out an excellent case for his Amendment. I myself do not attach much importance to the fear, which apparently was expressed in another place, as to what magistrates might do. I think, taking them on the whole, they are a sensible body of people, who give fairly good decisions, but as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, they are not the people who determine this. They only recommend to the Minister. The Minister then determines. I must confess that I am not very much influenced by the fact that the whole of the Opposition in another place, including Sir Alfred Mond, were against the Amendment. I should have been rather inclined to say that that fact was sufficient evidence that the Amendment ought to be accepted.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clauses 7 to 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Voluntary contributors]:
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The Amendments to this clause standing in my name are practically drafting. They are in order to bring the general provisions of Clause 13 as regards exempted and excepted persons into line with the provisions of Clause 14 and Clause 15. Clauses 14 and 15 deal with people who were employed before the passing of the Act, and who have become voluntary contributors later. It is necessary to bring their case into line with that of others in Clause 13, and these Amendments are accordingly moved.
Amendments moved—
Page 12, line 34, after ("ceases") insert ("or has ceased")
Page 12, line 36, after ("ceases") insert ("or has ceased").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14 agreed to.
Clause 15 [Persons employed in excepted employments]:
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I have to propose drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 16, line 15, leave out ("any other paragraph or")
Page 16, lines 19 and 20, leave out ("other paragraph or")
Page 17, line 33, after ("to") insert ("a")
Page 17, line 34, leave out ("paragraphs") and insert ("paragraph")
Page 17, line 36, leave out ("paragraphs") and insert ("paragraph").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 16 and 17 agreed to.
Clause 18:
Widow's and orphans' pensions when husband or parent died before the commencement of Act.
18.—A widow's pension shall be payable to the widow of a man who died before the commencement of this Act, and an orphan's pension shall be payable in respect of the orphan child of a man or widow who died before the commencement of this Act, in the like circumstances and under the like conditions as if the husband, father, or mother, as the case may be had died immediately after the commencement of this Act and had then been under the age of

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seventy; and the foregoing provisions of this Act relating to such pensions shall apply accordingly, subject however to the following modifications:—

(a)the deceased husband, father, or mother shall be deemed to have been insured at the time of his or her death, for the purpose of this Act, if he or she would have been or would have been deemed to have been so insured by virtue of any employment if this Act had been then in force, and the decision of the Minister on any question whether a person would have been so insured or deemed to have been so insured shall be final and conclusive;

(b) the deceased husband, father or mother, as the case may be, if deemed to be so insured, shall be deemed to be the person in respect, of whose insurance the pension is payable;

(c) a widow's pension shall be payable only if the widow has not remarried before the commencement of this Act, and if at the commencement of this Act there is living at least one child of the marriage, or of any former marriage of either parent, under the age of fourteen: Provided that if no widow's pension is payable by reason of there being no child under the age of fourteen, but there is a child over the age of fourteen in respect of whom an additional allowance would be payable if the widow were eneitled to a widow's pension, an additional allowance shall be payable in respect of that child.

(d) a widow's pension shall cease to be payable at the expiration of six months from the date on which the pension ceases to include any additional allowance as part thereof or on which the youngest child attains the age of fourteen, whichever is the earlier;

(e) of the statutory conditions required to be complied with, condition (b) shall not apply, and condition (a) shall be deemed to have been complied with if the Minister, whose decision shall be final and conclusive, is satisfied that the normal occupation of the person in respect of whose insurance the pension is payable was at the time of his or her death such as would have been employment in respect of which contributions would have been payable under this Act if this Act had been then in force.

LORD ASKWITH LORD ASKWITH moved to omit the proviso to paragraph (c) and to insert "or the age not exceeding sixteen up to which the child remains in full-time instruction in a school." The noble Lord
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said: I am asked to bring forward this Amendment with regard to widows of men who died before the commencement of the Act, so as to provide that when such a widow has children between the ages of fourteen and sixteen, and not exceeding sixteen, and her child remains in full-time instruction in a school up to the age of sixteen, she shall have this benefit. I have taken these words from those applying to pensions that are given to orphans as set forth in Clause 1, subsection (2). That states that the specified age in relation to any child shall be the age of fourteen or the age, not exceeding sixteen, up to which the child remains under full-time instruction in a day school. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 28, leave out from ("fourteen") to the end of line 36, and insert ("or the age not exceeding sixteen up to which the child remains in full-time instruction in a school").—(Lord Askwith.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: In this ease the noble Lord proposes to extend the privilege to the case of a child up to the age of sixteen who is still at school. The noble Lord ought to remember, I think, that in the case of the ordinary widow the privilege will only extend until six months after the youngest child is fourteen. The noble Lord would give a sort of preferential position to the case he mentions. That is really not defensible. Although the sum of money involved in his Amendment is not a very great one—I do not think it is more than £180,000—yet when the case of the ordinary widow is covered a much larger sum would be involved. It would involve a cost of something over £1,000,000, and I am afraid we have exhausted all our margins actuarially under the Bill, and we can hardly face an additional expense. For this reason I hope my noble friend will not press the Amendment.
LORD ASKWITH: After what the noble Marquess has said I cannot mess the Amendment, but I would remind him of the words of Clause 1 which specify that children from the age of fourteen and up to the age of sixteen, if they remain at school, are to be given this benefit.
LORD ARNOLD: I have only just looked at this Amendment, and have not been able to familiarise myself with the position as fully as I should like, but I

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think there is some slight misunderstanding. The noble Lord pointed out that in the ordinary case, if a child remains at school till sixteen, then the pension goes on, and this Amendment is applying that principle to the case of widows whose husbands died before the Act comes into operation. In that case the pension is to cease, I think, six months after the age of fourteen. What the noble Lord now proposes is that this case shall be brought into line with the normal case covered by the Bill. It seems to me that there are strong reasons why that should be done.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The point is this, that the subsection which the noble Lord wishes to amend only deals with the case of the child of a man who has attained the age of seventy. That would involve a small amount of money, but, consequentially, the Government would have to cover the cases or children of men who died before the passing of this Bill; and the argument is quite as strong in that case as in the other. It that were admitted then a large sum of money is involved. No doubt it is my fault for not making the matter quite clear.
LORD ASKWITH: Under subsection (2) of Clause 1 the orphans of a man who died before the passing of the Bill get it now between the ages of fourteen and sixteen, if they remain at school under full-time instruction.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The case which the noble Lord is referring to is that of the widow of a man who died after the passing of this Bill.
LORD ASKWITH: All I can do is to ask the noble Marquess to look into the matter again. The point, is much smaller than he imagines it is.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I will certainly look into the matter again.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved to leave out Clause 18. The noble Lord said: The Bill is founded on the principle that no benefit shall be given unless there is some contribution on the part of the person who is to receive benefit. That is the whole foundation of the measure. The Labour Party object to
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that on the ground that in their opinion a pension should not depend upon any subscription or contribution by the person who is to receive the benefit, but that it should be a sum of money given without any contribution from the person himself. The whole foundation of the Bill, and its defence by the Government, has been that this is a contributory measure. I have not looked it up, but I think one of the reasons the Prime Minister gave for bringing in a Bill of this sort was that old age pensions were not contributory and that it would he better to put the whole of the various pensions now in existence, or coming into existence, on a contributory basis.
This clause is not on a contributory basis, and the only defence made by the Minister in charge of the Bill in another place was that it was a little one. We had an example only yesterday of what occurs when you give way on a question of principle. Yesterday the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman, said that electrical fittings could be sold in certain instances and that the whole question should be looked into because certain concessions had been made to municipalities for letting electrical fittings and, therefore, that as that concession had been made it might be just as well to go a little further and see whether certain other concessions could be made to the municipalities.
If, before the Bill has become an Act, we are going to put in a clause which is non-contributory, what force will be given to the argument of the Labour Party who say that none of it should be contributory? I can foresee perfectly well that in two or three years' time people will say: We must extend this Clause 18, the principle has been admitted in this clause and it must be extended. I should not be in the least surprised, after what has taken place to-day to find that even the Conservative Party will surrender the principle and say that, having given way once, having admitted the non-contributory principle into the Bill, we had better go a little further yet. I sincerely hope, although there are not a large number of your Lordships present to-day, that the Government will consider their position and will maintain their original idea, which was that this Bill was to be on a contributory basis.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 18.—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No one can deny that the noble Lord is a master of logic as well as all the other weapons of debate, but, mercifully, your Lordships' House is like the rest of your countrymen in that you are not governed by strict logic and I shall be able to show that the application of strict logic in this case would land us in an absurdity. Let the noble Lord conceive the contrast between the case of the family of a man who died just after the passing of this Bill and the man who died just before it became an Act. There are probably children. Their mother has a pension of 10 s., the eldest child has an additional allowance of 5s. until it is fourteen or sixteen, as the case may be, and the other children have 3s. each. Then you turn to the nest door neighbour where the husband died a few months earlier. There is no provision there for the children at all.
That is a contrast which I am quite sure could not be sustained in any argument upon any platform in this country. It is not the case of the woman, hard though that ease be. She is probably a young woman, and may be expected to be able to earn something. It is the case of the children. A woman only has a pension, in the case contemplated by Clause 18, so long as her children are of tender age, that is to say, the pension is granted, not to her, she has it in right of her children so that she may be able to protect them. But the children themselves are to be, and quite illogically, agree, treated in a special position.
When I spoke on the Second Reading to the Bill I said that one of its objects was to protect the rising generation, to take care that they had a chance of being brought up, not only in their own interest, but in the interest of the country, under conditions which might lead to their being healthy and efficient citizens. If this Amendment is carried that would have to be abandoned in respect of all those children whose fathers died just before the passing of the Bill into an Act. And that would be an application of logic from which your Lordships will shrink, and as far as His Majesty's Government are concerned they can have nothing whatever to do with the Amendment of the noble Lord.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: May I remind the noble Marquess that only a moment ago, when the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, moved an Amendment, he rejected it on the ground that no doubt it was a hard case which he would like to meet, but that there must always be hard cases?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I said it was a very rare case.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: Yes, hard and rare. Still it was a hard case, and the Amendment was rejected on that ground. No doubt if my Amendment were carried and the clause left out there would be certain harder cases, but that you cannot help. If the Bill has been introduced in order to deal with every hard case, I do not know where the money is coming from.
LORD DARLING: The noble Marquess has pointed out with great truth that my noble friend is a master of logic. May I appeal to him on this ground: that the sooner we allow this Bill to come into operation the fewer people there will be for this clause to apply to?
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 18 agreed to.
Clause 19:
Pensions of widows and orphans of men over seventy at commencement of Act.
19.—(1) A widows pension shall be payable to the widow of a man who dies after the commencement of this Act and who had attained the age of seventy before the commencement of this Act, if at the time of his death her husband was, or would had he survived the second day of July, nineteen hundred and twenty-six, have been, entitled to an old age pension under the Old Age Pensions Acts, 1908 to 1924, by virtue of the next succeeding section, and if there is living at the time of his death at least one child of the marriage, or of any former marriage of either parent, under the age of fourteen:
Provided that such a pension shall cease to be payable at the expiration of six months from the date on which the pension ceases to include any additional allowance as part thereof or on which the youngest child attains the age of fourteen, whichever is the earlier.
THE MARQUESS Or SALISBURY THE MARQUESS Or SALISBURY moved, in the proviso of subsection (1), after "Provided that," to insert:
"(a) if no widow's pension is payable by reason of there being no child under the age of fourteen, but

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there is a child over the age of fourteen in respect of whom an additional allowance would be payable if the widow were entitled to a widow's pension, an additional allowance shall be payable in respect of that child; and
(b"
The noble Marquess said: This deals with the case where the children are between the ages of fourteen and sixteen, and the Amendment is really consequential. It is designed to cover the special case of wives of men who are over seventy at the commencement of the Act, and it brings them into line with the others.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 21, after ("that") insert the said words.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to
Clauses 20 and 21 agreed to
Clause 22:
Residential qualification of pensioners, &c.
22. A sum shall not be paid on account of a pension—

(a) to or in respect of any person while that person is absent from Great Britain; or

(b) if payment of the sum is not obtained within three months after the date on which it has become payable.

EARL BEAUCHAMP EARL BEAUCHAMP had given Notice to add to paragraph (a): "except when resident in another part of His Majesty's Dominions" The noble Earl said: Having regard to the very welcome statement made by the noble Marquess on the, Second Reading, I do not propose to waste your Lordships' time by moving this Amendment.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clauses 23 to 28 agreed to
Clause 29 [Claims and Appeals]:
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I have a consequential drafting Amendment to this clause. The words "or decision" were inserted in subsection (3) but were omitted from the proviso, and I propose to put them in here.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 40, after ("award") insert ("or decision").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 30 to 36 agreed to.
Clause 37:
Termination of certain benefits and contributions of persons over sixty-five.
37.—(1) As from the appointed day the right to sickness and disablement benefit under the Insurance Act and to unemployment benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 to 1924, shall cease if the person insured thereunder has then attained or on his attaining the age of sixty-five.
(2) As from the appointed day no contributions under the Insurance Act shall be payable by or in respect of a person who has attained the age of sixty-five.
LORD ARNOLD LORD ARNOLD moved to omit from subsection (1) the words "and to unemployment benefit under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, 1920 to 1924." The noble Lord said: This is, if I may say so, an Amendment of great importance. It deals with a situation which I described to your Lordships upon the Second Reading. Briefly, the point is that, under the Bill as it now stands, an insured man who reaches the age of sixty-five is entitled to a pension of 10 s, a week for himself, but he is not entitled to a pension of 10s, a week for his wife if she is below the age of sixty-five. As the result of getting this pension of 10s, a week for himself, he falls out of the unemployment benefit altogether, if he should become unemployed. That means that a man may have been paying unemployment contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Acts for a long term of years, contributions which, in the event of unemployment, would entitle him to 18 s, a week for himself and 5s, a week for his wife, that is 23 s, a week in all. Under this Bill that 23 s, a week is to be cut down to 10 s, a week. I think that this is an extremely unfair position.
In reply to my observations on the Second Reading, the noble Marquess said that actuarially, looking at the matter as a whole, the benefits which a man will get under this Bill are three and a half times as great as that which he will lose under the unemployment scheme. That statement requires a great deal of qualification and it makes very wide assumptions. Let me take a specific case. Take the case of a man who becomes sixty-five and at once falls out of employment. Naturally, when a man reaches the age of sixty-five he is very much more likely to be without employment than is a younger man. That man lives, let me

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say, until he is sixty-seven, his wife being five years younger than he. Under this Bill all that he will get is 10 s, a week, whereas he would have got 23 s, a week, if he were entitled to unemployment benefit, for as long a period as he was entitled to it. There would therefore be a clear loss to this man of 13 s, a week, which is a very serious matter. In short, he loses the benefits which he ought to have secured on account of his unemployment contributions and which, without this Bill, he would have secured. The man is definitely put in a worse position owing to this Bill. That is the point that I wish very strongly to impress upon your Lordships.
Now I come to the argument of the noble Marquess on the Second Reading, which was to the effect that this Bill, on the whole, gives greater benefits than those which are taken away. I think I am putting his point fairly. As I have said, there has been a good deal of argument about that point, with which I will not detain your Lordships, but even if, for the sake of discussing the problem. I admit the statistical contention, it was really a very extraordinary doctrine that the noble Marques propounded, as I think I can very easily demonstrate to your Lordships. What does it come to? This Bill is a new social reform measure, and the Government apparently takes up the position that when a new social reform measure is introduced, or when some new benefit of one kind or another is conferred by the action of the central Government upon a certain class of the population, then the Government is quite at liberty, without consulting these people at all and without giving them the slightest opportunity of saying whether they approve or not, to announce their intention to take away some pre-existing benefit. That is the position which the Government has got itself into.
In this connection let me take an example. Last year the Labour Government made a very great advance in the direction of the free breakfast table. They remitted a very large amount of taxation, thus helping the workers to the extent, probably, of £20,000,000 to £25,000,000 a year. Would it therefore have been competent and proper for the Labour Government to say: "We have given the workers £20,000,000 a year and therefore we will
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stop unemployment benefit for a number of years; on the whole they will be better off, and so it is quite all right"? I say that this is an impossible position for any Government to take up; but it is precisely the position which this Government is taking up. The more the matter is examined, the more clear, I am certain, will it become that their position is quite untenable.
Before sitting down, I think I can put the matter quite shortly in three or four points. First of all, I repeat that no one ought to be placed in a worse position owing to this Bill. At any rate they ought not to be placed in a worse position unless they have been consulted and have agreed to take the risk. In the second place—and this is a vitally important point and one which, if I may say so, ought to appeal to your Lordships very strongly, because it is a point which is brought up so often in connection with the various problems which come before us—what the Government is doing is to commit a breach of contract. There can be no dispute about that. These workers have paid this money over a series of years in order to get certain benefits. That was the contract. Now they find that the benefit is to be taken away from them. That is the position, and although it may be true that in some cases they will be actuarially better off, in other cases they will not be better off, as I have pointed out to your Lordships.
But even if the contention of the noble Marquess be admitted—and I do not admit it for a moment—these people certainly ought to be consulted. This is a very bad precedent that the Government is setting. It is a precedent which may well be brought up again and again in future years. The workers will not know where they are. They will not know whether, some years hence, another social reform measure may not be brought in which may be beneficial to some of them in certain ways, but under which they are to be deprived of benefits to which they ought to be entitled because of the payments which they have made. May I put this point—and it is virtually my last point—What would be thought in this House if, for instance, some future Government said they would reduce the rate of War Loan interest; that since the Loan was issued circumstances had

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changed a great deal, prices had fallen and the purchasing power of money had increased greatly, and that therefore it was a perfectly proper thing to reduce the rate of interest: that it was not necessary to ask the holders of the Loan for their consent because they could be shown actuarially to be better off? What would noble Lords say if that were to happen? I can clearly picture their attitude. I can think what would be said in this House about breaches of contract, the blow to confidence, that people did not know where they were, and so forth. But that is exactly what the Government are doing with regard to the workers. They are breaking the contract and the people who are paying these monies will have no certain assurance that the benefits to which they are entitled will be forthcoming.
Finally, the position of the Government is quite illogical. The noble Marquess said on the previous Amendment that you cannot be altogether logical in these matters. I am not disagreeing with that observation, but it is quite illogical to say that because people over sixty-five will actuarially, or some of them will or may, get certain benefits therefore you may dock these unemployment benefits. If you are going to work the scheme on that basis then people below sixty-five ought to have something taken away. I do not want to use strong language, but I think it is a very mean and shabby provision which will work very hardly in certain cases. It is an injustice which ought to be put right, and I hope that this opportunity which I am affording the Government of putting it right will be taken advantage of.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 5, leave out from ("Act") to ("shall") in line 6—(Lord Arnold.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am sorry to have to trouble your Lordships with these very intricate financial points, but I must do my best to answer the noble Lord. Let me, first of all, deal with his charge that we are sanctioning a breach of contract. I really do not think that that is so. Your Lordships will remember that the only contract is with reference to covenanted benefits. The uncovenanted benefit is a purely free gift, so far as the country is concerned, and the only covenanted benefit which a man is entitled to is twenty-six weeks'
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benefit. Therefore you have to compare the twenty-six weeks' benefit with the pension of 10 s. per week for life. That is the only fair comparison.
The noble Lord, of course, has assumed the strongest case for his argument, and he has assumed that the wife of the old age pensioner would not also be getting the pension—that she would be under sixty-five years of age. He must, however, also contemplate the case where she would be sixty-five, too, and where the family would be getting, not 10 s, but twice 10 s, namely, £1 per week for life. That has to be compared with the very limited benefit which unemployment benefit would constitute. But there is more, because it is the very essence of the unemployment benefit that it is really given in contemplation of the man being employed again. That is the whole point of it. It is to bridge over a period of unemployment. That is the fundamental conception of it; whereas in the case which the noble Lord has contemplated it is clear that in all probability the man will never be employed again. That is another consideration. Then there is a quid proquo. There is a penny taken off the unemployed contribution. Under the Bill, as the noble Lord knows, there is a diminution in the contribution hitherto paid as a set-off to the much larger contributions made under this Bill. That has to be taken on the other side.
Lastly, the noble Lord talks as if the Unemployment Insurance Act was sacrosanct and had never been modified. It has been modified over and over again since, it was passed. It was modified by the Labour Government. Under the administration of the old Act there were certain refunds paid, I think, to pensioners over sixty. The noble Lord and his colleagues thought nothing of taking away that refund. They did not think it a breach of contract at all. They did it without winking. The noble Lord never blushed when he did it, and yet we are accused of a breach of contract because we modify the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. These things are very difficult and very intricate, but I will revert in one sentence to the argument which I ventured to advance on the Second Reading—namely, that on the whole the benefits secured by this Bill are actuarially worth three and a half times what is being lost under the modification

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of the unemployment benefit. It is not a bad bargain for the recipients and I am afraid I must resist the Amendment.
LORD ARNOLD: I do not propose to trouble your Lordships with more than a few words, because the Government are not going to accept the Amendment and the matter is extremely controversial I might have a great deal to say with regard to the noble Marquess's reference to our breach of contract, but I will not take up the time of the Committee in doing so. Everybody knows it is the case that very often the wife is a few years younger than her husband, and therefore there are quite a number of cases in which a man comes to be sixty-five, lives two or three years, and during that time the wife is not eligible for the pension of 10s. per week. I also feel that the doctrine of the noble Marquess with regard to what the unemployment benefit is intended to do, contains some rather novel features. It may be that it is intended to "tide over" in the case of younger men, but one of the benefits of the Act is that when men get to an age when they are most likely to be unemployed they will get help. I can only express my regret that the Government have not seen their way to accept this Amendment, and I warn the Government that they have not seen the last of this matter. The Government will hear more about it, because there is a very strong feeling in the country with regard to this particular provision. I certainly, cannot see my way to withdraw the Amendment, and would prefer to have it negatived.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 37 agreed to.
Clauses 38 to 42 agreed to.
Clause 43:
Decennial reports and revision of contributions.
(2) Unless Parliament otherwise determines, during the decennial period commencing the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-six, the ordinary rates of contribution shall be increased in the case of men by twopence a week (of which in the ease of employed persons one penny shall be payable by the employer and one penny by the employed person), and in the case of women by one penny a week (of which in the case of employed persons one halfpenny shall be payable by the employer and one halfpenny by the employed
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person), and similar additional increases shall be made in the contributions at the beginning of the decennial periods commencing the first day of January, nineteen hundred and forty-six, and nineteen hundred and fifty-six.
LORD ARNOLD LORD ARNOLD moved to leave out sub-section (2). The noble Lord said: This Amendment is proposed with the object of removing increases in contributions, which would bear upon the fact that in due course the present non-contributory old age pensions for people over seventy will become contributory. That is what will happen in due course. It is a provision to which we in the Labour Party are stoutly opposed. We have had these non-contributory old age pensions for seventeen years, and to take them away, as this Bill will in due course do, is, in our view, a thoroughly reactionary step in social legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Banbury, has always been opposed to these, pensions, and said so on the Second Reading, but I was a little surprised to hear that the noble Marquess who leads the. House seemed to welcome with a good deal of enthusiasm the fact that in due course non-contributory pensions will become contributory. This is a provision of the Bill about which not much was said in another place. Ministers there, I think, thought it best to speak in a very measured degree about it, because it is realised there that this is a provision about which a great deal will be heard as time goes on.
But perhaps more surprising still was the attitude of the Liberal Party. These old age pensions were introduced by the Liberal Party in 1908 and I did hope on this point that I night have had a little support from the Liberal Party on the Second Reading. But that support was not forthcoming; on the contrary, we were told, in effect, that the Government were doing good work and the hope was expressed that they would go on doing their good work. That is very astonishing, seeing that this Bill will in due course abolish altogether the chief contribution which the Liberal Party has made to social reform—and it was a great contribution. However, with both the Government and the Liberal Party taking a different view from me, I am afraid there is not much chance of my carrying this Amendment. At the same

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time, I move it because I shall be interested to hear what the Government has to say on the matter.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 31, to line 2 on page 42, leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Arnold.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am afraid that I have nothing to say, unless I were to go to the abominable length of repeating exactly what I said on the Second Reading. It is of the very essence of our scheme that there shall be these revisions at each decennial period. As a matter of fact, this subsection only provides for one revision—
A NOBLE LORD A NOBLE LORD dissented.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I may be wrong about that, but I think that is so. However that may be, the awful consequence which the noble Lord anticipates will not accrue in the first decennial period. It will only be if, at later decennial periods, the same process is repeated, that the old age pensions, including the ones for people over seventy, will become contributory. But I do not recede a single hair's breadth from the line I took on the Second Reading. In our view the class for whose benefit this Bill is passed do not desire, or ought not to desire, to have a non-contributory pension. That sort of thing belongs to the Poor Law. It is outdoor relief, and that is not the true road of advance. The true road of advance is to help people to help themselves. That the principle to which the Government adhere.
LORD ARNOLD: The closing words of the noble Marquess open up very big issues, which I do not wish to discuss now. With regard to the details of this matter, I think I am correct in saying that the young entrants into the scheme, who come in at sixteen, will begin contributing to their old age pension for people over seventy in the year 1936, and I think their contributions will then, as time goes on at any rate, go to cover part of the cost of old age pensions, and under the whole scheme of the Bill the pensions will become contributory, whereas at the present time these pensions are given for nothing. But I do not propose to carry the matter further,
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because there seems to be a complete difference of principle here. Again, however, I would like the Amendment to be negatived.
On Question, Amendment negatived
Clause 43 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.
LORD ARNOLD: May I ask on what, day it is proposed to take the Report stage?
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I propose to take the next stage on Tuesday if that is convenient to the noble Lord.

JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS (REGULATION OF REPORTS) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments.
Clause 4:
Application of Parts II. to V. in rural districts.
(2)The Minister of Health may by order apply to any rural district, or contributory place therein, any provision in Parts II. to V. or Part VIII. of this Act, in the same manner as provisions of the Public Health Act, 1875, which apply to urban districts, may be applied to rural districts, or contributory places therein, and section two hundred and seventy-six of that Act shall be extended accordingly.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved, in subsection (2), after "Act," to insert "except the sections in Parts II and III of this Act which are mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, if this Amendment is carried I shall move a further Amendment to the Second Schedule. My object is as follows. Clause 4 (2) states that the Minister of Health may by order apply to any rural district or contributory place therein, any provision in Parts II to V or Part VIII of this Bill, and then, if your Lordships will turn to the Second Schedule, you will see that there are

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certain sections, nine in number, in Parts II and III which cannot be adopted by rural district council.
Those two provisions are in contradiction. One of these clauses—namely, Clause 39—was specially put into the Schedule on the Committee stage by your Lordships, because you considered that it was not adapted to rural district councils, but unless my Amendment is carried it is open to any Minister to apply this clause and make it adopted by a rural district. My Amendment, if carried, would affect only nine clauses and there are 87 in the Bill; therefore I do not interfere in any way with the power of the Minister to allow other clauses to be applied to rural districts. I do not approve of giving Ministers all these powers. Much to my sorrow, we have gone rather far in that direction; but I certainly think that, unless we enact that the provision that these nine clauses mentioned in the Schedule are not to be adopted by a rural district council, we shall render the provision absolutely useless. I earnestly hope that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will accept my Amendment and I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 3, after ("Act") insert ("except the sections in Parts II and III this Act which are mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act").—(Lord Banbury of Saytham.)
LORD EMMOTT: My Lords, the noble Lord opposite has been a very consistent and sincere opponent of nearly the whole of this Bill. I think he dislikes it as a whole and almost everything in it. Therefore I am not in the least surprised that he seeks at this late stage to make a considerable hole in it. I would, however, venture to point out that there is no inconsistency between subsection (2) of Clause 4 and the Second Schedule. The Schedule contains provisions which may not be adopted by a rural district council—that is, these clauses. Subsection (2) of Clause 4 says that "The Minister of Health may by order apply" them. There is no real inconsistency. But that is not the main point, and I am still not without hope that when I have explained the matter the noble Lord will see that it would be inadvisable to press his Amendment.
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England and Wales are divided, as the noble Lord knows, into urban districts, including, of course, cities and boroughs, and rural districts; but the division is by no means either accurate or scientific. In some urban districts there are portions of a rural character and in many rural districts there are substantial urban communities, large villages or small towns. In those circumstances it has been found from experience of local government that provisions of this kind should be of an elastic character, and the most satisfactory plan has been in regard to rural districts that provisions mainly applicable to an urban district should be applied by the Minister of Health, where necessary, to that portion of a rural district which is really urban. That has been the practice for the past fifty years and I believe a considerably longer time; because the Public Health Act, 1875, under which that provision was adopted, was to a large extent a consolidation of older Acts. Under that Act an order of the Ministry of Health can be extended in suitable cases, either to a whole rural district or to any portion therein.
The main point is this. I do not think there are any provisions of the Public Health Act which cannot be applied at present to the urban parts of rural districts. Therefore, if this Amendment were adopted we should be establishing a new precedent, and I venture to urge upon the noble Lord, if I may, that it would be a very undesirable precedent and would have results exactly the opposite of what he desires. If such an Amendment were carried it would mean that a great many more urban parts of rural districts could press to be made urban districts. The premature making of urban districts out of rural districts is very undesirable from almost every point of view; from one point of view which I know, in regard to education, it is most undesirable. There will be immensely more pressure to take these urban parts out of rural districts and make them into urban districts, unless there is the elasticity proposed in this Bill in regard to these clauses. There will be also a strong tendency on the part of local authorities to urge that more extensive powers shall be given them, and

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it will be very difficult for the Minister, who will probably sympathise with the view, to oppose them.
With that explanation of the wider general ground I venture to suggest that we have to consider the noble Lord's Amendment on the merits of the particular clauses referred to in the Schedule. Ought a Minister to have power, in the urban parts of what are technically rural districts, to apply provisions dealing with the subjects of these clauses? What are they? First, there is the naming of streets. If part of a rural district is really urban, it is clear that the Minister of Health ought to have power to see that the streets are named. He ought also to have power, I think, to see that water is prevented from flowing on the footpath; to prevent the undue washing of soil into streets; to deal with projections in streets, to vary the width of the carriageway and footway upon the making up of private streets, and to require notice of intention, not to repair now but to reconstruct or alter drains. I think he ought to have power to deal with that and also with offensive trades or businesses. I do not think I need detain your Lordships longer. I hope I have shown that there is real ground for retaining elasticity in this Bill and that there is precedent behind it.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Lord for what he has said, and I should agree with him in everything, provided that all that could be done by the Minister was to apply these powers to the urban part of a rural district. But, as I understand it, they can be applied to the whole of a rural district, whether a portion of it is urban or not. As I understand that my noble friend Lord Salisbury has for once deserted me and does not intend to support me, I shall not press my Amendment, though I should like to say this to Lord Emmott.
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He said this would be a new precedent We are always creating new precedent every day and nearly always bad ones.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I will only say that I always approach this subject with a completel open mind and the convinced by the noble Lord opposite.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD EMMOTT: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Bill passed, with the Amendments, and returned to the Commons.

DISEASES OF ANIMALS BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
The MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am not going to move the adjournment of the House because it is necessary that there should be a House kept in being in order to receive the Unemployment Insurance Bill which we expect to get from another place in the course of the afternoon—about four o'clock. But that is only formal.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURTANCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
House adjourned at five minutes past four o'clock