Lords Sitting of 21 July 1925

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which appears on the Paper in regard to this Bill.
Moved, That the order made on the 2nd day of April last, "That no Private Bill brought from the Rouse of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 30th of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bill be now read 2a.—(THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill read 2a accordingly.

SOUTHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments: Further Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
BEDWELLTY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and Passed, and returned to the Commons.
NEWPORT CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
SOUTH METROPOLITAN GAS BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.

BARROW-IN-FURNESS CORPORATION BILL.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I can explain the Motion which stands upon the Paper in my name in regard to this Bill and the two Motions
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which follow in a very few sentences. It is very desirable, I think, that an inquiry should take place upon a clause that has a good deal of Parliamentary history, dealing with the subject of the supply of electrical fittings. Au opportunity is offered for an inquiry into this question by a Committee of your Lordships' House in identical clauses in this Bill and the two Bills that follow upon the Paper. The Petition—I might almost say the usual Petition—against the clause was not deposited in time and it was not thought that such an inquiry would be instituted. I am, of course, making special arrangements by which the matter will be gone into by an influential Committee of your Lordships' House. That being so, there is no objection on the part of any of the parties to this Motion, which enables the inquiry to take place. I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 93 be considered in order to its being dispensed with with respect of a Petition of the electrical engineers and electrical contractors and other ratepayers residing or carrying on business in the Borough of Barrow-in-Furness.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Leave given to present the said Petition accordingly.

BATH CORPORATION BILL.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 93 be considered in order to its being dispensed with with respect to a Petition of the electrical engineers and electrical contractors and other ratepayers residing or carrying on business in the City of Bath.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Leave given to present the said Petition accordingly.

BURNLEY CORPORATION BILL.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 93 be considered in order to its being dispensed with with respect to a Petition of the electrical engineers and electrical con-

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tractors and other ratepayers residing or carrying on business in the Borough of Burnley.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Leave given to present the said Petition accordingly.

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Brought from the Commons read 1a; and to be printed.
FRENCH PROTESTANT EPISCOPAL CHURCH OF THE SAVOY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
FIRE BRIGADE PENSIONS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
LEICESTER FIRE BRIGADE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.

  SALFORD PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Des-borough, I beg to move the Motion which appears on the Paper in regard to these Bills.
  Moved, that the Order made on the 2nd day of April last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 30th day of June next." be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 21.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bills read 2a accordingly.

COASTGUARD BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Peel.)
LORD ABERCONWAY: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Viscount, Lord Peel, whether he can give the House a little more information than he
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was able to give on the Second Reading. The Bill makes very great changes in the constitution of this old force, and all we were told on the Second Reading was that the cost, which is now about £600,000 a year, would be reduced by the operation of this Bill to about £300,000. Nothing was said as to whether that economy was to be achieved by reducing the effectiveness of the coastguard or by reducing their emoluments. At the same time the whole force is to be transferred from the Admiralty to the Board of Trade. I think the noble Viscount gave no reasons for that rather remarkable change, but when I referred to the Bill I found that so little confidence had the promoters of the Bill in the efficiency of the Board of Trade that by a later clause they provide for a re-transfer in case of national emergency to the Admiralty. Nothing is said in the Bill as to the discipline of the changed force—as to whether the members of it become civil servants subject to the ordinary rules of civil servants, or whether they remain as part of the naval forces of the country.
Another point which, perhaps, the noble Viscount will explain is this: On what system will appointments be made to the force if this Bill passes? At present appointments, I believe, are confined to naval ratings—petty officers of the Navy. Under this Bill the President of the Board, of Trade could appoint anybody—a superannuated gardener or chauffeur, or anybody without special training. Of course, one would imagine that a measure of this kind would make provision on all these points when dealing with an old and very much respected force like this. I think the public should know something about it. We associate the coastguard with old sailors—men enured to the sea—and if we are going to have anything like a general tariff smuggling might become more frequent and we should require a force with its old traditions rather than a reduced force. In order to meet the point I have put down an Amendment to Clause 1 confining the appointments to naval ranks and ratings. I understand that the view of the Board of Trade is that merchant seamen also might be appointed and that "naval ratings" is too restricted a term. Of course, so far as I ant concerned I have no objection to extending my Amendment, but I hope the noble Viscount will give us some informa-

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tion about this Bill and the reason for it, and will give us an assurance that the appointments will be made from the ranks of men accustomed to the sea, whether merchant seamen or men from the Royal Navy.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, the noble Lord has raised two or three points, and I shall be very glad to reply to them, as regards the position of these men and the general finance of the whole arrangement by which the force is handed over to the Board of Trade. I think the first point he asked me was whether the new force recruited by the Board of Trade—of coarse, the old force was recruited almost entirely from naval ratings—would become civil servants. Under the Board of Trade they are civil servants, but if an emergency arises as set out in the Bill, and they are transferred for the emergency to the Admiralty, then I understand that they will come under the Naval Discipline Act. The noble Lord seemed to think that it was some reflection upon the Board of Trade that if an emergency arose the force should be temporarily transferred to the Admiralty, but I think the purpose is quite plain, because if, unfortunately, an emergency did arise, which means, of course, the threat of war, then obviously it is wise that these men in charge of the coast should be transferred to the Admiralty, who have the general superintendence of the defence of the country. I do not think any lack of confidence in the Board of Trade is displayed.
The noble Lord also asked me one or two questions as to the expense. I did explain on the Motion for Second Reading that a sum approaching £300,000 was estimated to be saved by the transfer and dividing up of the force. The whole cost before was about £607,000. Of course, the force maintained by the Admiralty was far larger than the present one—I think over 2,000 officers and men. The new force is about 860 all told—namely, 12 inspectors, 5 district officers, l85 station officers and 659 coastguards. It is plain, of course, that there will be a saving in having a force of only 801 against the old force of 2,046. I think I stated before, that the Admiralty do retain 19 stations, with about 100 men, at a net cost of about £21,000. The whole cost, I think, is £24,000, the remainder
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being contributed by the Board of Trade. They retain these stations for the purpose of dealing with signalling and other technical matters, which can be better dealt with by those familiar with that subject under the. Admiralty. Then there is a further expenditure of 250,000 for Customs; that is to say, they have increased their cost, owing to the reduction in the coastguard, to the extent of spending £50,000 more upon the prevention of smuggling, and so on. In addition to that, there is an expenditure for this year of something like £85,000 by the Office of Works in repairing buildings and to on. Some of them, I understand, are not in very good condition. That is rather of the nature of a temporary expenditure and certainly will not be so high in the years to come.
Adding these items together—the expenditure of the Board of Trade, £175,000, Customs £50,000, Admiralty £21,000, and the Board of Works £85.000—you get the figure of £331,000 against £607,000. That is a saving of about £276,000, but the saving will be rather more in the years to come. This is an especially heavy year owing to the necessary expenditure of the Office of Works. I understand that the Board of Trade are fully confident that in the next few years the expenditure will be not more than from £4300.000 to £307,000, thereby effecting a reduction of something like £300,000. I had rather hoped that the noble Lord would have been congratulatory instead of critical over this substantial saving. If he applied a saving of 50 per cent. all through the Government services I think there would be a considerable, and almost an appreciable, reduction in the Budget.
With regard to the last point which he mentioned, I think the noble Lord has an Amendment on the subject, but perhaps I may now say a word upon it as he raises it on going into Committee. It concerns the requirement which he would like to impose on the Board of Trade of engaging for the purposes of the coastguard only naval ratings pure and simple. I am going to ask the noble Lord not to press the Amendment because the Board of Trade do not want to be bound by a statutory obligation to employ in this really civilian force for civilian purposes men of purely naval training and rating. The probability is that the great bulk of the men so

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employed will be men of naval experience. Those who have been recruited already for the force by the Board of Trade have been men not only of naval experience, but also of experience as coastguards; that is to say, a great many of the old coastguards have been taken on. But I think it would be rather difficult for the Board of Trade, which, after all, is the authority that looks after the mercantile marine, to enact by Statute that the only people who should not be eligible for this service of the coastguard should be the very people over whose interests they themselves preside. It also may quite well he that there are several cases in the North of Scotland, for example, where it may be a little more difficult to get the married men. Anyhow, the bulk of the work is looking after the mercantile marine and it does not seem unreasonable therefore that some at least of the force, if necessary, should be recruited from men who have had sea experience in the mercantile marine. I hope that my noble friend will not ask us to stereotype the tale by absolutely excluding the whole of the mercantile marine from any chance of serving in any capacity in this coastguard.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Houses in Committee accordingly:
(The EARL OF DONOTUGHMORE in the Chair.)
Clause 1 (Transfer of the coastguard to the Board of Trade):
LORD ABERCONWAY: After what the noble Viscount has said, I do not intend to move my Amendment that the coastguard should consist of "naval ranks and ratings." I should like to point out, however, that I did not wish to confine the service to the Royal Navy. My view was that the coastguard men should be seamen and I quite see the force of what the noble Viscount said about the mercantile marine, but would he be prepared to give an assurance that so far as possible it is the intention of the Board of Trade to continue to recruit the coastguard force from men who have had experience as seamen, either in the Royal Navy or the mercantile marine, and not to bring in men from outside, from civilian offices, who have had no experience of this work? After all, it is something for a seaman to look forward to, to have a house and a job on shore when he has served his
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country at sea. I think it is a great pity to deprive the seafaring men of the feeling that they would be preferred to anybody else.
VISCOUNT PEEL: I believe that is fully the intention of the Board of Trade. My noble friend is now arguing against landsmen, and I do not think there is any intention to enlist persons who are bad sailors or who know nothing about the sea. The Royal Navy and the mercantile marine will no doubt form the source from which these men will be taken.
On Question, Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.

GREENWICH HOSPITAL (DISUSED BURIAL GROUND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Stanhope.)
THE EARL of DONOUGHMORE: My
Lords, before the House actually goes into Committee there is one very small point which I think I ought to explain. Your Lordships are aware, of course, through the ordinary proceedings before your Lordships' House, that the Examiners have found in regard to this Bill that the Standing Orders do not apply. On the surface, when one first reads the Bill, one has some difficulty in understanding this decision, though I should be the last person to question it and I accept it fully. But I think I ought to explain to your Lordships that my noble friend in charge of the Bill and I have had the advantage of a talk on this subject and I can assure your Lordships that I am satisfied that there are special circumstances in this Bill differentiating it completely from Bills which looked very like it, Bills like the St. Mildred's Burial Ground Bill, which your Lordships will remember was debated earlier in the year. Therefore the Bill is following a perfectly proper course of procedure and your Lordships' House is not at all setting up a precedent which will apply to future Bills. I do not believe your Lordships will ever get a Bill in exactly the same circumstances again.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 (Power to erect buildings on leased land):
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, I have two small drafting Amendments. I understand that as this is not a Private Bill plans should not have been deposited and therefore the references to plans which appear in the Bill should be struck out. That is all that is proposed by these Amendments. I ask the leave of the House, although these Amendments have not appeared on the Paper, to move them. I have had the advantage of a consultation with the Chairman of Committees or your Lordships' House, and he agrees that these are purely drafting Amend ments. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will approve of them. The first Amendment is in Clause 1, after "agreement" to leave out" which land is shown on the deposited plans edged red." There will be a similar Amendment in the Preamble of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 2, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("(which land is shown on the deposited plans edged red)").—(Earl Stanhope.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Preamble:
EARL STANHOPE: I beg now to move the consequential Amendment in the Preamble.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, lines 20 to 25, leave out ("whereas duplicate. copies of the said plan (hereinafter referred to as the deposited plans '), describing the situation of the disused burial ground on which it is proposed to erect buildings, have been deposited at the Private Bill Office of the House of Commons and at the Admiralty: ").—(Earl Stanhope.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Preamble, as amended, agreed to

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Third Report from the Select Committee on House of Lords offices.
The Committee reported inter alia:—

1. ROYAL GALLERY.
The Lord Great Chamberlain announced to the Committee that the Earl of lveagh had offered to complete the decoration of the Royal Gallery at a cost of not less than £20,000, it being understood that the Earl of Iveagh would be anxious to undertake the whole of the scheme of decoration, but in conjunction, of course, with the Lord Great Chamberlain and the Office of Works; and also the Lord Great Chamber— lain proposed, if the Committee agreed, to odd the Lord chancellor and the Lord chairman as representing the House of Lords.
It was further understood that the scheme of decoration was to harmonise with the scheme of the War Memorial.
The Committee expressed their greats gratitude to the Earl of lveagh for his generous proposal, and are gladly taking the matter into most careful consideration with a view to making an early recommendation to the House.

2. RESIDENCE OF TEE LORD CHANCELLOR.
The Committee approved a proposal to assign Committee Room 1A in the upper corridor as a Library for the personal use of the Lord Chancellor in conjunction with the premises which he occupies at present as a residence.
It was agreed that if experience should show that serious inconvenience might result from this change, the room should be restored to use as a Committee room, and that in my case the anteroom and lavatory adjacent to the mom should not be included, but should be retained for their present use; further, that if at any time the rooms now occupied by the Lord Chancellor should cease to be the Lord Chancellor's residence, this room should revert automatically to use as a Committee room.
The Committee consider that more use might he made of the new Committee rooms D, E and F referred to in the Reports of the House of Lords Offices Committee of 16th December, 1919, and 9th August, 1921, and they recommended that more convenient access should be provided by alteration of the existing dummy bookcase door at the end of the Library corridor.
Committee Room D can be suitably fitted up with the furniture available from Committee Room 1A.
The question as to whether any extra protection of the premises of the House may be necessary as a result of these changes may be referred to the proper authorities for consideration and Settlement.

3. ANNUAL ACCOUNT OF THE FEE FUND.
The account of the Fee Fund of the House of Lords for the year ended the 31st of March, 1925, was laid before the Committee.

5. POSITION OF SHORTHAND WRITERS DURING JUDICIAL PROCEEDINGS.
The question of affording greater facilities for enabling shorthand writers appointed by the parties in appeal cases to take a note of the Judicial Proceedings in the House was considered.
It was agreed that a shorthand writer so appointed by the parties might be admitted to a place just inside the House (opposite the place of the official shorthand writer) during the Judicial Proceedings of the House subject to proper conditions to be arranged by the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.
THE EARL or DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Third Report front the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices, which is in your Lordships' hands, be now considered and adopted.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

SPECIAL ORDERS COMMITTEE.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands on the Order Paper in my name.
Moved, That the Lords following, with the Lord President, the Lord Privy Seal and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

D.Wellington.

M. Bath.

E. De La Warr.

E. Clarendon

E. Beauchamp.

E. Strafford.

E. Russell.

E. Plymouth.

V. Peel.

V. Allendale.

V. Devonport.

L. Wemyss (E. Wemyss).

L. Oranmore and Browne.

L. Kintore (K. Kintore)

L. Stanmore.

L. Desart (E. Desart).

L. Muir Mackenzie.

L. Stuart of Wortley.

L. Ernie.

L. Meston.

—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

SANDWICH PORT AND HAVEN BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, before your Lordships adjourn, may I say that I understand that the noble Earl, Lord Beauchamp, would prefer that the Committee stage of the Teachers (Superannuation) Bill should not be taken tomorrow. I do not think the Bill is controversial, but I agree that to-morrow is rather an early day after the Second Reading, and if the noble Earl presses the matter we would postpone it. There is a little difficulty about Thursday because it happens to be very inconvenient for my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill to be in his place. If the noble Earl does not think that is essential, it could be moved in his absence, and as there are no Amendments, it would not be material, and we would put the Committee stage down for Thursday. I am, of course, entirely in your Lordships' hands.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Marquess. He realises, I am sure, that it is a general principle in this House that a Bill should not be dealt with in Committee in the same week in which it has been read a second time. That was the only reason why I ventured to enter a slight caveat on this occasion. We recognise that it must be done especially at this time of year, and where it is altogether necessary we make no objection. But in this matter, especially as there are no Amendments, I do not mind which course is taken. If it is convenient we could take it on Thursday, although we should regret the absence of the noble Viscount who has charge of the Bill in your Lordships' House.
THE MARQUESS or SALISBURY: Then we will put it down for Thursday.
House adjourned at a quarter before five o'clock.