HL Deb 14 July 1925 vol 62 cc59-67

Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Report from the Select Committee.

The Committee reported as follows:— Report by the Select Committee appointed to consider the conditions under which in various Acts of Parliament it is provided that schemes or orders shall acquire or retain the force of law upon the passing of an affirmative Resolution by both Houses of Parliament, and to report whether in so far as the House of Lords is concerned any and, if so, what safeguards in the procedure under which these Resolutions are submitted is required in order to preserve adequate control by Parliament over the provisions of these schemes or orders.

"ORDERED TO REPORT:—

"That the Committee were originally appointed during the last Parliament. Owing to the Dissolution they were then unable to present a Report to the House. They have been re-appointed in the present Session, and have considered the matters referred to them.

"They are of opinion that it is desirable that a new Standing Order should be passed to the following effect:—

"1. A Standing Committee should be appointed to which all regulations, orders, schemes, etc. (called in this Report Special Orders), requiring an affirmative Resolution of the House in order to become effective should stand referred. The Committee should be called the Special Orders Committee., and every such Special Order should stand referred to the Committee so soon as it has been laid upon the Table of the House.

"2. The Special Orders Committee should take into consideration every Special Order so referred, and in considering it should have regard to:—

  1. "(i) Whether the provisions of the Special Order, if not comprised in a Departmental Order, would require to be enacted by a Public Bill.
  2. "(ii) Whether the provisions of the Special Order, if not comprised in a Departmental Order, would require to be enacted by a Private or Hybrid Bill.

"3. It should be open to any person or persons who may consider their private rights to be affected adversely by the provisions of any such Special Order which is in the nature of a Private Bill to present a Petition praying to be heard upon the merits against the same.

"Every such Petition should be presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than 3 p.m. on the fourteenth day after the Special Order has been laid upon the Table of the House.

"In the event of such period expiring during a Parliamentary Recess, it should stand extended to 3 p.m. on the third ensuing day upon which the House shall sit for public business.

"Every such Petition should stand referred to the Special Orders Committee without further order.

"4. Where the Special Order is of the nature of a Public Bill, the Special Orders Committee should consider:—

  1. "(i) Whether the provisions raise important questions of policy or principle.
  2. "(ii) How far the Special Order is founded on precedent.
  3. "(iii) Whether, haying regard to the answers to the two preceding questions and to any other relevant circumstances, the Order can be passed by the House without special attention or whether there ought to be any further inquiry before the House proceeds to a decision upon the Resolution and, if so, what form that inquiry should take, and shall report to the House accordingly.

"5. Where the Special Order is of the nature of a Private or Hybrid Bill, the Special Orders Committee should not make any Report to the House upon the same until after the limit of time for petitioning against such Special Order has expired.

"If no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against such Special Order, the Special Orders Committee should then report accordingly to the House.

"Where any Petition has been presented praying to be heard against such Special Order, the Special Orders Committee should then examine the Special Order in connection with any Petition against the Order that stands referred to the Committee, and should consider:—

  1. "(i) Whether the private rights affected are substantial.
  2. "(ii) Whether the matter has been adequately dealt with at a Departmental Inquiry.
  3. "(iii) Whether the submissions in the Petition could have been brought before a local inquiry and were not.
  4. "(iv) Whether, having regard to the answers to the preceding questions and to the findings, if any, of these inquiries and to the other circumstances of the case, there ought to be a further inquiry by a Select Committee, and should report to the House accordingly.

"6. In any case, whether a Special Order affects public or private rights, where the Committee have any doubt whether the Order is intra vires they should report to the House accordingly.

"7. No motion for an affirmative Resolution of the House in connection with any Special Order should be placed upon the Notice Paper of the House until after the Special Orders Committee has reported thereon, and in the event of Parliament being prorogued or dissolved before such report has been made, such Special Order should not again stand referred to the Special Orders Committee until it has been laid again on the Table of the House."

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE)

My Lords, these two Motions of mine, with reference to this Report and the new Standing Order, really hang together. In accordance with precedent I put them down as separate Motions, but I should suggest it would be convenient that we should consider the two together. One is to consider the Report of the Committee appointed by your Lordships and the second Motion is, if your Lordships see fit, to agree to a new Standing Order carrying out the recommendations of that Committee. I do not think I need go through the list of Orders to which they refer, though I have them in full here. But really this debate follows the debates that have taken place so recently in your Lordships' House, or if they have not taken place recently I know they are still in your Lordships' memory, that I do not think I need enlarge upon the position. I would like to pay my special tribute of thanks to my noble friend, Lord Muir Mackenzie, whose special vigilance in these matters, in the course of the progress through Parliament in Sessions gone by, of Bills foreshadowing these Orders enabled him I think, first of all, to foresee the difficulties that have arisen, and he gave full notice that they would have to be dealt with. My noble friend has proved an accurate prophet, and it is following on what he said then that I am going to say what I intend to say to-day.

On the subject of merits, I would only specially refer to the debate that happened last year, when the necessity of setting up some such system as is outlined here was made quite clear in speeches made by my noble friend opposite, and the present Leader of the House and others. The system of affirmative Resolution, in my belief, is one that has come to stay, and I hope, now it is to be extended, that it will be more and more extensively used. But that can only be, of course, if it is worked with the good will of all concerned, and, above all, if it obtains the full confidence of members of both Houses of Parliament. That can only come. about if Parliament, when it delegates powers—this, after all, is a system of delegation—is assured of having full knowledge of all that is going on under the powers that it has so delegated. I am quite sure that this system will result in saving a great deal of Parliamentary time.

Fears have been expressed, I know, that delays will result, but I need hardly point out that we have already had an example during the last fortnight of the working of this system when a very important Order—one of the most important that can possibly be conceived—was referred to a Committee under practically the same system as I am outlining here, and the whole proceedings in Committee only lasted eight days. In eight days there was a Report to your Lordships' House—a Report which my noble friend who represents the Ministry of Transport is going to take advantage of in a few moments. There is already a Ministerial pledge that none of these Orders shall he considered unless they have laid on the Table of your Lordships' House for fourteen days, and that is a system which I think is used to the best advantage. It will be a little longer than fourteen days, hut hope to see the majority of these Orders through at any rate within a period of three weeks.

I do not think I need do more than draw your Lordships' attention briefly to the new Standing Order as it is on the Paper. The first paragraph defines special Orders, and at the same time the subjects which are already dealt with by special Committees of your Lordships' House are excluded. The second paragraph sets up the new Committee, and it follows the form used in the old Standing Order, with which your Lordships have been familiar for years past. Then the third paragraph defines the duty of the Special Order Committee to divide these Special Orders into classes. The first class includes subjects kindred to those which would be enacted by a Public Bill; the second class contains subjects which would be more of the nature dealt with by a Private or Hybrid Bill. In the latter case it provides for the ordinary system under which a. Petition can be deposited. In the former case it calls on the Committee to report—this is in paragraph 5—whether there are any important matters of principle or policy involved and whether the matter is founded on precedent; whether, in fact, the Order can be passed by the House without special attention.

Coming back to the second class of subjects the system recommended is outlined, and it is a system which will bring this about. A Petition will not involve necessarily an inquiry by a Committee upstairs, but a Petition will involve a decision by a Committee of the House as to whether a further inquiry is necessary or not. That is obviously a great saving of time. I ought to say that I am indebted to Lord Merrivale for assistance in the drafting of this new Standing Order within the last few minutes, and with your Lordships' permission I desire to make an Amendment in paragraph (6) in the form which the noble and learned Lord has suggested to me. It is in paragraph (6) (ii) which reads as follows: (ii) whether the matter has been adequately dealt with at a Departmental Inquiry; The noble and learned Lord suggests to me that it should read: (ii) whether the matter has been so dealt with upon a Departmental Inquiry that further inquiry is unnecessary. I think your Lordships will see that this carries Out the intention of the Committee, and I shall ask leave to move this new Standing Order in that amended form. Then paragraph (7) calls on the Committee to report specially on the subject of intra vires, and the last paragraph is merely a matter of machinery.

I should like to say one thing which I hope your Lordships will note. It may be said that this may put difficulties in the way of a decision of these matters by the two houses of Parliament, but your Lordships will notice that in any very important matter it may be that both Houses will desire an inquiry by a Joint Committee. The system of Joint Committees is well-established and everyone understands it. It is easy by means of Messages between the two Houses to set up a Joint Committee, and nothing in this new Standing Order will exclude that in cases where it is thought appropriate.

Let me again emphasise the position. We are not asking that all these questions should again go to a Committee as in the case of Private Bills. We are asking that machinery should be set up whereby your Lordships will be able to decide whether a further inquiry is necessary or not. That really is all I have to say. I hope the system will be given a fair trial, and if we find that there are rough edges in the working then we can make any amendments that are necessary. If it is found unsuitable it can be dropped; but if it is dropped I am quite certain that the system of affirmative Resolutions cannot be extended as much as I hope it will be extended. If it is a success it will enable your Lordships to use the system more extensively and in a wider circle of subjects, and in that way result in the saving of hours of valuable Parliamentary time. I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name.

Moved, That the Report of the Select Committee be now considered and adopted.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)

EARL RUSSELL

My Lords, I am not proposing in the least to criticise or object to this proposal, I have taken a good deal of interest in these Orders which pass through your Lordships' House more or less sub silentio, but the Lord Chairman's experience is so large and his guidance of this House so wise that I am not proposing to suggest any sort of Amendment at this stage. But I confess that I am a little afraid of what Departments are apt to do by Departmental Orders, and I wish I saw the noble Lord, Lord Banbury of Southam, in his place at the moment because I think he shares my fears. The procedure that is now suggested applies only to Orders which require affirmative Resolutions, and I am not at all sure that the more dangerous Orders are riot those which pass sub silentio by being laid on the Table of the House. I should have been glad if these had been included in the ambit of this Committee, and perhaps at some future time they may be. These are the Orders which are really dangerous. Affirmative Orders can at some time or other be brought to the attention of your Lordships, but in the case of these other Orders they have only to lie on the Table of the House and become effective without our notice unless we are exceptionally vigilant. Those are, I think, Orders which require special care. So far as this procedure goes I think it is admirable and will work very well.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY)

My Lords, speaking as a member of the committee and not as a member of the Government, I should like to say that this point was under our notice, and speaking entirely for myself I should have been rather glad if I could have carried out the suggestion made by the noble Earl. However, we thought it was better to proceed by stages and that it was wise to try this procedure in the more important case of the two, and if it works well then your Lordships can, if you see fit, extend it.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE

My Lords, I now beg to move that the new Standing Order be added to the Orders of the House, subject to the Amendment I have already indicated.

Moved, That the following new Standing Order be added to the Standing Orders of the House:—

(1) In this Standing Order the expression "Special Order" means any Order in Council, departmental order, rules, regulations, scheme, or other similar instrument directed under any Act to be laid, or laid in draft, before the House, and requiring an affirmative Resolution of the House before becoming effective or being made, with the exception of (a) measures under the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919; and (b) any rules made under the Government of India Act, 1919.

(2) At the commencement of every Session a Standing Committee shall be appointed to which all Special Orders shall stand referred. The Committee shall be called the Special Orders Committee, and every Special Order shall stand referred to the Committee so soon as it has been laid upon the Table of the House.

(3) The Special Orders Committee shall take into consideration every Special Order so referred, and in considering it shall have regard to—

  1. (i)whether the provisions of the Special Order would, but for the provisions of the Act authorising the making of the Special Order, require to be enacted by a Public Bill;
  2. (ii) whether the provisions of the Special Order would, but for the provisions of the Act authorising the making of the 66 Special Order, require to be enacted by a private or Hybrid Bill.

(4) It shall be open to any person or persons to present a Petition praying to be heard upon the merits against any such Special Order as is referred to in paragraph (3) (ii) hereof who would have been entitled to petition against a Bill containing the same provisions.

Every such Petition shall be presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than 3 p.m. on the fourteenth day after the Special Order has been laid upon the Table of the House.

In the event of such period expiring during a Parliamentary Recess, it shall stand extended to 3 p.m. on the third ensuing day upon which the House shall sit for public business.

Every such Petition shall stand referred to the Special Orders Committee without further order, and in any proceedings on such a Petition, three members, including the chairman, shall form a quorum.

(5) Where the Special Order is of the nature referred to in paragraph (3) (i) hereof, the Special Orders Committee shall consider—

  1. (i)whether the provisions raise important questions of policy or principle;
  2. (ii) how far the Special Order is founded on precedent;
  3. (iii) whether, having regard to the answers to the two preceding questions and to any other relevant circumstances, the Order can be passed by the House without special attention or whether there ought to be any further inquiry before the House proceeds to a decision upon the Resolution, and, if so, what form the inquiry should take, and shall report to the House accordingly.

(6) Where the Special Order is of the nature referred to in paragraph (3) (ii) hereof, the Special Orders Committee shall not make any report to the House upon the same until after the limit of time for petitioning against such Special Order has expired.

If no Petition has been presented praying to be heard against such Special Order, the Special Orders Committee shall then report accordingly to the House.

Where any Petition has been presented praying to be heard against such Special Order, the Special Orders Committee shall then examine the Special Order in connection with any Petition against the Order that stands referred to the Committee, and shall consider—

  1. (i) whether the rights affected are substantial;
  2. (ii) whether the matter has been so dealt with at a Departmental Inquiry that further inquiry is unnecessary;
  3. (iii) whether the submissions in the Petition could have been brought before a local inquiry and were not;
  4. (iv) whether, having regard to the answers to the preceding questions and to the findings, if any, of these inquiries and to the other circumstances of the case, there ought to be a further inquiry by a Select Committee, and shall report to the House accordingly.

(7) In the case of every Special Order, where the Committee have any doubt whether the Order is intra vires they shall report to the House accordingly.

(8) No motion for an affirmative Resolution of the House in connection with any Special Order shall be placed upon the notice paper of the House until after the Special Orders Committee has reported thereon, and in the event of Parliament being prorogued or dissolved before such Report has been made, such Special Order shall not again stand referred to the Special Orders Committee until it has been laid again on the Table of the House.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)

On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.