FIRE BRIGADE PENSIONS BILL. (Hansard, 9 July 1925)

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
My Lords, the noble Lord who has moved that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill may remember that on the Second Reading I asked him a question. I do not know whether he is now in a position to give the House the information for which I asked, but I shall be very glad if he can do so.

§ LORD DESBOROUGH
My Lords, with regard to the question put to me by my noble friend, I did on the last occasion undertake, so far as I was able, to arrive at some sort of estimate of the extra expense to which the local authorities were likely to be put if this Bill passed your Lordships' House and became an Act. The whole cost under the Bill to the local authorities with regard to pensions will be less than the pensions which they already give in most instances at the present time. I do not know whether my 1158 noble friend would like to bear the calculations that have been made with regard to the question which he so properly asked. If so, I can give them; but I think I ought to add that it is very difficult to give any actual estimate of the cost of the scheme as it stands, partly because no actual data are available as to the existing rates of pay of the firemen who will benefit from the Bill, and partly because the value of the pension rights under the amended scheme has not yet been actuarially calculated since the various alterations were introduced into the Bill.
Approximate figures, however, can be given on certain assumptions. As regards the rates of pay, we may assume that the full scale of pay for firemen—that is to say, 70s. a week, rising to 90s. a week—is in operation in all cases, and, as a round figure, £200 per annum might be taken as the average. The actuarial value of the present scheme can probably be put at from twelve to fourteen per cent. of the pay. That is to say, a contribution at that percentage rate during a fireman's service, if invested at four per cent., would be sufficient on the average to meet the cost of his prospective pension. Out of this twelve to fourteen per cent. the fireman is required under the Bill to contribute five per cent., thus leaving from seven to nine per cent. to be met by the local authority from the rates. On this basis a contribution of from £14 to £18 per annum during a fireman's service would suffice to cover the cost of his pension. In a brigade of ten professional firemen the necessary contribution from the local authority would be only from £140 to £180 per annum, while the aggregate amount to cover all firemen who would benefit by the Bill—understood to be from 700 to 800, spread over a large number of local authorities—would be only £12,000 to £16,000 per annum. There are, I think, some fifty local authorities who would be affected by this Bill, and they would only have to deal with some two or three, or perhaps only one or two, men apiece, and so, if you divide the whole cost of £12,000 to £16,000 by fifty you do not impose any very large additional burden.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
I am much obliged to the noble Lord.

§ LORD DESBOROUGH
My Lords, the objection which I have to this Amendment, speaking on behalf of the Home Office, is that it might possibly, if it is carried, imperil the success of the Bill in another place, because, if it goes down 1160 to them as an amended Bill, there are certain difficulties after 11 o'clock. I quite agree, however, with my noble friend that the intention of the Bill is in no way altered, and it may be made a little bit clearer by the Amendment moved, and so I do not oppose it.