HL Deb 09 July 1925 vol 61 cc1183-6

Page 3, Clause 2, after line 45 to insert the following new subsection:— ("(6) Every person whose salary and I pension is, in accordance with the provisions of Section sixty-seven A and Section seventy-two D of this Act, not submitted to the vote of the Legislative Councils shall be deemed to be a person appointed by the Secretary of State in Council for the purposes of this section.")

THE EARL OF BIRKENHEAD moved that the Amendment made by the Standing Joint Committee be disagreed to. The noble Earl said: It is no longer my duty or, indeed, my right to offer legal advice to this House, and it has never been my habit in life to offer it gratuitously. But I am bound to make it plain that my confident opinion is that this is out of order, as being entirely outside the whole scope of the Bill, the purposes of which, in relation to Section 96 (b), to which the Committee's subsection is an Amendment, is described in the long title as being "to enable rules made under the said Act relating to the Civil Services of the Crown in India to be dispensed with or relaxed in certain cases." The object of the Committee's Amendment is obviously different. I do not really know whether your Lordships would desire me to deal with the matter on the merits, or whether those who proposed this Amendment had sufficiently considered the technical objection to it, which, I have no hesitation in putting to your Lordships, is an overwhelming one. I do not know whether the noble Lord, or any other noble Lord, can inform me whether he proposes to resist the view that technically this is out of order.

I will say a word upon the merits if it is desired that I should do so. Upon its merits it is open to considerable objection. If the Committee's first Amendment had been adopted the adoption of this further Amendment would have given many rights to the persons it affected, amongst others to the persons scheduled under the first Amendment. It would have given in the first place a right of appeal to the Governor; in the second place a right to retain all their existing and accruing rights, and to claim compensation for the loss of them; and in the third place security from dismissal by any authority other than by the Secretary of State. Perhaps it is not necessary for me to say that they already have the first under existing statutory rules in every case in respect of which an appeal lies to any authority under the appeal rules.

The Amendment is, therefore, in this respect absolutely, from any point of view, superfluous. To give the other rights on grounds which must be racial to persons not appointed by the Secretary of State, and not classified as superior, would be to open the whole question of the classification of the Services, and the distribution of control over them which has been effected on the basis of the Act of 1919. I must also be allowed to add, that to give such rights to an undefined class which might easily include a police sergeant, or at any rate some police sergeants, would be a source of very great administrative embarrassment. I have only this to add. In my judgment, for the reason I have given, the Amendment is technically inadmissible, and it is open to the charge of great inconvenience upon its merits.

I will take this opportunity of disabusing the mind of any noble Lord who thinks that I have in some way been unable to carry out the assurance. I gave that I would most carefully consider the original case made by the noble Lord in this House, in order to determine whether or not I could give him some degree of satisfaction. If he could make inquiries in my Office, he would learn that day by day and week by week I have gone into the question, seeing every one in the Office who was in the least likely to be able to afford me guidance or accurate information, and I have been in constant touch upon the same point with the Government of India, and have discussed it with the Governor-General. It is not in our power on any such general proposals as this to give the assistance desired without finding ourselves in greater embarrassment than that in which we are to-day. Such help as can be given must be given by dealing as indulgently and generously as one can with the individual cases when those individual cases present themselves. As to the noble Lord's references to my forensic advocacy, I do not desire to enter into any controversy. Every man who puts a case in this House or anywhere else with the hope and intention of persuading other people is an advocate. He may be a good advocate, or he may be a bad one, but he is equally an advocate whether his education in these matters was commenced in the Inns of Courts or not.

Moved, That the Amendment proposed by the Joint Committee on page 3, Clause 2, after line 45 be disagreed to.—(The Earl of Birkenhead.)

LORD AMPTHILL

It is not much use taking up your Lordships' time in arguing this matter, because this Amendment depended upon, and was, in fact, in a sense consequential to, the Amendment which your Lordships have already decided against, and therefore the matter is settled.

On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

There is one other Amendment which, I understand, the Secretary of State accepts, on page 3, after Clause 2, to insert the new Clause 3, as printed.