§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House de now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Raglan.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ Clause 2:
§ Providing for capital powers to statutory gas companies for electricity purposes.
§ 2. The Electricity Commissioners may also by Electricity Orders, subject after consultation in each case with the Board of Trade to such conditions, limitations and provisions (including the keeping of separate accounts) as they see fit to impose or insert, empower any statutory gas company to apply their funds, and to raise capital or borrow money from time to time for electricity purposes authorised by any such Orders or by any Act of Parliament.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, lines 10 and 11, leave out ("also by Electricity Orders") and insert ("by
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special Order under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922").—(Lord Raglan.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved, after "electricity purposes," to insert "if no other company has electricity powers in their area." The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to safeguard any powers which Parliament may have granted to an electricity company before this Bill became law. It is very important, I think, if electricity is to be developed, to secure the confidence of investors when they place their money in an electricity company authorised by Act of Parliament, and subject to certain penalties as to dividends and as to the date of redemption by a local authority, that they shall feel certain that until the redemption takes place they shall not be subjected to competition by another company whose powers have also been granted by Parliament. There have been, as your Lordships are aware, many attempts to safeguard the various public interests with regard to electricity companies. You will remember that some thirty or forty years ago electricity was stopped because the conditions were so stringent that people would not invest their money in proposed companies.
§ I do not know if my noble friend Lord Raglan is going to accept the Amendment. I gather not. I understand from the promoters that one of their reasons for not accepting the Amendment is that it is unnecessary, because no Electricity Commissioners would ever put it into force. If that is so, I see no reason why the Amendment should not be inserted in the Bill. Another reason for their objecting, I now understand, is that possibly an electricity company which has powers might not take advantage of those powers, and might not exercise them. In those circumstances it would be perfectly easy for a gas company in that area to come to Parliament, as twenty-four or twenty-five gas companies have already done, and ask for powers. It seems to me that that is a circumstance which is very unlikely to occur, and that it is far better to secure confidence amongst investors by making it certain that when a person has put his money into an undertaking authorised by an Act of Parliament, Parliament will not do something later on which will prejudice that investment. I beg to move.
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§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, June 17, after ("purposes") insert ("if no other company has electricity power in their area"). — (Lord Banbury of Southam.)
LORD RAGLANIt is not anticipated that the. Electricity Commissioners would often have to exercise powers such as those referred to by the noble Lord in moving the Amendment, but there art certain cases in which it might, be advisable to allow them to do so. Lord Banbury of Southam has just said that it is very rare for a company which hat obtained powers from Parliament to supply electricity not to exercise those powers. I am informed that it does happen. There are cases which he has not mentioned. One of them is that in some areas electricity supply companies and gas companies are not co-terminous. In those cases, if the Amendment were inserted, it would lead to difficulties. There is this further case which, I understand, has actually happened. A statutory gas company and an electricity supply company in a certain area have arranged that the gas company shall take over one part of the area and the electricity supply company another part. In such circumstances as those it is felt that the Amendment, of the noble Lord world unduly cramp the activities of the Electricity Commissioners, and that there would be no corresponding public advantage. I therefore ask the House not to accept the Amendment.
§ THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (VISCOUNT PEEL)May I say one word on this Amendment? I explained to your Lordships on the Second Reading that the Government regard this Bill with a mild benevolence rather than with any great degree of enthusiasm, because, although it may be useful in certain small cases, I do not suppose it will have a very wide effect or influence. But I shall do my best to urge the noble Lord who moved the Amendment not to press it, because, after all, if you are going to have the Bill at all it is a pity to put upon it too severe a restriction. I understand that it is not the practice of the Electricity Commissioners to invest two separate bodies with general distribution powers over the same area, and the effect of passing this Amendment would be that it would 974 prevent gas companies from applying for powers in regard to districts within a power company's area. Your Lordships will also observe that the noble Lord's Amendment is directed only against companies, and he dues not apparently mind these gas companies infringing the area of authority of the local authorities, and, obviously, there is no reason why they should be treated differently in that way.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAMI am willing to accept an Amendment to put that right if the noble Viscount will agree to adopt it.
§ VISCOUNT PEELI am quite certain my noble friend is willing to accept any Amendment that I suggest, but in spite of the obvious fair-mindedness of the noble Lord I was going to ask him not to press his Amendment, because it really meets a case that never happens.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAMI am not quite sure that I agree with my noble friend, but in the circumstances I do not press the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
Amendments moved—
Page 1, lines 17 and 15, leave out ("by any such Orders or")
Page 1, line 18, at end insert ("or any Order having the force of an Act of Parliament").—(Lord Raglan.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved to add to the clause: "Provided that the principal moneys secured by any mortgage debenture or debenture stock authorised by any such Special Order shall rank after any mortgage debenture or debenture stock of any such company existing tat the time such Order was made." The noble Lord said: This is to protect the existing debenture stock of any company which receives power to borrow further money. I understand that the noble Lord is prepared to accept this; therefore I will not say anything more about it, though it is an important Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 18, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 3:
§ As to effect of Orders.
§ 3. Any Electricity Order made under the authority of this Act shall have the same force and effect as if it were an Order made under the Electricity (Supply) Acts aforesaid.
§ LORD RAGLAN moved to leave out Clause 3. The noble Lord said: This is a purely drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, leave out Clause 3.—(Lord Raglan.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4:
§ Definition.
§ 4. The expression "statutory gas companies" means any company or person authorised to sell gas by any Act of Parliament or any Order having the force of an Act of Parliament.
§ The expression "Electricity Orders" means Special Orders granted under the authority of this Act.
§ LORD RAGLAN moved to omit from the clause "The expression 'Electricity Orders' means Special Orders granted under the authority of this Act". The noble Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, leave out lines 3 and 4.—(Lord Raglan.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clause agreed to.