Lords Sitting of 22 December 1925

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The Lord CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL.
Returned from the Commons with certain Amendments made by the Lords agreed to, without amendment, and one other disagreed to, but an Amendment proposed in lieu thereof.
RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons with certain Amendments made by the Lords agreed to, without amendment, and one other disagreed to, but an Amendment proposed in lieu thereof.
MINES (WORKING FACILITIES AND SUPPORT) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
SANDWICH PORT AND HAVEN BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
TITHE BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): My Lords, I beg to move, That the Commons Amendment in lieu of a Lords Amendment be now considered.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT TO LORDS AMENDMENT.
[The reference is to the Lords Bill No. 250.]
The Lords Amendment on page 32, line 34, was disagreed to, and the following Amendment inserted in lieu thereof:—
Clause 40, at end, insert as new subsections:—
"(2) A person convicted under the preceding subsection shall (without prejudice to the power of the Court under Section four of the Motor Car Act, 1903, to Order a longer period of disqualification) be disqualified for holding a licence for a period of twelve months from the date of the conviction, and any licence held by him shall, so long as the disqualification continues, be of no effect.
"The court shall cause particulars of any such conviction and of the resulting disqualification to be endorsed upon any licence held by the person convicted, and shall send notice of the conviction to the council by whom the licence was granted.
"(3) If a person who under this section is disqualified for holding a licence applies for or obtains a licence while he is so disqualified, he shall be guilty of an offence under the Motor Car Act, 1903, and any licence so obtained shall be of no effect.
"(4) A person who by virtue of a conviction under this section is disqualified for holding a licence or who, by virtue of an order made under Section four of the Motor Car Act, 1903, on his being convicted of an offence, is disqualified for obtaining a licence or whose licence is suspended, may, at any time after the expiration of three months from the date of the conviction, apply from time to time to the court before which he was convicted to remove the disqualification or suspension, and on any such application the court may by order, as it thinks proper, having regard to the character of the person convicted and his conduct subsequent to conviction, the nature of the offence and the other circumstances of the case, either remove the disqualification or suspension as from such date as may be specified in the order or refuse the application, and if the court order a disqualification or suspension to be removed the court shall cause particulars of the order to be endorsed on the licence, if any, held by the applicant."
"(5) In this section the expression 'licence' means a licence granted under Section three of the Motor Car Act, 1903."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the House of Commons has accepted all your Lordship' Amendments, with one exception, and that was an Amendment inserted on the proposal of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, dealing with the offence of driving a motor car while drunk. To that clause your Lordships proposed to add some words, the effect of which was that a man convicted of that offence should be disqualified to hold a licence to drive for twelve months from the date of the conviction, and there was added a proviso that, at any time after three months from the drat, of the disqualification, he might ask the justices to reconsider their decision. The other

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House has, in substance, agreed to that proposal, but in terms which have been carefully considered. They propose to leave out the words which your Lordships inserted and to add four subsections which appear to me to have, in substance, the same effect. If necessary I will read them, or give the substance of the subsections.
The first subsection provides that a person convicted under the preceding section shall be disqualified for holding a licence for a period of twelve months from the date of the conviction, and any licence held by him shall, so long as the disqualification continues, be of no effect. The Court shall cause particulars of any such conviction and of the resulting disqualification to be endorsed upon the licence, and shall send notice of the conviction to the council by whom the licence was granted. Then, by the second subsection, it is provided that if a, person who is so disqualified for holding a licence under this subsection applies for, or obtains, a licence while he is so disqualified, he shall be guilty of an offence under the Motor Car Act, 1903, and any licence so obtained shall be of no effect.
There is also a provision that any person who is convicted under this section and disqualified for holding a licence may, at any time after the expiration of three months from the date of the conviction, apply to the Court before which he was convicted to remove the disqualification or suspension, anti on any such application the Court may, by order, as it thinks proper, having regard to the character of the person convicted and his conduct subsequent to conviction, the nature of the offence, and the other circumstances of the case, either remove the disqualification or suspension as from such date as may be specified in the order, or refuse the application. I venture to think that these Amendments are really an improvement on the Amendment adopted by this House, and I beg to move that this House cloth not insist upon its Amendment but agrees with the Amendment made by the Commons.
Moved, That this House doth not insist upon its Amendment and agrees with the Amendment made by the Commons.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD CARSON: My Lords, I have certainly not risen for the purpose of
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dissenting from the Motion put from the Woolsack, but at the same time I desire to say a few words as regards the way in which we are treated in the matter of these Amendments. I take it from the noble Viscount on the Woolsack that the Amendment made by the House of Commons to our Amendment makes very little difference, but that is simply because I rely upon the Lord Chancellor I must say I think it is an extraordinary way of legislating that we are asked at the last moment to agree to certain Amendments not merely in this Bill but in another Bill which I understand will conic up afterwards—my observations apply to the two Bills—without having seen the Amendments in print, without knowing what was the reason for them, and being absolutely powerless as regards our rights to insist upon a proper consideration and a weighing in the balance of those considerations which moved us to put in our Amendments.
I must say that I had considerable sympathy with a number of members of the House of Commons who, I see, yesterday protested, as I am now protesting, against Amendments being brought before them, some of which may be very important but all of which not only deserve to be, but ought to be, scrutinised, and being passed at the very last moment. Surely some arrangement as to legislation better than the one we have at the present moment could be made, so that we might not have to hurry up these important matters at the very last moment. I spend my time in these later years of my life in the pleasant occupation, day after day, of finding out what Parliament meant by its Acts of Parliament, and anybody can see who has been as long as I was in the House of Commons, and here for some time, how many of the things arise which take us days in arguing in the judicial tribunal. Somebody suddenly proposes an Amendment, and it is hurried in and hurried up, and the putting in of a single word, "the" instead of "a," or "may" instead of "shall," or "shall" instead of "may," which nobody cares about, looks trivial on paper but may make the vastest difference in the sense of the sections which we have to apply. I do really suggest, whatever my suggestion is worth, to is Majesty's Government, now that they have a sufficient majority and have been entrusted by the people

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to carry on the business of this country for a considerable time, as I hope and expect, that it is high time to survey the whole method of legislation as between the two Houses of Parliament.
Let me make this one observation. I know that we have no very specific rules in this House, and I do not want to trespass beyond the real subject which is before the House. At the time that our present practice of hurrying up Bills to this House at the very end of the Session was instituted, this House had powers over the Financial Bills of the Government, and sometimes exercised them, and nearly always discussed the Bills. Whether for good or for evil, we have no power now over Financial Bills. Why, then, should not there be an entire reconsideration of the order of these matters in a friendly way between the two Houses? The moment the House of Commons meets in February they will begin at once in the first half of the Session to apply themselves to finance. They will leave the Bills again to come at the end of the Session up to this House and go back with Amendments to the other House and everybody will be complaining just as we are complaining now.
Why should there not be a rearrangement? Why should they not take their Bills and make the financial arrangements of the year fit in with the financial discussions that would follow? Surely as a matter of business and as a matter of common sense the work which is to come here and the Amendments which have to be made here and considered properly by the other place, ought to be matter for which the fullest time is given, so that we may all conscientiously know what we are doing. There have been Bills before your Lordships within the last few weeks, some of which ought certainly to have been referred to Select Committees, but we are always told that there is no time, with the consequence that the interest in business in this House is visibly decreasing from day to day.
Even in the short time that I have been here the number of Peers who attend in the afternoon is becoming more and more insignificant until eventually the proceedings will not be of interest to any one. And why? All because it is looked upon as a matter of form. There is plenty of ability in this House which ought to be
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availed of, and, if the House is nothing else, it ought to be a strict revising Chamber, taking the fullest time in seeing that the Bills are fully considered, both in principle and in their technical details—a matter which is not always possible in the House of Commons. I have ventured to make these few remarks because I have felt a good deal—not about this Bill particularly, but about another Bill, and I do not intend to make two speeches—that really we are not adopting the best system of legislation, and we are certainly not taking the best advantage of the intelligence which the nation possesses.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I think there is no man in your Lordships' House who has a greater right to address us upon the matter which has just been dealt with by my noble and learned friend than himself, because he combines an almost unequalled experience in both Houses of Parliament with the high post of a Law Lord, in which capacity he is able to review, as a Judge, the work which he did, or did not do, as a legislator. Therefore I am quite certain that we all listened to what he said with a great deal of attention and a great deal of interest. For my part I am only too glad that some one who is not an official should voice the extreme difficulty under which the work of the closing days of the legislative Session is carried out in your Lordships' House. No one knows it better than myself, for I have been engaged for years in trying to arrange matters between the two Houses of Parliament, sometimes in office, but very much more often in Opposition, and I can testify to the very great difficulty and the extreme unfairness, not merely to the members of your Lordships' House but to members of another place, too, of the way in which that business has to be got through. I can most sincerely say that I hope that what my noble and learned friend has said will bear fruit, and that this long-standing mischief will lead to some kind of remedy.
In the present case I gather that the House of Commons has been extremely courteous to the Lords. They have accepted in the main the Amendments which the Lords put into the Bill. Therefore there is no grievance on our part. But my noble and learned friend

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is quite right. There is no time to examine the phraseology as it ought to be examined, and it is, of course, always possible that some little word may creep in which may be a great blemish on the Act of Parliament in the long run. I hope that your Lordships will now consent to accept the Motion of my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendment to a Lords Amendment on the Rating and Valuation Bill be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendment to a Lords Amendment be now considered.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT TO LORDS AMENDMENT.
[The reference is to Lords Bill No. 255.]
The Commons disagree to the Lords Amendment to strike out subsection (8) of Clause 32 and propose to insert a new subsection as follows:—
"On the hearing of an appeal by a Committee of Quarter Sessions under this section any party to the appeal may, if the rateable value of the hereditament to which the appeal relates as appearing in the Valuation List does not exceed one hundred pounds, appear by solicitor instead of in person or by counsel."
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I wise now to move that this House does not insist on one Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed, butt agrees to the Amendment which the Commons have inserted in lieu thereof. This is an Amendment which was a matter of considerable interest to your Lordships. It raises the question as to whether solicitors should have the right of audience for the purposes of this Bill before the Court of Quarter Sessions in the cases of appeal under this Bill. As the Bill stood when it reached us from another place this provision was inserted, namely:—
"On an appeal to a Court of Quarter Sessions under this Act any party to the appeal shall be heard either in person or by counsel or solicitor."
It was urged by my noble and learned friend Lord Carson and by others, that
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that was a very great change to carry out incidentally in a Bill of this kind. It really raises the very important question of the position of the Bar at an important court like the Court of Quarter Sessions. But it was argued that we ought to amend the Bill, and the argument prevailed upon your Lordships—with a certain difference of opinion in His Majesty's Government on the subject—who struck out the words from the Bill. In that form it went back to the House of Commons.
The House of Commons have now inserted what I may most sincerely call a real compromise. It was urged on behalf of those in your Lordships' House who wished to keep the solicitors in, of whom I was one, that in the case of poor appellants it was very hard that they should be compelled to employ a barrister, who is more expensive than a solicitor, and that, especially in regard to this Bill, which might involve considerable hardship to individuals, it was only fair that they should have access to cheaper advisers. We urged, therefore, that the words should be retained. Now the Commons suggest an Amendment which seems almost exactly to cover the ground. So far as the poor appellants are concerned, they propose that solicitors should have the right of audience, but that, as regards rich appellants, the generally hitherto received rule shall be maintained.
This is the form in which they have carried out their intention:
"On the hearing of an appeal by a Committee of Quarter Sessions under this section any party to the appeal may, if the rateable value of the hereditament to which the appeal relates as appearing in the Valuation List does not exceed one hundred pounds, appear by solicitor instead of in person or by counsel."
So it is only in a case where the hereditament is valued at £100 or less that the right of audience by a solicitor has, for the first time in these cases, been conceded.
That appears to be a perfecly fair compromise and to cover the main part of the case which was put forward on the side to which I belong as well as on the side to which my noble friend upon the Woolsack belongs. I have great pleasure, therefore, in moving that your Lordships do not insist upon your Amendment but, in lieu thereof, agree with the Amendment made

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by the Commons in its place. That Amendment reads as follows:—
"On the hearing of an appeal by a Committee of Quarter Sessions under this section any party to the appeal may, if the rateable value of the hereditament to which the appeal relates as appearing in the Valuation List does not exceed one hundred pounds, appear by solicitor instead of in person or by counsel."
Moved, That this House doth not insist on its Amendment, but agrees with the Amendment made by the Commons in lieu thereof.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, in the discussion before your Lordships I took a view differing somewhat from that of my noble friend who leads the House, so may I be allowed to say that I also think this proposal is a very fair compromise? The original proposal was that in all proceedings under the Act before Quarter Sessions solicitors might appear before the Court. The effect of this Amendment is that their right to appear is confined to proceedings before the Committee under the Valuation Section of the Act and to occasions where the amount in dispute is not very great. I think that is a very fair arrangement to make, and I hope your Lordships will assent to it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills, and Measure passed according to the provisions of Section 4 of the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, received the Royal Assent:—
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2),
Circuit Courts and Criminal Procedure (Scotland),
Mining Industry (Welfare Fund),
Roads and Streets in Police Burghs (Scotland),
Government of India (Civil Services),
Workmen's Compensation,
Safeguarding of Industries (Customs Duties),
Coast Guard,
Land Settlement (Facilities) Amendment,
Criminal Justice,
Tithe,
Education (Scotland),
Rating and Valuation,
Mines (Working Facilities and Support),
Sandwich Port and Haven,
Aberdeen Corporation Order Confirmation,
Ministry of Health Provisional Order Confirmation (Bournemouth Order),
Baldovan Institution for the Treatment and Education of Defectives Order Confirmation,
Glasgow Boundaries,
Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire, and Huntingdonshire Electricity,
Diocesan Boards of Finance Measure, 1925.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

PROROGATION: HIS MAJESTY'S SPEECH.
His Majesty's most gracious Speech was delivered to both Houses of Parliament by the Lord Chancellor (in pursuance of His Majesty's Command) as followeth:—
"My Lords and Members of time House of Commons,
"The grievous loss which I and My family have sustained by the death of My beloved Mother is first in My thoughts. It has been a solace to Me in My grief to have received from all conditions and classes, from all parts of My Dominions and from all foreign countries, the touching assurances of their deep sympathy in My sorrow and the expression of their affectionate regard for One who was enthroned in the love of My people.
"I was happy to welcome home My Son, the Prince of Wales, on his recent return from his visit to South Africa, West Africa and South America. I have been deeply touched by the account which he has given Me of the warm welcome everywhere accorded him, and I am proud to think that his visit has

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served to deepen the affection which unites My people and to strengthen the bonds which link this country with the peoples of South America.
"My relations with Foreign Powers continue to be friendly.
"It was a source of great satisfaction to Me to welcome in London the distinguished Plenipotentiaries of Germany, Belgium, France, Italy, Poland and Czechoslovakia, who, on the 1st December, signed the diplomatic instruments initialled at Locarno on 16th October.
"It is My belief and My earnest hope that these instruments, by giving security to the peoples immediately concerned, will prove to be not only the foundation of a true peace between them but the beginning of a friendly co-operation which cannot fail to benefit the whole world.
"I rejoice at the part which My Government was able to play in the negotiations leading up to this happy event.
"I have given My assent to a Bill for the Confirmation of an Agreement reached between My Ministers and the Governments of the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland, to amend and supplement the Articles of Agreement of the 6th December, 1921. It is My heartfelt prayer that this measure may advance co-operation and strengthen goodwill in Ireland.
"The British Empire Exhibition at Wembley has now come to a close, and I feel that I should take this opportunity of expressing My gratitude to all those throughout My Empire who have co-operated in this great enterprise; I am sure that the increased knowledge which it has brought of the resources and activities of My people will have lasting and beneficial results.
"Further preferences on goods imported into this country from other parts of the Empire have been accorded by legislation, and other measures for the development of Empire Trade are receiving the close consideration of My Government.
"An Act has been passed to give effect to certain provisions contained in the Treaty of Commerce and Navigation with Germany, and ratifications of that Treaty have since been exchanged.
"Members of the House of Commons,
"I thank you for the provision you have made for the public service.
"My Lords and Members of the House of Commons,
"Progressive depression in the coal trade led, at the end of July, to a grave economic crisis, which threatened to result in a disastrous industrial conflict. The danger was averted by the decision to afford temporary financial assistance to the industry. This has made it possible to conduct, under My Commission, a full and impartial enquiry into the economic position of the industry. I am following the course of the enquiry with anxious interest, and I am hopeful that the task of My Commissioners will be lightened by ungrudging and singlehearted effort on the part of all concerned to find a solution for the problems of this great and vital industry.
"By the passing of the Widows', Orphans' and Old Age Contributory Pensions Act a further important stage has been reached in the process whereby the resources of the State are made available for the encouragement of thrift and self-reliance. Provision has thus been made, through insurance, against those risks which have been a source of anxiety and apprehension to so many of My people
"An Act has been passed to simplify the law of rating, to provide for greater uniformity in valuation, and to improve the local administration of these services in England and Wales.
"Acts have been passed for consolidating the laws relating to workmen's compensation in cases of accident, and to real property and conveyancing, and also for consolidating the Judicature Acts and for simplifying and amending the procedure in criminal cases.
"During the past year there has been a great increase in the number of houses built in England and Wales, and I hope that this improvement, so important to the health and well-being of My people, may continue. The housing position still gives cause for concern in Scotland where special measures have, however, been taken by My Ministers.
"Encouragement has been given to the establishment of the sugar beet industry in this country by an Act providing for a Government subsidy during a period of ten years.
"An Act has also been passed to amend the law relating to tithe rent-charge and the payment of rates thereon.
"In pursuance of the policy announced at the opening of the Session, measures have been enacted for safeguarding by means of customs duties certain industries which have been proved after enquiry to be suffering from unemployment due to exceptional foreign competition of an unfair nature.
"My assent has also been given to an Act establishing a permanent system of superannuation for teachers, to the Church of Scotland (Property and Endowments) Act, and to a measure providing for the institution of a Scottish National Library.
"In bidding you farewell I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours."
Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read.
After which The LORD CHANCELLOR said:
MY LORDS, AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS,—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's name and in obedience to His Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday, the second day of February, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-six to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Tuesday, the second day of February, One thousand nine hundred and twenty-six.
End of the First Session of the Thirty-fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the sixteenth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George V.