Lords Sitting of 7 April 1925

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of eleven members to join with the Committee appointed by this House as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of March 31.
POOLE HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
ARMY AND AIR FORCE. (ANNUAL) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
CIRCUIT COURTS AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

AIRCRAFT RESEARCH WORK.
THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the recent unfortunate aeroplane accident at Croydon aerodrome, it would not be advisable to allow a portion of the sum voted for research to be used by aeroplane constructors, under the control of the Air Ministry, for experimental research with regard to new designs, so that a great deal of progress might be made, and many of the difficulties which surround the development of new designs by aeroplane constructors might be removed?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): My Lords, I
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am obliged to the noble Duke for having postponed this Question in consequence of other urgent matters. I think he will be glad to hear that a good deal of work is being done and a good deal of money is being expended by the Government on research in the matter of aircraft. Your Lordships will realise that the deplorable accident which happened at Croydon, which is the subject-matter of my noble friend's Question, was due in the main to engine failure. As to how that engine failure arose, I do not suppose that we shall ever be quite informed. But it was due to engine failure; that is to say, there was a loss of flying speed which caused the machine to come to the ground. No doubt also there was a certain tendency in the machine to spin, which is a matter not of the engine but of the design of the plane, and no doubt the spinning contributed to the extent of the disaster. But in the main it was engine failure.
Dividing the matter into those two heads, as I say a great deal has been done, and is being done, by the Air Ministry for research in the matter of engines—both pure research and applied research. The pure research has been carried out by the Air Ministry and by the Aeronautical Research Committee. Besides that there is a great deal of experimental research. That is carried out partly in the Air Ministry's own institutions and partly by private firms. But the private firms are in these matters assisted by Government money; that is to say, when it is for the purpose of Government research the Air Ministry supplies a certain amount of money to the private firms in order to enable them to carry out these experiments, which is, of course, a perfectly reasonable and fair arrangement. I believe as large a sum as £200,000 a year is spent in research on engines alone. Then, besides this research into the engines, both pure research and experimental research, there are also final trials of machines with each engine, which are carried out by the Air Ministry.
Turning to the other half of the subject, from the engine to the machine, which is not so important in respect of the Croydon accident but still is of considerable importance, there, again, a great deal of research is being carried out, pure research and applied research; pure research especially in the control of the machine when it is running at low speeds. Your Lordships will appreciate

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the relevance of that to the particular accident of which we are speaking, because it was when the machine was running at a very low speed that the accident happened. That particular department is the subject of a great deal of investigation. There is an elaborate technical equipment, of which your Lordships are well aware, at the National Physical Laboratory, where these experiments are carried out—experiments in applied research by the means of an artificial current of air driven at a very high speed in a confined space in which the particular designs, the particular shapes of the wings and machines, are tested. That goes on now. Then there are practical tests of the machines themselves, when completed, at Farnborough. All this is in the direction of research.
The only thing of which there could be more, but we have not yet got sufficient equipment for it, is the solving of actual problems put by individual engineers to the National Physical Laboratory—problems which they want to have solved for the development of their own industry. As the House is aware, in the analagous case of the resistance power of 6hips going through the water, problems of that kind are actually solved for the public at the National Physical Laboratory; but we have not sufficient equipment at the moment to carry out fully both the Government work and work which may be submitted from private sources in the way I have described. A certain amount is done, but not as much as one would wish. I am sure that I have said enough to show your Lordships that in the matter of research a great deal is being done already, and that a large amount of money is being spent. I think I am right in saying that, in addition to the £200,000 a year which I have mentioned as being used for the purpose of research in engines, as large a sum as £350,000 a year is expended for the purpose of analagous research in the machines themselves other than the engines. My noble friend will see, therefore, that a great deal is being done.
Lastly, the Air Ministry is in correspondence with the Society of British Aircraft Constructors and a suggestion has been made that there should be an annual meeting or conference with the Aeronautical Research Committee of the Ministry, at which a programme of
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research suitable for commercial aircraft shall be settled; so that it shall be done, as it were, in collaboration with those who are interested in the industry. My noble friend will agree, I think, that, taken together, those two things show that the Air Ministry is fully alive to the importance of research and research work not merely for Government machines but for commercial machines, and that the Ministry is in communication with those in the commercial world who are interested in order that a suitable programme shall be arranged.

GAS REGULATION ACT, 1920, SPECIAL ORDER.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Peel, I beg to move the Motion which stands in his name on the Paper.
Moved, That the Draft Special Order proposed to be made by the Board of Trade under Section 10 of the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, on the application of the Gloucester Gaslight Company, which was presented on the 18th March and published, be approved.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

GERMAN REPARATIONS (RECOVERY) ACT, 1921.
THE EARL OF CLARENDON THE EARL OF CLARENDON rose to move the following Resolution—
Whereas His Majesty's Government and the German Government have agreed that the existing procedure under the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921, shall be suspended and replaced by an alternative method not involving payments by individual merchants in such a way as to be without prejudice to any right enjoyed by His Majesty's Government in respect of this Act under the Dawes plan, the London Protocol of 30th August, 1924, or otherwise:
Now, therefore, it is hereby resolved that the operation of Sections 1, 2 and 5 of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921, shall be suspended on and after the tenth day of April, nineteen

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hundred and twenty-five, until His Majesty shall revoke any Order in Council which He may be pleased to make for giving effect to this Resolution.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Resolution which I have the honour to move this afternoon in your Lordships' House is based on the provisions of Section 6 of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921. That section reads as follows:—
"If a Resolution is passed by both Houses of Parliament for the repeal or suspension of this Act, it shall be lawful for His Majesty in Council by Order to repeal or suspend the operation of this Act to such extent, and, in the case of suspension, for such period, definite or indefinite, as may be specified in the Resolution."
As your Lordships are probably aware, a Resolution similar to this is being proposed this afternoon in another place, and if this Resolution is agreed to by both Houses of Parliament an Order in Council will be issued to-morrow providing for the suspension of the levy under the Act on and after April 10, and until further notice.
There are two reasons for proposing the suspension of the sections mentioned in the Resolution upon the Paper of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921. In the first place, in connection with the negotiations for the Anglo-German Commercial Treaty, a promise was made by His Majesty's Government to the German Government to examine the possibility of revoking the old system by which a levy is made upon individual consignments of goods from Germany to this country and replacing it in this way—by a payment of twenty-six per cent, of the total value of goods remitted to this country from Germany, this amount to be calculated on a statistical basis. Secondly, the existing procedure has led to a certain amount of difficulty in so far as the Transfer Committee is concerned, inasmuch as the receipts which have been received in this country have exceeded the British share of payments under the Dawes Annuity Scheme. It therefore became necessary either to reduce the amount of the levy, which would have caused great inconvenience to trade, or to adopt an alternative method of payment under which the British receipts could be made to correspond more easily with the British share of German payments.
In the view of His Majesty's Government, there is no particular value to be placed upon the present plan provided that, in the putting into effect of a new scheme, British interests could be safeguarded to the full. In addition to that, from the trade point of view it was considered that if the complications and annoyances caused by the levy to which I have referred could be removed it would be all to the good. But the levy under the Recovery Act occupies a recognised position in that it has always been treated as a delivery in kind under the various inter-Allied Financial Agreements and is officially recognised as such not only by the Dawes Report but by the London Protocol of August 30, 1924. It was necessary, therefore, to secure not only that the British Treasury should get the same amount of money as it gets under the present plan but also that that money should be recognised as being in the same position as the money which was obtained under the levy. The British Government accordingly approached the German Government and invited them to produce a scheme which could be accepted not only by the Transfer Committee but by the Reparation Commission, and if they were willing to put that into operation the British Government pledged itself to invite Parliament to modify the existing procedure. This led to somewhat lengthy negotiations, but a draft Agreement was submitted and was agreed to by the Transfer Committee. That draft Agreement was also submitted to the Reparation Commission which approved it on the, second of this month. This Agreement has been submitted to Parliament in the form of a White Paper.
One word as to the effect of the new plan. By that the principal German exporters deliver the sterling they receive for the goods consigned to this country up to an amount to cover the British share in the Dawes annuity available for the purposes of the Recovery Act of 1921. The Reichbank collects the sterling from the German exporters, paying them on receipt and recovering from the Agent-General in due course. In addition to this the German Government have set up a special reserve fund, amounting to half a million sterling, which will be available in case any of the amounts payable by the German firms have not yet been paid in. The German Government is most anxious

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to collaborate and co-operate with the British Government in endeavouring to make this new scheme a success, and they have given His Majesty's Government an assurance that they have the collaboration also of all the great German exporting firms.
One final word. I should like to assure your Lordships that the British position and interests are amply safeguarded by this new scheme. His Majesty's Government is bound by arrangements made in connection with the Anglo-German Treaty negotiations to give this new scheme a fair trial, and the trade, we are informed, will undoubtedly welcome the abolition of a system which causes some inconvenience. It is confidently expected that the new plan will succeed. If, however, at any time defects are disclosed in its operation, it is undertaken that experts on both sides will meet to consider those defects before any reversion to the old plan is reimposed. I beg to move.
Moved, Whereas His Majesty's Government and the German Government have agreed that the existing procedure under the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921, shall be suspended and replaced by an alternative method not involving payments by individual merchants in such a way as to be without prejudice to any right enjoyed by His Majesty's Government in respect of this Act under the Dawes plan, the London Protocol of 30th August, 1924, or otherwise:
Now, therefore, it is hereby resolved that the operation of Sections 1, 2 and 5 of the German Reparation (Recovery) Act, 1921, shall be suspended on and after the tenth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, until His Majesty shall revoke any Order in Council which He may be pleased to make for giving effect to this Resolution.—(The Earl of Clarendon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
[From Minutes of April, 6.]

NOTTINGHAMSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (GUNTHORPE BRIDGE) BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
HOUSING BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
HOUSING (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
TOWN PLANNING BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
TOWN PLANNING (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

LONDON AND NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (NOTTINGHAM AND RETFORD RAILWAY) BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee that the Promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: Ordered, That the Bill be not further proceeded with.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before five o'clock.