ELECTRICITY SPECIAL ORDERS. (Hansard, 28 February 1924)

HL Deb 28 February 1924 vol 56 cc468-76 468

§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIE
My Lords, I beg to move the Motions standing in my name with regard to Special Orders made under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922. It is a very long list, seventeen in all, and I should not have put them down on the Paper had it not been that on previous occasions when there have been a number of Motions of this kind the House has thought fit to pass them en bloc. I think the House may well do so on this occasion. I have been furnished with material, which I have carefully read, and I am ready to deal in detail with each of these Motions if the House thinks fit, or to answer any objection that any noble Lord may wish to make as to any one of these Orders. But I have had no indication, nor has any indication come to the 469 Department, that any objection is taken to any one of these Orders, which have gone through the very elaborate process described in the Act, before they are brought before Parliament to receive confirmation by an affirmative vote. I beg, therefore, to move that your Lordships agree to the Motions standing in my name on the Paper.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
There are a number of Motions. Do you wish to take them en bloc, or Motion by Motion?

§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIE
The whole of them on one Motion.

§ LORD BUCKMASTER
My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord that if you accept one Motion you may as well accept the remaining sixteen, but I cannot help thinking that this does illustrate rather well the force of the objection taken, when the Electricity Bill was passing through your Lordships' House, by myself and the noble Lord who has been sitting by my side. We then said that the objection to that Bill was, among other things, that there would be no thorough investigation before Committees of this House of measures which were, in fact, Private Bills, but that they would come before us in a formal manner and be approved without adequate investigation.
Is there a single member of your Lordships' House who has the faintest idea as to what all these Motions relate, except, of course, the noble and learned Lord who has moved them, and who tells us that he is a repository of all the knowledge which anyone can desire and will be glad to unburden himself if we will only ask him questions? But what the questions are which might be asked nobody can tell, for nobody can know. As soon as I saw these Motions I approached the Table to see if I could find out what the Orders were. But they are not here. I have no doubt they could be found in some other place if one had an opportunity of going to investigate. But we have no such opportunity, and we are left in the position that we must either reject these Motions or accept them in complete ignorance of what they provide. I suppose the only possible alternative is to go in ignorance and accept the Motions.

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§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
My Lords, I should merely like to say that there is move information available than my noble and learned friend appears to think. The Electricity Commission have made a Report every year in which they set out their work and the material which they have brought together in framing these Orders. The Orders are all subject to local inquiry. They are in the Vote Office and there is copious information concerning objections made, claims put forward, and the work of the Electricity Commissioners in framing them. If we were to try to inquire into these things ourselves we should be very much worse off than if we tried to review the ordinary proceedings on a Private Bill. In the latter event the Chairman of Committees would be able to answer inquiries, but in this case the matter is so technical and so much involved in what are purely formal and local considerations that it is impossible to do otherwise. That is the reason for this procedure, which we discussed on the occasion, not of one Bill only but of two Bills, which came before this House. I remember being somewhat at issue with my noble and learned friend at that time. I was very much enamoured of those Bills, and he was not at all enamoured of them, but by a very small but sufficient majority my counsel prevailed and your Lordships passed the Rills. There was then a difference of opinion regarding the whole policy, but that was the policy ultimately adopted.

THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH
My Lords, as my noble and learned friend beside me has said, there were some of us who ventured to doubt the utility of the practice that was proposed under the Act which produces these Orders, but we were told that they would all come before Parliament, that they would be moved from the Government Bench, and that consequently we should have an opportunity of understanding them and, if necessary, of making comments upon them. But we have learnt this afternoon that these Orders are not even upon the Table. The noble Lord who moves them is good enough to say that he is provided with a great deal of information upon each of them, but it would obviously be very inconvenient to your Lordships if we were to trespass so far upon his kindness as to ask him at this hour of the evening to explain to us the seventeen Motions that 471 he has put down. If I may say so with respect, the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack seems to think that the arrangement which has been adopted and carried into effect is an advantage. I, for my part, venture to say that I see little object in having these Orders laid upon the Table of your Lordships' House if they are brought on at a late hour and moved practically en bloc without explanation and without any member of your Lordships' House knowing anything about them.

§ Moved, That the Special Order made by the Electricity Commissioners under the Electricity (Supply) Acts, 1882 to 1922 and confirmed by the Minister of Transport under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, in respect of parts of the urban district of Wantage and of the parishes of Ardington, Charlton, East Challow, East Lockinge, Grove, Letcombe Regis, West Challow, and West Lockinge, in the rural district of Wantage, all in the County of Berks, which was presented on the 15th day of January, 1924, be approved.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)