LORDS AMENDMENT. (Hansard, 6 August 1924)

§ LORD PARMOOR:
My Lords, at the beginning of the various paragraphs which follow the word " power " your Lordships introduced the words " on giving reasonable and proper notice." The other House have put in after (a) in line 14 " after giving reasonable notice." It will run therefore as follows:
"any officer so appointed shall have power after giving reasonable notice to require …"
and so so. As regards paragraph (b) attention was called to the fact that you might enter at dwelling house without reasonable notice and that is a matter which I think should be dealt with. Therefore, I am now going to propose that paragraph (b) should run in this way: —
"(b) to enter at all reasonable times any premises or place for the purpose of such inspection or for the enforcement of this Act, hut in the case of a dwelling house not without giving reasonable notice."
I hope that your Lordships will, therefore, not insist upon your Amendment, and I shall move those words, in order to carry out what, I think, your Lordships had in mind as regards- the entrance of a dwelling house.

§ LORD SUMNER:
My Lords, would the Lord President tell us, with reference to paragraph (a), where it is that his proposed Amendment would come in? The Amendment that we have made already introduces reasonable notice as prefatory to paragraphs (a), (b) and (c).

§ LORD PARMOOR:
Yes.

§ LORD SUMNER:
The noble and learned Lord did not tell us whether lie introduced his reasonable notice in paragraph (a)—which would make it only applicable to (a)—or after the word 494 "power," which would make it applicable to all three paragraphs. If he brings it in after the letter (a), so that it would read " after reasonable notice to require," then, although there is a provision for reasonable behaviour under paragraph (b), there is no provision whatever for reasonable behaviour under paragraph (c). It remains that there is to be power at any time and in any circumstances to require any worker, employer or agent to give any information, and if he does not do it there is power to fine him.

§ LORD PARMOOR:
I thought I made it clear that there has been an Amendment put in by the House of Commons after (a). Therefore, the words " after reasonable notice to require the production " refer only to (a). Then I want to move an Amendment to the Commons Amendment as regards (b), that is, to insert the words " but in case of a dwelling-house not without giving reasonable notice."

§ LORD SUMNER:
(e) is a power reasonable or unreasonable?

§ LORD PARMOOR:
There is no limitation that I propose as regards (c).

§ LORD CLINTON:
I appeal to the noble Lord to put the words in after " power," because it is most important. An unreasonable officer might require the worker to give any information at any time.

§ LORD PARMOOR:
This matter has been very carefully considered, and I am afraid I cannot go further than I have indicated.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY:
I think that we are very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the distance he has gone. Let me suggest to him that he should go a step further. What he proposes to do is to continue your Lordships' Amendment so far as paragraph (a) is concerned?

§ LORD PARMOOR:
Yes.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY:
And to insert it in a very truncated form so far as paragraph (b) is concerned?

§ LORD PARMOOR:
Yes.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY:
But he proposes to leave paragraph (c) absolutely untouched?

§ LORD PARMOOR:
Yes.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY:
Surely it is a very small step really to insist upon the Lords Amendment which would cover all three paragraphs. I do not want to make a pun, but I really think it would be a reasonable thing to do.

§ LORD PARMOOR:
If I might reply to the noble Marquess, this matter has been very carefully considered with a desire to make what seemed to be a fair adjustment. But I am bound to say that the Government cannot assent to any change in paragraph (e).

§ VISCOUNT PEEL:
Will the noble and learned Lord give us the reason why they cannot assent?

§ LORD PARMOOR:
I was just going to do so. Paragraph (c) requires any such worker, or the employer of any such worker, or any agent of the employer to give any information which it is in his power to give with respect to the employment of the worker or the wages paid to him. I will assume that an officer has reason to think that a worker has not been paid a proper minimum wage or a proper rate of wages, or whatever it is. I cannot see any reason at all why he should give any notice. All that he is asked to do is to require any such worker or employer or agent of an employer to give any information which it is in his power to give with respect to the employment of the worker and the wages paid to him. Surely you do not want to give any notice about that. It would be most inconvenient.
An officer has reason to suppose that a proper rate of wages has not been paid, and he goes and asks the worker and the . employer about it. I should have thought that was the proper way of proceeding. At any rate, I am bound to say that the view of the Minister of Agriculture is that it would be a serious interference in a question of that kind.

§ THE MARQUESS CURZON OF KEDLESTON:
My Lords, may I say a few words before the Motion is put? I am sorry 496 that the noble and learned Lord has not seen his way to accept the words that are proposed as governing (a), (b) and (c), but I realise that he has gone some considerable distance to meet us, and I am not certain that as regards paragraph (c) the question has the great importance which some of the noble Lords behind me seem disposed to attach to it. But if your Lordships look at the words you will see that they run as follows—
"Any officer so appointed shall have power—
(c) to require any such worker, or the employer of any such worker, or any agent of the employer to give any information which it is in his power to give with respect to the employment of the worker or the wages paid to him."
That leaves a considerable licence to the person who is called upon to give the information and, although it does not correspond to all that my noble friends behind me desire, it hardly seems to me worth while on our part, if I may venture to give advice, to carry the matter to the point of dissenting from the recommendations of another place on this point. I am disposed, therefore, rather reluctantly, to urge my noble friends to accept the compromise that has been offered.

§ LORD PARMOOR:
The Amendment agreed to is, as I have said, already in paragraph (a). The Amendment I have to propose is after the word " Act " in paragraph (b) to insert " but in the case of a dwelling house not without giving reasonable notice." I move that those words be therein inserted.