HL Deb 03 April 1924 vol 57 cc114-20

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5:

Interpretation.

5. In this Act— The expression "young person" means a person who is under the age of eighteen years: The expression "ship" means any sea-going ship or boat of any description which is registered in the United Kingdom as a British ship, and includes any British fishing-boat entered in the fishing-boat register.

LORD PHILLIMORE moved, after "British ship", to insert "other than tugs, dredgers, sludge vessels, barges, and other craft whose ordinary course of navigation does not extend beyond the seaward limits of the jurisdiction of the harbour or pilotage authority of the port at which such vessels are regularly employed". The noble and learned Lord said: The Amendment which I am asking your Lordships to accept has been put before me by the combined Associations of Docks and Harbour Authorities. It would have been more properly moved by Lord Devonport, but he is absent abroad. I need hardly tell you that I should not have proposed this Amendment, though it comes from a very authoritative quarter, if I had not satisfied myself that it was reasonable. The point of the matter is this. The Bill is only intended to apply to vessels that go to sea, and in Clause 5 there is a definition of the word "ship." It means "any sea-going ship or boat of any description which is registered in the United Kingdom as a British ship, and includes any British fishing boat entered in the fishing boat register." Many more years ago than I like to think of I was engaged in a trial at Bristol in which it was decided that any ship which went on any small portion of its voyage to sea was a sea-going ship.

There are a number of vessels employed by docks and harbour authorities for dredging purposes which, when their cargo is of a heavy description, such as mud and stones, have to go outside the limits of the port; they have to go to sea. It is not often that they go to sea, it is no distance that they go to sea, and none of the clauses of this Bill which apply to sea-going ships, such as the provision in Clause 3, which deals with the health of the crew, are intended to apply to this class of vessels. But, inasmuch as they do go to sea, they would fall within the provision of such a clause as Clause 3, which would be very annoying to dock and harbour authorities. No good purpose will be served by making this Bill apply to such vessels. There are other vessels of a similar description. Some corporations of maritime towns get rid of their refuse by taking it out to sea, and I submit that it is very desirable that this clause should be qualified by the words I propose to insert.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 36, after ("ship") insert the said words.—(Lord Phillimore.)

LORD PARMOOR

This is not a very important matter, though I am glad it has been raised. I appreciate the point that there is no necessity so far as the Protocol is concerned, or as regards the real purpose of this Bill, that such ships shall be included as will be in terms excluded if the Amendment of the noble and learned Lord is adopted. If he desires to press the Amendment, I shall not raise any further objection.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6:

Application of Act to British possessions.

6.—(1) The provisions of this Act shall, subject as hereinafter provided, apply to ships registered in any British possession outside the United Kingdom (other than the Dominions mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act), as they apply to ships registered in the United Kingdom:

Provided that His Majesty may, by Order in Council—

  1. (a) except any British possession from the operation of any of the said provisions, if it appears to him that those provisions are inapplicable, having regard to the special circumstances of the possession; and
  2. (b) if satisfied that the legislature of any British possession to which this section applies have by Act or Ordinance made proper provision for carrying out as respects that possession the Conventions set out in the First Schedule to this Act or any of those Conventions, direct that all the provisions of this Act, or the provisions of this Act for carrying that Convention into effect, as the case may be, shall cease to apply to that possession: and
  3. (c) make such adaptations of any of the provisions of this Act an may appear necessary to make those provisions applicable in any British possession to which they apply by virtue of this section.

(2) References in this section to British possessions include references to territories which are under His Majesty's protection.

LORD PARMOOR moved to leave out Clause 6. The noble and learned Lord said: I think it will be more convenient if I move to leave out this clause and then we can insert the proposed new clause which is on the Paper.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 6.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PARMOOR had on the Paper an Amendment to insert the following new Clause 6:— .—(1) His Majesty may by Order in Council direct that the provisions of this Act shall, subject to such modifications and adaptations to be specified in the Order, as appear to His Majesty necessary or expedient in the circumstances of the case, apply to ships registered in any British possession outside the United Kingdom, other than the Dominions mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act, as they apply-to ships registered in the United Kingdom. (2) The reference in this section to British possessions shall include a reference to territories which are under His Majesty's protection and territories in respect of which a mandate is being exercised by the Government of any part of His Majesty's Dominions, other than the Government of any of the Dominions mentioned in the said Second Schedule. (3) An Order in Council made under this section may be varied or revoked by a subsequent Order.

The noble and learned Lord said: I understand that an Amendment is to be suggested to subsection (1) of this new Clause 6. The new clause takes power to apply the Act under Orders in Council to British Possessions, but under the Bill as it originally stood the Order in Council did apply, except in the case of particular Dominions and Crown Colonies mentioned in the Second Schedule. It was thought better that the Bill should stand in the form now proposed and be applied, as may be thought necessary or expedient, to ships registered in any British Possession outside the United Kingdom, other than the Dominions mentioned in the Second Schedule, as it applies to ships registered in the United Kingdom. The noble Lord, Lord Banbury of Southam, has given me private notice that he objects to the words "and adaptations" in subsection (1). I shall wait to hear the nature of his objection. It appears to me that the words "modifications and adaptations" really suit the case. You might have either modifications or adaptations in making the Order applicable in particular cases, and therefore I move this new subsection as it stands on the Paper.

Amendment moved—

Insert the following now clause:— ("—(1) His Majesty may by Order in Council direct that the provisions of this Act shall, subject to such modifications and adaptations to be specified in the Order, as appear to His Majesty necessary or expedient in the circumstances of the case, apply to ships registered in any British possession outside the United Kingdom, other than the Dominions mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act, as they apply to ships registered in the United Kingdom."—(Lord Parmoor.)

LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, to leave out "and adaptations." The noble Lord said: I desire to leave out the words "and adaptations" because I think they are very vague. I do not know exactly what they mean, and I think it would be very difficult for a Court to decide their meaning. Your Lordships will agree that it is not wise to pass measures which are complicated and difficult to under-stand. It only gives rise to litigation and trouble in the Courts. Further, I object very strongly to the practice which has become prevalent during the last eight or ten years of passing a measure in Parliament and putting into that measure power to His Majesty in Council—that is, to the Government to alter the Bill, and to make Orders in Council without coming to Parliament for their authority. It seems to me that by doing so you deprive Parliament of the very functions for which it was instituted, and you hand over to His Majesty's Government powers which they were never meant to have. For these reasons I hope that His Majesty's Government will consent to leave out the words "and adaptations."

Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved— Leave out ("and adaptations").—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)

LORD PARMOOR

I appreciate the noble Lord's general objection, which I think he has made elsewhere on several occasions, but, the present proposal is really in an ordinary form, particularly since we are seeking to apply the Order in the way in which it is sought to be applied to particular portions of our Dominions. Here you have a measure applying certain provisions generally within the United Kingdom. You desire that the same Act should be applied, if an Order in Council is made, to our Dominions, and, in so applying it you take power to subject it to "such modifications and adaptations to be specified in the Order, as appear to His Majesty necessary or expedient," and so on. I think that the noble Lord's objection might apply equally to the word "modifications" as to the word "adaptations." I do not think that the matter would really come before the Courts, or, at least, if it did, that any difficulty would arise, for it would be for the Council to decide whether their action came within the powers which were given under the Act of Parliament. That is to say, if they thought a particular matter was a modification or adaptation, I think their decision on a point of that kind would be final. I would ask the noble Lord whether he thinks it worth while to press his Amendment?

LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM

I do think it worth while to press the Amendment, and for this reason: I propose to leave in the word "modifications," and this will permit His Majesty in Council to make such alterations in the Order, providing they do not go beyond the powers which Parliament has granted, as will apply to the particular Dominions which it is desired to include. But if you put in "and adaptations," that may mean anything. It may mean, so far as I understand it, that His Majesty in Council may extend the powers of this Bill, because the Government might say that, in order to bring in some particular Dominion, it was necessary to extend these powers. That is what I want to avoid. I think the Government might accept my proposal, because, as I have said, I leave in the word "modifications," which would enable them to adapt the Bill to the particular requirements of the Dominion which they desired to bring in, without going beyond the province of the Bill. If I receive any support, I shall certainly divide on this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment to the proposed Amendment negatived.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PARMOOR moved, after subsection (1) of the new Clause 6, to insert the following new subsection:— (2) The reference in this section to British possessions shall include a reference to territories which are under His Majesty's protection and territories in respect of which a mandate has been accepted by His Majesty, other than any such territories in respect of which the mandate is being exercised by the Government of any of the Dominions mentioned in the said Second Schedule. The noble and learned Lord said: As regards the proposed subsection (2), a drafting alteration is desired in the subsection as it appears upon the Paper. I should like to read to your Lordships the terms of the subsection now proposed. I am sorry it is not on the Paper, but it was only recently put in my hands.

It is desired that the new subsection (2) should read as follows:— (2) The reference in this section to British possessions shall include a reference to territories which are under His Majesty's protection and territories in respect of which a mandate has been accepted by His Majesty, other than any such territories in respect of which the mandate is being exercised by the Government of any of the Dominions mentioned in the said Second Schedule. I am told that this is more accurate than the words which appear on the Paper. It is certainly not intended to introduce more than a drafting alteration, but the draftsman has desired that the words should be put in this amended form.

Amendment moved— After subsection (1), insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PARMOOR moved, after subsection (2), to insert the following new subsection:— (3) An Order in Council made under this section may be varied or revoked by a subsequent Order.

Amendment moved— After subsection (2), insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Parmoor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7 agreed to.

Schedules agreed to.

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