§ VISCOUNT GAGE had given Notice to draw attention to the continued difficulties in obtaining recruits for certain branches of the Territorial Army; and to move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, in venturing to call attention to this Motion, which I do with the greatest possible deference, this being the first time that I have addressed your Lordships' House, I might, perhaps, begin by reminding your Lordships that the Territorial Army was reconstructed between the years 1919 and 1920, and that it has now attained a total strength of 75 per cent. of its establishment, which, in the circumstances, and considering the obstacles with which the reconstruction was faced, is perhaps a rather remarkable achievement.
§ Not only was there a natural reaction, following the war, against any form of military discipline, strengthened by the remote possibility of any general mobilisation, 62 but employment was very uncertain, the attitude of employers who were engaged in building up their business was, for the most part, unsympathetic, and, in addition, the Regular Army were unable to supply instructors of quite the requisite efficiency or experience. Indeed, it was only after considerable efforts that the present result was produced—efforts on the part of the authorities, on the part of the Associations and chiefly on the part of the commanding and junior officers, to whom fell, and still falls, the ultimate responsibility for raising and training these men.
§ The point which I should like to emphasise to your Lordships is that these efforts have been attended with very different results in various localities. I am informed, for instance, that in the North of England—in Durham, Northumberland and Lancashire—and throughout Scotland the majority of units are nearly up to their establishment, whereas in London and the South-East there are many units which are still below the average of 75 per cent. Nowhere is this effect more marked than at the annual trainings, where, if you take the average attendance of infantry units to represent, as I am informed it did last year represent, only 60 per cent. of the establishment, it is obvious that many of the weaker units can have attended on a basis of only half, or less than half, their proper numbers. I have the figures concerning one association with which I am connected, and they confirm this estimate.
§ I am aware that imagination is a faculty upon which frequent and severe demands are placed in the practice of field operations, but I can assure your Lordships from personal experience that, when you have to ask your imperfectly trained men to imagine, not only the whole circumstances of war, the bullets and shells of the enemy and all the cooperating arms, but, in addition, nearly three-quarters of their own numbers, it is impossible to make the instruction very illuminating except to a force of military geniuses. I am sure your Lordships will appreciate the inconvenience and expense of applying to units of such strength a schedule of training designed for entirely disproportionate establishments, as well as the demoralisation which grows up in 63 this atmosphere of unreality. Perhaps it would be well, therefore, to examine the prospects and to see if this state of affairs is likely to have any degree of permanence.
§ The general conditions are, perhaps, better, and the men are becoming more settled as employment improves. On the other hand, there has been a great economy campaign, of which the Territorial Army has borne its fair share. In 1922 very substantial cuts were made in the establishment grants to the associations, and this year's Estimates provide for further cuts, totalling in all over £500,000. Further, a new Force, the Supplementary Reserve, is being instituted, and it will undoubtedly, I believe, encroach on the recruiting of certain technical branches of the Territorial Army. I do not presume to question the wisdom or desirability of any of these decisions from a general point of view, but I may perhaps lay before your Lordships the standpoint of the junior officer who, as I previously remarked, has to carry out the double duties of recruiting and training.
§ In those units which have already established themselves on the firm foundation of efficiency and esprit de corps, owing to their approaching their proper complement, I do not think that there is much feeling, because such units are able to stand these cuts. But many officers in the other units, who are, for the most part, gentleman of very limited means and leisure, view with apprehension these acts of retrenchment, whereby proportionately increasing demands are being placed upon their own energies and pockets. It is obvious that some one has to pay for recruiting campaigns, but, although it might be thought that the associations should in these circumstances apply some of their accumulated reserves, it will be seen from examination of the figures that these reserves cannot be regarded as very reliable sources of assistance, because the position varies, for instance, between that of an association with a credit balance of nearly £40,000 and that of another association with a debit balance of nearly £3,000.
§ If I may presume to speak for some of these junior officers, I believe they feel that the present system is not quite sufficiently elastic to cope with the very divergent conditions prevailing in 64 different parts of the country. For instance, there are the special difficulties encountered by very scattered units. Again, it is possible, and even probable, that men are encouraged to join the Territorials by different inducements in different parts of the country. There are many, for example, in the South, who believe that the bounty is of no real use in attracting the kind of man that could, and should, constitute the rank and file of the Territorial Army, whereas I am informed that in Scotland the bounty is a popular institution, and that any suggestion of its removal would be regarded with disfavour. Possibly the bounty may be a matter difficult to apply on anything but a national basis, but a case can appear to be made, from purely local experience, for some measure of financial decentralisation, or else the setting up of some machinery whereby units can receive special recruiting grants if, after special investigation, they can prove themselves in need of it.
§ I feel confident that the Government, particularly a Government which contains the distinguished founder of the Territorial Army, the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, will view with sympathy the genuine desire of every territorial to place his unit on a really worthy standard, free from all suspicion of ridicule. I hope, therefore, that they may cause to be devised some steps to satisfy these very legitimate aspirations. The Territorial Force is essentially an unaggressive force. It is essentially a democratic force, and it should be a cheap force, for the officers, non-commissioned officers and men place themselves under military discipline and give up their leisure, and their holidays for a practically negligible financial reward. They not only constitute a second line of defence for the country, but provide centres where all the best men of the district can congregate and where the highest sense of civic responsibility can be fostered. I claim, therefore, that the Territorial Army is entitled to special consideration, and that a little extra attention at the present moment would be very amply repaid in the future. I beg to move.
§ THE EARL OF DARTMOUTHMy Lords, before the noble Lord opposite replies on behalf of the Government I should like to say a word from another 65 point, of view, and that is from the point of view of the Territorial Associations. Of course in all these cases there are many points of view. First of all, there is the point of view of the Treasury, which is the bogey man of us all. Then there are the point of view of the War Office, the point of view of the Territorial Associations, and the point of view of the junior officer. I should like to welcome the début of my noble friend, who has given us the view's of the junior officer from first-hand, which is a thing we do not often hear in this House.
I do not propose to follow my noble friend through all the statements which he has made, but I should like to say a word or two as representing the Territorial Associations. My noble friend has indicated that his object is the object of us all—namely, the encouragement of recruiting. In view of the economic campaign to which he has referred, what we are all aiming at is to obtain the maximum of efficiency with the minimum of expense. As he has told us counties differ. Many counties have surplus funds, and some have a deficit. It is obvious that those counties with a deficit are not likely to be able to give the same attractions to recruiting as those counties which are better supplied with funds. From our own private experience we know that during recent years it has been possible to carry on quite comfortably on an increasing overdraft, so long as our bankers did not object, but that is impossible in the case of a public body, because it has to satisfy the auditors. Therefore, those counties not supplied with funds cannot provide the necessary attractions.
But I should like to point out—and I suspect this is the answer which my noble friend will receive—that the present position of recruiting is not unsatisfactory. It is true that we have not reached our establishment, but in many counties there is much more power of selection than we used to have with the old Territorial Force. Now it is more a question of '"May we join you?" than "Will you join us?" That is what we have aimed at from the first, and it is, I think, a very satisfactory position. With regard to Sussex, the position in that County, with all its difficulties, is rather satisfactory. A very interesting statement has been issued which shows that, taking the census 66 of 1921 the male population of Sussex was 320,000, of which the serving members in 1924 were 2,514, which is considerably above the average. Of the Eastern Command, Sussex has the largest percentage of all the large counties. I have no doubt that the noble Lord will say that that is very creditable to Sussex, but is no compensation to the company officers.
I should like to deal with the system of the Council. It is more representative than it has ever been. Its meetings ate very largely attended, and its business, I will undertake to say, is more efficiently carried out than ever before. Our system is this. Every quarter we meet. We have first a meeting of the business and finance committee. The Chairman is no less distinguished a person than Sir William Bromley-Davenport. We have perhaps fifteen, or eighteen, or twenty questions before us, and all those to which the noble Lord referred may come up for consideration. When that committee has completed its work it decides what matters it will advise the Council to deal with and the Council, when it meets, forms its own decision on what the business and finance committee proposes. As a matter of principle we do not take up those questions unless they are questions that affect the movement generally, and what we have to show, as some three-fourths of these proposals involve larger expenditure, is that the increase of efficiency which we hope for will justify the increased expenditure that will be involved. It is essential, if we are to get anything, that we shall be able to satisfy the authorities on that point.
May I give one illustration? It is on a point which I think will affect the county to which I the noble Lord belongs. It is the question of the five per cent. grant for out-of-pocket expenses. In a country district where you have perhaps ten men of one company in one parish, fifteen in another, and twenty in another, obviously the company commander who has to keep in touch with them all is put to a considerable expense. We in Staffordshire have relied very considerably on that five per cent. grant. The object of the grant, which, I think, was introduced in 1919, was to ensure that young officers should not have to put their hands into their pockets, and officers who have been asked to join naturally inquire what it is going to cost them. 67 They have been told that, in view of the grant, that part of their expenses will be nothing. Therefore, when it was reduced unexpectedly to three per cent. we felt a little aggrieved. But what is the answer of the War Office? They have told us that last year they gave us a grant of £20,000, roughly, of which only £8,000 has been spent. I have no doubt, from their point of view, that they consider that they treated us very generously, because, while half that total grant has not been spent, they have not reduced the percentage by half. But it does hit counties like my own very severely.
After all, it is a question of average. It has been dealt with, I suppose, on an average, and there is an old Eastern proverb, which says that it is the average that kills. The origin of that proverb I believe was a certain river in India, on which a notice was placed that the average depth was two and a half feet, and a native family, of father, mother, and three children, trusting to that average depth, attempted to walk across, and got into a hole six foot deep, and were all drowned. In the same way, poor counties which are relying upon this particular grant are killed by the average, I can assure the noble Lord, as far as the Council are concerned, that we shall do all we possibly can to help him, but we have to be quite sure that what we recommend to the War Office is really essential. I do not know whether the noble Lord will find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in a Labour Government is more squeezable than he is under other Governments. Possibly not. But, at any rate, I am sure we wish him every luck in his career as a Territorial officer, and we hope that many of those difficulties in course of time will be removed.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (LORD THOMSON)My Lords, I am certain that, in speaking for the War Office on this particular occasion, I can say that they appreciate very highly the contributions that have been made by noble Lords opposite, and that they welcome advice and recommendations, both from junior officers like the noble Viscount, and from people like the noble Earl, Lord Dartmouth, who has such ripe experience in regard to Territorial Associations. The noble Viscount perhaps slightly exaggerated the difficulties in regard to 68 training owing to establishments being under their proper strength. I am told that the average strength was 75 per cent. during the year, and that it was very rare for establishments to be down as low as 60 per cent. As an old soldier I can say that we also as Regulars had to exercise just as great powers of imagination in regard to strengths—that 60 to 70 per cent. was quite a normal figure for us, and working with a "flagged" enemy is a more or less normal practice in the working of all armies. Of course, it is much pleasanter to have full strength, and not to have to exercise the imagination so much. No doubt it gives better training, but I do not know that the Territorial Army in this particular matter suffers any more than the regular forces of the Crown, or than the forces in any other country.
Admittedly there are many difficulties with regard to recruitment for the Territorial Force. I understand that one of the greatest difficulties is that commanding officers are becoming more particular, that they now refuse to sacrifice efficiency to mere numbers. I imagine that there will be very little disagreement with that point of view. It is far better to get a few efficient men, especially under conditions of modern warfare, than a larger number of less highly trained soldiers. I am also informed that there is a good deal still left of war-weariness, and a disinclination to accept service. But what seems to count more than anything is the fact that very few men believe that there is likely to be a call upon their patriotism at a near date in the future, and the consequence is that they take less interest in the Force. These are difficulties over which the War Office cannot exercise very much control. They are only too glad to find a way out of difficulty. I can find no substance for the attack on employers. In fact, the evidence is rather to the contrary.
In regard to the financial disbursement on the Territorial Force, both the noble Lords who spoke have referred to that. The facts, as I learn them, are these. It is perfectly true that the Estimates this year are lower than they were for last year, but last year the Estimates were prepared on the basis—which proved to be rather optimistic— that 171,000 would be the strength of the Territorial Force through added recruitment. This was not justified, 69 and the consequence, was that on the Territorial Force last year there was considerable under-spending. This year the Estimate has not been made on the same optimistic basis—if I may so put it. We are a little more pessimistic, and the consequence is that, though more money will be spent in cash, the Estimates for the year will be somewhat lower. The inflow of recruits is low, but the actual situation of the Territorial Force at the present moment shows the existence of rather more than 5,000 more men in the Force on January 1, 1924, than there were on January 1, 1923. There is also a small increase in the number of officers.
The question of the Supplementary Reserve has been referred to. That Reserve will consist only of 8,000 men, and I am sure noble Lords will agree that some such Reserve is highly necessary, in view of the very scientific forms that modern war takes, and the introduction of such weapons as tanks, and so forth. I am inclined to think that the incorporation of the Supplementary Reserve in Territorial units will tend to increase the efficiency of those units, and that that will not operate for long as a deterrent to recruiting, or indeed to the diminution of recruiting. On the whole the War Office see no real necessity for altering the system under which the Territorial Force is being run at the present time;—or, at any rate, for altering it in any drastic manner. It is working exceedingly well, in view of all the difficulties that have to be faced, when one considers that we are working at the creation, more or less, of a new sort of Force at the end of a very long and bloody war.
§ THE EARL OF DERBYMy Lords, may I, as father of the Force and as one who has been associated with it from the very commencement, say a few words on the Motion which has been submitted to your Lordships' House? While I entirely agree with my noble friend Lord Dartmouth that the Council of the Territorial Association is a most valuable body which does most valuable work in bringing what I would call the concentrated feeling of the Territorial Force to the notice of the War Office, I am extremely glad, as I am sure your Lordships are, that a young officer of the Force with the practical experience of the difficulties which 70 young officers have in their task, should have brought his case so clearly and so well before your Lordships' House this afternoon. I am sure that is the best way of attracting the attention of the country to grievances, if they can be called grievances, and it, is most helpful to those who, like myself, are chairmen of Territorial Associations and wish to do everything we can for the Force.
The noble Lord, the Secretary of State for Air, is quite right when he says that the Estimates, with which I had something to do, were framed not on a pessimistic basis but on a different basis from that of last year. Last year we had been hopeful that we might get up to full strength and had estimated accordingly. It is obvious that we are not going to do that this year, or probably for a year or two to come, and it was much better to endeavour to estimate what your expenditure was likely to be than to estimate the number of men which you hoped you might obtain. Taking it all round—I am speaking more especially for my own part of the world—there is no doubt that recruiting for the Territorial Army is quite satisfactory on the whole, and I should like to say how completely I am in agreement with what the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, said—that commanding officers at the present moment are thinking less of numbers and more of quality.
There is no doubt that attendance in camp is the surest test with regard to the efficiency of the Force, and attendance in camp is getting gradually better and better. There were enormous difficulties to be overcome at the end of the war and, as Lord Thomson has said, employers did their duty loyally by the Force. The Defence Force broke up the Territorials more even than the war, and we are only now getting over that. So far as I can see in my own local area there is nothing whatever to be despondent about with regard to the recruiting for the Territorial Force, save in one particular branch of the Service—namely, that which consists of what I will call the technical and highly-skilled artisans. There is no doubt that we have difficulty in the Territorial Force in that respect, but it is infinitesimal as compared with the difficulty there is in getting them for the Regular Army. 71 That will probably right itself in time. It is righting itself; but I feel that there is a shortage which is somewhat alarming.
When I was at the War Office, I brought two points to the attention of the Department chiefly concerned, and I should like to emphasise them again as I think they require consideration by those in authority at the War Office. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will remember that in his original scheme he gave great latitude to the Associations as to how they dealt with the money at their disposal; that is to say, if in one department you could make a big saving you were allowed to use it in another direction. In my own county, and I am sure it is the case in many other counties, we got money from various branches of our work which we used for recruiting purposes. It had a double advantage. There was elasticity. It also gave the men of big business capacity who joined our Association scope for showing their powers. That has been taken away from them rather, and now there are watertight compartments. The result is that there is no incentive to economy in some of the departments, and no incentive to these business men, who give up a great deal of their time to these Associations, to put their backs into it and try to make economies in one direction so as to have more money to spend in another. I venture to hope that this point will be borne in mind.
Another point, and one on which I speak probably more from the point of view of an Association in an urban district, is the scale of accommodation. The schedule laid down at the present moment for headquarters is too small. The men must be allowed to feel that there are in their drill halls what I may call social amenities; so that after their drill is done they can make, so to speak, a club of their drill hall, where they do their work first and enjoy themselves afterwards. In these days you must be able to give them billiard tables, proper canteens, proper mess-rooms for the sergeants, and proper dressing rooms for the officers. The scale that is laid down at the present moment for headquarters is too small to allow of that. Until that scale is enlarged—I started the consideration of it before I left the War Office and I hope it is being continued now—you will not get those social amenities which 72 I think you ought to give to the men who sacrifice so much of their leisure to preparing for any national emergency. I would conclude by thanking the noble Viscount for bringing this matter forward. I think he will realise that all those of us who, like myself, are engaged in endeavouring to strengthen and improve the Territorial Force in every way, recognise that the best way of doing this is by bringing, as he has done, all their requirements before the public eye.
VISCOUNT GAGEMy Lords, in view of what has been said I am perfectly willing to withdraw the Motion which I have made. I may, perhaps, be allowed to make this one comment. The noble Lord, Lord Thomson, quoted the attendance at camp as being TO per cent., whereas I am informed by the War Office that in the case of the infantry it was only 60 per cent. for the whole Army. From my own personal experience I know it is rather ridiculous to try to train men at strengths under 50 per cent. of what they are assumed to be.
§ LORD THOMSONMy Lords, I have made a mistake. I misunderstood the noble Viscount's figure. I meant 60 to 70 per cent. of strength; whereas, he meant of establishment, I think.
§ LORD THOMSONThat is the mistake that I made and which I now correct.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.