Lords Sitting of 3 May 1923

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

ADVERTISEMENTS REGULATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Advertisements Regulation Act, 1907, and to move that it be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Newton.)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

BRITISH POLICY IN IRAQ.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, I understand that the noble Duke opposite may be prepared to give some information to us on the subject of the Government's policy in Iraq. I would ask him whether he is in a, position to give Your Lordships' House any information on that subject, and whether any decision has lately been come to.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, by permission of the House I should like to make a statement of public interest relating to policy in Iraq. Your Lordships will remember that, the Cabinet have been discussing this matter for some time, and decisions have now been taken. Sir Percy Cox has accordingly been authorised by His Majesty's Government to make an announcement at Baghdad, the terms of which I propose to read to your Lordships. This announcement was drawn up in consultation with King Feisal and his Government, and has their cordial assent. It is being published at Baghdad to-day.
The announcement is as follows:
"It will be remembered that in the autumn of last year, after a lengthy exchange of views, it was decided between the Governments of His Britannic Majesty and His Majesty King Feisal that a Treaty of Alliance
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should be entered into between His Britannic Majesty and His Majesty the King of Iraq. This Treaty, which was signed on the 10th October, 1922, and the term of which was to be twenty years (subject to periodical revision at the desire of either party) provided for the establishment of an independent Constitutional Government in Iraq, enjoying a certain measure of advice and assistance from Great Britain of the nature and extent indicated in the text of the Treaty itself and of subsidiary Agreements which were to be made thereunder.
"Since then the Iraq Government has made great strides along the path of independent and stable existence and has been able successfully to assume administrative responsibility, and both parties being equally anxious that the commitments and responsibilities of His Majesty's Government in respect of Iraq should be terminated as soon as possible, it is considered that the period of the Treaty in its present form can conveniently be shortened. In order to obviate the in convenience of introducing amendments into the body of a Treaty already signed, it has been decided to bring about the necessary modifications by means of a protocol which, like the Treaty itself, will be subject to ratification by the Constituent Assembly.
"Accordingly a protocol has now been signed by the parties in the following terms:—
"It is understood between the High Contracting Parties that, notwithstanding the provisions of Article 18, the present Treaty shall terminate upon Iraq becoming a member of the League of Nations and in any case not later than four years from the ratification of peace with Turkey. Nothing in this Protocol shall prevent a fresh agreement from being concluded with a view to regulate the subsequent relations between the High Contracting Parties; and negotiations for that object shall be entered into between them before the expiration of the above period."
It will be noticed that under this protocol the Treaty in its present form is to terminate on the entry of Iraq into the League of Nations or in four years, whichever may be earlier.

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The position of Iraq as regards the League is that when the Treaty has been ratified His Britannic Majesty will be bound under Article 6 to use his good offices to secure the admission of Iraq to membership of the League of Nations as soon as possible. His Majesty's Government will be in a position to take this step on the fulfilment of the two following essential conditions—namely, the delimitation of the frontiers of Iraq, and the establishment of a stable government in accordance with the Organic Law. There is every reason to hope that both these conditions will be fulfilled at no distant date.
The announcement which I have made has already been made in the House of Commons and in Baghdad, to-day. Naturally, I shall not avail myself of this occasion to raise any debate upon the subject, but I hope, with your Lordships' permission, that I may take this opportunity of expressing, on behalf of the Government, our thanks to Sir Percy Cox and his advisers for the satisfactory conclusion of that Treaty and the arrangements which I have mentioned. Sir Percy is now retiring, and I hope that the arrangements which he has concluded with myself will be a worthy termination of his long and distinguished career.
VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON: My Lords, I shall not attempt to initiate any debate which, I imagine, would not be in accordance with the extent of the business before your Lordships' House this afternoon, and therefore I will not make any extended comment on the statement we have just heard. I should like, however, with your Lordships' permission, to say this. These commitments in Mesopotamia have to many of us, indeed, I think to the country at large, been a source of great anxiety for some time past. We felt that it was impossible to measure the dimensions they might assume and there seemed to be no end to them in point of time. The circumstances of our continued occupation of Mesopotamia immediately after the Armistice were unhappy. We had very great trouble with the Arabs, and I welcome especially in this announcement the statement that the arrangement now come to has, as I understand, the full consent and good will of the Arab Government itself in Mesopotamia.
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I have heard the statement of the noble Duke with a sense of great relief, now that there is a prospect that obligations, which, in the long run, I think, would not have been popular among the inhabitants of Mesopotamia itself, have a definite term fixed to them; and should the negotiations at Lausanne terminate equally happily, this arrangement with regard to Iraq and a peace with Turkey which we hope may come will really have done a good deal to clear the prospects in the Near East and to give to that part of the world a prospect of greater peace and tranquillity than it has had for a long time.

INCREASE OF RENT AND MORTGAGE INTEREST RESTRICTIONS (CON- TINUANCE) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
ESSEX COUNTY COUNCIL (BARKING BRIDGE) BILL.
Read 2a.
HOYLAKE AND WEST KIRBY GAS AND WATER BILL.
Read 2a.
WESTMINSTER CITY COUNCIL (CLEVE- LAND STREET INFIRMARY) BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE MINES DRAINAGE BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
Read 3a, and passed.

MENTAL TREATMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, public attention has recently been drawn to the question of lunacy law and administration, and early last year a conference

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consisting of the Chairmen of the Visiting Committees, medical superintendents of mental hospitals, and a number of specialists, was arranged by the Board of Control. The conference, which I attended, resulted in an interesting and illuminating discussion on this question of lunacy law. The first subject discussed was that of early treatment without certification; and the conference decided to ask the Government to obtain legislation permitting treatment without certification in institutions approved by the Board of Control. That resolution was adopted unanimously.
At present the lunacy laws may be divided into three definite parts. They deal, firstly, with the detention of lunatics so as to prevent them from injuring themselves or other people; secondly, they are devised to secure humane and proper treatment of lunatics in mental hospitals; and thirdly, to secure their property against fraud or misappropriation. The lunacy laws do not deal exhaustively with cure. Perhaps scientific knowledge of the treatment of mental disease was not sufficiently advanced in the days when the principal Act in regard to lunacy was passed to admit of this matter being usefully treated then, but the study of lunacy has advanced very considerably during the last quarter of a century.
The importance of this question of cure is realised when it is known that we have now some 120,000 certified lunatics in 172 institutions, costing six millions a year. To these are added 22,000 fresh cases every year, of whom about 32 per cent. are discharged as recovered In addition to certified lunatics we have another 150,000 persons who are feeble minded, and, in addition again, a percentage of the population (some people say as high as 10 per cent.) who are dull and backward mentally. Lastly, we have cases of neurasthenia and psycho-neurosis. All this is a serious drain on the capacity of the nation, and modern science tells us that much of it is preventable by careful watching and early treatment. A distinguished alienist told me the other day that his practice was scarcely at all with certified patients; it was mainly with young people in whom signs, or suspected signs, of mental disorder were detected.
But as the law stands at present, it is not possible, or it is, at least, very
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difficult, to provide for this treatment of incipient mental disease without certification, and very naturally, and I may say very properly, there is a strong feeling against certification in any case in which it can be avoided. The result of this feeling is that many people who may feel themselves mentally ill delay proper treatment until it is too late, the disease advances, and the incurable stage is reached, when, perhaps, if early treatment had been applied, a cure might have been effected. The chief purpose of this Bill is to provide that a patient suffering from incipient mental disorder may be received for treatment without certification. The reception and treatment of a patient in an institution without certification is a matter around which there has been some controversy, although I may say that it has 'been adopted for many years in Scotland, while in this country, under the Act of 1890, voluntary boarders have been allowed in private licensed houses.
Of course, everybody recognises how enormously important it is that no power should be given, and no loophole opened, for the improper use of provisions such as those contained in this Bill. Therefore, when we make these proposals, we surround, or endeavour to surround, the provisions with every possible safeguard and precaution against misuse. I will endeavour to enumerate the safeguards which we have introduced. First of all, the institution in which the patient is to be received must be one which is approved by the Board of Control and under frequent inspection by them. Secondly, there must be a recommendation from two doctors. And, thirdly, no patient can be admitted unless it is at his own request—a voluntary request.
But many cases of incipient mental disease are incapable of volition, and such cases very often, if taken and treated properly, are capable of complete cure. Clearly, such persons could not make the necessary voluntary request for admission into an institution, and before these patients can be admitted the recommendation of the two doctors has to be countersigned by a Justice of the Peace or a minister of religion personally acquainted with the patient but not related to him, and the person signing this document must have seen the patient and satisfied himself that he is incapable

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of volition or voluntary action at the time. A similar procedure is required in the case of minors and, of course, in addition, the consent of the parent or guardian must be obtained for the admission of a minor into one of these institutions. One of the doctors at least must be a medical man approved by the Board of Control.
The patient can come into the institution at first for a maximum period of six months which may be extended for another maximum period of six months, being one year in all. He cannot undergo this treatment for more than a year. If he is not cured when the year is over, the ordinary provisions of the existing Acts will apply, but at any time during the year he may leave the institution by giving 48 hours' notice, or he may be discharged by the superintendent, or by order of the Board of Control, which, as I have said before, will frequently inspect these institutions.
Now I come to the places which will be provided for the treatment of these incipient patients. We provide in Clause 2 (3) for county and borough councils, acting through their visiting committees, to receive patients into their own institutions. We also provide in Clause 4 that visiting committees shall be able to arrange for general hospitals to receive patients of this kind and to work in conjunction with visiting committees. If this could be done, great advantage to patients might ensue by getting them away from contact with certified cases, and it would enable all the resources of medicine, other than those provided especially for mental disease, to be at the disposal of the patient. The patient, of course, could also be received in registered hospitals, which are mostly charitable foundations or licensed houses which are otherwise known as private asylums.
Another provision of the Bill enables visiting committees to provide outpatient treatment for persons suffering from mental disorder. They would be at liberty to do this either in institutions under their own control or by arranging for it to be done in general hospitals in the same way a6 they would be empowered to arrange for in-patients. I may say that an outdoor clinic for nervous and mental cases has been established at the Radcliffe Hospital, Oxford, with the
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greatest possible success. No difference is made between nervous and mental patients. They all wait in the same hall for treatment, and they are all treated without difference or distinction. It has been found that patients and their friends are much more ready to come to a clinic of this kind than to a separate mental hospital, and altogether the results have been justified.
We also provide that visiting committees may make provision for the after-care of patients. It has been found that many patients who are discharged as cured are apt to break down again unless they are carefully and kindly looked after during the months following their discharge. This question of after-care, therefore, is of the utmost importance if we wish to make permanent the cures effected 'in our mental hospitals; and it is to be hoped that the visiting committee will give their most careful attention to the provision of this service.
I said at the opening of my remarks that progress in knowledge of mental disease had advanced greatly during the last quarter of a century. But it is still an unfortunate fact that many of the causes of mental illness are largely unknown at present. If mental disease can be systematically explored we may assume that much progress might be made in the prevention and cure of this disease. In Clause 2, subsection (5), provision is made for more systematic research and more opportunity is given for the expenditure of public money upon this research. Co-ordination, which, I think, is a most important point, is provided for by requiring that the researches should be undertaken with the approval of the Board of Control.
Now I come to that part of the Bill which deals with the question of visiting committees. In this measure we endeavour to extend the functions of the visiting committees to enable them to carry out their present duty more efficiently and also to cope with the new duties which will be placed upon them by this Bill. Firstly, we provide that a proportion, not exceeding one-third, may be persons who are not members of the Council. This is a principle which has been adopted in regard to education committees, maternity and child welfare committees, and so forth, and it is

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designed to enable the Committee to co-opt expert opinion among their members, and also to get the services of people who may not be members of the Council but who are willing to give their whole time or a large part of their time to the work of the Committee. Then we provide that two at least of each visiting committee shall be women, and we give the committees power to carry out their duties jointly with other authorities. The expenses of visiting committees are to be defrayed by the local authorities within the county or borough within whose area they operate.
I should like to draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that the maintenance of cases which come in for treatment for incipient disease has no connexion with the Poor Law. There is no pauper taint. The local authority can either treat them or may make arrangements for their maintenance, the cost falling upon the general fund and not on the guardians of the union in which the patient happens to reside.
Lastly, I come to the question of inspection. The Mental Deficiency Act of 1913 greatly increased the amount of visiting and raised the number of Commissioners to eleven. At present there are seven Commissioners, one a woman who, being neither a lawyer nor a doctor, cannot pay statutory visits. The existing staff cannot cope with the growing work and, of course, this Bill will probably throw extra inspection upon the Board. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that it is quite out of the question to reduce the number of statutory visits, but a great many of these statutory visits and local work which now has to be done by Commissioners could, in the view of the Ministry of Health, be efficiently done by inspectors if the law allowed this, and so the most economical and practical method would seem to be to limit the number of Commissioners to eight and allow the visits and local work to be carried out by inspectors instead of Commissioners, where this can properly be clone. This is provided for in Clause 3, subsection 2, and, of course, it will require a sufficient number of inspectors to be appointed to enable the work to be carefully and efficiently carried out. We think that is the best method for providing for the proper inspection which will be required
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under this measure and is now required under the existing Acts. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD BUCKMASTER: My Lords, with the main purpose of this Bill I expect all your Lordships will agree. There is no doubt that up to the present tune much needless suffering has been caused by allowing people in an incipient state of insanity to remain entirely without control. Doctors have been unable to certify until the disease has so shaped itself that cure, if it be ever accomplished, is often accomplished only after a prolonged period of treatment. Medical men are, I believe, in agreement that if it were possible far them to secure control of mental disorder at an early stage in its development there would be far greater hope of recovery, and far less pain and suffering to the patient and to hip or her relations. I, therefore, feel slue that your Lordships will be glad that an attempt has been made to deal with this grievous—as I think most grievous—affliction that God has placed upon us, in a humane manner at the earliest possible moment.
I am not certain, however, that the provisions of the Bill will enable the full beneficent effects of that work to be carried out, for this reason. Anyone who has had even the smallest experience of contact with people suffering from mental disorder know that, especially in the earlier stages of the illness, there is a peculiar, almost insane, resistance to any form of treatment and control. Consequently, I shall be surprised if, when people have been recommended and have been placed under control by virtue of this Bill, the forty-eight hours' notice is not given very speedily, and the whole benefit to be derived from this measure broken down. In other wards, I think that under proper safeguards, and with proper control, there ought to be greater power given than is given by this Bill for the treatment of these cases. After all, if persons are suffering from infectious disease you have power to take them away and isolate them in the interests of the general welfare of the community. I cannot help thinking that somewhat similar power might be given here.
I know, of course, the risk that every one fears, which is that such powers might

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be abused. The old fear of what happens in lunatic asylums still, no doubt, remains, and it certainly is a very dangerous thing to give power over the liberty of any person. Still, I merely mention that I fear very much that the real benefit of this Bill will not be reaped by reason of the fact that these unfortunate people, who have to be treated will be unwilling to submit themselves for any long period of time to the control and discipline which will, no doubt, be necessary if they are to be restored to health.
There is one thing further I wish to say. It is not directly germane to the purposes of this Bill, but it is germane to the subject with which this Bill deals, and it may not be out of place if I mention it now. A matter that has struck every thinking man in recent years is the appalling fact that the reproduction of our population is taking place in inverse ratio to the value of the people who are reproduced, and, beyond all others, the people who are weak-minded reproduce their species at a rate that can only fill one with alarm. Every one knows that insanity may, roughly, be divided into three or four classes. There is the person who is mad through the ineradicable taint of inherited weakness. There is the person who is mad by reason of a penalty incurred for his own misdeeds—a penalty which, I often think, is entirely out of proportion to the offence. Finally, there is the person who is mad by reason of accident occurring either at home or during the recent war in an act of heroism on the battlefield.
With regard to the first person, who, beyond all others, is suffering from the taint of lunacy, if he is left uncontrolled, as our law at present stands, there is no means whatever of preventing him from reproducing his species to any extent that he likes. Further, our Marriage Laws are such that if he gets into an asylum and returns home, his wife will be compelled to submit herself to him, even though she knows that the result will be that she will have to face the catastrophe of being the mother of a child whose intellect, from its birth to its death, she will watch with the gravest anxiety. I believe the time has come when the whole question of this perpetuation of the utterly unfit, mentally weak and unsound should be the subject of full investigation, and I wish the Government had had
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the courage to appoint a Commission to consider lunacy not merely in relation to this little matter of a temporary cure, but with regard to the wider and broader principle of seeing whether it is not possible by some wise and humane means to extirpate from our race the curse under which, if we do not conquer it, we shall ourselves be ultimately destroyed.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WORCESTER: My Lords, I do not think that the noble and learned Lord who has just addressed you was quite so encouraging to this Bill as in his heart he meant to be. I can hardly conceive of a man who, when a Bill of this kind comes before him, would not say: "It may do some good and, for God's sake, go on and try. It may be that in course of time you will have to alter the details of your plan a little here and there, but in the meantime you are doing something to bring mercy and hope of recovery to what is the most pitiable section of our great community."
A good deal of what the noble and learned Lord has said is cut away by the fact—of which this Bill is an excellent instance—that we have at last got rid of the narrow and unhappy associations which cluster round the word "asylum." We are going to put in its place the expression "mental hospital." I do not know by what trick of history or language the word asylum, which has, of course, sacred and ecclesiastical associations of a peculiar kind, has come to be narrowed down to a place in which you segregate those for whom, up to a while ago, you had practically no hope of doing anything. This excellent Bill is an instance of the fact that we are beginning to realise that diseases of the mind cannot be separated from diseases of the body in their study, in their treatment and in their cure. Therefore, the kind of dread, to which the noble and learned Lord rightly referred, which is in the mind of every person in danger of being treated in such an institution, will gradually disappear when you get it into his mind that he is not going to what has hitherto been called an asylum, but into a hospital, a place of cure.
My right rev. Brethren and I are accustomed to have dealings with these great and glorious institutions. It occasionally happens to them, and to me, to minister in the great chapels of these mental hospitals, to talk to the patients

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as if they were an ordinary congregation. It is one of the most hopeful things that a man could possibly do, and the chaplains of these institutions, who are not any more than I am technical students of these matters, are doing a very wonderful work. The man who started the After-Care Society referred to by the noble Earl who introduced the Bill was himself chaplain of a great mental hospital in London.
But I want to say something on behalf of the medical staff of these homes. There is a great danger, if you do not exercise care, that you will take all the heart out of some of the very best of them. Reference has already been made to the general opinion, that which may be called the daily newspaper opinion, of a mental hospital as a horrible place of unspeakable cruelty. But think of the man who is at the head of such an institution and who is liable, with his entire staff, to be attacked in the most grievous way either by a patient or by people acting, as they suppose, in the patient's behalf. We have not yet, so far as I can gather, done anything like all that we could do to protect people who are giving their lives to the study of these cases. They certainly are not going to make great fortunes out of it. If they had put into an ordinary practice anything like the ability and zeal which they are devoting to the work on which they are engaged they would unquestionably have been rich men in a comparatively short time. But they gave themselves to this work, and if there is an effort, particularly in certain sections of the Press, to cover them with abuse on the ground that they are monsters of cruelty, there ought to be some better system to protect them than at present exists.
On a slightly lower scale may I refer to something which comes within the speech made by the noble Earl, when dealing with the question of expense. You put at the head of one of these great institutions such a man as I have described—keen, earnest, capable, always at his job. It is part of his duty every day, so far as he can, to see those who are committed to his care, and, as has been already explained, he has to observe not merely the state of their minds but also their physical condition. He is very often entirely alone in that job. Perhaps he has no assistant at all, and when he has concluded his round he has to make his
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notes. I think I am right in saying that there are not a few cases in which assistance in that respect has had to be cut off from met, who are doing this splendid work. I do not suppose that any of your Lordships would listen to a word against economy, and yet, if there be an exception to be found, if there be a single ease in which we should all of us be glad that just a little more should be spent on staff in order that a medical officer may be relieved of some of the drudgery and may have his wits quickened by relief from that kind of work, we should be willing to say that economy can go a little too far. I earnestly hope that whatever defects of detail there may be in this measure your Lordships' House will thankfully accept it as a rather wonderful instalment of fresh hope for those who have had been suffering in these sad ways and who hitherto have had no hope at all.
EARL RUSSELL: My Lords, I desire 10 congratulate the noble Earl and the Government upon the introduction of this Bill, and I hope we may be assured that he will spare no effort to press it forward, not only here, where there will, I think, be no difficulty, but in another place, and to ensure its being placed upon the Statute Book. Before I come to the main features of the Bill I should like to say a word or two about some of the minor, but by no means unimportant, provisions which it contains.
Amongst these, almost the most important, to my mind, is that which allows—I think I am right in saying for the first time—of the expenditure of public funds upon after-care. That used to be a matter of private charitable enterprise, so far as it existed at all. During the time when I had much to do with these institutions on the London County Council, Sir John McDougall, whose devotion was unflagging and whose interest in these unfortunate people never ceased, explained to me a great deal of the important work that was done by after-care associations, which, I believe, at that time were entirely voluntary. I entirely agree with those who have promoted this Bill that after-care is in itself as important as treatment, because if you discharge a person who has been cured, or apparently cured, after the rest, the attention and the seclusion of an asylum, and he is plunged again into those difficulties and those distractions which

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have upset his mind before, it may very well be that his restored equilibrium will be again destroyed, and you may have a case for certification once more upon your hands. I do not think too much importance can be attached to these aftercare associations, and I am very glad to think that they are to be allowed to receive public money, to be put upon an official basis, and to exist all over the country.
On that point I had intended to say a word on exactly the same lines as that which was said by the noble and learned Lord before me on the question of the procreation of insane persons and the addition of fresh cases of insanity to the population. In my comparatively few years at Hanwell Asylum I recollect one particular case in which a woman was readmitted three times, if not four, having each time given birth to a child to her husband during the time when she was at liberty. I think I should hardly exaggerate if I said that there could scarcely have been a member then serving on the Asylums Committee of the London County Council who would not have been strongly in favour of the sterilisation of such people, and who did not know from constant experience the terrible evils to which it led, the enormous number of cases, the history of which showed hereditary taint, and also, unfortunately, the prolific character of the breeding in these cases.
I recognise that this matter is outside the scope of the present Bill, which is comparatively modest, but I should like to add my humble views to those of the noble and learned Lord on the Front Bench in suggesting to the Government that the time has almost come when this question might be the subject of examination by a special Commission appointed for the purpose, or by some other suitable body. I do not think it can be suggested that we are showing any kindness to those who are likely to be born under these conditions, and it certainly cannot be suggested that we are showing any kindness or forethought for the taxpayer and the ratepayer who have to maintain them. Further, we are adding to the insane population, and also very often, through defective mental control, to the criminal population of the country. I think the question is one of very great importance, and that it has to be dealt with.
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Under this Bill there is also a provision, under the last subsection of Clause 2, allowing for research to be undertaken. In these days we all recognise that what I may call empirical methods are not really the best method's for arriving at the truth on scientific matters; that directed, controlled and continuous scientific research is the only way in which we can arrive at true conclusions, and that this can be done only by the expenditure of a certain amount of time and money. We can all recognise in this matter, as is now recognised by people in business matters, that this time and this money will be well expended, and will produce an ample return in the results which it gives in the way of increased ability both for prevention and treatment. Something in the way of research was, of course, done by the London County Council. Exactly how the money was provided for it I should not like to say, but I dare say it had to be done by a side wind. I think it is very important that these methods of research should be established.
Now I come to what are really the principal clauses of this measure—namely, Clauses 4 and 5. They deal with a subject in which I have been interested for a great many years. Some years ago I ventured to bring a Bill into your Lordships' House to deal with it, but I made no attempt to carry any further. One of the best known and ablest alienists made a comparison to me which I have always thought was a very just one, and which I should like to repeat to your Lordships, as to the early treatment of mental disorder. He said that under the present system, unless the patient is willing to be treated, you cannot treat him; and even if he is willing to be treated, you cannot treat him properly. If a doctor takes him into his house and keeps him under observation, he is, as the noble and learned Lord is well aware, exposed at any moment to the risk of prosecution under a section of the Lunacy Act for harbouring an uncertified lunatic who ought to be certified, although vigorous early treatment is so important that without. it treatment largely fails, particularly among the poor and less well cared for.
My friend the alienist put it to me in this way. He said: "Our treatment in lunacy is just about as sensible as if we

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did not begin to treat a patient for scarlet fever until he was in the peeling stage." I think your Lordships will recognise that that is a very just analogy, and I think that, so far as this Bill provides that we shall be able to deal with mental disorder in the incipient stage, and, if possible, prevent its ever reaching the certifiable stage, it will do a great deal of good.
I share the views of the noble and learned Lord below me that these provisions really are very largely nullified by the forty-eight hours' notice under Clause 5. I recognise that a delay of forty-eight hours may prevent a woman who is in a temporary fit of hysterics, or a man who is in a temporary fit of passion, from giving a notice which they might perhaps be inclined to withdraw before the forty-eight hours were over. But it is perfectly true that people in this early stage are often very impatient of restraint., and if they are to have liberty to discharge themselves even when the medical superintendent does not think they should be discharged, and when the Board of Control, if it were consulted, would not think they should be discharged, it seems to me that the benefits of the treatment will very largely be lost. No doubt, the policy of the framers of the Bill was dictated by fear of that very large and uninformed public opinion which still thinks that you are apt to throw people into dungeons filled with straw when you commit them to lunatic asylums and that atrocities and cruelties take place. I think it would be well to make some effort to inform public opinion a little more on the matter. In this House I am sure that the noble Earl will not meet with that feeling, and I think it is possible to combat it with argument in another place.
I suggest that the noble Earl should at any rate, if he is not prepared to meet me, extend this provision by making the discharge subject to an order of the Board of Control. They are a public body and can have no pecuniary interest and no personal interest in the detention of any person who should not be detained. I scarcely think that even the most apprehensive member of the public who was still in his senses would think it likely that the Board of Control either would or could sanction the detention of a
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person who ought properly to be at liberty. I hope that the noble Earl will take that into consideration before the next stage of the Bill.
There is another point, quite a small one, to which I should like to call attention before I sit down. It is as to the certificate which is to be given in regard to these people. The certificate, in addition to the medical information, has to be signed either by a Justice of the Peace or by a minister of religion. The expression "minister of religion" is very vague and undefined, and would include, I imagine, a captain in the Salvation Army or an itinerant preacher. It seems to me that if you include anybody besides a Justice of the Peace it would be more reasonable to include a householder, because I do not see that any additional protection is given by these very large words. I would suggest that, seeing there is an ample supply of Justices of the Peace, who, we understand, in these days are very active in the performance of their duties, it would be advisable to leave these words out. I scarcely see how the addition of the words "minister of religion" adds to the security.
It also seems to me that there is a little difficulty in the form of the certificate, because the certificate says that the person signing has a personal knowledge of the patient. I do not know whether a Justice of the Peace is expected to say that he has a personal knowledge of a patient who has been brought before him for the first time. It may be that that is the reason the minister of religion is introduced, but there may be patients of whom neither a Justice of the Peace nor a minister of religion has any special personal knowledge. I think we all recollect —I forget whether it was in a book or a play—a character the height of whose ambition was to be the friend of a fully-licensed publican, and it may be that there are some people who have not attained the personal acquaintance of either a Justice of the Peace or a minister of religion. Although the provisions of the Bill may do some good even with the 48 hours' provision, I think that it may be necessary to strengthen that provision a little.
Then I should like to say something upon the administrative point, of view mentioned by the noble Earl—namely, upon whether this treatment should be separated from the existing lunacy

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system. Upon that point I am entirely in agreement with the policy of the Bill. I think it is all a matter of health. We know that many a breakdown is due to bad health, arising from malnutrition or overwork, and these cases should clearly all be under the same authority, because, undoubtedly, a certain percentage of these voluntary six months' cases will prove proper cases to be certified before the end of the six months, and to introduce two authorities would be to cause confusion. There is a great deal in the belief that to place the cases under two authorities would be to divide them into the hopeless and the curable. That, I think, would be very inconvenient. It would be far better that all these cases should be kept in one hand, and I hope that the noble Earl will consider, between now and the next stage, the suggestion which I have urged upon him and will then tell us whether anything can be done on those lines.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I am grateful indeed to noble Lords who have spoken and for the, reception which the Bill has received from the House. I trust that its passage may be as smooth in another place as it seems likely to be here. The noble Lord who has just sat down, and also the noble and learned Lord on the Front Bench opposite, made one suggestion which would, of course, go a very great deal further than the Bill proposes to do, and that is to introduce compulsion in retaining a patient in an institution longer than forty-eight hours. This would be a very considerable step forward from what is proposed in the Bill, and I she old cc t like to say anything about it at present. I hope that the Bill will receive very careful consideration from those interested in the subject in this House, and also outside the House, and perhaps when we conic to the Committee stage noble Lords will put down Amendments. Of course, I cannot say that the Government will adopt what has been suggested, because it introduces a new principle, but they will be willing to consider any proposal which may be made. Therefore, I suggest that the Committee stage might be delayed, in order to give time for the putting down of Amendments.
LORD BUCKMASTER: Will the noble Earl tell me whether he will consult with
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the Government upon the possibility of appointing a committee to consider the whole question of the reproduction of the mentally unfit?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY): If the noble and learned Lard will make a suggestion of course the Government will consider it, with any other suggestion coming from that Bench, although I think that this is a matter which has nothing whatever to do with the Bill, as the noble and learned Lord will understand.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

TOWN COUNCILS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAE): My Lords, this is a simple measure designed to effect improvements in the machinery of town council elections, and it is brought forward at the instance of the larger burghs to avoid inconvenience and expense. The first clause gives four more days for the arrangements for the election. The work is heavy and is clone under extreme pressure. This clause applies altogether to the five largest burghs but may be adopted by other burghs. Clause 2 enables the returning officer of a burgh divided into wards to appoint deputies, bringing the law into line with that applying to Parliamentary elections. Clause 3 ensures that the results are declared by four o'clock on the following day. Clause 4 enables a returning officer to appoint suitable polling places. Clause 5 applies to the special case of the Glasgow Parish Councils elections. The Bill is quite uncontroversial, and I hope it may pass in time for the autumn elections. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Viscount Novar.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

PETROLEUM BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the House to be again put into Committee.
VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL had given Notice to move, That the said Order he discharged and that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, when the Motion was first made for the House to go into Committee on this Bill I made some remarks, in the course of which I said that my original desire was to refer the Bill to a Select Committee for reasons which I gave at the time. I can only say now that those reasons are strengthened by everything that I have heard since. I did not adopt that course then, because I thought that if such a Motion were made I ought to have put it. down on the Second Reading. I did not care to avail myself of a method of that kind at the last moment. But in the time that. has since elapsed the Government have given further consideration to this question, and I understand that they will be prepared to-day to accept the Motion which stands in my name.
On the previous occasion I warned your Lordships and the Government that the great harbour and dock boards, the shipping companies, the railway companies, and oil companies were all profoundly exercised in their minds by the provisions of this Bill. Since then I have heard—though I have not taken the trouble to verify it—that the great Association of Municipal Corporations is also very much exercised by it. This is a formidable array of opposition to a little Bill of this character.
The noble Marquess who is now leading the House (Lord Salisbury), in his reference to my remarks on the last occasion, said that he was sure we should all agree that there must be some control—in the hands, I suppose., of the Committee of Imperial Defence, or some of their officers—over the establishment of these storage tanks for oil. I do not know that I should be prepared to agree that there must be absolute and unlimited control, but I should be perfectly prepared to agree that nothing should be done which is likely to be troublesome to the defence of this country, without full consultation with the representatives of the Committee of Imperial Defence, and without good reason being given if their suggestions are not accepted. But may I point out
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that from my own knowledge, gained when I was at the Admiralty, the selection of sites for the storage of oil is surrounded by very great difficulty, because you cannot go here, there, or anywhere. You are limited, in the first place, to a site which will be approachable from the water, where the storage tanks can be filled from the barges or tankers that come alongside, and where also the oil can be discharged into the ships which want it for their motive power. There fore, the actual selection of the site is very limited indeed.
Then I was told by one of the advocates of a change in the law that it was desirable that these storage tanks should be placed in hollows, or in a wood, or some hidden place. It really is impossible. I speak with some experience on this subject, because it was a matter which exercised us more than any other when I was at the Admiralty. I assure the Government that there is, in reality, a choice between two alternatives, and two only: the one is the erection of storage tanks, as they are now, above ground, and the other is to put them below ground. The latter must be ruled out, because the expense is prohibitive, and, unless you are going to encourage all the great companies to have the maximum of storage in this country, you are going to revert to the old, haphazard policy which preceded the war, and which produced the consequences that I referred to on a previous occasion.
I hope that if this Motion is adopted and the Bill is referred to a Select Committee, they will give it their very careful consideration. They will, at all events, be fortified by evidence which they can call, and which, of course, could not possibly be summoned if the Bill were considered in Committee of the Whole House. I would only ask the Government to be good enough to examine one allegation that I make. I cannot state it as a fact, I have not verified it, but I firmly believe that, if they will cause inquiries to be made as to the various storage centres for petroleum in this country, they will find that, to-day, the one which is the most likely to be open to attack, and therefore to expose us to difficulty, is one of those erected by the Board of Admiralty themselves, and I am not at all sure that it was not during my time, and that I was not partly responsible for it. But, as a matter of

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fact, wherever you put these storage tanks it is quite obvious that they must be a source of danger. They are very conspicuous and they are hideous things. They are in a cluster, and they cannot, therefore, escape notice. But we must have them, or we shall run short of oil again, as we did before. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Order for the House to be again put into Committee be discharged, and that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee.—(Viscount Long of wraxall.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. After very careful consideration of what he and others have laid before the Government they are prepared to accept this Motion. For that very reason I shall not discuss now a matter which is to be referred to a Select Committee. We recognise that it is of the very greatest importance that the oil storage of this country should be increased, and we look forward in the near future to a very large augmentation of the present storage of oil. On the other hand, the very fact that the increase takes place lays an additional obligation on the central Government to see that in time of war these storage places are not exposed to air attack. I should not like your Lordships to carry away the idea that that danger is a small one. It is not a small one. We earnestly hope that there never may be another great war, but, should there be, the danger would be very considerable. Therefore the matter is of importance. What is necessary is to reconcile these two desiderata—the increase of oil with as much freedom as possible, and at the same time as little danger to the oil as possible. It was for that reason that the Government brought in this Bill, in order to give the central body—it may be the Home Office, or it may be another Office—some control.
But it would be a most disastrous thing if it were thought that the Government were trying to force this provision upon the country without due consideration. And the more my noble friend and others tell me that there is a feeling lest some injustice should be done, or some act of impolicy committed, and that this is felt not only by the great oil interests, but even by the municipal bodies, the more convinced I am that there should be some
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sort of inquiry which will command public confidence before the Bill is further proceeded with. I have the confident hope that if your Lordships are willing to send this Bill to a Select Committee the result may be that everyone who is interested may have his say, and may lay what he has to contribute before the Committee, so that when this Bill passes, in whatever form, it may command such general consent that no feeling of bitterness may remain. It is in that spirit that we consent to the Motion.
May I add that I think I may confidently rely upon my noble friend and others to see that no undue delay will take place through the setting up of this Committee? Such a thing never does take place in your Lordships' House really, but, at the same time, I think it right to say that we desire to pass this Bill quickly into law, and we hope, there, fore, that your Lordships will co-operate with the Government to that end.
LORD SOUTHBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to say one word of thanks to His Majesty's Government for the manner in which they have treated this somewhat difficult business. Those with whom I have consulted in regard to this Bill, never had it in mind that His Majesty's Government did not desire to see the greatest possible quantity of oil brought to the country both for the purposes of defence and of commerce. Far from it. The situation became a difficult one because a Bill which, at first sight, was merely a Departmental Bill gradually assumed new aspects of greater and greater importance as it was examined by one and another of the great industries of the country. It was discovered, not only by those who scrutinised the Bill outside but by His Majesty's Government, that there were questions relating to defence and matters of great importance to the commercial community which had not been sufficiently considered when the Bill was first introduced into your Lordships' House. I am certain that His Majesty's Government, by dealing with this measure in a benevolent manner, will have secured an inquiry into an important matter relating to defence and that good will undoubtedly come out of evil. I am confident also that the oil industries and other great industries of the country will show their acknowledgment of the Government's

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method of dealing with this Bill to-day by doing the best they can to facilitate the Inquiry by the Select Committee.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am very much obliged to my noble friend.
On Question, Motion agreed to: Order discharged, and Bill committed to a Select Committee.

AGRICULTURAL RETURNS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (THE EARL OF ANCASTER): My Lords, I understand that certain members of your Lordships' House desire a little more time in which to examine the provisions of this Bill. Therefore, if it will meet the convenience of your Lordships, I am willing that the Committee Stage of the Bill should be postponed until Tuesday or Wednesday of next week.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl for postponing the Committee Stage of this Bill. I am not, I confess, aware that there is any objection to the Bill, or that any members of your Lordships' House are likely to wish to move any Amendments to it. But we have just had a somewhat unfortunate example in the Petroleum Bill, upon which the noble Viscount, who has successfully carried his Resolution, spoke to us the other day, when he told us that he had not noticed its passage through the House on an earlier occasion. The same thing happened recently with regard to the Dangerous Drugs Bill, when the Committee Stage was put down for the day after the Bill had been given a Second Reading. The noble Earl in' charge of the affairs of the Home Office was, as usual, exceedingly kind in promising to postpone it again in order that we might have a little, time in which to consider our Amendments.
I hope that the noble Marquess the Deputy Leader of the House, who is not in his place at the moment, will allow me to say that, generally speaking, I think it is not a bad thing, unless there is some special reason of urgency, to allow what
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people now call the week-end to intervene between the Second Reading and the Committee Stage of a Bill. A good many noble Lords do not live in London, and have not always an opportunity of studying a Bill and of consulting those of their friends who are interested in the particular subject. It would be convenient, therefore, generally speaking, if a rule were laid down that, unless there is any reason of urgency, a week at least should intervene between the Second Reading and the Committee Stage of any Bill, however unimportant. Your Lordships would, of course, be always willing to waive such a rule if necessary, but, generally speaking, I do not think it should become the practice of your Lordships' House.
Order discharged.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Power to dispense with holding of assizes in places where unnecessary.
1.—(1) If at any time it appears to the Lord Chief Justice of England that there is no business or no substantial amount of business to be transacted at the assizes then about to be held at any place on a circuit and that having regard to all the circumstances of the case it is desirable that an order should be made under this section, he may with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor, by order direct that assizes shall not on the occasion of that circuit be held at that place, and where any such order is made then, notwithstanding any enactment or custom to the contrary, assizes shall not on that occasion be held at the place specified in the order.
LORD PARMOOR LORD PARMOOR moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert: "Provided that such order shall not be made to deprive a county of one assize in the year, unless there is no business to be transacted." The noble and learned Lord said: It is

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necessary for me to explain the Amendment which stands in my name. The purpose of Clause 1 is to provide, first, that where no business has been entered it shall not be necessary to hold an assize. That is right and proper and I raise no question about it. The second point is that where there is no substantial amount of business to be transacted it shall not be necessary to hold an assize. It appeared in the discussion the other day that the word "substantial" brought different ideas to different minds, as one would expect. If the present Lord Chancellor were always to be in office I think the word "substantial" might be a sufficient safeguard. If, on the other hand, the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane, were Lord Chancellor, I think it would be a very inefficient safeguard, having regard to the views which he expressed publicly in your Lordships' House.
I do not want to go again into the general question because I expressed as well as I could my own view of the extreme importance of preserving our circuit system, both from the point of view of the Judges being present from time to time in our county centres, and also in the interests of justice and particularly in the interests of poor prisoners. The effect of my Amendment is that the Order shall not be made to deprive a county of one assize in the year, unless there is no business to be transacted. I suggest that that is a very fair proposal to make for the settlement of this matter. Every one who knows county life and our county assizes will, I am sure, regret any interference, unless there is no business, with the present system of holding two county assizes in each county, which has been followed from time immemorial. If that is to be interfered with and the test is to be made as to whether there is substantial business or not, surely each county town ought to have the benefit of His Majesty's Judges coming on the circuit assize at least once in the course of the year.
I have no wish to dwell again upon a matter which I think carried great weight with your Lordships on a former occasion as regards the whole administration of justice: but it is of importance that our Judges should leave the London centre and go from time to time into these local centres. They not only give an example
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of how justice should be administered, but they come there in what is called the red gown in circumstances of considerable dignity and, as regards either prisoners or cases to be tried, they give the advantage, which I consider of enormous importance, of a local tribunal near the place where the prisoner lives or where the cause has originated. The Lord Chancellor pointed out on the last occasion, and I thank him for it, that the word "substantial" might apply even though there was only one case to be tried because that case might in itself be, a substantial one. But my fear is for the poor man whose case, from the legal point of view, is not regarded as a substantial one because it does not involve any important point of law or any great sum of money. To him it may be a substantial case, and his whole future may depend upon its being tried under conditions advantageous to him and his getting a verdict in his favour.
I will not labour this, but as a result of my experience as Chairman of Quarter Sessions I think it is of the utmost importance to a poor man who is being tried for a criminal offence that he should be tried in a place which is convenient for him in respect of obtaining witnesses and where, in the event of a sentence being passed upon them, there are friends and others from whom inquiries can be made by the presiding Judge. Both those matters are referred to at length, I think, in the Reports to which the noble Viscount referred us the other day. I do not care now to go back upon the points I then raised. I earnestly hope the Lord Chancellor may see his way to allow this Amendment to be adopted, and then. I think, the interests which I have tried to represent will be fairly protected. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 17, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Parmoor.)
VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL: I desire only to say one word. I was fully satisfied with the presentation of the case by the Lord Chancellor, and I understood that his interpretation was one which would entirely meet those whom I represent. But I have since gathered that there is some doubt in people's minds as to the way in which the word "substantial" may be interpreted. Like

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my noble and learned friend who has just spoken we should all be satisfied if the Lord Chancellor could be made perpetual occupant of the Woolsack, which would be an excellent arrangement for many other reasons.
My noble and learned friend who has moved this Amendment tells us he does so because he is considering the case of the prisoner. So far I am glad to say I have not been in the dock for any offence—at least I do not recollect it—but I have been more than once summoned as a witness at assizes held not in my own county, and the inconvenience is very great indeed, even for those of us who are able to obtain reasonable accommodation for ourselves if we are kept there for two or three nights. But for the ordinary middle class or working class man or woman who is summoned, and may be kept waiting two or three days before being put into the witness box, not only is the inconvenience very real, but the discomfort is considerable, and the cost to them is not small. Therefore, if the Lord Chancellor can see his way to accept this Amendment, which I think seems to be a reasonable compromise, I should be glad, but I welcomed so cordially the line which the Lord Chancellor took in dealing with those of us who are apprehensive as to what the effect of any reform of this kind would be that I should be the last person to desire to be in disagreement with him.
LORD CLWYD: I rise to remind the Lord Chancellor and the House once more that there happens to be in Wales a large number of these small assize towns, and I have always felt somewhat concerned as to the interpretation that might be put upon the word "substantial." I hope, therefore, that the Lord Chancellor will be able to accept the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CAVE): I think there must be some mistake in the drafting of this Amendment, because it proposes to provide that the Order shall not be made to deprive a county of one assize in the year. I suppose the meaning is that it shall not be made to deprive the county of all the assizes in the year. In short, if the first assize has not been held, and the second assize comes on, I think the noble and learned Lord means that this section shall
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no longer apply, and that if there is some business, whether substantial or not, the last assize shall be held.
LORD PARMOOR: On the drafting point—
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am not making any point about that. Taking what I have said as being the meaning of the Amendment, I am afraid I could not advise the House to accept it, because there really is no logic in the Amendment. Each assize ought to be taken on its merits, and if the town has so little work that not only is there no business, or no business to speak of at the first assize, but none also at the second, and none perhaps at the third, that town really ought not to complain if the third assize is not held. I must remind noble Lords that it has happened, and I think has happened even in Wales, that a small case has been sent to the assizes at the last moment in the hope of keeping the assize alive. I do not want to encourage that.
With regard to what my noble friend has said about the word "substantial" I appreciate the point, but this is no remedy for it. If that really be a difficulty this is not the remedy for it, because this would not apply to an assize at which there is something really substantial. It would not really help my noble friends in the difficulty they feel about the matter. I rather hoped from the debate on the Second Reading that my three noble friends were content with the Bill. I trust that, they will not press the Amendment.
LORD PARMOOR: Having regard to the view which the Lord Chancellor has taken I shall not ask your Lordships to divide upon this Amendment, but I should like to say a few words in answer to his argument, apart from the mere question of drafting. The possibility to which he has referred in regard to putting down a case at the last moment is really dealt with and met by the first part of the clause. That difficulty arose under the Act of 1908 owing to the limit of time being five days. If you could put the case down a sufficient time before, the difficulty would be adequately met. As to the other matter I feel strongly that a county town where there is some business ought not to be deprived twice

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in the year—I am not dealing with the mere question of drafting—of the presence of the assize Judge. I have raised the point, and I do not propose further to press the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 10 agreed to.
Clause 11 (Rules of Supreme Court):
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment which I have put clown to subsection (5) is purely a drafting one, and that observation applies also to all the Amendments that I have on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 25, after ("power") insert ("conferred").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: It may be well if I take the remaining Amendments rapidly. Perhaps noble Lords will interrupt me if I am going too fast and they want to raise any point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 12 (Trial with jury in County Courts and other inferior Courts of civil jurisdiction):
Amendments moved—
Page 8, line 34, leave out from ("jurisdiction") to ("and") in line 36, and insert ("of the court").
Page 9, line 17, at end insert ("and the expression 'equity jurisdiction' in relation to a county court means the equity jurisdiction given to county courts by Section sixty-seven of the County Courts Act, 1888").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to.
Clause 15 (Amendment as to registration of deeds of arrangement):
Amendments moved—
Clause 15, page 11, line 14, at the beginning of subsection (5) insert ("Subject to the provisions of subsection (4) of this section")
Clause 15, page 11, lines 16 and 17, leave out ("and subsection (3) of section thirteen")
Clause 15, page 11, line 19, after ("and") insert ("subject as aforesaid")
Clause 15, page 11, line 20, leave out from ("1914") to ("shall") in line 21.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule (Qualifications for certain officers in the Supreme Court):
Amendment moved—
First Schedule, page 14, lines 9 and 10, leave out ("that period") and insert ("the ten years immediately preceding his appointment").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.

RAILWAYS (AUTHORISATION OF WORKS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Extension of powers under section 16 of the Railways Act, 1921.
1. Where application is made by a railway company under Section sixteen of the Railways Act, 1921, for authority to provide any alteration, extension or improvement of existing works, the Minister may, by order under that section, notwithstanding anything therein contained, authorise the construction of the works if the expenditure involved will not exceed five hundred thousand pounds.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE)THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE) moved, at the end of the clause, to insert:
"Provided that any order by the Minister under that section authorising the alteration, extension or improvement of works involving an expenditure exceeding one hundred thousand pounds shall be subject to the same procedure as an order under Section seventeen of the said Act authorising the acquisition of land."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, although I have given Notice of this Amendment on the Third Reading of the Bill I need not assure my noble friend Lord Somerleyton, who is in charge of it, that I am not moving it in any spirit of hostility. We are all indebted to him for the clear exposition he gave of the measure on the Second Reading, and I particularly noticed what he said as to the intention of the Government in reference to the retention of Parliamentary control in the matters concerned. He said, and I am quoting from the OFFICIAL REPORT of April 26 last:
"As to control, Parliamentary control is retained under the provisions of Section 29

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of the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919. Those provisions have the effect of securing that any draft Order of the Minister under the provisions of the Bill must be submitted to the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords, and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons, and that if they consider that the proposals of the Order are of such a character or magnitude that they ought to be submitted to Parliament, the Order can only be made after it has been approved by Resolution of both Houses. I trust your Lordships will agree that this control is properly constituted."
I have been into this matter very carefully with my legal adviser, and it has also been discussed between the noble Lord and myself. I am much obliged to him for the way he has met me.
The position, as I find it, is this. This Bill is concerned with Sections 16 and 17 of the Railways Act, 1921. Section 16, amongst other things, authorises the Minister of Transport to make an Order authorising a railway company to provide minor alterations and extensions and improvements of existing works involving a capital expenditure not exceeding £100,000. This Bill raises that amount to £500,000. Under Section 17 the Minister may authorise it company to acquire land compulsorily for this purpose. I am satisfied that an Order made under Section 16 only is not subject to any Parliamentary confirmation at all. An Order made a under Section 17 is subject to the procedure described by my noble friend in his speech on the Second Reading—namely, it has to be submitted to the Chairman of each House, and if they are satisfied that it is necessary, the matter may have to be debated in Parliament.
I hope I have made the position clear. It is for this reason that I feel it necessary to move the Amendment. I am satisfied that under Section 16 there is no Parliamentary control, such as I think the Government itself intended. I can assure my noble friend and the Government and the House that I am anxious to serve them when duties are put upon me by Parliament; but I am satisfied that if a scheme were made under Section 16 only, not involving any compulsory purchase of land, and it came before the Chairman of Ways and Means and myself we should have no locus standi to act in the matter. Realising that the Government are anxious to bring us into this matter, I feel it necessary to
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move the Amendment in order to regularise our position and I hope my noble friend will see his way to agree to it.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, this question has been very fully discussed privately between the noble Earl and myself. I was hoping that he would not feel bound to press his Amendment to a Division, but as I understand he has indicated his intention to do so I am prepared to accept it. I would ask him, however, to add at the end of his Amendment the words "and the construction of works." I understand he is prepared to do so, and if they are added I shall be perfectly satisfied.
Amendment to the Amendment moved—
At end of the proposed Amendment insert ("and the construction of works").—(Lord Somerleyton.)
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I cannot refrain from saying that what has passed in connection with this Bill has added a great deal of weight to what I said just now with regard to the Agricultural Returns Bill. Here is a Bill which received its Second Reading on Tuesday last. No opportunity was given to the Chairman of Committees, or to any other member of your Lordships' House, to put down Amendments to it unless he did so at once, at the end of that sitting. Now it is down for Third Reading, and the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord to the Amendment moved by the Lord Chairman is not down on the Paper, so that no member has had an opportunity of considering it. I do not wish to delay the passage of the measure but I cannot help observing that, although the Amendment of the Lord Chairman has been on the Paper, the Amendment moved by the noble Lord has not been printed and has not been before your Lordships' House in any way. I hope that His Majesty's Government will, in future, give us a little more time instead of hurrying things through in this way. There is no extraordinary necessity for hurrying on legislation in this manner.
VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will represent to the noble

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Marquess the Leader of the House the remarks which have just fallen from the noble Earl. Coming to this House after having spent most of my life in another place I have been amazed at the extraordinary difficulty of ascertaining what our business is going to be; the difficulty of finding out what Bills are coming on, and whether we can take some of them as formal or not. In the other House it would be regarded, shall I say, as an outrage if the Government put down a Bill for Second Reading and then took the Committee Stage within a few hours. They would not be allowed to do it. Here, of course, gentler measures obtain and Governments get more latitude. I hope the noble Earl, however, will press his suggestion upon the Leader of the House. I am sure it will be to the advantage not only of your Lordships but of the legislation that we pass if a little more time is given to its consideration.
LORD SOMERLEYTON: My Lords, I will certainly report to the noble Marquess the Leader of the House the opinion that has been expressed by noble Lords on this matter. I trust that in this particular case, as the Lord Chairman has given his whole attention to it and gone into it thoroughly, your Lordships will be satisfied that the best possible consideration has been given to it.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: May I say that I am most grateful to the noble Lord for the way he has met me in the matter?
On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE BILL. [H.L.]
Amendment reported (according to Order).

THE NORTH-WEST FRONTIER.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU had given Notice to call attention to the recent policy of the Government of India on the North-West frontier of India, and to ask if any information can be given in reference to the recent construction of
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roads parallel to the frontier; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, at this late hour I do not propose to detain the House very long, although this is a subject which is certainly very important both to this country and to India. About two years ago we had a debate in this House on very much the same lines as those indicated in the Motion which I have put down, but much has happened since that time. The policy of road making on the frontier has progressed considerably, and already part of the programme for which I appealed in May, 1921, has been carried out. In addition there have been several changes in the institutions of representative government in India, and there has also been a considerable alteration in the military forces on the frontier.
I should be the last person to deny that there has been, generally speaking, an improvement in the military situation. Raids have not been so numerous as they used to be, and already I think I see welcome signs of an improvement, due largely to this policy of road making and of thereby increasing the mobility of our troops. But we must never forget that the frontier embraces a vast tract of country, and that the frontier is still inhabited in a great part by wild and lawless tribes, many of them extremely well armed—in fact, a large proportion of them are armed with modern rifles. Since the last war a large proportion of these tribes have obtained large quantities of ammunition as well. In the old days when we had to resist tribal attacks, the proportion of accurate rifles in the hands of the tribesmen was comparatively small, and their ammunition was to a large extent made in the locality, instead of being stolen from us, as it is to-day, or brought from outside by illicit methods.
Consequently, whatever we do on the frontier, I think the Secretary of State for India will agree with me that this region still presents a problem which has to be dealt with year by year, and that we cannot afford to relax our efforts either to maintain our own position there or to improve our mobility. In fact, our position might become very serious if, as might easily happen in the future, the tribes were at any time to combine with a power like Afganistan, and to take the opportunity of a quarrel between our

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selves and Afghanistan to fall upon us and to interfere with our troops on the frontier. It must never be forgotten that, although these tribes on the frontier have very often taken up a hostile attitude towards Afghanistan, they are always likely, at any rate in the neighbourhood of Kabul, to side with the forces of Afghanistan rather than with ourselves.
Besides the actual strength of our forces on the frontier there is another point to be considered. Prestige counts for a great deal on the frontier, and if we weaken our forces too far, even in the good cause of economy, as has been suggested by Lord Incheape in his very able Report, it may only result in a critical position arising which will require more troops eventually. I understand that so far the tendency is not so much towards economising troops as towards cutting down the expenditure connected with those troops, such as expenditure on mechanical transport, about which I shall have something to say later. It is no use having these new lateral roads on the frontier unless you have sufficient mechanical transport to convey your troops along them from the base depots.
In former days we had transport and no roads; to-day, it looks as if we are going to have roads and no transport, and I appeal to the Secretary of State for India to hold his hand, or at any rate to consider very carefully before he reduces mechanical transport too far, and to remember that without mechanical transport on the frontier our mobility will be very seriously affected. I fully admit—in fact, I have said so on more than one occasion in this House and out of it—that there may be a case for economising very seriously in the matter of animal transport., and I agree that, where you have mechanical transport it, is not necessary to have the same amount of animal transport. In other words, you can cut down your mules, camels and, to a certain extent, ponies, and so on, if you replace them with motor vehicles.
We have along this frontier five great salients which reach up into enemy country, and which were until quite lately without any inter-connecting roads, and I remember that in the days of Lord Hardinge and Lord Chelmsford—to both of whom I am indebted for the very great interest which they took in this subject when I was an officer of the Government
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in India—the lack of lateral roads was always being brought to our notice. These five great salients are the Malakand, the Khyber, the Kurram Valley and road to Parachinar, the Tochi Valley and the Valley of the Zam to Jandoia, and the Gomal into the Mahsud country. All these salients are extremely vulnerable, for the tribes keep on the hilltops, while our roads and bases are in the valleys.
Hitherto, when an attack has been made on a convoy or body of troops on a road running up these valleys, it has been very difficult to relieve them except by sending up more troops from the base. Further, when raids have occurred the raiders have been able to escape into the wild country between these valleys, and we have never had a chance of cutting them off. I am delighted to see that, so far as I can gather from documents which have been sent to me and from general information which I gathered in India last year, the lateral roads already made are answering their purpose well. The lateral road which has been made or is under construction from Thal in the North by Spinwan to Edak, and thence by Razmak to Jandola and back by Khirghi to Tank and Dera Ismail Khan, will, when it is completed as a first-class road, be extremely valuable in dealing with raids.
There is another point which I would urge upon the Secretary of State. I am quite sure that he agrees that one of the great drawbacks of the frontier has hitherto been that, with the exception of two small and very inadequate hill stations, Sheik Budin and the Samana Range, there, have been no healthy places to which we could send officers or men or civilians during the hot summer weather. Consequently, both officers and men and their wives and families have either had the expense of going to one of the regular hill stations, at a great distance from the frontier, or have had to hear the heat of the summer. That heat is not to be thought of lightly. During the war the temperatures which our officers and men had to bear in Mesopotamia were a revelation to the people of this country, but they are no worse than those of the North-West frontier, and I may say that the night temperatures in Mesopotamia are decidedly more bearable than those of the frontier, where day

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temperatures of 125 degrees to 130 degrees are not uncommon, with night temperatures of 100 degrees to 105 degrees. Anyone who has gone through that, as I did in the summer of 1915, will realise that after a year or two the strain of bearing such temperatures becomes almost too great. The result is that we have a very large number of oases of sickness, heat stroke, and so on, among our forces there; and, as the Secretary of State well knows, every case of sickness involves expense to the Government of India, apart from the fact that it weakens your fighting forces. Sickness, indeed, involves a very expensive form of military expenditure, and brings no return.
Now the only lateral road which is in active use to-day is the base road which starts at Peshawar and goes on to Kohat, Bannu and D.I.K. That road is in a more or less good state, but when I was there last year I noticed places where it needed improvement. Generally speaking, it is a good lateral road. Lately we have heard a good deal about Kohat in connection with the outrage committed upon poor Mrs. Ellis, and the abduction of her daughter. Those isolated murders and outrages have always occurred in the country near the frontier, from time to time, but this was more serious than usual, inasmuch as the tribal marauders on this occasion did something which they have hardly ever done before, because they attacked a white woman, murdered her, and abducted her daughter. I am not going to suggest that this outrage was the result of any particular policy, or that the Government of India were in any way to blame for it, but I say that it is the indirect result of having in the Kohat Pass tribal territory over which we have no control, and in which these blackguards congregate.
The time has now arrived when we should take over this small tribal enclave. On more than one occasion in the years 1917, 1918, and 1919, those of us who were working on the frontier had very serious apprehensions whether we were not going to have tribal trouble on this road. The tribesmen were getting exceedingly bold; they knelt down on the road and presented their rifles at the passing traffic. That happened to us on more than one occasion. They got so insolent that at last they had to be warned, on more than one
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occasion, and to be told that if they did not behave themselves we should take over their villages. Beyond that, there are two rifle factories in the Pass, where rifles are manufactured, which are used against our troops, and it is a question whether we should not take them over. With British territory running all round it is absurd that this should be still tribal territory, when the main lateral base road runs through it.
To leave the northern end of the frontier for a moment, I should like to know whether there is any intention, on the part of the Government of India, of improving the inter-communication between the 1st Division at Peshawar, and the three frontier forces based at Kohat, Bannu, and D.I.K., and also between the 4th Division at Quetta and the Derajat (D.T.K.) forces. Road and railway communication between Quetta and D.I.K. is very advisable; it would prevent serious raids and promote peace. From the figures shown to me I think I am justified in saying that the saving would be something like thirty to forty lakhs a year in the cost of supplying the troops, if we had a better road or better communication between those two points.
Looking back at the debate which we had sometime since I noticed that Lord Lytton, who replied, agreed with me as to the repairs necessary to the road through the Bolan Pass, and that he said it would be put into order, and metalled to twelve inches. I suppose that meant twelve feet of metalling in width. I came down that Pass last year. It was barely possible to get down even in a small motor car, and I should think it is probable that a portion of the road has now been washed away. In my judgment, having regard to the gradient of the present railway via the Sukkur Bridge, Quetta, should not be left entirely to railway communication. Road communication should also be kept in operation, because if the railway were interfered with by the forces of man or the forces of nature the troops which constitute our only defence on the southern part of the frontier could be entirely cut off from India and probably before long would be without food. I think, therefore, that the Bolan Pass road should have the early attention of the Government of India.
There has been, I am aware, a certain amount of criticism of the railway up

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the Khyber Pass, but I think that it was a very wise decision that the Government of India came to when they decided to make it. It was very expensive to make, because the country was difficult, the gradients severe, and you had to punch tunnels through heavy rock formations. The result will be that when finished it will not justify the cost on anything but military grounds. In that respect, I believe, it has been said that it will probably postpone the next Afghan war indefinitely, or considerably diminish its importance, and it was therefore the proper step to take as an insurance.
I hope also the noble Viscount will not forget that, although the Air Force on the frontier up to now has not achieved all that some enthusiasts thought it might achieve, it might be made more use of than is the case at present. I believe the Government of India have decided to strengthen the Air Force on the frontier, and it is one of the means whereby we can withdraw troops on the ground of economy, yet show ourselves in the country and maintain somewhat of a hold there.
We all know the excellent work which the noble Lord, Lord Inchcape, has done in suggesting reforms to the Government of India and the cutting down of expenditure. Sometimes the critics of military expenditure point to the fact that 57 per cent. of the total expenditure of India is on the Army. That may appear to be excessive, but if you consider the responsibility of the Government of India on that frontier and the forces opposed to you, I do not think that the expenditure on the Army in India is really anything to be wondered at. After all, you have taken up the duty of defending the frontier of India against all who attack it, and you cannot do that lightly or without expense. I am sure that the House will agree with me when I say that if we once begin to show weakness in frontier defence that will reflect itself all over India. Many educated and quite friendly Indians have said to me: "If your own British troops, or our troops organised by you, cannot defend our frontier successfully, what is your Army in India for?" I find it difficult to answer that question. Of course, the justification for all our troops in the Northern and North-Western part of India is that they are kept there, trained there, and used, for the defence of the frontier.
Having lived for some time on the frontier I wish to take an opportunity of paying a tribute to the splendid military tradition existing among officers and men there, as well as among civilians. I do not believe there are any finer troops, or any better led, and with a more magnificent spirit than the frontier forces. These officers and men, who endure frightful heat in summer and considerable cold in winter, who bear great hardships and carry their lives in their hands nearly the whole time they are there, deserve the warmest thanks, not only of India but of the Empire. I am sure, from what I have heard, that it would be highly discouraging to this force if the idea became prevalent—as I am afraid it was likely to do, at any rate some time ago—that the strength of the frontier forces was going to be seriously reduced.
In conclusion, I would like to ask the noble Viscount if he could see his way, in view of the importance of this question, to let the House have a Blue-book or a White. Paper, or a Return of some kind, to include the more recent memoranda of the General Staff in India on the frontier question, together with a summary of the road work already done and to be done. I am sure that if we had those Papers it would add a great deal to our knowledge of these questions, and it might be of assistance also in removing impressions which, I am sure, have no foundation in fact, as to the weakening of our forces there.
VISCOUNT CHELMSFORD: My Lords, I am sure that those of your Lordships who are interested in this question of frontier administration feel indebted to my noble friend for having put this Question on the Paper. It is true, as he says, that roads are, in a large measure, the key of the situation on the North-West frontier, and I can only say that a considerable sum was spent on frontier communications while I was Viceroy. My noble friend is an expert on this matter, and anything that comes from him on the question of transport and communications deserves the most serious consideration. But I shall not follow him this evening on the road question. It is almost impossible to make a road policy intelligible in this House without maps, and, even with maps, I know from personal experience that it very often

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happens that a policy which has been drawn up on map knowledge is found to be erroneous and unsound when knowledge and experience on the spot have been brought to bear upon it. I think my noble friend must be satisfied on the whole with what is going on at the present moment. You are going to have this great road of 180 miles, I believe, linking up the Tochi and the Gumal, and you are also going to have what my noble friend has pleaded for so often in this House, this road giving a hundred miles of lateral communication in the Dera Ismail Khan district.
I will pass on to the question of frontier policy which he has raised. This really, in the main, resolves itself into a question where the frontier line of an administrative territory is going to be, and, if the House will bear with me, I will in a very broad fashion indicate the salient features of the problem. There are two possible frontier lines which can be advocated or defended on geographical, military, or strategic grounds. There is the line of the Indus, and there is the Durand Line. As regard the Indus, there are those who say we ought never to have gone beyond the Indus and that if we had not gone beyond the Indus we should have been spared much expenditure, both in men and in money. But the logic of events has proved too strong for us in this matter, and we have now incurred commitments and responsibilities which would make a retirement back to the Indus line both unthinkable and impossible. I pass over the military and strategic reasons which actuated us in an advance beyond the Indus, because those are not germane to my present point. The point that I wish to make emphatically with regard to that particular matter is that. I regard the commitments that we have entered into as a conclusive answer to those who would advocate any retirement to the Indus line.
Then we come to the Durand Line. Noble Lords may remember that that was negotiated by Sir Mortimer Durand as long ago as 1893, between Afghanistan and ourselves, and that marks the frontier between the two countries. But it is not completely demarcated throughout its whole length. It was based in the main on tribal lines, so that so far as possible there should be no
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tribal division along that line, but that the tribes or sects of tribes should find themselves on one side or the other of that line. I think I shall not be incorrect when I say that as soon as that Treaty was made the Amir Abdur-Rahman brought the tribes on his side of the line immediately under control and subjection. We, however, took no steps, and except at certain points mentioned by my noble friend in his speech just now—the Khyber, the Kurram, and Baluchistan—our frontier does not touch the Durand Line, and does not run up to that line.
There are, of course, those who say that we ought to carry our administered territory up to that line, to disarm and control the tribes. But I think it is sufficient answer, for the present purpose, to those who advance that view that for thirty years no Viceroy has ever found himself able to face such a policy. The expenditure in men and money which would be involved in such a policy is, I think, a reasonable explanation why every Viceroy for the past thirty years has shrunk from attempting to go forward with such a policy. There are two clear possible frontier lines, then, from which noble Lords can realise the position. There is the backward frontier line geographically, the Indus, and there is the possible frontier line under the Durand Treaty that present line, except at points which I named just now, runs somewhere between those two lines. But the present line of frontier is based on no geographical, no military, and no strategic ground. It is largely the result of historical accident.
Sometimes, as your Lordships are aware, the Close Border policy is mentioned. If by that is meant that we should maintain our position on the frontier and that we should not penetrate tribal area, it is a policy I think to which all would subscribe. No one would willingly push further into that terrible welter of hills which forms the frontier unless absolutely forced to do so. If it means that the line which has existed until quite recently should remain without readjustment although circumstances arise which suggest a better line, then I cannot subscribe to what is called the Close Border line, because that line has no military or strategic reasons to support it.

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May I give your Lordships a concrete example from my own experience during my time in India? In 1917, during the war, when we were most anxious to avoid any frontier commitments which would involve our troops, the Mahsuds proceeded to make a series of unprovoked and wanton attacks upon our territory. We endeavoured, as I say because we were most anxious to avoid anything like commitments, to make defensive military dispositions on the frontier; but they were quite useless. Posts were cut up, untoward incidents occurred, and we incurred the cost in men and money of a campaign without any prospect of a favourable issue. We were driven then into an expedition, although a possible blaze on the frontier might be the result. Our expedition was short, it was sharp, and it was successful, but to avoid any further complications on the frontier and, I may say, after very friendly discussions with the Amir of the time, we withdrew our farces.
In 1919 and 1920 there was a recurrence of these troubles. We had then to consider whether any steps should be taken to prevent this standing menace on our frontier. Let me remind your Lordships very briefly of what the history of this region has been. Since 1852, in this particular area, we have had as many as seventeen expeditions, sometimes called expeditions and sometimes called blockades. Since 1911 we have had four expeditions, and this at a time when our policy was one strictly of non-interference and when, beyond the subsidies we gave to the tribes in order that they might have something to live on, we had as little as possible to do with them. We were driven, then, in my time to a reconsideration of this policy, and we advocated a policy of road making such as the noble Lord has indicated to-day, and a readjustment of the points of occupation, taking up a central position in lieu of those which were more remote. I may say that my successor, Lord Reading, has accepted that policy and, with certain modifications which have been made as the fruit of experience, is carrying it out.
Now, if, by the Forward policy, is meant an advance towards the Durand Line, it is not a forward policy at all. Since 1894, broadly speaking, two places to which my noble friend referred—Datia Khel in the north of this district, and
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Wana in the south—have been almost continuously occupied by troops, whether regulars or irregulars. And Razmak which is now going to be the principal point of occupation in that country, is further from the Durand Line than either of those places. The policy is not to be a forward one, but one of readjustment in the light of experience, and I believe it is the policy that should be followed in these matters. There should be no hard-and-fast line, because you cannot draw a hard-and-fast line which can be shown to have military or geographical advantages, and, if possible, there should be no invasion of, or interference with, tribal territory. But there should be an occupation of such posts as experience suggests may bring about peace and quiet.
There are two points which I should like to make in conclusion. The first one is this. I do not believe that we shall ever have peace upon our frontier until we can find work for the turbulent young men in that area. Dr. Watts is right every time—
"Satan finds some mischief still
For idle hands to do."
The problem as regards the frontier has been aggravated in this manner. During the war, owing to the misbehaviour of the transborder Pathans in our regiments in France and elsewhere, Army Headquarters refused to continue recruitment from the transborder Pathans. The consequence is that a large number of young men in that tribal area, who in old days would have found vent for their activity in our Forces, now have nothing to do and make mischief. The position really is not dis-similar to that in Ireland. For many years now emigration from Ireland has been stopped, and there are a lot of young men growing up there who have aboslutely nothing to do.
Take a concrete instance. My noble friend alluded just now to the work that is going on in the Khyber Pass. The Afridis have remained absolutely quiet during the past few years largely because they have all been at work on the Khyber Railway which is to proceed up to Lundi Kotal. In 1920 when our troops were moving up into Waziristan, I asked Army Commanders to find out whether more could not be done in the way of irrigation so as to increase the food produced in the frontier area. But I am afraid they

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replied that there was not much that we could teach the frontier tribes in regard to the irrigation of the frontier country. I pressed Army Headquarters as to whether they could not commence recruitment amongst the transborder Pathans for units that might be overseas. I do not think that in that matter we can really wash our hands of responsibility. These people are within our sphere of influence. They are within the Durand Line. I do not think we can say that we can do nothing for them. We have a responsibility for them, and I feel that we ought to try to do something for them.
I shall allude to another matter only very briefly because I should like to make a suggestion for the consideration of my noble friend the Secretary of State for India in reference to that lamentable affair at Kohat. We would all join, I think, in paying a tribute to that gallant woman Mrs. Starr and that equally gallant native officer who accompanied her into the territory. I also think that a tribute should be paid to the Chief Commissioner, Sir John Maffey, for what he has done in this matter. It was, of course, his duty to take charge and he, took charge; but I think the fact that he was so quickly able to follow up what was happening on the other side of the frontier and to put Mrs. Starr and the Rissaldar Major in the right direction to find Miss Ellis, is proof of the grip that he has upon his work there.
But the matter that I should like to mention to my noble friend is this. There has always been great chivalry on the border with regard to women, and the first occasion on which there was an outrage against a white woman on the frontier took place just at the end of my time. I asked a frontier officer of great experience about this and he said: "There has always been great chivalry on the part of tribesmen towards women, but you must remember this. In all frontier expeditions up to now the women and children were able to withdraw from their homes and their villages before the invading forces ever came near them. That has been wiped out. The purda has been lifted. In a moment you have an aeroplane over a village, and women and children get killed. Can you wonder that their attitude will change and that they will think of reprisals."
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As regards this particular outrage, we know that there is a history which is well accounted for, and I throw out the suggestion to the noble Lord that if women and children are killed on the frontier there is a very great chance of reprisals on the part of the tribes. I do not for a moment say that this is going to happen, but I only say that this was said to me by a man of great experience on the frontier. I think it is well that in this matter sonic attention should be paid to it. We know the horror we ourselves felt over the air raids here when our women and children were killed. I do not think it can be wondered at that the same thing will prevail among the tribes. I am afraid I have kept your Lordships an undue time, but I hope that the fact that I have had some responsibility in this matter will excuse me.
THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I have never before ventured to address you on a question relating to India, but I have often wished to say something when Indian debates were taking place in this House. Lord Montagu, two years ago, dealt with this subject very fully, and asked the Government what steps, military and civil, were being taken to provide for the efficient defence of the North-West frontier of India. I listened to every word of his speech and of the answer which was made on that occasion. Lord Chelmsford gave Lord Montagu great praise and credit for the work that he had done in urging the Government to make roads to the frontier.
I am not going to say anything about the military policy. Lord Chelmsford dealt with that two years ago, and he has dealt with it again to-day, but I desire to say something about a road to our frontier. Lord Chelmsford, to-day, said that the most troublesome young men of these tribes, when they were engaged making the railway in the Khyber Pass, were quiet, and I am certain that if to-day a road was made parallel to the frontier most of the blackguards and scoundrels, and most of the murderers and thieves, would be engaged working on that road instead of taking part in raids on our frontier. The Northern frontier of India has always been the weak point in the Indian Empire. All invasions have come from the north from the days of Alexander down to the days of Akbar. Then followed the Dutch, the French, and the

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English occupation, crowned by that great man, Lord Clive, who established our Empire.
Your Lordships all know that during the great war, as Lord Chelmsford has said, aeroplanes made very serious raids, but we were so much engaged in thinking of our relations and friends out at the Front that we heard very little about those raids, and about the gallant officers and men killed in them,. I know the difficulties of making a great road along the Indian frontier. It is impossible that the road should be made even along the foothills. You mast go down into the plain. But if you made such a road trade would be improved, men would be put to work, and the efforts of traders to come down by these roads running, as all roads do in mountainous countries, along the lines of streams, would be greatly helped. The traders would get on to the great road, and pass easily to the fairs they wished to attend.
The noble Viscount, Lord Chelmsford, alluded to my country. It is true that when there is nothing to do people are apt to get into mischief. In contrasting a good road with the railway it will be realised that a railway is easily and quickly destroyed. The rails are tossed into the air by means of dynamite. My experience in Ireland—and I have had much unpleasant experience since 1916—is that a well made road is one of the most difficult things to break up permanently. You can make trenches across it, fell trees, and break up bridges, but in a very few hours those trenches can be filled, the trees can be cut up and taken away, and the road made practicable for lorries and troops. My dream of a road is a big broad highway which will allow three lorries to pass abreast. That, for the present, is sufficient. Along such a road your troops can pass quickly. We had experience of that in the great war when an army was rushed out of Paris in taxicabs. You have aeroplanes to watch what is going on upon the road, and you have motor cars also to use upon it.
One of the greatest maxims that has been written on this subject is this: "Nothing economises military force more effectually than possession of means quickly to concentrate all available resources upon any point which the enemy may select for attack." That has
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been brought home to us over and over again. It has been brought home to me in Ireland very often. I should like to say a great deal more on this matter, but. I do not wish to detain your Lordships. Lord Montagu ought to be thanked for bringing forward this subject. I hope I shall live to see a policy of road-making carried out. I remember India very well as a boy, and I have been there since. I should like to go again. The troops and men who keep the frontier in India deserve the greatest praise and respect.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (VISCOUNT PEEL): My Lords, this discussion on the North-West frontier of India and our policy there is, I think, highly satisfactory to His Majesty's Government. It has received encomiums from Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, who has an expert knowledge of the roads and transport, and from Lord Chelmsford, who gave a most admirable sketch of the general policy on the border. Lord Chelmsford regarded the policy as being nothing but a continuation, with some slight modifications, of his own, and no higher praise could be given by anybody than that. The chorus was carried on by the noble Earl behind me. I envy the noble Lord who raised this Question because he has been able to be out on the frontier quite recently and comes back with fresh knowledge and personal experience of the subject. I need not remind your Lordships that during the war he rendered very great services to the Headquarters Staff in India and gave valuable expert reports on transport and roads on the frontier. He speaks with considerable authority and knowledge. My task to-night has been lightened by the speeches of both noble Lords who have dealt thoroughly and in such an informed manner with the subject.
Before I say a word on general policy, I ought to deal briefly with one or two of the definite points which have been addressed to me. My noble friend in opening the debate criticised, no doubt partly in connection with recent unfortunate events, the fact that the road to Kohat went through tribal territory, and he suggested that this stretch of country should be brought under direct administration. He knows that this has

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been frequently discussed with the Government of India. I only say, by way of caution, that it would be no inconsiderable task, and in the presence of Lord Inchcape I should hesitate to suggest that the Government should undertake any considerable work on the frontier. May I allude, as my noble friend Lord Chelmsford did, to the most unfortunate case of Mrs. Ellis and Miss Ellis? My noble friend suggested that there might be some connection between the bombing in the Mahsud country and such a change from the ordinary habits of the frontier as outrages and attacks on women. I was rather glad that my noble friend guarded himself by saying that he did not think there was any connection in this case. All the evidence we have goes to show the contrary; that this particular raid was a reprisal for a very active seizure of men and rifles made by an officer at Kohat, and that any connection between this outrage and any bombing which took place is non-existent.
Another suggestion was made by Lord Montagu of Beaulieu. He actually dared to raise his hand against the Report of Lord Inchcape and suggested that he had been advising too great a cutting down of mechanical transport. A good many persons interested in different subjects in India have made considerable criticism of the work of Lord Inchcape. Before I say a word on the question of transport I should like to express publicly what my noble friend knows has been expressed on many occasions before, the very great debt we owe for the magnificent and monumental Report which was produced in such a brief time on so complicated a subject as the whole administrative area of India. Those who are familiar with Commissions and Reports of that kind will not withhold the greatest credit for the great labour and devotion shown by the noble Lord in producing that Report. Lord Inchcape not only showed great ability but great tact, because although he sheared, almost with brutality, most of the Services in India, yet in some odd way they look upon him as a benefactor. No greater tribute could be paid to an economist than that.
As to a reduction of mechanical transport if my noble friend has examined the figures he is aware that a great deal of is rather of an ancient order, and that what the Government of India have to consider is not how much they ought to
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have but how much is necessary for transport purposes and how much they can afford to keep in full maintenance. To keep the transport in full maintenance is far better than to have a larger amount of transport which could not be so maintained. The question of the exact amount of transport is being carefully considered.
My noble friend said a few words about the Khyber railway and he dwelt upon the great advantages it had in providing work for the Afridis. The point that it gave work to these active young men was also touched upon by Lord Chelmsford. I understand that by the end of this year the tunnel will be forced and the railway available for carrying materials. From the point of giving work to the Afridis and keeping them quiet I wish that work on the railway could go on for ever and that some skilful person might undo during the night what was done during the day. As at present carried on the railway will soon be completed. I need not dwell upon its strategic value or the saving of expenditure which will be secured.
The next point raised was the question of the connection between the troops at Peshawar, Bannu and Kohat. My noble friend is familiar with the broad gauge railway which runs from Peshawar, and no doubt with the narrow gauge line running to Kohat. He took us over the narrow gauge line which runs to Bannu and up to Khirghi. Railway communication is a very familiar subject to all of us. I want to say a word, partly from the economic and partly from the strategic point of view on the question of roads. Both noble Lords have described clearly the roads running down from Thal to Spinwan and Edak and the great semicircular frontier parallel road behind the tribal frontier running from Razmak down to Jandola and back by Khirghi to Tank and D.I.K., thus making a communication road up and down the frontier.
My noble friend urged, I think, in the course of his speech, that it would be a great misfortune if the Government were to reduce the troops on the frontier. I have not heard about any reduction of troops. On the contrary, so far from reducing the troops on the frontier I think the noble Lord will agree that the Government are doing everything possible to multiply them, for he knows very well that

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if you double the mobility of your troops you practically double your forces, and that is really what this scheme is doing.
Besides this road and the road mentioned by Lord Chelmsford there is a further road from Jandola to Sara Rogha The object of that road is to enable the scouts to support the Khassadars, and also to make it more difficult for raids to be conducted. The general system was described by the noble Lord. First you have a sort of tribal guard consisting of Khassadars, then there are the Scouts, and behind them the Regulars. The Khassadars, as those familiar with India will know, are a sort of tribal levy or tribal police, officered by their own officers and keeping order within their own limits. This is an old principle on the frontier, and I think a very good one, because it gives the tribes themselves some stake in the maintenance of order in their own districts, and keeps alive and vivifies the system of tribal responsibility, giving them perhaps an enlarged idea of the possibilities of self-government.
But, of course, troops like that cannot be left in the air. They must have support if their activities and power of resistance to disturbance are to be maintained. Consequently, we have behind them a sort of trained trans-frontier policemen, as t may call them, namely, the Scouts, who aro formed of irregulars officered by British officers, their clothing and rifles being supplied by the British Government. This is a very inexpensive force. It stands behind the Khassadars and is ready to support them if they are attacked. In this area of the frontier there are about 5,000 of them in two battalions of three wings each—the organisation is rather a peculiar one—and normally they will be under the orders of the Chief Commissioner for the North-West Frontier Province. They will be posted chiefly at two places, of which one is Sara Rogha, and they are recruited, as to one-third of them, in the trans-border areas, and as to two-thirds of them in the cis-border areas, so they are to that extent a mixed force.
The noble Lord has spoken about the withdrawal of Regulars. No doubt he will not confuse the alteration of the position of Regulars with withdrawals, because while these roads are being made—and this particular road is to be com-
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pleted by the end of the year—the regular forces will not be withdrawn. When they are withdrawn, or rather moved, they will occupy two stations, one at Razmak, which is six or seven thousand feet above sea level, and the other at Jandola. Both these positions are outside the actual tribal areas of the Mahsuds. One is in the Battanis country, and the other in Waziristan. I should add that we have come to Razmak and occupied it at the actual invitation of the Wazirs themselves, and that they are very gratified that we should be there. It will be seen, therefore, that though they are outside the territory, they are on the edge of the territory, and in case of trouble they are able to support either the Scouts or the Khassadars. They can be moved up very rapidly along the road and will be extremely effective—none the less effective, indeed, because they are not in the middle of the country, and none the less effective because the Mahsuds know something of tactics, and are fairly well aware of what may happen in the case of disturbance.
Several advantages are to be obtained by this distribution of troops. The noble Lord dwelt a good deal upon the health of the troops. Everybody familiar with soldiering in India knows the enormous loss of efficiency caused through sickness to the troops in these hot plains, and the enormous advantage, from the point of view of general efficiency, in their being at a place like Razmak, which is 7,000 feet above the sea. I have already dwelt upon the great rapidity with which they can be carried to the support of other troops along this road, and one noble lord has borne testimony to the fact that a road is far more durable and more difficult to destroy than a railway or a- bridge. But, more than anything, I think, so far as the Mahsuds are concerned, what this road achieves is the removal of the inaccessibility of these tribes. It is this inaccessibility which breeds a certain frowardness in people who know that they can come down into the fatter countries and loot, and yet cannot be attacked in their own country except al the cost of an elaborately constructed expedition. I think those familiar with the early history of Scotland will realise thoroughly that if the moss troopers raid-

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ing across the Border had known that there was a road running parallel with the Border, and that they would be cut off as they returned from their raids into Northumberland, then the farmers of Northumberland would have had less cause to lament the loss of their herds.
As raids are becoming more formidable than they were in the past, partly because the rifles with which the tribes are equipped are more effective, as the noble Lord has told us, and also because of the ammunition they were able to secure during the war, and the numbers in which these raids are conducted, it is of enormous importance that people who try to raid over the frontier should know that there is a good chance of meeting with a very unpleasant reception when they go back, and of losing all the loot which they have brought with them. Further, the roads themselves, as the noble Lord knows, have a civilising effect, and apart from the fact that these men require some occupation, even Ruskin, I believe, showed many years ago at Oxford that nothing can have a more helpful effect on the youthful mind than the making of roads. The plain truth about these hills is, of course, that they breed more people than they can feed, and until that problem is dealt with, whether by recruitment, or by occupation, or by the making of roads, or in some other way, so long will there be this frontier problem, and the question will remain alive. I have explained perhaps in some detail the present policy regarding the frontier, and I should like to say that there is peace on the frontier at present, and that on March 22 all sections of the Mahsuds accepted the British terms, so that now we can go ahead with the construction of these roads.
The only other point with which I need deal before I sit down is the reference of Lord Chelmsford to the different opinions regarding the frontier, to the "Forward" school and the "Close Border" school. He described very clearly the different principles which animated those two schools. Personally, I do not wish to belong to either school. I think that we have to deal with these particular frontier cases as they arise, and as the situation dictates. You can-
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not lay down one general rule for the whole of this immense frontier; there are historic, geographical, tactical and strategic reasons to be considered on each portion of the frontier with which you are dealing. The one thing clear about this frontier policy is that when you have decided upon your policy you should carry it out with vigour and determination, and there should be no turning back. That principle obtains, no doubt, and carries respect with it, in countries in the West, but it applies far more to those Eastern countries with which we are now dealing. I am very much obliged to my noble friend for having raised this subject, and I hope that I have, to the best of my ability, answered the questions he put to me.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I beg to thank the noble Viscount for his reply.

STANDING JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS.
VISCOUNT PEEL: My Lords, I beg to make the Motion standing in my name.
Moved, That the following Lords be appointed to serve on the Standing Joint Committee on Indian Affairs, and that the Committee have power to agree with the Commons upon the appointment of a Chairman—

E. Midleton.

V. Chelmsford.

L. Harris.

L. Lamington.

L. Montagu of Beaulieu.

L. MacDonnell.

L. Pentland.

L. Southborough.

L. Hardinge of Penshurst.

L. Clywd.

L. Meston.

—(Viscount Peel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to. Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to request them to appoint eleven Members of that House to be joined with the said Committee.

RUNCORN DISTRICT WATER BOARD BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
NATIONALITY OF MARRIED WOMEN.
Message from the Commons, That they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to examine the British Law as to the Nationality of Married Women; to consider in their legal and practical aspects the questions involved in the possession by husband and wife of the same or of different nationalities and with due regard thereto, and to the operation of the laws of foreign countries, to report what, if any, alteration of the British Law is desirable, do meet the Lords Committee in Committee Room C on Tuesday next, at twelve o'clock as proposed by their Lordships.

LONDON ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for Thursday next) put off to the third sitting day after the Recess at Whitsuntide.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House. That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing
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Orders have not been complied with in respect of the Petition for the following Bill:
Seaham Harbour Dock.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

WIMBLEDON AND SUTTON RAILWAY BILL.
PETITION FOB ADDITIONAL PROVISION.
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday next.

ESSEX COUNTY COUNCIL (BARKING BRIDGE) BILL.
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
HOYLAKE AND WEST KIRBY GAS AND WATER BILL.
Committed for Tuesday next.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL [H.L.]
Committee of the Whole House (which Stands appointed for Tuesday next) put off to Tuesday the 15th instant.
House adjourned at ten minutes past seven o'clock.