§ Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (THE EARL OF ONSLOW)My Lords, in moving that you do read this Bill a third time, perhaps I may remind you that on the Committee Stage of the Bill my noble friend Lord Beauchamp moved an Amendment providing that no constable called out during an industrial dispute should be, called upon to perform any work in connection with the industry in which the dispute was proceeding. I ventured to deprecate the acceptance of that Amendment, on the ground that the Act of 1831 covered the point, but Lord Salisbury undertook to look into the matter again, and see whether it would be possible to meet the point which the noble Earl raised, and also a point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Buxton, that possibly in the working of the special constabulary the provisions of the Act of 1831 might be overlooked.
My right hon. friend the Secretary of State does not feel that it would be good draftsmanship, or convenient, to accept an Amendment on the lines suggested by the noble Earl, but in order to meet the point he is willing to insert in the Regulations a provision to the effect that a constable shall not be authorised, or required, to be employed otherwise than in the preservation of the peace and the protection of persons and property, as laid down in the Act of 1831. I think your Lordships will agree that words to this effect will remind the people in charge that the special constabulary are confined to those duties specifically laid down in the Act of 1831, and that they are not required to perform any other duties. In these circumstances it is impossible, 389 I think, that there should be any doubt as to whether a constable called out for duty during a trade dispute can be required to take the place of any industrial worker on strike.
§ Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
§ EARL BEAUCHAMPMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Earl for meeting the point raised in Committee. It would be indeed churlish on my part if I did anything except express my thanks to him for having met our views in this way. I should naturally have preferred that the Amendment should be inserted in the Bill, but I recognise the difficulties which are involved in that course. It would, of course, necessitate the Bill being sent back to another place, with Lords Amendments. Perhaps that alone is sufficient reason; but on the Spur of the moment I am not able to express a considered opinion as to whether the words suggested by the noble Earl entirely meet the case. He will, I think, forgive me if I say I think that they do not go quite so far as we pressed the Government to go on the Committee stage. Take, for instance, the ease of a strike at electric power works. It is possible that this Regulation suggested by the noble Earl might prove a source of some difficulty and confusion. I am, however, unwilling to waste time by expressing an opinion without further consideration.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYIf the noble Earl would like time for further consideration we are willing to put off the Third Reading of the Bill till to-morrow.
§ EARL BEAUCHAMPThere is no reason for putting the Bill off, because what goes into the Regulations is different from what goes into the Bill. If, however, the Government will let me have a copy of the Regulations, then, if necessary, I may raise the matter later on in the Session.
THE EARL OF ONSLOWOf course, I shall be glad to give my noble friend an opportunity of discussing the matter in the way which he suggests.
§ On Question, Bill read 3a.
§ THE EARL OF LINDSAY had given Notice of two Amendments, namely:
- (1) After "stations" in the Title to insert ("to provide for calling up police pensioners
390 in Scotland for police duty when special constables are appointed and called out for duty"). - (2) After Clause 3, insert the following new clause:
("4. Every member of a police force in Scotland who retires on pension after the passing of this Act shall, as a condition of the receipt of pension, be liable (until he has Attained the age of fifty-five years or unless ho is certified by a medical certificate under the Police Pensions Act, 1921, to be incapacitated for the performance of duty) to be called up for duty in accordance with regulations which, in virtue of this section, there shall be power to make under the Special Constables Act, 1914, with the police force of which he was a member, during any period in which special constables are appointed and called out for duty within the county or burgh maintaining such police force.")
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Amendments which stand in my name are due to the fact that the standing joint committee of Life have had this Bill under their consideration, and they have requested me to raise the points dealt with in my Amendments. They called recently upon the chief constable of the County to make a report on the Bill. In the course of his remarks he stated that he did not consider that special constables, judging from past experience, would be effective in dealing with cases of unusual emergency, or that the present haphazard methods of relying upon outside help by requisitioning police from other counties was conducive to the security of property and the preservation of law and order. It has been the habit in the past, so far as Fife is concerned, to requisition police from outside the County, say, from Perth and Aberdeen.
§ The standing joint committee considered this and they considered whether it would not be possible to insert in this Bill some sort of provision making it incumbent upon members of "the police force in Scotland, on retirement, to be available in case of special emergency, of course within a certain limit of years. I find that the sergeants and constables now retire at sixty and inspectors and superintendents at sixty-five, or on full pension on completion of thirty years' service, and half pension after twenty-five years' service. I do not suppose that a man having five more years to serve would miss losing the full pension, so it is not likely that there will be many eases of that kind. Having regard to the fact that the local authorities constantly 391 discuss these pensions it might interest your Lordships if I gave you the rates of pensions on retirement. I find that in Scotland the constable retires on full pension of £164 13s. 4d.; the sergeant, £195; the inspector, £233 6s. 8d.; and the superintendent, £306 13s. 4d. The local authorities consider these pensions are, if anything, on the generous side, and therefore they do not think it unreasonable that on retirement a man should be liable to be called on in times of emergency for a further five years.
§ The present system is not altogether satisfactory. During the disturbance in 1920 the County of Aberdeen was called upon to supply extra police, and these had only been a few days in the county when they were withdrawn, probably for very good reasons, but, at all events, that was not a satisfactory position. There is no large industrial population, and no large town adjoining. In the case of Lanarkshire they have Glasgow to draw upon, and do draw upon it. Midlothian has Edinburgh: but Fife is entirely dependent on outside counties. Owing to shortness of time, this Bill has not been discussed by the County Councils' Association, and I do not know how other counties regard these proposals. But, having regard to the fact that my Amendments entail only some very slight modification of existing conditions, I think something of this kind might be accepted. I fully realise that it is a late stage in the proceedings to press such a matter, but, having regard to what I have said, and also to the fact that a proposal of this kind would mean a great saving of expense, I hope the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill will give the Amendments favourable consideration I may mention that on the last occasion when police were drafted into Fife the extra cost was over £3,000, and the full cost over £8,000.
§
Amendment moved—
In the title, after ("stations") in line 5 of the title insert ("to provide for calling up police pensioners in Scotland for police duty when special constables are appointed and called out for duty").—(The, Earl of Lindsay.)
§ THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAR)I sympathise with much that the noble Earl has said in support of his Amendment. I understand that his object is to secure the services of police pensioners when it is found 392 necessary to call out special constables for duty. I fully appreciate the advantage at such times of having retired men with long experience of police work. Whether the method of obtaining their services which is proposed by the Amendments would be a satisfactory one requires consideration. In any event, effect could only be given to it after the matter had been considered by police authorities generally, and I need scarcely say there would be an additional difficulty in accepting such proposals for Scotland alone. The proposal would also import a new condition into the terms on which pensions were awarded by the Act of 1921. It would only be right that the interests affected should have an opportunity of expressing their opinion. For example, it might be regarded as onerous that a retired constable residing at a distance in another district should be bound to come up for duty. Generally speaking, I think police pensioners would be prepared to offer their services when necessity arose. My own experience is that ex-constables are prepared to come forward. In present circumstances I believe that the situation would be largely met by voluntary offers of this kind, and I think it would be inexpedient, at this stage of the Bill, to attempt to deal with the matter on the lines suggested. I trust that, in view of this explanation, the noble Earl will not press his Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF LINDSAYI do not, of course, propose now to move the second Amendment in my name.
Bill passed.