HL Deb 17 July 1923 vol 54 cc1090-100

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Protection of birds according to categories.

1.—(1) For the purpose of this Act birds are divided into categories as follows:—

(2) The expression "close season" means the period elapsing between the first day of March and the thirty-first day of August, both days being included:

Provided that the close season in the case of the woodcock shall be the period elapsing between the first day of February and the thirtieth day of September.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved a manuscript Amendment, in subsection (2), to leave out "August" and insert "July." The noble Duke said: I am sorry that I was not in time to place this Amendment on the Paper, and I apologise to the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill. I do not know whether your Lordships are aware that under this Bill the beginning of the close time will be altered from July 31 to August 31. What that really means in practice is that, excepting pigeons and grouse, nothing can be shot before September 1. I have been asked to move this Amendment by a gentleman who is, perhaps, the most knowledgeable lover of birds in the whole of Scotland. It is his opinion that if the Bill passes in its present form, with the close time beginning at the end of August, it will be treated with contempt throughout the country and the whole effect of it will be lost.

Your Lordships are probably aware that the present Act is not altogether effective, for one very good reason, that in country districts and moorland districts they are quite unable to enforce it. There is a considerable amount of wild duck and even snipe shooting in August. I seldom shoot, so that I am not particularly partial in this question, but I think it would be a great pity to pass a Bill which would put everybody against the preservation of wild birds. I am told that in the Tay district there is a large amount of land which is not let to rich men but on which a large number of people, including working men, are in the habit of shooting duck and snipe in the month of August. The Bill as it stands would entirely prohibit that. It would also prohibit all shooting of birds at the mouth of the Tay and other places in their passage to their breeding ground. This is an entirely practical question, and I do not want to labour it.

I am in favour of the measure. I move this Amendment in order that the law might remain as it is, and because I believe that if it is accepted by your Lordships it will greatly improve the. Bill and help in the preservation of wild birds. However, as I was unable to give my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill sufficient notice of my intention to move this Amendment, if he is unable to accept it I do not want to take your Lordships to a Division upon it. I will withdraw in and put it down at a subsequent stage.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 3, leave out ("August") and insert ("July").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON

I recognise the spirit in which the noble Duke has moved the Amendment. I agree with him that it is very desirable to avoid anything which is likely to set public opinion against the Bill. At the same time the Bill is not the outcome of my own unaided intelligence, it is the outcome of many weeks, I think, spent by a Departmental Committee, of which I was not a member but which was composed of some of the most eminent authorities in the country on the subject of birds. Subsequently, two advisory committees—one Scottish and one English (of the latter of which I was a member); which included, especially in the case of Scotland, to which the noble Duke referred, people who were not only great lovers of birds but with very great knowledge of them—considered the subject. I cannot there fore accept an Amendment off-hand without time for consideration. I would suggest to the noble Duke that he should follow the course he has indicated, and not press the Amendment now, but give me an opportunity of discussing whether the point which he has raised can be met cither by his Amendment, or in some other way, on Report.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

I am much obliged to the noble Viscount, and beg to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to omit the following proviso at the end of the clause:--" Provided that the close season in the case of the woodcock shall be the period elapsing between the first day of February and the thirtieth day of September." The noble Duke said: I do not know why this proviso was put in, except that I believe a certain number of county councils under the present Act, prohibit shooting a woodcock till the month of October. I think that there is no very great harm in shooting a woodcock before then. I know that there are three counties in which there was this restriction. In two of them they say that the restriction was so absurd that it was never carried out, and at the end of three years they did not re-enact the provision. In the third county it still remains illegal to shoot a woodcock before the end of October, but not a single person in the whole county pays any attention to the regulation, nor has there ever been a prosecution. So far as my knowledge goes there has been, in late years, in the south of Scotland a very large increase in the number of woodcock, and if no one was allowed to shoot a woodcock before the beginning of October those who have to look after the nests to preserve the eggs of the young woodcock would never have a chance of shooting the woodcock at all, because they are away by then. Therefore, unless this proviso is taken out, it would be an absolute discouragement to anyone to preserve the nests for the breeding of woodcock. As was the case in my first Amendment, I have not given the noble Viscount sufficient notice to consider this Amendment, and if he will adopt the same course as he promised to do in the case of my first Amendment, and will consider this Amendment before the Report Stage, I shall not press it now.

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 4 to 6, leave out the said proviso.—(The Duke of Buccleuch).

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON

I Should be sorry to give up this, because the vast majority of woodcock shot in this country are undoubtedly birds from abroad, and they do not arrive in this country till October. At the same time the woodcock is a breeding species in this country. In the north of Scotland it is fairly common, but as you get further south it becomes more and more rare until, when you get to the south of England, it is very rare indeed. The object of this particular provision with regard to the woodcock is to preserve and encourage the woodcock as a breeding species in this country, and not to take a specially heavy toll of the woodcock actually bred in this country, which always must be a small number compared with the number of birds arriving from abroad. The noble Duke, when he speaks of the vast number of birds killed, does not mean that they are British bred birds, but that they are birds from abroad. I am willing, however, to give consideration to this Amendment between now and the Report Stage.

LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU

May I supplement what the noble Viscount has said? There are a large number of woodcock which breed in the New Forest, and I think it would be a great mistake if the proposal which is contained in this Rill wore not adopted. With regard to what the noble Duke has said respecting Scotland, his point might be met by having a different date for Scotland from that which would apply in England. Woodcock breed to a considerable extent in the south of England, and we are very anxious that that breeding should not be interfered with.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON had on the Paper an Amendment to move at the end of the clause to insert "later days being included." The noble Viscount said: There is a mistake in the words as they appear on the Paper. It ought not to be "later days,'' but both days" included. It is simply to make the provision with regard to the woodcock conform in wording to the provision with regard to close time breeding.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 6, at end insert "both days being included."—(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3:

Nature of protection given by Act.

(2) Where any person sells or has in his possession for purposes of sale any bird in Category I, or the plumage or skin or any part of any such bird, or the egg or nest of any such bird, it shall, unless the contrary is proved, be deemed to have been killed or taken as the case may be in contravention of this Act.

(3) Where any person is found in possession of any bird, or the plumage or skin or any part of any bird or the egg or nest of any bird, and it appears to the court before which any proceedings are taken in respect thereof that there is reasonable ground for believing that the bird, egg or nest was killed or taken at a time when it was protected under this Act, the bird, egg or nest, as the case may be, shall, unless the contrary is proved, be deemed to have been killed or taken in contravention of this Act—

  1. (a) in the case of a bird, or the egg or nest of a bird in Category I; or
  2. (b) in the case of a bird, or the egg or nest of a bird in Category II, if it is so found on any day between the fifteenth day after the beginning and the last day of the close season for that bird, both days being included; and

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON moved, in subsection (2), to leave out " in Category 1." The noble Viscount said: There are several Amendments which I have put down to Clause 3, but they all have the same object, which is really this. As the Bill is now drafted, if a person is found in possession of a bird in Category 1, or in possession of an egg or nest of a bird in Category 1, for the purposes of sale, or even if he has such a bird, nest or egg in his possession at all, there may be placed upon him the onus of proving he has got it legally. If it is in his possession, there may be placed upon him the onus of proving that he acquired the bird, or nest, or egg legally. Category I says that all birds are protected all the year round. It was thought fair in the Bill to place on anybody who was found in possession of a bird, nest or egg of a bird in Category 1 the onus of proving that it was not a British killed specimen, or that it had been taken before this Act came into force. That was thought a fair provision.

But when we come to Category 2 the birds, nests and eggs are protected only during the close season, and it is only if the bird, nest or egg is found in possession of somebody during the close season that that provision about the onus of proof operates. Take, for instance, the case of the wild goose. There is only-one species of wild goose, I believe, which breeds in this country, and there are only, one or two colonies of them. It is very desirable that this species should not become extinct as a breeding species by having its eggs raided, but, on the other hand, as soon as the close season is over, it is absolutely unreasonable that the3e wild geese should not be liable to be shot in company with the vast number of wild geese which visit this country from abroad. Therefore if a person is found in possession, in October, we will say, of a gray-lag goose which is in Category 2, it would be very unfair to place upon him the onus of proving that he had acquired the bird legally, because at any time after the expiration of the close season it was open to him to acquire the bird legally.

That is the reason why the provisions with regard to the onus of proof apply only in the close season to birds in Category 2. With regard to the eggs and nests of birds in Category 2, there is no reason why they should not have the same protection as the eggs and nests of birds in Category 1. Birds are protected only in the close season, but the eggs can only be taken in the close season, and, therefore, the eggs of birds in Category 2 are regarded under the Bill as absolutely protected as the eggs of birds in Category 1. The object of my Amendments is to give the eggs and nests of birds in Category 2 the same protection as the eggs and nests of birds in Category 1, while leaving the birds in Category 2 which can legally be killed in the close season, all the protection they have in the Bill as it stands.

Amendment moved— Clause 3, page 3, line l5, leave out ("in Category I").—(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON

My other Amendments to Clause 3 are consequential.

Amendments moved— Clause 3, page 3, line 16, leave out ("such") Clause 3, page 3, line 16, after ("bird") insert ("in Category I") Clause 3, page 3, line 17, leave out ("such") Clause 3, page 3, line 17, after ("bird") insert ("in Category I or Category II") Clause 3, page 3, line 30, after ("bird") insert ("in Category I") Clause 3, page 3, line 31, after ("Category I") insert ("or Category II") Clause 3, page 3, lines 32 and 33, leave out ("or the egg or nest of a bird") —(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

Special provisions with respect to the lapwing.

4.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, the nests and the eggs of the lapwing shall, before the fifteenth day of April in any year, be protected only against persons other than the owner or occupier.

(2) During the period elapsing between the fifteenth day of March and the thirty-first day of August, both days being in-eluded, in any year, a person shall not sell for human consumption or have in his possession for the purpose of sale for human consumption any lapwing, and if any person acts in contravention of this provision be shall be guilty of an offence against this Act.

(3) On and after the first day of May in any year, a person shall not sell for human consumption or have in his possession for the purpose of sale for human consumption any eggs of the lapwing, and if any person acts in contravention of this provision, he shall be guilty of an offence against this Act.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in subsection (3), to leave out the words "the first day of May" in order to insert "the twentieth day of April." The noble Duke said: Under this Bill the eggs of the lapwing may not be taken after April 15. It is generally admitted that the lapwing is one of the most valuable birds from the agricultural point of view, and it is one that should be encouraged. Unfortunately, its eggs are very good and fashionable; and in London you will see them on sale at very high prices. Consequently there is a great demand to collect these eggs, and various county councils in Scotland have received sanction from the Secretary for Scotland for by-laws prohibiting these eggs being taken at all between certain dates. This prohibition has been perfectly useless, because it is no use prohibiting the taking of the eggs unless you prohibit the sale as well.

The Bill prohibits these eggs being taken after April 15. That is a reasonable date no doubt, but it allows the sale of eggs up to May 1. Any one of your Lordships who consumes an egg after May I, which must have been collected before April 15, will feel that the high price charged for it is quite justified. My Amendment is to substitute April 20 for May 1. No doubt the noble Viscount has put the date in because it was recommended by the Committee, but many of your Lordships have knowledge on these matters, and it is possible that we may even improve on the recommendation of the various Committees which have considered the subject. In my own county the eggs are allowed to be collected on April 15, and my friends and myself very much enjoy them. During the war I sent some to my people at the Front in France. But in another county I am not allowed to collect these eggs. My gamekeeper does not collect them, but every single soul in the county tries to collect them and sell them. The result of my Amendment would be that they would be allowed five days in which to collect and sell these eggs, and I think that is a reasonable period. The intention of the Amendment is to strengthen, not to impair, the Bill.

Amendment moved— Clause 4, page 4, line 8, leave out ("the first day of May") and insert ("the twentieth day of April").—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

LORD SALTOUN

I should like to support the Amendment of the noble Duke. Since the present Act was passed we hardly get any plover's eggs at all in the north of Scotland. The birds lay so very late. It is the same over the whole of the north of Scotland, and I think a regulation should be made enabling plover's eggs to be taken until a later date in Scotland than in England.

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON

I am not sure that the speech of the noble Lord is exactly in" support of the noble Duke's Amendment. I propose to deal only with the Amendment, and my own personal opinion is in favour of accepting it. The dates for taking the eggs of the lapwing were gone into very carefully by the Departmental Committee, and they recommended April 15 as a suitable date for the beginning of the close season. They did so on the ground that it does not really do so much harm to take the first clutch of the eggs, because agricultural operations, which go on up to April 15, constantly destroy those eggs after the bird has begun to sit, so that in a considerable number of cases—this applies, of course, only to arable land—the first clutches of lapwings' eggs would come to nothing in any event. If the bird's eggs are taken before April 15 the lapwing will lay a second time, and, in arable districts at any rate, with a better chance of rearing its young. That is the reason for fixing the date at April 15.

It is absolutely necessary, of course, to prohibit the sale of eggs, and when May 1 was put in as the date at which the lapwing's eggs were to be no longer sold, this was done solely with a view to meeting a hypothetical outcry from the trade in these eggs, on the ground that a large number of eggs might be legally collected before April 15 and would still be available for sale as late as the end of the month in fairly good condition. I really think that it will be in the interests of the protection of the lapwing that the sale of its eggs should cease as soon as possible after the taking of the eggs has become illegal. My own personal disposition would have been to accept the noble Duke's Amendment, but as the Amendment has not appeared on the Paper, I think it would probably be best that we should treat it as his other Amendments have been treated with a view to considering them before Report.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

I beg to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 4 agreed to. Clauses 5 to 10 agreed to.

Clause 11 (Penalties, etc.):

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON

I have a drafting Amendment to this clause.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 33, leave out ("offence") and insert ("offences").—(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 12 to 16 agreed to.

Clause 17:

Application to Scotland.

17.—This Act shall apply to Scotland subject to the following modifications:—

Subsection (5) of Section eleven shall not apply;

VISCOUNT GREY OF FALLODON moved, in the second paragraph, to substitute ("4") for ("5"). The noble Viscount said: This point was raised by the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, on the Second Reading. He asked why subsection (5) should not apply to Scotland. I have ascertained that through a mistake of the printer subsection (5) was printed instead of subsection (4). The reason why sub section (4) does not apply to Scotland is that its provisions are already covered by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts for Scotland, so that the law of Scotland is already adequate on this point and it is very inappropriate that it should be repeated in this Act.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 7, leave out ("(5)") and insert ("(4)").—(Viscount Grey of Fallodon.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 18 agreed to.

First schedule: