LORD STRATHSPEYMy Lords, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in response to the continued demands of the Dominions for a share in shaping the destinies of the Empire, any definite offer, which might be considered at the Colonial Conference, has been made to them of seats in Parliament. 1502 The matter to which this Question refers is one of great importance to the whole of the Empire. It would be very interesting to know what offers have been made to the Dominions in this respect and also whether this matter is likely to be brought up and properly thrashed out at the coming Imperial Conference. Possibly, it is a matter which concerns the Dominions more intimately than this country, but in my opinion it is a matter of real moment to the whole of the Empire. In order to secure proper unity, solidarity, and perfect trust in the Empire, in my opinion we must have an Imperial Conference, or rather an Imperial Parliament, properly so described, in London. Germany attained her rank as a great Power in spite of the fact that she had only second-rate and third-rate Colonies and none that could compare with those of the British Empire.
This is not a new question. It is already a very ancient one, and I think I am right in saying that in the reign of Henry VIII the City of Calais was allotted a Parliamentary seat by that monarch. In the past many of our great men have championed this cause, but none of them was lucky enough to succeed, possibly because it was too early in the day to solve the problem. After all, no part of the Empire can get on without the other parts. I venture to say that England could not exist for more than a few weeks unless the Colonies supplied her with food and wool. At the same time the Dominions themselves could not exist without England because we know only too well that they are weak in themselves and some Power might come along and capture thorn. We all need one another's support, and any link in the chain is liable to become a weak one if this fact is ignored.
We have a wonderful Empire which contains almost every imaginable commodity, and those commodities which we do not produce could be produced in a great many cases if the effort were made. There is no reason whatever why Australia should not supply the whole of the Lancashire mills with raw cotton, and I am given to understand that Australian cotton, grown to a large extent in Queensland, is superior to foreign cotton. Australia has to work up her trade and to help and support it in many ways, but all this could be done if the matter were inquired into and 1503 thrashed out at the coming Conference, which it is hoped that statesmen from all parts of the Empire will attend. Again, there is no reason at all why New Zealand, Australia and, possibly, other Dominions as well should not grow tobacco and so oust the foreign trade Both Africa and Canada are as greatly in need of development as New Zealand and Australia. All these Dominions are capable of development. They all want settlers, but before they can attract settlers in any great number they must be properly developed. After all, the stronger the Dominions become the stronger will the Empire be. I am putting my general ideas on this subject in book form, with the title: "The Case for Colonial Representation in Parliament." I hope that all these matters will be put before the Imperial Conference and fully thrashed out there.
§ VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALLMy Lords, before my noble friend below me replies to this Question I would ask leave to say a word or two. Unfortunately, the accounts of our debates in both Houses of Parliament, and outside Parliament as well, on these great Imperial questions sometimes undergo a good deal of alteration and reduction before they reach the further parts of the Empire. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Strathspey, who has just spoken, will forgive me if I say that I should profoundly regret it if I thought that it was to go forth to the Dominions that the suggestion contained in his Question, that an offer should be made by England (using the word in the broader sense) of seats in Parliament as a means towards consolidating the Empire, represented the opinion of any considerable body of people in this country. The noble Lord said, with perfect truth, that it is desirable to find some means by which the Empire should be consolidated. With a great many of his views I find myself in entire agreement, and with his remark regarding the power of the Empire to provide for all our needs I entirely concur.
On the other hand, I cannot agree with his suggestion that an offer should be made by this country to the Dominions regarding the form which future consolidation of the Empire from a Parliamentary point of view should take. So far as seats in Parliament are concerned, the noble Lord does not state whether 1504 he means that such seats should be in your Lordships' House or in the Lower House. I may remind him and your Lordships that we already have the good fortune to have in this House as our colleagues most distinguished representatives of different parts of the British Empire. We have in the noble Lord himself one who speaks with knowledge and experience on behalf of the further parts of the Empire.
The problem, as he truly said, is no new one, and it is one of the most complicated of the many problems to which we have to address ourselves in these days. Whether the noble Duke who is at the head of the Colonial Office, and the Government of which he is a distinguished member, consider that this great constitutional question ought to be discussed at the coming Conference I cannot say, but I do know that there is abundant work for that Conference to do in the limited time at their disposal without embarking upon this most complicated question, and I desire to suggest to the Government that proposals of the character adumbrated in the noble Lord's Question would much better come from the Dominions themselves. If they think that the best way to govern the Empire is through a Parliament which contains representatives of the Dominions, let them say so. They have never said so yet.
Not only have we in this House Peers who belong to the Dominions, but in the other House there are at any rate several Members of Parliament who have spent the greater part of their lives in one or other of the more distant parts of the Empire. Merely to offer half a dozen seats in either House to the Dominions would, I venture most respectfully to say, be purely farcical, and as regards the House of Commons may I point out that there is no such thing known to our system as offering a seat? The Government cannot offer a seat. We have all known Governments who would be very glad if they could do so, and who have taken an immense deal of trouble to secure seats for some of their favourites but without any effect whatever except that of putting in the seat the last person that they would desire to see there. You have not got seats to which you can nominate members in the House of Commons. Unless you had a complete change of our constitutional system they 1505 would have to stand for election like any other Member. If you suddenly set up a sort of aldermanic system in the House of Commons it would be striking at the very foundation of our Constitution and destroying the character of the House of Commons. I venture to say that no House of Commons which is likely to be elected in our time would ever entertain such a proposal for one moment.
In that case you are driven to offering seals in this House to representatives of the Dominions. I do not think that that would meet the difficulty. I hope that in this forthcoming Conference there will be some diseassion—and I am sure there will be—as to whether it is possible ultimately to draw up a scheme which will meet our difficulties, but I confess I do not find any suggestion of a solution in Lord Strathspey's Question. Although I have given an immense amount of consideration and study to this matter, I do not see how we are going at present to get much beyond the system that we have now. I believe that the Dominions have already strengthened the position of the High Commissioners. We here have done a good deal in this direction. Incidentally, we have given them an opportunity to be present whenever they choose at the debates in the Lower House. Their general status with regard to Government Departments is very much higher than it was before the war, and I cannot help thinking that it is in the direction of the post of High Commissioner that future connection will be maintained between the Governments of the Dominions and the Government at home.
The proposal made in another quarter that a Minister should be sent over here representing his own Government is one which, I believe, would not succeed at all because a Minister's presence is only valuable so long as he is in touch with his own Government and knows from daily experience what is going on in his own country from the political point of view. The moment you bring a man over and establish him here, even for six months, you are cutting him off from daily connection with the politics of his own country, and I think the position would be no better than it is at present.
What we do want is to settle another question connected with this very great problem, and that is how we are going to take our Dominions into our confidence 1506 and get the benefit of their advice before we embark upon any policy which may result in war if, when the war conies, we have to call upon them for their aid. That is the question which has to be solved and it will not be solved by any such proposal as is made by Lord Strathspey. I believe that already steps have been taken in that direction, it is quite easy to keep the Dominions informed beforehand. We have now a cable system which is on the whole excellent and High Commissioners who can be brought into close communication at any moment. I believe it is in that direction that a solution of the problem will be found. I rose only because I should be very sorry if it went forward to the Dominions that the proposal contained in Lord Strathspey's Question has general support here. On the contrary, I believe that the universal feeling is that any proposals for Parliamentary representation or anything of that kind ought to come from the Dominions and ought not to be made by us to them.
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE)My Lords, I admit that I find myself in a rather difficult position this afternoon as the noble Earl who has put the Question on the Paper did not in his speech, directly or indirectly, refer to the subject matter of the Question, and I had made preparations to deal not with the larger issues which he was beginning to raise but with the specific point which he had placed upon the Paper. I appreciate the fact that the noble Lord takes a very great and genuine interest in the closer association of all parts of the Empire. He has personal knowledge which he is able to bring to bear on the subject and I am sure that those of your Lordships who are fortunate enough to receive a copy of the book which he proposes shortly to issue will read it with the greatest possible interest.
The subject to which he has referred in his Question on the Paper is certainly no new one. It has been discussed in a variety of forms for many years. From a purely constitutional point of view you will bear in mind that the subject of the representation of the Overseas Dominions in this House, or in the Second Chamber, was referred to, although no definite recommendation was made, in the Report of Lord Bryce's Commission in 1918. I 1507 do not think I need add anything to what has fallen from the noble Viscount, Lord Long, as to the difficulties in the way of arranging seats in another place. We are all aware of the difficulty of finding those seats, and I am afraid that. Lord Strathspey must not look to any solution of the problem in that direction; but, at any rate, on the still wider aspect, what undoubtedly Lord Strathspey had in his mind was a return to the idea—which was prevalent at one time, hut which for a considerable number of years has not, I think, been advocated in any really responsible quarter—of some Federal Parliament.
If it were necessary I could quote many speeches from distinguished Ministers from overseas in which the idea of a Federal Parliament met with complete disapproval and disavowal, and if reference is made to the Imperial Was Conference in the year 1917, it will be seen that this subject was thoroughly and exhaustively discussed. The main objection—there were many—to any idea of a Federal Parliament was that it was an infringement on the autonomous rights of the Dominions, to which both they and we attach the supremest importance. I could quote speeches from the Prime Minister of South Africa, from Sir Robert Borden, and from the then Prime Minister of Australia, Mr. Hughes, and others in which not only was any idea of a Federal Parliament disapproved of, but it was suggested that it would be almost a danger instead of an advantage. I can assure your Lordships that the questions of closer association, of the rapid transmission of news, and of seeking advice and guidance from the great Dominions overseas, will certainly be considered at the forthcoming Imperial Conference. But I am bound to say that I see no prospect whatever of any progress being made on the lines indicated by the noble Lord who placed this Question on the Paper.
§ EARL BEAUCHAMPMy Lords, your Lordships' House finds itself on this occasion in a position not wholly unusual but still somewhat inconvenient. The Question has been put down on the Paper by the noble Lord on one subject but the speech which he made dealt with another subject altogether. Were it not that I always strive to obey the Rules of order in this House I should be very much tempted to follow him in the remarks 1508 which he made about Imperial trade. But since he spoke, the debate has been raised to the, level of high constitutional authority by the noble Viscount and the noble Duke. I should not like it to go forth from this House that there is any lack of sympathy on our part with any proposal, from whatever quarter it comes, that we should be brought into closer connection with the self-governing Dominions beyond the seas. I am sure that every member of this House would be only too glad to consider in the most favourable light any plan that is suggested and, if possible with general consent, to give effect to whatever recommendations are made.
The noble Duke made special reference to Lord Bryce's Committee. I remember the discussions which took place on that Committee upon this very point. Naturally, it is not for me to say anything on the question as to how far the self-governing Dominions could be represented in another place, but the question of their representation in this House is, of course, a very much easier one and one which we are quite competent to discuss. I am inclined to think that the answer given by the noble Duke is the true answer, and that the difficulty is not likely to come from this country but rather from the self-governing Dominions. When this matter has been raised not only at the Imperial Conference to which the noble Duke made reference, but also on less formal occasions in debates in newspapers and elsewhere, we have generally found that the obstacles are raised rather from the point of view of the self-governing Dominions than from our point of view. We are always glad to see representatives of the self-governing Dominions in this country, whether they are private visitors or official representatives of those Dominions. If they put forward officially such a demand as that which is contained in the Question, I am sure that we should all be only too anxious to consider it favourably and, if it met with the approval of the Empire, to give effect to it.
LORD STRATHSPEYMy Lords, I apologise if my speech did not follow the lines indicated in my Question, and I wish to thank your Lordships very much for what has been said. I am afraid there was a slight misunderstanding. My idea of an Imperial Parliament was not 1509 of one containing a few members from the self-governing Dominions, for, after all, what effect would twenty, or thirty, or even fifty members from the Dominions in the House of Commons have in an assembly of between six and seven hundred Members? They could not do anything' at all. The idea in my mind was rather that of a true Imperial Parliament representing the whole of the Empire, each part of which might have its quota of members, and sitting in London.