HL Deb 29 May 1922 vol 50 cc848-64

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

My Lords, I submit this Bill for Second Reading. It is drafted, and deliberately drafted, in very wide and general terms. Broadly speaking, it confers upon the Secretary of State the right to enter into agreements with the Government of any Oversea Dominion, Colony, or Protectorate, or mandated territory, and in so doing to formulate schemes placing joint responsibility upon the Home Government and the Oversea Government for assisting the migration and settlement of British subjects within the Empire.

The agreed scheme may be of various descriptions. It may be a development scheme, a land settlement scheme, or actually a scheme for assisting the migration or settlement of the individuals concerned. It permits assistance to be given towards transport, or towards training, or towards initial allowances. Moreover, there are certain limited powers given in relation to loans. The Secretary of State for the Colonies, who is the responsible Minister under this Bill, is not allowed to proceed without the sanction of the Treasury in any individual scheme, and he has also to satisfy himself that the Oversea. Government is from a financial point of view co-operating as much as is laid down in the Statute, and the Secretary of State is limited to contributing not more than one-half of the total outlay.

Then, under Clause 1, subsection (3) (c), a further limitation is inserted. The Act is limited to a period of fifteen years. The amount of money to be spent is limited in the first year—that is, in the financial year current at the date of the passing of the Act—to one and a half millions sterling, and, moreover, in none of the subsequent fourteen years after the Act is passed may the Secretary of State spend more than three millions sterling, exclusive of any amount received by way of interest on, or repayment of, assistance previously made. Thus, there is a limitation of Time and a limitation of expenditure, unless Parliament were to amend the Statute and to allow larger sums to be expended. I fancy there are many noble Lords present—I notice some—who know far better than I can express the incalculable advantages which can he secured by securing the migration of suitable men from this country to His Majesty's Dominions overseas; and it is migration and not emigration. We have ceased to look upon the movement of a man, or of his children, from this country to the Colonies as emigration. It is moving from one country to another, but all within the Empire. It is Empire settlement, and I submit this Bill with the greatest confidence to the favourable consideration of your Lordships.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Crawford.)

LORD DENMAN

My Lords, the subject-matter of this Bill is so important, and its results may be so far-reaching, that I would ask leave to make a few observations upon it. In the first place, I would congratulate the Government upon its introduction. I am quite sure it will meet with approval in every quarter of the House; but while thinking of the origin of this Bill we should not overlook the excellent work done by Colonel Amery and the Oversea Settlement Committee in this direction. Colonel Amery has travelled widely in the Dominions. He knows public men there, and I think we can see the fruits of his knowledge and experience in the provisions of this Bill.

I desire to say one or two words, especially from the point of view of Australia. I fully recognise the need for settlers in all the British Dominions overseas, but f think there is no case so urgent as that of Australia at the present time. Obviously, it is desirable that men and women of British birth should emigrate to Canada, but Canada has the advantage of her proximity to the United States, and her comparative proximity to European countries, which ensure for her a considerable influx of population from those sources. The great distance which separates Australia from Europe, unfortunately, prevents her from receiving any considerable number of emigrants from other European countries, and so she is not So well situated as Canada in that respect. There is also the political aspect to consider, and that is not the same for Australasia as it was before the war. When the German fleet was sunk the centre of naval strategy shifted from the North Sea and the Atlantic to the Pacific.

Australia and New Zealand, from their isolated position in the Southern Seas, are both affected by that change. Particularly so Australia, situate within a few days steaming of great Asiatic countries, their teeming populations rapidly on the increase, and the White Australia policy barring their way to the great empty spaces of the Australian continent. I am a believer in the White Australia policy; it is ambitious, but I believe it is the right policy. But it can only be maintained and justified in the eyes of the world if Australia can achieve a great increase in her population and render her now unoccupied territory fertile and productive.

It is because I believe this Bill to be a step in that direction and regard it as giving a great opportunity to the Australian Commonwealth, that I welcome its appearance here to-day. There are advantages in the Bill for this country as well as for the Dominions. This Bill now regularises migration within the Empire, and no longer leaves it a haphazard and chance affair. It recognises that the State has obligations to our people who are migrating overseas. It is not sufficient to pay their passages, and dump them down in strange countries, without any training and without provision for employment. These things have occurred in the past, and ranch hardship has resulted in consequence of it. There has also been the action of unscrupulous emigration agents, and these poor people, after sacrificing their all to pay their passages, have found on arrival that there was no work for them. They have then drifted into the big cities, there to swell the ranks of the unemployed, very often being stranded without even the means of paying for a return passage. I hope that the passing of this Bill will prevent such cases occurring in the future.

As Lord Crawford has said, this Bill has been widely drafted. It provides the framework on which schemes of migration suitable to different Dominions can be built up, but much will necessarily depend upon its administration and the careful preparation of the schemes which are contemplated. Much also will depend upon the training which the migrants, both men and women, receive, because I think women require quite as much training as men before settling in the Dominions, and I certainly hope that under the Bill they will receive adequate training, either here or in the Dominions, before they are settled on the land. I take it that in some cases part of their training will be given in this country. If that be so I should like to press upon the Government that they should secure to that end the co-operation of two other Departments, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Agriculture. We are all aware that it is not always easy to obtain co-operation between Government Departments, but I sincerely hope that those responsible for the administration of this Bill will be successful in this respect.

The Bill also provides funds for schemes of approved organisations. I happen to be connected with an organisation that has received the approval of the Oversell. Settlement Committee, and we receive much help from them. That is an organisation called Australian Farms, a company administered by public-spirited Australians in Melbourne. There is a Melbourne gentleman now resident in London who helps at this end. It endeavours to settle on the land British ex-officers and soldiers who possess a small amount of capital. It has purchased for that purpose an estate for fruit farming and dairying in the Murray River District of Victoria. During the last eighteen months we have sent out seventy-five ex-service men, mostly officers, and the majority of them are doing well. We have been fortunate in securing for this purpose the co-operation of the Government of Victoria, of the Oversea Settlement Committee, and of the Officers' Association.

We are now, I hope, in a position to enlarge the scope of our work, as we are in treaty with the Government of India for settling on the land in the State of Victoria young British officers who are being retrenched from the Indian Service. The Victorian Government has undertaken to co-operate with us in purchasing estates, and will sell them direct on favourable terms to the settlers. Our idea is to put from fifteen to twenty of these ex-officers in a group on one estate, which will be worked as a whole until they are sufficiently experienced to enable the estate to be subdivided among them. I do not want to exaggerate the importance of a scheme of that kind, because it is a scheme that provides for men who already possess a certain amount of capital, though not very much. Any scheme of that kind can only touch the fringe of the migration problem. But I do attach importance to it in this respect, that its success—for I think we can already claim to have achieved some measure of success—shows the scope for settlement of this kind of men who may be described as of the public school type.

I should like to say one word about the public school boy in connection with migration schemes. I take it that the majority of public school boys go into the various professions, or into business, or else openings are found for them by their parents in some other direction. But there are some who are not so fortunately placed. I think that a public school boy, about seventeen or eighteen years old, of good physique, accustomed to open air life, and with a training in games and gymnastics, is just the type you want to make a good settler if—and we must always insist upon this proviso—he receives technical training and acquires the special knowledge to fit him for such a life. There is one public school, and one only, so far as I am aware, that gives such training to boys, and that is Christ's Hospital School. I should like to make this suggestion to the noble Earl and the Government. I think they might, under this Bill, enable some of the lads from this school to settle overseas. I am sure if some of them were given a chance of being settled overseas it would be a very excellent thing for the Empire. It would also, I think, encourage other public schools to follow the good example that has been set by Christ's Hospital School.

Now, I would draw attention to the question of medical examination in the Dominions. These examinations are very strictly carried out. When migrants arrive at the ports of debarkation they undergo a very strict medical examination. I make no complaint of that. There have, however, been some very hard cases in the past, owing to migrants who have gone to their doctors in this country and undergone only a very cursory medical examination perhaps, being refused admission by the medical authorities when they have arrived in one of the Dominions. There is an even harder case—that of the man who has gone out and left his wife and children to follow, and they have been found unfit by the medical authorities in the Dominions. That, of course, has spelled disaster for that particular household.

The Commonwealth Government have lately appointed medical referees in this country to whom intending migrants may apply for examination. They charge a very small fee for such examination. I understand that other Dominions are following their example. But the migrant has still to pass the medical authorities at the ports. I should like to make a suggestion to the Dominion Governments. Unless these migrants should contract an illness on the voyage out—which sometimes is the case—I suggest that the examination by the referee in this country should be regarded by the medical authorities at the ports of debarkation as final. Your Lordships are well aware of the power that the Labour Parties possess in the Commonwealth and in the States of Australia, and if you can secure, as I hope you will secure, the co-operation of the Australian Labour Parties for this measure you will enhance the good work that I hope it is going to achieve.

VISCOUNT LONG OF WRAXALL

My Lords, I desire to say how cordially I support the Government in the policy which finds expression in the Bill now under your Lordships' consideration. I thoroughly believe, with the noble Lord who has just spoken, and who has made such an interesting contribution to the discussion, that a great debt of gratitude is due to Colonel Amery for the work that he has done in preparing this Bill, and also in dealing with this question as chairman of the Committee which has been in existence now for some little time. This movement took shape when I was at the Colonial Office, but it was not possible then, during the war, to formulate schemes such as this, which have now become possible.

I particularly rejoice that the Government have produced a scheme of this kind, because it is the first time that any Government in this country has recognised the plain fact which stares us all in the face, though we may not hitherto have cared to realise it, that if you are going to deal with the growing population of this country, with its limitation of area, and consequently to a large extent limitation of employment, you can only do so by a wise, generous and well-thought-out scheme of migration. I congratulate His Majesty's Government upon the fact that their Bill to-day meets with a very different atmosphere from that which was to be found in this country twenty-five years ago. I remember having to examine this question more than twenty-five years ago when I was Under-Secretary in Lord Salisbury's second Administration, and I came to the conclusion that the policy which was then pursued by this country was an altogether mistaken one. It consisted in sending out, with indifferent financial assistance, men, women and children who often were by no means satisfactory representatives of our race and of the class to which they belonged. The result of that was to produce a feeling of hostility to the emigrants (as they were then called, or migrants as I am happy that they are now called), sent out by us. All that is changed and that hostility no longer exists.

Shortly after the time to which I have referred, when I was in Opposition in another place, I remember making some remarks very similar to those which I have just had the honour of making to your Lordships, and they were received partly with ridicule and partly with contempt. I recollect one speech in particular in which it was declared that I was trying, by means of my suggestions, to drive working men out of their own country and away from their own homes. I need not tell your Lordships that I had no such desire. If this country were big enough to offer a field for all who are born within its shores I would not, for the sake of the country, suggest changes such as those which are to be found in the Bill. But the country is not big enough for that purpose, and we have to recognise the fact and to act accordingly. The fact is realised to-day, I believe, as it has never been realised before.

The noble Lord who has just addressed your Lordships spoke with personal experience of Australia in which he rendered service both to the Empire and to Australia, and I do not blame him for claiming priority on behalf of Australia. But he seemed to me to assume, somewhat erroneously I think, that the difficulties of Canada are not nearly so great as those of any other part of the British Empire, because of the fact, to which he referred, that owing to her propinquity to this and other countries Canada is able to get a supply of residents which is denied to Australia, New Zealand and the Colonies and Dominions which are further afield. That is an advantage, no doubt, up to a certain point, but from the Empire point of view I submit that it is a disadvantage, because there is a constant flow into the fruitful lands of Canada of men who have no sympathy with the British Empire, some of whom are actually opposed to the British Empire, and who, if a moment of difficulty comes to the Empire, are not to be found aiding and supporting her as are those of our own blood. We have immense territories not only in Australia, but elsewhere. We have in Canada a population of under ten millions, and yet there is an area there big enough to accommodate at least the population which inhabits the United States of America. As my noble friend, Lord Seaborne, knows better than I do, there is a great deal of territory available in South Africa, and I do not believe there is any fair comparison to be made between the different Dominions of the Crown. They all need migrants from this country to take up their unoccupied land and to cultivate it to the advantage of the Dominion in question and of themselves.

As perhaps your Lordships will have realised, I look at this matter far more from the Empire and home point of view than from that of any particular Dominion. If this Empire is to continue to grow in strength, in influence and in importance, as I am convinced she will do, I believe that wise methods must be devised by which she can transfer her surplus population front those spots which are already overcrowded to those in which there is, happily, abundant open space. That is what I find in the Bill which the noble Earl has introduced to-day. I hope it will have a rapid passage into law, and I believe when it is in working order it will have a wonderful effect upon some of the most urgent social problems of the present moment. I hope that all those evils to which Lord Denman referred a moment ago—the unscrupulous agents not only advertising what did not exist, but getting hold of ill-informed men and women and depriving them of their last farthing—all those terrible things that happened not so long ago—are over for ever, and that we are now starting on a new era altogether.

If these plans are to be successful, I am sure that the advice given by the noble Lord to His Majesty's Government is sound advice which they will do well to consider carefully. It is not easy to overcome at once the difficulties connected with the settlement of people in a strange land. In Canada I have gone to the station to witness the arrival of migrants from this country; I have seen them received and disposed of for the time being, and ultimately moved on to their settlements; and I feel bound to pay a tribute of admiration and of gratitude to the Salvation Army for the work which they have done in many parts of the world. I have seen that work being done, and it is most admirably conducted. It is necessary in some cases, I believe, that the men sent out should be given employment there before they are definitely placed on the land. If that can be arranged, as it can in many cases I am sure, it will be to their advantage. These are all details which I ought to apologise for raising on Second Reading, but I have taken an active interest in this question for more than a quarter of a century, and I really could not forbear the gratification of offering my congratulations to His Majesty's Government and saving how heartily I welcome this new and, as I believe, most beneficent departure.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

My Lords, I do not rise to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill because I am in hearty agreement with the general principles enunciated by my noble friend, Lord Crawford, and my noble friend, Lord Long, but I want to draw the attention of this House and of those outside this House to an aspect of the working of the Bill to which attention ought to be drawn and which, so far, has largely escaped notice.

The noble Viscount, Lord Long, talked of the migration of some of the finest specimens of our congested population to the empty spaces of the Empire. We can all absolutely agree to that. But where is our congested population? It is in the I great cities. Colonel Amery said that we were only going to send our best, and we all agree with that. We know that there are many representatives of our race of whom we have every reason 10 be proud who find the competition for life in the great industrial centres very hard, and my wholehearted sympathy goes with any attempt to find them a better opportunity in the empty spaces overseas, but, so far as I understand the attitude of the Dominion Governments, they do not want that kind of population at all. I am told that at the present moment some of these Governments will admit only either domestic servants, or agricultural labourers, or farmers. There is no congested population in our rural area, and that brings me to the aspect of the case to which I want to draw attention.

It is only three or four years ago that the Government, from every platform—and nobody more so than the Prime Minister—laid emphasis on the need for increasing our rural population and for increasing our agricultural production. We know the whole story. That policy was launched; and very shortly after shipwrecked and withdrawn altogether on the ground of financial stress. I am not going to reopen that question, but I want to point out that the effect of this Bill may be not to migrate from our great cities those whom we should like to see moved, but to tempt away from our agricultural population some of our very best agricultural labourers and farmers; in fact, to depopulate still further our rural areas, and still further to diminish our home production.

What is most extraordinary of all, the House will remember that when the agricultural policy was changed the Government announced a grant of £1,000,000, I think, for agricultural education. May it not very well be that under the policy of this Bill many of these young agricultural labourers and farmers who received those special advantages offered by this grant from the Government will be the very men chosen to be migrated to the Dominions? Therefore, the result of this policy may be further to depopulate our agricultural area, further to diminish our home production of food, and further to increase the production of food overseas which will be competing in these markets with home production? I wish I did not think that might be the result of a Bill with the general object of which I am in such hearty concurrence. It would not necessarily be the result if the Dominions were willing to welcome all able-bodied Britons of good character. But the point upon which I wish to lay stress is that that is not so and that it is only the agriculturists and the domestic servants who are going to be admitted. It is an extraordinary irony of fate that a Government which started with a policy of increasing our rural population and increasing our home production should end with a Bill which may have the result, and I fear will have the result, of decreasing our rural population, and decreasing our home production.

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

My Lords, may I add my humble tribute to the general chorus of approval which has been meted out to this measure? I rise really with the object of asking the noble Earl in charge of this Bill a question. Your Lordships will notice that in Clause 1 a scheme can be formulated for affording joint assistance to suitable persons in the United Kingdom who intend to migrate. That term "suitable person" is a very wide one, and I am wondering whether it would include a certain class of young men who might benefit very considerably under this scheme if there was no age limit in the Bill. I am referring to boys and young men of sixteen, seventeen, eighteen and nineteen years of age, who might benefit very much under such a scheme if they were to be taken out of their evil surroundings and were recommended by some suitable philanthropic society as persons who should he able to go out and start life afresh under the scheme of this Bill. I hope the noble Earl may be able to give me sonic assurance that these boys, on behalf of whom I plead, may be included under the class "suitable persons."

LORD LAMINGTON

My Lords, I desire to ask a question arising out of remarks made by Lord Denman, who stated that migrants to Australia have found on arrival that there was no work for them; that they have been stranded, and had to pay their passages back. I should like the noble Earl to say whether, in fact, there are at the present time any number of such migrants, and what number are returning from Australia because they have been unable to find employment? If there are numbers of such men we should like to know the reason of their having to come back to this country.

VISCOUNT NOVAR

My Lords, I heartily congratulate the noble Earl and His Majesty's Government on the introduction of this Bill. The terms of it may be regarded as somewhat vague, but perhaps at the present stage that is only prudent. The sum of money available is limited, but, having regard to the present financial position of the country, perhaps it is a matter for satisfaction that the sum available is so much as it is. I hope that later it may be possible to make larger provision. Allusion has been made to various schemes of settlement. I should hope that the staff required at home for the purpose of organising migration may not be unduly large, and that the money available will go rather to assist migrants than to maintain another large Government office in this country. Most of the information required can be got from the Dominions, especially after the experience thay have had of settling ex-soldiers on the land.

It is no doubt to be regretted, as the noble Earl who spoke just now said, that we should lose any of our country population. Nothing could be more regrettable than that, the population being already too small. But the hard facts of the present situation point to a reduction of the country population. The abandonment of the policy to which the noble Earl referred, and the pressure of rates and taxes, are tending to turn the country into grass. A certain number of men who found employment in the woodlands have had to quit their employment. Many men accustomed to kill rabbits in this country, who might have an opportunity to follow their occupation in some other portion of the Empire, are also out of work. There are several classes of the community who live in villages who will have to leave the country. The whole population of the country under the present burden of taxation and the abandonment of the Agricultural Holdings Act of last year is bound to diminish, and, as the people cannot get employment here, there is a growing surplus which will be available for the policy which the noble Earl has sketched out.

There are also the ex-officers, to whom my noble friend opposite referred, who are being settled partly by private enterprise, and certainly there is no better scheme than that under which ex-officers are being settled by organisations with which he is associated. It is on limited lines, and perhaps the Government may be able to extend the system. There is another class, the younger boys who are leaving public schools in England, many of whom will find it difficult to obtain employment here. Many of them are going as clerks in the great banks and insurance companies who would probably prefer to go upon the land. They would possess a certain amount of capital and be in a different position from those who went out from the towns in the old days as emigrants. I do not think such boys could get their training in this country, but if they were entered in the agricultural colleges in the Dominions and had their training there they would be able to make their way in the Dominions just as well as the boys who are already in those colleges. That is one avenue by which migration from this country could be extended. They would be the very best of the land, and a great asset to the Dominions.

I am a little sceptical about bringing many Departments into co-operation for the training of migrants or for superintending their health. That can be done by the different Dominion establishments in London with the help of the limited number of officials in the Overseas Department. The training in the Dominions is everything. I agree with the observation that all the Dominions should have an equal claim. In Australia, by the storage of water and the unification of railways, there may be provided a great opening for a flood of migrants. There, and elsewhere, great care is needed, but if the Dominion establishments in London co-operate with the Department in charge of this Bill I doubt whether any elaborate scheme for training in this country, or anything else connected with their migration, is necessary.

THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE

My Lords, I hope I may be allowed to add one word in support of this Bill and to thank the Government for having brought it forward. It is certainly time that steps were taken in the Dominions and in the old country for dealing in a thorough and systematic manner with this big question. I realise and acknowledge the importance of what Lord Selborne has said in reference to the withdrawal of a large number of men from agriculture here, but we have to take this question at rather an earlier stage.

I should not like to deprecate the work which could be done by a well-trained and skilful agriculturist in this country, but one of the difficulties he would have to contend with in the Dominions is that from Ms standpoint, from his practice in agriculture, there may be a good deal he would have to unlearn before he could adapt himself to the somewhat unusual conditions in which he would find himself, For instance, in Canada there is an entirely different system of farming in the East and West, and the man who has had his training in Eastern Canada has practically to begin again before he is capable of dealing successfully with the altered and changed conditions he finds on moving further West.

May I be allowed to remind your Lordships that there are many other great developments to which we can look forward with confidence in Canada. At the moment the financial and social conditions are such as to make it undesirable that there should be a large entry of mechanics and artisans, but, in Canada, at no very distant date, there will be a great development of her mineral wealth and of the lumber industry. Great as has been the lumber industry in the past, and still is, Canada will be for many years, as the country gets more and more opened up, a centre from which there will be a still greater flow of finished and unfinished lumber materials. There is not the slightest reason why, with a little training and a little practice, a man who may not be qualified for agriculture should not be capable as well as any one else of doing work in the lumber industry. In the mineral industry, when conditions which are prevalent throughout the world become more stable, there is bound to be a very big development, and I am sure there will be an opening, when that industry is further developed, for other classes of the community besides those connected solely with agriculture.

I hope that the Bill will justify the expectations we have of it. We have to begin slowly, but this is a step decidedly in the right direction and one on which I am sure your Lordships will congratulate the Government and give it your most cordial support.

Loan RAGLAN

My Lords, I hope the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will say one word about Clause 2. Most of the protected and mandated territories are in the Tropics, and few of them are suitable for white settlement. The settlement of Australia and Canada is, of course, of far greater importance.

THE EARL OP CRAWFORD

My Lords, I ask leave to refer to one or two of the points made in the discussion. As regards the protected and mandated territories Clause 2 is an enabling clause. There may be a Protectorate where emigration would be useful, notably in Africa, places like Togoland, but, of course, it cannot be contemplated that a tithe of those who go overseas under this Bill will go to Protectorates. We assume that it will be in the great Dominions that they will find their ultimate homes.

With regard to Lord Denman's question about public schools the Overseas Settlement Committee reported on that point, and I will read a passage from the Report showing how very much alive they are to the problem. They say— There is general agreement that these (Christ's Hospital) and other similar schools, indeed all the secondary and public schools throughout the country, could provide the Dominions with admirable recruits.… The Committee are anxious to do all in their power to facilitate and encourage settlements of this nature. The Committee is in close touch with charitable organisations, such as Dr. Barnardo's Home which concerns itself especially with the education and training of the young, and Lord Shaftesbury may be reassured that there is no age limit in this Bill. The word "suitable" does not preclude a child being sent out. It applies to a child, adult, and anybody who is considered suitable.

The second point that Lord Denman raised concerned medical examination. He is quite right in telling your Lordships that in old days it frequently happened that a wretched man with a family was induced by some speculative person to spend his money upon transport overseas, and, on arrival there, found himself rejected. Nothing could be more cruel and discreditable. It is still happening to-day, though not in British Dominions. It is actually true that men are being repatriated from abroad because they have been taken out on false pretences. The Committee and Colonel Amery are very conscious of this difficulty also. So are the Dominions, and every effort is being made to prevent any recurrence of this trouble. The Commonwealth, which has taken a very active part in this settlement throughout, has arranged to appoint medical referees throughout the United Kingdom to give certificates to these men before they depart. Lord Denman referred to that point, bat he did not say that the Commonwealth Government itself is appointing these people. The Commonwealth Government, therefore, is responsible for their verdicts and diagnoses, and, although I have nothing in this Report to tell me so, I assume that a certificate given by way of these referees appointed by the Commonwealth Government will hold good until the end of the journey, unless, of course, some infectious disease develops in the meantime. The Commonwealth Government alone is appointing 1,500 of these men, and I hope that the system of medical referees will be extended, and will prevent any recurrence of the very real difficulty to which Lord Denman referred.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

Do I gather that the Dominion of Canada has taken this step?

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD

I have no record of what the Canadian Government has done, but it is obvious good sense, and remember, also, that the Dominion or Commonwealth or Union Government is going to pay at least one-half the outlay of this country. It is good sense from their point of view, as well as ours, and I cannot help feeling that Australia has laid down a line of policy on medical matters which everybody else will have to follow who wish to come into this scheme.

Lord Lamington referred to migration from Australia. I have no figures to give, but it must in any case be a very small percentage. In all probability, if Lord Lamington investigates the subject he will find that people coming back from Australia are very likely people who ought never to have gone there, and certainly are not people who have gone under the joint supervision of the Overseas Settlement Committee and the Commonwealth Government. There will always be unsuitable migrants, and all I can say is that the whole scheme underlying this Bill will tend to reduce undesirable migration to the smallest possible compass.

Let me say one word about Lord Selborne's speech, to which Lord Novar also referred. There is, of course, no desire underlying this Bill to take away farm labourers or young farmers from this country, still less to depopulate our country areas. But migration, whether from rural England to rural Australia, or from rural England to urban England, will always take place if and when the agricultural industry is depressed, just in the same way that in certain industrial parts of the country during last year there was a curious migration of men from the collieries to rural occupations, again for purely economic reasons. If the industry of farming in this country is depressed, we cannot prevent men moving, either to the towns, which, I think, is probably undesirable, or to pursuits of husbandry overseas, which, in my opinion, is one of the best things they can do. I feel convinced, moreover, that, even if it had proved possible to maintain the agricultural development policy of the Government, migration to outlying parts of the Empire would have continued, none the less, among agricultural labourers and young farmers. I am convinced that the desire to go would have been strong, perhaps overwhelming, notwithstanding the prosperity of the industry at home.

This Bill will at least ensure, if and when such persons do migrate to other portions of the Empire, that they will he given a fair chance, and will be watched over by the paternal interest of the oversea Government. The advantage to them is that, if they wish to get on to the land here they can only do so at the cost of dispossessing somebody else, whereas in the Oversea Dominions there is ample free land, and splendid land, already at their disposal. These are the only general questions which I noted. I thank your Lordships very heartily for the kind reception you have given to this Bill. It is a striking thing that a Bill, modest as is this Bill in its character, should receive such warm-hearted and sincere support from members of your Lordships' House who have been responsible in this country for looking after Dominion interests, and from Peers who themselves have governed Dominions in every corner of the British Empire.

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.