HL Deb 11 May 1922 vol 50 cc397-419

LORD CARSON had given Notice to call attention to the treatment of British subjects in Ireland. The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I make no apology for inflicting upon your Lordships a second speech on the matter regarding which I have placed a Notice upon the Paper. I can assure your Lordships that I ant not going back on any part of our old controversy. The truce, as it was called, and the Bill are passed. The Government are irretrievably committed to the policy of that Act. They have withdrawn their troops and all protection from their adherents in Ireland, and that is the situation we have to accept. Let us see how British subjects are still getting on there. I said a few moments ago that it is five months since the Treaty was passed, and I cannot help thinking that it is a lamentable reflection that out of all that abject surrender we never got peace for one man.

My speech this afternoon will, I hope, be short, but the meaning of it is this. You have gone out of Ireland, and you have set up nothing in your place. Let us be under no delusion; let us try to see a real picture of Ireland, however poorly I may portray it; and let us then ask the Government how that situation is going to be dealt with. We hear a good deal about a Provisional Government, for whom we passed a Bill, to whom you have handed over arms, and who, you say, are the Government of Ireland. It is perfectly plain to anybody who is following what is going on in Ireland that there is no Government at all. I have no doubt the Prime Minister was perfectly genuine at the moment, with that enthusiasm which always follows upon a new surrender—I have no doubt he was perfectly sincere and enthusiastic—when he thought of the great joy that this surrender would bring to everybody, and the impassioned loyalty that in the future we should receive from Ireland.

But what is the condition of affairs? Many people think that there is a contest going on, and that this is the whole matter of dispute between Mr. Collins and his Party, as representing the Provisional Government, and Mr. de Valera, as representing a Republican Party who are opposing the Treaty. That is a very, very small part of what is going on in Ireland. But those two Parties have each paralysed the other. In addition, throughout Ireland there are independent armies all operating on their own, and doing locally exactly what they please in the way of handing over the property of one set of men to the other. Look at Dublin. Do you tell me that there is a Government in Dublin? If there is a Government in Dublin why are the Four Courts allowed to remain in the hands of a Republican Army which has no connection even with Mr. de Valera? He is out on his own with his army. He has ousted the Judges appointed by His Majesty, who were handed over by the so-called Treaty to the Provisional Government. This army is in possession not only of the Law Courts, but of the offices. They are in possession of all the records under which minors, cestui que trusts, and other people entitled to properties administered by the Court, receive their moneys. If all those documents were destroyed it would throw into utter chaos every one of the estates concerned.

And yet we are told that there is a Government in Dublin! What are they doing, and why do they not put an end to such a state of affairs? The truth is that there is no Government, as I said before. Almost every important house in Dublin is in the hands of one army or the other. They have seized the offices of the Port and Docks Authority.

THE EARL OF MAYO

They have given them up now.

LORD CARSON

But they had seized them. They have seized the Masonic Hall, they have seized the Kildare Street Club where a few remaining Irish landlords, who, I suppose, wished to die in Ireland as they have lived there, used to congregate. A member of your Lordships' House was reading a book in the library—I believe there is a very good library there—when a man came up with a revolver in his hand and told him to go down and turn out; and he had to obey. That is not nearly all. These armies go out every morning to the shops and requisition what food is necessary to carry on. Of course, they do not pay for it. It is not that the Government cannot find out who is doing this sort of thing, because it is done in broad daylight. If there is the slightest hesitation on the part of a shop assistant to comply with the requisitions the revolver is immediately placed upon the counter. Then practically every night there is firing in the streets all through the night.

But that is not the worst. I will tell your Lordships what they have begun to do within the last few weeks. They are now taking the families of those who are out of work, or families they want to oblige, or through whom they want to show their power, and bringing them up to your house or mine if we happen to be fortunate enough to be residents of Dublin. They knock at the door and say: "This is a family out of work. You are to take them in and keep and support them until it is convenient for us to get them something to do." Just imagine the sort of life that people are living in Dublin. Then, going down from the town to the country, I wonder whether your Lordships know that, without dwelling upon murders or outrages which are innumerable, five Protestants were murdered in south-west Cork on April 27. To show what sort of people the victims were, I know that one of them was a most respectable solicitor of many years' standing. He was 72 years of age. Another man who was murdered upon that occasion was 83 years of age. They might have allowed him to live out the few years which at best could have remained to him, but they shot him dead. These are matters which, if you took each one and examined into the horror of it, I dare say would be very moving; but they are only incidents in the general terror which is being caused.

What they are doing is this. They are, without the passing of any law by the Provisional Government or by any Government, whenever they choose, walking into any house, whether it be a gentleman's residence, or a farmer's residence, or a shop, and saying: "Within one hour you turn out and we will put in somebody in your place." These are not isolated cases. There are things that go on every day. I have here a list of men who on one estate alone were all given notice to clear out, and they all cleared out. I do not think I was ever more touched than I was the other day. I was down in the country far away in Kent. I drove up to my own door and found an old Irishman there who had come all the way from a county in Ireland to ask me, on behalf of himself and a number of other Protestants on a particular estate, what they were to do. What he told me was this. He said: "I have been there for thirty years; I have ten children. I have received this notice, and every other Protestant tenant in the district has received a similar one: You are requested to leave the house now held by you on or before the 26th instant. If you remain in possession of said house you will be evicted therefrom not later than above date. By Order." I could give your Lordships lists of houses and demesnes which have been taken over, but it is of no use doing so, and of farms where the whole stock has been taken away.

I have here a letter which was sent me by a bank director in Ireland yesterday, enclosing copy of one received from one of his branch managers:— 3rd May, 1922. Gentlemen,—I think it well to let you know that our good customer, Mr. X., was served with a notice from the I.R.A. last Saturday to give up all his farms and stock and shops with ever thing contained therein; also his private dwelling house in fact, even thing belonging to him; and was only given one hoar to clear. He had to comply with the order. He is at present staying in a hotel here. The amount of property sized would I am sure amount to over£20,000. The reason given for this seizure is the happenings in Belfast. These are matters of which you hear, or of which you can hear, but I would ask your Lordships to picture in your minds what must be the state of nerves and health of the people whose daily lives are lived in the midst of such happenings, no man knowing the moment his own door will be knocked at, and he be the victim. Far better that he should be dead. What is the result? You have London and English places crowded at the present moment with refugees. What are they to do? Surely the Government ought to face the matter.

Let me refer to one other case. That which I am depicting in a few words in regard to individual cases represents what is going on everywhere. That is what I wish to impress upon this House. I have a letter, a graphic letter, written, but not to me, by a man who dared to resist. His house was attacked, and there was no one there but himself and a boy. They were awakened by a battering at the door, and eventually they went down into the hall with revolvers. The door was finally broken open, and-ten men were there with bombs. They shot the first three who came in, and wounded one more, and the others went away leaving the bombs behind them. What do your Lordships think is the fate of those men who dared to defend themselves? Of course, they are refugees for evermore from their home and their property. They will have to lose their identity in some way or other or they will be followed and slaughtered because they dared to defend their homes which were once under the protection of the British Government.

What I want to ask the Government is this. How is this problem going to be dealt with? It is no use saying: "We do not want to encourage a general exodus from Ireland." I ask the Government to give these people a lead as to what they ought to do. After being faithful to British rule for all these years, and fighting your battles—and these are the men who did fight—surely it is not much to say: "What do you advise us to do? Do you advise us to stay here till we are shot, or till we die of our nerves as a consequence of this terrible treatment, or do you advise us to emigrate to England? And if we go there, how shall we be supported?" What you are saying to these people really is: "We do not care what happens to you." Ireland, as the Colonial Secretary said, must be worse before it is better. Probably so, but the price that is paid is paid in the lives and the misery not of those men who fought against you, and now fight amongst themselves, and who are preventing government, but in the lives of the men who not only supported your Government when it was in power there, but who, when you told them they were to be handed over to this Provisional Government under the treaty of surrender, were willing to accept that so long as their lives and property might be saved.

I hope peace will come, and I can look forward to the time when these great statesmen will be saying: "Look how peaceful Ireland is now." Yes, I hope it may be so, but it will be at the cost of the annihilation of every friend you have. Is the British Government, is the British Empire, so hopeless, so devoid of gratitude, so devoid of honour, that they cannot even conceive any method to alleviate the sufferings of these unfortunate people? I shall be told: "You must have patience." It is no good telling these people that they must have patience. Patience for what? To see their property taken away, and themselves driven out or killed? "You must have patience till there is an Election"—an Election which you put off for three months, prolonging the agonies of these poor people. What Election? An Election held in these circumstances would be a perfect farce.

I wish that I was not brought into daily contact with these old friends of mine who swarm to me in England. I had a deputation the other day from one of the counties in the North, outside the Six Counties. They came to me in the most honourable way, and said: "What are we to do now? What is the line we had best take? Are we to support the Free State in that little part of the county where we are probably strong enough even to run a candidate of our own on proportional representation, or are we to support de Valera?" I said to them: "What would you run your candidate as?" They said—and it only shows how hard old opinions die—"Oh, as a Unionist." "What," I said, "in the midst of a county full of de Valera's men and Collins' men ! Do not," I added, "trouble about Unionism any more. It is not you who have hauled down the Union Jack; it is the Government." I gave them this advice as the only advice I could think of—"Do nothing, keep your counsel to yourselves. If you support the Free State you will be murdered by de Valera's followers, or some other I.R.A. men, and if you support de Valera you will probably be murdered by the other side." That is the condition of affairs that exists in Ireland to-day. Property is changing hands every hour without the law, very often without even the knowledge of the Provisional Government. My point is that what you have set up there is hopeless and unequal to doing anything to remedy the situation.

All the time this is having a reaction upon Ulster whose Parliament was opened by the King exactly a year ago. Of course, horrible things have occurred there, but it is all the re-echo of this same policy. I am not talking in any spirit of hostility to the Government. I fought my battle as well as I could; but they have created the situation, and have persisted in it, and we have to accept it. But, knowing as I do these men on both sides, I cannot but lament the grave mistake you made in leaving open this sore of the border line between these two Parliaments; a daily encouragement to the one side to terrorise, and a daily encouragement to the other side to mistrust even you who are the supreme Government in Ulster in the last resort. To-night I am merely asking that the situation should be faced. I ask that these wounded soldiers of your policy should be considered not as mere items, not as atoms or eyphers in your body politic, but as human beings, suffering as no other men or women have ever suffered under the British flag.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, in a powerful and sombre speech the noble and learned Lord has depicted the conditions which undoubtedly exist over a considerable part of Ireland to-day. In the course of his observations he illustrated his point by citing the case of a constituency in which he was asked to offer advice as to whether or not a candidate should be run as a Unionist. If I understand the situation of that particular constituency the fact is that no one would have a chance of being returned there except under one of two contingencies, either that he was a supporter of the Provisional Government, or a supporter of Mr. de Valera. If that is a true index of the state of political opinion in that constituency it was not a very practical proposal that a candidate should be put forward who called himself a Unionist. And the difficulty felt in this case is, indeed, fundamental, and has for a long time been fundamental, in dealing with the whole of the South of Ireland. In other words, with the exception of the University seats, it has been for many years impossible to put forward in any part of the South of Ireland, with the slightest chance of success, a candidate calling himself a Unionist. I do not deal with the case of any particular constituency, but if the average election is taken that is almost the truth.

It is this circumstance which more than any other has provided an argumentative basis for those who have contended over a long period of time that at least in that part of Ireland where it is true that no Unionist candidate has any chance of being returned there should, in some form or other, in some degree or other, be committed to them the guidance of their own affairs. The old controversy was whether the predominance of this Party in the South entitled them to extend their domination to the North, where it was not even pretended that they were anything but a relative minority. The bitterest of our controversies for many years raged round this one aspect of the problem, and the number of those who contended that if it were possible to isolate the problem of the North from the problem of the South there was, nevertheless, a strong case for giving some form of self-government to the South, would never have been found to have been relatively high in either House of Parliament.

We are all aware of the history of the last seven or eight years in Ireland. The noble and learned Lord has said with perfect truth that terrible things are being suffered by a class of the population whom he rightly calls loyalists, sufferings not only in relation to their property but also in relation to their persons. That is perfectly true. But let us attempt to present a complete picture of Ireland to-day, wherever the responsibility may be. That is the case which I have argued before in this House, and am prepared to argue now and hereafter. Let us attempt to see the situation which exists not only over a single part of Ireland but over the whole of Ireland. Lord Carson has said with truth that terrible and appalling things have taken place in Belfast. He says they are the reaction of that which has taken place in the rest of Ireland. I am not concerned to dispute or to confirm that opinion, but it is true that Catholics, in circumstances revolting to every humane man, have been done to death in the North of Ireland in the last few months and even in the last few weeks. It is equally true that in other parts of Ireland Protestants, by what is described as a "pogrom," have been murdered in circumstances of terrible barbarity.

Side by side with these detestable outrages, in which Protestants have, murdered Roman Catholics in Belfast in the name of God Almighty, and in other parts of Ireland Roman Catholics have murdered Protestants on purely religious grounds, you have had going on in Ireland during the last three months isolated cases of encounters between military representatives of the Provisional Government and the soldiers who support Mr. de Valera. There was a case the other day in which three or four of the regular troops of the Provisional Government were shot outright as the result of a murderous assassination by a body of soldiers supporting Mr. de Valera. Not long ago, in a concerted assault which was made by troops who acknowledged allegiance to the Provisional Government upon troops who are supporting the opposite cause, as many as five soldiers of the. Provisional Government were killed and nine or ten seriously wounded.

All these things have taken place, and it is the fact that in certain moods, and at certain periods, the Irish people will be found capable in moments of excitement, religious or political, to commit murders. If you go to an ordinary meeting, either in Belfast or in Dublin, instead of marking approval of the rhetorical or other contribution that is made by the speaker, forty per cent, of the crowd will produce revolvers from their pockets and fire them in the air. It is unquestionably true that Ireland has not kept pace in the development and improvement of its civilisation in any part of that country with the improvement and the progress that have taken place in the other parts of the British Dominions. The very illustrations that were given by the noble and learned Lord of that which is taking place in Dublin at this moment show the extraordinary perversity and addiction to paradox of his fellow countrymen, because be it observed—so far as I understand that to which he calls attention, and it is indeed remarkable in the history of a revolutionary movement—this attack is not directed in any special degree at the Protestant section of the population.

What has happened? Except in comic opera it could not happen in any country in the world but Ireland. The Provisional Government—and I will say something in a moment as to the circumstances in which they are addressing themselves to their task, and as to the prospect, be it good or bad, that they will prove equal to that task—the Provisional Government at the present moment is nominally the responsible authority for maintaining the Government of the South of Ireland with such resources as are available to it.

The noble and learned Lord is perfectly right when he says that a military section of the population which does not owe allegiance either to Mr. Collins or to Mr. de Valera has, not without some sense of humour, descended upon the Four Courts, the place where the laws are administered, the seat of the Judges, the traditional sanctuary of the Irish race, and is there maintaining itself. As the noble and learned Lord rightly said, they make occasional forays. They make them upon the neighbouring shopkeepers, without any distinction, I am informed, of religious belief, but guided principally by considerations of tactical safety and geographical propinquity. Having taken from the shop whatever they require for their purposes, they are naturally asked, or have been asked in one case at least that came under my observation: "By what right do you make this requisition?" To which the answer of the leader was: "We make it in the name of the people of Ireland." The shopkeeper said: "Do not take any offence, but I want to make this matter regular, so that I may know hereafter where to go for the liquidation of an account which is now becoming considerable; are you supporters of Mr. Collins or are you supporters of Mr. de Valera?" To which the reply was: "We are supporters of neither. We are supporters of the Irish people, and of the Irish people only." Upon the shopkeeper expressing, in very respectful language, the anxiety he felt as to the lucidity of the replies with a view to ultimate liquidation, the leader replied immediately: "Be under no apprehension. The Irish people, if and when it comes into its own, will never repudiate the debts incurred in the service of its loyal soldiers." Such things as these could, of course, happen only in Ireland. They could happen only at a very exceptional period of Irish history.

The noble and learned Lord says, if there is a Government in Ireland, how is it that these men are allowed to stay there? In the first place, they are there in very considerable numbers; in the second place, they are armed with rifles, bombs and revolvers; and, in the third place, the Provisional Government has not, up to the present, been provided with any artillery at all, and I assure your Lordships, though your Lordships need no assurance on that point from me, that the prospect of expelling a considerable number of resolute men, well armed, from a building which is fairly strong and which can be loop-holed, through the military representatives of a Government which possesses no artillery, is by no means an inconsiderable military undertaking.

The true position seems to be—and this again is paradoxical—that the actual, nominal Government in Ireland, the Provisional Government, instead of estranging, as every other Government in Ireland always has succeeded in estranging, the support of voters, citizens and electors, is materially, so far as one can judge, acquiring that degree of support which comes from the sympathy which is given as a rule not to Governments but to Oppositions, of whom it is felt that they are not exactly getting their chance. The view is becoming more and more spread in Ireland that, owing to the illicit and sporadic violence which is being displayed by these gunmen in one part or the other of the country, the Government is not being given that opportunity, that fair chance, which even in Ireland seems here And there to command the support of the people, of proving that it can carry out its functions.

I have no doubt at all that the principal cause of the undoubted and grave mischiefs which the noble and learned Lord has described, and of which most of us are aware, was the most disastrous resolution on the part of the Provisional Government, taken, not indeed without consultation with this Government, but against our earnest and most strong advice, the resolution in favour of the policy of postponing the Elections in Ireland. That, I have no doubt, is the principal explanation and cause of all those mischiefs which we observe around us to-day. It is a dangerous thing in matters of this kind to make prophecies. I am very cautious, and, as I take leave to say, I have been throughout cautious in the predictions which I made in this matter. I prefer not to put it in the form of prophecy, but we are assured—I do not know whether the information of the noble and learned Lord is in the same sense—by those who appear to us most highly qualified to form an opinion on behalf of almost every section of Irish thought that it is certain that the Provisional Government will obtain a large, and perhaps an overwhelming, majority in the forthcoming Elections.

On that point it is objected, if I understand the noble and learned Lord aright: "But what value will an Election taken in these circumstances possess?" If it be true that the Provisional Government is at this moment so weak that it is subject to the depredations and cannot control the illegal violence of these various military sections in all parts of the South of Ireland, and if it be none the less true that they will succeed at the polls, be it observed that the necessary inference is not that the Elections are not freely held, not that the Elections do not supply a most significant illustration of the true feeling of Ireland, but that the weaker the Government in the exercise and the possession of military force, the more striking will the tribute be to the reality of Irish opinion if the result be as is anticipated.

Had the Elections taken place when they were contemplated by all the Parties who negotiated this Treaty that they should take place, what would have been the result, if this hypothesis is well founded? The result would have been that an overwhelming majority of the population of Southern Ireland would have agreed with the expressed opinion of both Houses of Parliament here that we had in the Articles of the Treaty a basis of a settlement which might be acceptable, and which might provide the hope of a permanent peace between the two countries. We are asked to see in that which is taking place in Ireland, to-day, unhappy as it admittedly is, a reason for tearing up, or for despairing of, all that has been done in the interim, although, as far as I know, no one seriously disputes that those proposals have received in that interval the support which I have indicated, and although, as I most profoundly believe, those proposals as a settlement would still command the support of the majority of electors of Ireland, and the support of an overwhelming majority of the electors of Great Britain.

What is the alternative to allowing this Government, until the moment when it is armed with real powers, to endeavour to correct the state of affairs which exists to-day in Ireland? I detected in the speech of the noble and learned Lord not much appreciation of the real difficulties in which the Provisional Government has been placed. In the interval before they are I armed with the moral support which comes from the expressed opinion of the constituencies, they have been faced by almost every conceivable disadvantage in the task to which they have addressed themselves. They did not anticipate, and we did not anticipate, the determined opposition to these. proposals which would be made by Mr. de Valera. They did not anticipate, and we did not anticipate, that the debates in Dail Eireann would be either so long protracted or so evenly divided. And I may say, in passing, that in the circumstance that even from those proposals which were made to the Irish representatives so large a section of the Irish people dissented, on the ground that these proposals did not go far enough, may perhaps be found a partial answer to those who complain so frequently and so loudly in this House that our overtures were not made to them at an earlier stage. My Lords, I am informed, and I cannot for obvious reasons speak more definitely, that after preparation and in the near future there will be a resolute and organised attempt to assert the force of authority more closely and more sternly than has hitherto been found possible by the Provisional Government in Ireland.

We have, until the Election takes place, only two alternatives before us. The first alternative is that we shall turn round to the Provisional Government in Ireland and, before them and before the whole world, say: "Having regard to that which has happened and that which is happening, and basing ourselves upon that as a justification, we tear up the instrument that we signed and we bring back the British garrison to reinforce the 10,000 troops or more which we have kept in Ireland." That is one alternative. Its dangers, its disadvantages, its necessarily tragic consequences, do not need elaboration on my part. Its adoption would rejoice the heart of every enemy which this country possesses in every part of the world. The other alternative, and the only other alternative, is to respect the spirit and the letter of the Treaty to which we set out hands, until the result of the Irish Election, and that which follows upon the Irish Election, make it plain whether the other side to the contract are able, not for a fleeting period of a few weeks but for a period sufficient to supply an adequate proof of permanent good faith, to discharge their part of the contract as fully and as loyally as we have attempted, and are endeavouring, to carry out our part.

I have made no attempt, to-day, to depict the situation in a rosy aspect. Ireland is passing through a period to, which you can hardly discover an analogous period in any stage of her constitutional development or retrogression, according to the point of view, which history affords us, and having regard to the nature of the transition it was necessary that you should have in power, for a period which we hoped would be short but which, through no fault of ours, has proved inordinately long, a Government which was a Government and yet not a Government, which had ostensibly the responsibility of governing without many of the most vital powers upon which the functioning of government depends. We should be flinging away what hope there is of the substance for all that is certain of the shadow, if we impatiently and petulantly surrendered the task to which we have set our hand.

The noble and learned Lord has said that these refugees in Ireland are entitled to a lead from the Government and to advice from the Government. That is true. All British subjects who are suffering in Ireland, whether they be suffering in Belfast or whether they be suffering in the South, are equally entitled to the consideration of the British Government, and to the best advice that can be given to them. The noble and learned Lord spoke with disapproval of a sentence which I should have thought not an unreasonable one, which fell from my colleague, the Lord Privy Seal, in another place, not long ago, in which my right hon. friend said that while arrangements were in contemplation under which a sum of money would be set aside to provide for the necessities and dangers of those who were refugees from Ireland in the circumstances indicated and described by the noble and learned Lord, it was not desirable, if it could be avoided, that there should be a general exodus, from Ireland.

What is proposed is that in cases where there is danger of the kind indicated by the noble and learned Lord, on proof of such circumstances a fund shall be made available for the relief of the necessities of those persons who establish the reality of their cases before a Committee appointed to hear and report upon such matters. How large the fund provided will ultimately be it is not, of course, at this stage possible to say, but a considerable appropriation in the first place has been arranged for, and it is, of course, extremely desirable that all those who in Ireland are not in positive danger should make every effort to stay until the new system is in operation. I presume to offer to no man the advice that he should stay when he is exposed to dangers to which I myself am not exposed. The noble and learned Lord has spoken in language in no way too strong of the difficulties and the misfortune of those who cannot leave their property—I think it was Lord Donoughmore, on an earlier Question, who insisted upon this point of view—and are therefore confronted with the alternatives of risk to life or person or the abandonment of everything that they possess in the world.

There is in our view a clear obligation, and there will be a clear obligation upon the Government of Ireland, as and when established as the result of the Election, to make compensation in all those cases, because the true fact is that these acts of illegal violence are not in the main being done (I think the noble and learned Lord in his speech recognised this) either by the forces of Mr. Collins or by the forces of Mr. de Valera. In some cases, of course, they are done by the forces of Mr. de Valera, but they are being done in the main over all parts of Ireland where the authority of the central power at this moment does not extend, by gangs of violent scoundrels, who have obtained uniforms and who are seizing every opportunity either of pursuing private vendettas or of gratifying the mere vulgar predatory appetite. It is undoubtedly the function of the Irish Government, if and when formed, to pay such compensation as may be required to meet such cases. I have no doubt at all that this Government, in the elaborate taking of accounts which is contemplated in the Treaty as inevitable between the two communities, will hold such an Irish Government strictly accountable in relation to these matters.

It must not be taken, however, if for any reason (and I prefer not to enter upon the alternative conceivable reasons), this reasonable expectation is not made good, that I exclude the reasonableness and the force of the contention that citizens who can prove that they have lost property or their possessions in these circumstances, and, having regard to the general dis- solution of authority in the country, can receive assistance and compensation from no other source—if, I say, they can establish this (and such is the melancholy teaching of the next few months), I do not, of course, exclude the reasonableness of an expectation that they should receive help from those in this country who have undertaken their responsibility in this matter.

I have not attempted, so far as I know, to deny one single circumstance in the account which the noble and learned Lord has given. From the nature of the case many of those incidents are not specifically known to me, but, on the other hand, other incidents comparable to them are, and I have no reason at all for suspecting the entire reliability of the account given by the noble and learned Lord. And all I have to say in reply to the indictment, the gloomy and founded indictment, which the noble and learned Lord has brought, is this. There never was a period of more difficult transition, there never was a Government addressing itself to a task so formidable with less adequate means, and nothing can give them the authority which they most urgently require, except the sanction and the imprimatur of the Irish people, as conveyed at the Elections. If and when that sanction is so given, it will be for those who receive it—and I indulge the hope that they will receive it, and will receive an emphatic expression of it—if they have not done so already, to vindicate the confidence which has been placed both in their resolution and in their good faith. I have only this to add, that I have reason to suppose that, even before that Election takes place, there will be a concerted and organised attempt on the part of the Provisional Government to deal with some of the graver mischiefs to which such powerful reference has been made to-day.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

My Lords, I feel I owe the House an apology for not having followed the noble and learned Lord on the back bench, and for having deprived the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack of the privilege of saying the last word in this discussion. But I thought, in the interests of the debate, it was most desirable that the House should be made aware of the view of His Majesty's Government upon the tremendous case made by my noble friend, Lord Carson. I therefore waited in the hope that we should obtain something from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack which would be of use and. guidance to us in this discussion. And I am not sorry that I waited, because it seemed to me at the close of his speech, when the noble and learned Viscount came to deal with the question of compensation, that he went a good deal further than his colleagues have done when treating this part of the question. I will come to that in a moment.

But the noble and learned Lord left the case of my noble friend, Lord Carson, quite unshaken. He indicated the immense complication and difficulty of the Irish problem. He showed how slender were the military resources which the Government has at its command. He reminded us that in Ireland both sides were a good deal to blame, which is, I think, perfectly true, and he spoke of the nasty habit which Irishmen have of carrying about revolvers even when they go to public meetings, and on other occasions. But the noble and learned Lord did not give us any hint as to the possibility of finding a way out of the present terrible position in Ireland. There is no question, I am afraid, as to the facts. Nor, I am afraid, is there any question as to the extent to which His Majesty's Government have abdicated their responsibility in the matter.

As to the facts, I am not going to follow the noble and learned Lord in his most depressing recapitulation of them. I do not think it is contested that at this moment, throughout a great part of Ireland, brigandage, naked and unashamed, is rampant. I do not think it is contested that intimidation is, I will not say universal but general; intimidation, remember, followed by the threat of murder, a threat not infrequently exercised in the most horrible circumstances. There are cases of kidnapping which have not been disputed. Religious persecution is going on apace. Industrious farmers are being ousted from their holdings and are liable to have their cattle driven off—farmers to whom, remember, the Government of this country have solemnly by Act of Parliament given fixity of tenure. What becomes of your fixity of tenure when you are liable to be hunted off your farm by the miscreants of the neighbourhood? Then it is not disputed that there is a very general repudiation of contracts or that in many cases the documents necessary to enforce those contracts have been seized and made away with—a very serious symptom. In a great part of Ireland the Courts of Law are not functioning at all, and whit is, perhaps, the most serious thing of all is that, owing to changes which have lately been made in the Irish administration, His Majesty's Government are wholly without secret and private information as to what is proceeding in different parts of the country.

I am afraid that it may be thought that my strong feelings on this subject have led me to exaggerate, but I should like to read half a dozen lines from a well-known Irish newspaper, the Irish Independent, which is, I believe, a paper of Nationalist tendencies and in sympathy with the Irish Free State. This is what the Irish Independent said two or three days ago:— Business throughout the country is dislocated and depressed and, in addition, traders have through organised and wholesale robberies lost enormous sums of money. These robberies have been g dug on fur sons, time, and within the last few clays raids for money or goods have been made in no less than eight counties. From end to end of the land banks have been robbed and the traders are in many places thinking of closing down. All this seems to me—I am afraid I must say it—the penalty which we are paying for the disastrous precipitation with which we broke up the machinery of the Irish administration before we had any reason for supposing that there was any other machinery to put in its place.

I do not think anyone will be surprised that in those circumstances a very bitter cry should rise from the people who are suffering under this tyranny in Ireland. We are told—it is the old prescription—that we must have patience. How lone is that patience to last? I think it has been on the whole exemplary, but I understand that it must last longer still. Can we be surprised if some of these unfortunate people are becoming impatient? Can we be surprised if they ask how it can be that this great country, which has throughout its history fought the battle of freedom at home and abroad, can now allow a part of what was the United Kingdom to be placed under the terrible tyranny which has been described to us this evening? The people who are suffering so much are naturally asking to whom they are to turn for redress. I am afraid that, particularly within the last few days, His Majesty's Government have informed them with great candour that it is of no use to turn to them. There has been a solemn abdication of responsibility for the maintenance of law and order in Ireland by His Majesty's Government. This complete repudiation seems to me to be something new. I do not think we have ever had it in so complete and cynical a form as during the last few days.

NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

During the early days when we were discussing the Treaty the language held by Ministers went to show that the safety of the minority in Ireland would be put in the first rank amongst the stipulations which we were to make in coming to terms with the other side. One cannot help thinking at a moment like this of the famous note which has lately been issued at Genoa, and which has attracted so much attention, and particularly of the clause in which His Majesty's Government and other Powers insist that foreigners are to be allowed to live and trade in security in Bolshevist Russia. We are, I am afraid, creating a new kind of domestic foreigner in Ireland who is not to be given even the chance that the British foreigner is to be given in Russia.

I spoke a moment ago of the discussions which took place when the Treaty was being considered by this House and by Parliament. At that time we were told by the Prime Minister that written assurances had been given to him and his colleagues by the Sinn Fein plenipotentiaries guaranteeing the protection of the Irish minority. The Prime Minister went on to say that there was to be a new Irish Army which was to maintain order and support the civilian forces. A considerable number of new armies are romping about in Ireland at this moment. I do not know whether any of them are supporting the civilian forces, or whether, indeed, there are any civilian forces to support, but I mention that as showing how widely different, were the expectations then held out from the reality with which Lord Carson has brought us face to face this evening. And the most significant sentence of all was, perhaps, that in which the Prime Minister assured the people of this country that he was able to say that the object of the Provisional Government would be to make living in Ireland not only possible for the minority, but as attractive as possible for them. My noble friend, Lord Carson, gave us an idea of what the amenities which are at present offered to residents in Ireland are in order to render residence in that country attractive to them.

Throughout those discussions the impression left upon our minds was that there was a general atmosphere of good will and close understanding between the Irish leaders and our Government, and that His Majesty's Government were holding a kind of watching brief and would make it their business to see that those expectations were made good. But, to my mind, nothing has been more noticeable than the steady weakening of the language held upon this point by Ministers. We now have the naked avowal that His Majesty's Government have parted with all control over the administration of the country. All they can screw up their courage to do is, when any particularly heinous incident is brought to their attention, to promise that they will bring the matter to the notice of the Provisional Government, and will urge them to give protection to persons attacked. The question we have a right to ask is: "Supposing the Provisional Government will not give the protection, or, what is much more probable, supposing the Provisional Government cannot give the protection, what is to happen then?" I dwell upon that point because I am not at all anxious to make any personal charge against Mr. Collins or Mr. Griffith. I believe that they would probably be very glad indeed if they were able to bring about a better and more orderly condition of things.

But can they do it? I believe they are every whit as helpless as His Majesty's Government in the matter. What is their position? They have to hold their own not only against their, so to speak, official opponents—the Party led by Mr. de Valera—but against the forces led by the guerilla leaders whose names are sprung upon us from time to time. Then there is the organisation of the Transport Union in the background, and, what really is worst of all is, they have to face what is undoubtedly taking place, which is a general liberation in Ireland of all those forces of lawlessless and disorder which are, I am afraid, endemic and always latent in that country.

What then is to happen supposing the Provisional Government, fighting against these tremendous odds—and they are tremendous odds—is unable to make good its pledges? That is really the question that interests us. I want to make one thing as clear as I can. I do not ask His Majesty's Government to place us in possession of their plans, either military or political, for dealing with a crisis of this kind should it arrive. They will naturally say that they desire to keep their own counsel, and that they will tell us when the time comes, but I think there is one thing that they might tell us quite explicitly at this stage of the proceedings. Can they not answer the question whether they do or do not intend to wash their hands altogether of those who have suffered under this terrible persecution in Ireland?

I heard with satisfaction the statements of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack to the effect I hat a Committee of some kind was being set up to inquire into the question of compensation, and. I noted that he spoke of the clear obligation on the Government of Ireland to make good the losses sustained by some of these victims. I think he went on to say that His Majesty's Government would hold the Provisional Government responsible if satisfaction was not given. That really carries the case rather further, I think, than it has been carried yet, and I should be very glad if, before this discussion ends, we could be told quite plainly whether it is the policy of His Majesty's Government to require the Provisional Government to deal justly with these claims for redress, and, if the Provisional Government fails in its duty, then, to use the Lord Chancellor's words, to hold them accountable for the omission.

If that is said quite plainly I think it will mark an important advance. Although our power of compensating and making good is very limited, although you cannot bring the dead to life, although you cannot restore the homes which have been devastated, although you cannot make amends for the anguish which has been occasioned to many of these poor people, and for the loss of health, bodily and mental, resulting from this perpetual persecution, you can at any rate do something for those who find their position so bad as to be untenable. You can, as my noble friend, Lord Long, has suggested in the case of the Irish Constabulary, give the sufferers the means of making a fresh start in life somewhere where they will enjoy the rights of citizenship, and the freedom to live and have their being which are, I am afraid, at this moment being denied to them in their own country.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

My Lords, before this debate closes I wish to draw your Lordships' attention to an assumption, to my mind obviously fallacious, running through the whole of the speech of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. I think this debate will live in our memories for many years—a debate in which we have learned to the full the humiliation, in which England has been steeped, and the misery in which all our Irish fellow subjects are plunged who, at any time, were loyal to the. King or fought for the Empire. The speech of the Lord Chancellor amounts, I think, only to this. The Government are hoping to be rescued from the position in which their tremendous gamble has placed them by the result of the Election that is to take place next month in Ireland. The Lord Chancellor has told us that in his opinion the great majority of the voters will vote for the Treaty and the Provisional Government. He may be quite right. But how does he know that they will be allowed to vote? His speech and his hopes are based on the assumption that there will be free election in Ireland. All the signs of the times lead us to suppose that the gunmen will rule supreme at the ballot box. What civil force, or military force, has the Provisional Government to enable it to control the whole country on one day so that every Irishman may give his vote freely and without fear?

Do we not know by the miserable record of past years that there is no nation more subjected to moral intimidation than Ireland. If the atmosphere which Lord Carson has described, which Lord Long has described, which the Lord Chancellor has admitted, continues to prevail, how can you expect these men to take their courage in their hands and vote for the Treaty and the Provisional Government. If the gunmen do rule supreme at the ballot box, and the people of Ireland do not dare to support the Treaty, what then? That is the question which the whole of the electors of Great Britain have now begun to ask. What then? On that subject it will be the duty of the Government to tell us at the earliest possible opportunity how, if all their hopes are destroyed, they are going to rescue Ireland and Great Britain from the terrible condition of humiliation and chaos into which their policy has plunged both countries.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

If the noble Earl had put that question to me before I addressed the House I should have been able to have given him a reply; but I will do so at a future date.